Were HMs that bad? Bear with me. Pokémon rarely get access

HMs were that bad. Especially later in the series. They have gotten better obviously but gen 4 was the worst.
>literally had to change out my team because nothing learned rock climb
>had a level 30 lapras that new 4 HM moves because they were the ones used to navigate caves

>>29011492
They weren't that bad at all in combination with the move deleter. It helped carve out teams since each member would have a role relevant to HM work (or if you wanted to use a bunch of mons you liked that didn't learn HMs, you could use an HM slave).

I liked the puzzles you could do with HMs, namely the boulders being moved into slots. Gen 3 also put them to good use with the Regis.

I think they're being taken out both as an experiment and because 3D doesn't really take advantage of them as well, as evidenced in Gen 6 with the lack of puzzles.

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>>29011618

>Read everything you said
>Now imagine not having to worry about it anymore

Thats what I'm saying

>>29011618
Seriously, fuck Sinnoh.

Especially that part where it had like, 4 rocks in a row for you to use Rock Smash on.

The bad thing about HMs wasn't having to teach them to Pokemon, even though that was annoying. The worst part was not being able to use the team you really wanted to because it's too inconvenient to keep switching out your Surfer/Flyer/Cutter etc.

If SM has truly done away with HMs being required then I'll be happy because I won't have to pick out a Water type to use unless I find one I want to.

>hitting a roadblock and either having to backtrack for several minutes or permanently waste a moveslot on one of your teammates
>you might not even have a pokemon who can learn it so you have to go out and catch a shitmon just to get through a pointless blockade

yes they were that bad

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>only had to use cut ONCE in BW1's main game

>>29011492
Yes. Simply the concept of being forced to learn moves to proceed in the game is antithetical to what Pokémon should be about in my opinion: being able to use whatever Pokémon you want to make your own team and succeed.

Yes. The concept of being forced to use a Pokémon that can learn a certain move is antithetical to what Pokémon is about: being able to build your own team out of whatever you want to succeed.

I'd say so. The concept of being forced to use a Pokémon that can learn a certain goes against what Pokémon is about: being able to build your own team out of whatever you want to succeed.

I would tend to agree. The concept of being forced to use a Pokémon that can learn a certain goes against what Pokémon is about: being able to build your own team out of whatever you want to succeed.

I find myself in agreement. The concept of being forced to use a Pokémon that can learn a certain move is antithetical to what Pokémon is about: being able to build your own team out of whatever you want to succeed.

Of course. The concept of being forced to use a Pokémon that can learn a certain move is antithetical to what Pokémon is about: being able to build your own team out of whatever you want to succ

>>29011492
>The concept of being forced to use a Pokémon that can learn a certain move is antithetical to what Pokémon is about: being able to build your own team out of whatever you want to succeed.

I concur. The concept of being forced to use a Pokémon that can learn a certain move is antithetical to what Pokémon is about: being able to build your own team out of whatever you want to succeed.

They add nothing while limiting your options

Being "not that bad" doesn't mean theres any reason to keep them

The only reason I could see people defending HMs is that they either didn't play or don't remember the absolute cancer that was Sinnoh to traverse.

>>29011683
I lent X to my cousin and upon return noticed he didn't pick up Cut at all.

Not even Rock Smash for that matter, but that was a TM.

>>29012084
That's all well and good, but I would add that the concept of being forced to use a Pokémon that can learn a certain goes against what Pokémon is about: being able to build your own team out of whatever you want to succeed.

I love having three water type hms forcing a water pokemon on every single team

>>29011652
they can easily do puzzles without hms.

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>replay Emerald
>all these fucking hm
I mean, Linoone is a great hm slave with pick up, but it annoys me that I'm one less pokemon to use in my adventure. I also end up making golduck become the water hm slave, ugh

>>29012472
the worst thing about hoenn is needing TWO dedicated hm slaves because of the fucking water hms

I really hate that in hoenn you basically need to force two water pokemon into your team or give up three move slots on one to be able to traverse al the water stuff

>>29011618
>get a bibarel
>it can learn pretty much every hm
>still have 4 or 5 more slots for other pokemon
was this really a problem for you?

>>29012437
Elaborate.....

do you guys really use that many pokemon beyond your starter and maybe one or two other pokemon?

you should have plenty of room for a few hm slaves unless you want to raise six pokemon in tandem

>>29012545
I hate bibarel. So much.

>>29012545
>>29012611
>You can work around it so it's fine
Most people here use a full team of six, I'd like to actually pick what I want rather than having the same hm slave every run

>>29012611
I always struggle to limit my team to just 6. It'd be great to not need a flying or water type on my team for once.

>>29012590
the gyms have tons of puzzles without the need for hms for one.

If you want a rock pushing puzzle they can easily make some kind of box/statue/etc pushing puzzle that the pc can believably push

>>29012611
>using a starter
lmao, some of us like to have a team that we actually use instead of barreling through the game spamming the starters STAB moves.

>>29012545
This is the thing. The games are actually balanced around a team of six. If you are carrying dead weight, exp gets shared between five pokemon and then the game gets easier.

Can someone give an actual reason to keep hms?

>>29012785
muh "it feels better to have your Pokémon assist you"

>>29012752
>exp gets shared between five pokemon
exp gets shared between five pokemon and then the game gets easier

that is definitely not how exp share works lol.

If anything, exp share makes it easier for a team of six.

>>29012803
I presume he means pre gen 6

>>29012802
I prefer when they help me save the world and become the champ, rather then removing bushes so I can grab a great ball

>>29012848
Probably distributed would be a better word.

Gen VI doesn't require HMs other than Surf and Waterfall. And occasionally Strength.

>>29012848
how is exp getting shared between 5 pokemon pre-gen 6 unless you're cycling through your entire team for each pokemon you battle or you have 4 exp shares

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OP here. I guess I underestimated the hate for HMs.

I still don't think they're that bad, even in Sinnoh, since my team's have always naturally gravitated to accommodating every HM. I don't think it's bad to be forced to carry a Water- and Flying-type for Surf and Fly respectively since those are always good mons and those HMs are really good. But HM hate seems to be the majority and they're definitely not without flaw so I'll respect your opinions.

>>29012654
he's such a ballin pokemon though

probably has the best abilities of any hm slave

>>29012921
Cycling plus exp share on weakest not in use

Have you people played pokemon before?

>>29012986
It's not that it's terrible it's that theres no justification

>>29012887
Exactly. The absolute worst part about most hms to me is how the obstacles just don't look dramatic enough for their use. I mean the shrubs and rocks hardly look like they are actually something you can't just climb over or maneuver around.

At least it makes sense that you'd need a pokemon to help you go up a waterfall or fly somewhere, but even then why can't you just use a water type instead of having to teach them to ... swim?

It's just always been very forced.

>>29013004
I have, but I'm not autistic enough to cycle my entire team every time another pokemon is sent out.

>>29013026
Why would you do it every time a pokemon is sent out, I do it every time a pokemon is a couple of levels ahead

Of course mostly just use whats best for the battle

>>29012920
Not to mention those and Fly are actually usable in battle. They knew which ones people would actually want to use.

>>29013064
Fly is tedious as fuck to actually use in battle as your flying stab

Just make them all tms

>>29013097
That would be perfect, especially with the reusable tms we've got now.

Yes, HMs are legitimately terrible. It forces you to have to visit a move deleter to even get rid of the move, you have to sit through a menu and a cutscene every time you encounter something that requires it(Which gets to be horrendous when it comes to surfing on islands), you have to dedicate one or sometimes two slots just to get around which means using Pokemon you probably don't like for the remainder of the game, and even though the moves can be decent at times as seen with something like Surf or Fly, you end up with a wasted slot that now forces you to visit a random NPC if you ever want to get rid of it. Why not just make it an item you can pick up? If you want to make it so it makes you more attached to your Pokemon then why not give them an HM slot that's rewritable and ask you if you want to use the thing for the HM slot or a regular move slot? Hell, why not just let you overwrite it since now we have TM/HM slots in the bag itself?

Look at ORAS for example, I had to go to Serebii and filter things to find what Pokemon actually can learn the HMs so I can wander around without worry, and you need to fill up a Tropius and a Wailord's entire slots so your main group don't suffer, and that means you can only carry around four Pokemon you actually like.

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>>29011492
>I understand getting frustrated that you'll have to use a certain combination of Pokémon since the HMs you need won't be available on every mon regardless.

>But they still weren't THAT bad.

Yes they were. Or at least they became bad over time as we got more Pokemon. With over 700 pokemon now, its annoying having all these options but limiting your team to a certain few just to navigate a region.

HMs were a minor annoyance that reaching peak bullshit in DPPt. Then they realized it was dumb and started cutting back on its necessity from Gen V onwards. Now that we're in full 3D environments and probably 800+ Pokemon, it's time to let go of HMs for good. At least for navigation.