Why do Redfags refuse to accept pic related as the all time great

actually pretty sure brendan/may and lucas/dawn would shit on him considering what they've been through

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>>28733807
Gold/Ethan is my favorite MC, but we all who is the strongest
You know, the kid that beat every champion from gens 1-5, most gym leaders, got either Zekrom/Reshiram from N, and also defeat Red
Oh, and is a movie star than date an idol

>>28733940
>Post-game
>Canon
Lol

>>28733807
>Not Hilbert
automatically discarded

Red gets special treatment from the fans by virtue of the fact that he's the only protag to appear as their own person. Everyone else is purely an extension of the player.

IE: this post >>28733940

Since Nate hasn't appeared outside of player control, I write off his accomplishments as my own, not his.

>>28733975
>Gold never leave Jhoto
>Brendan never meet Rayquaza
>Battle Frontier was never visited
No thanks

>>28733975
>dating the movie person
>being movie star
>post-game

>>28733807
Red:
-Became the Indigo League Champion
-Completed the Kanto Pokédex
-Stopped Team Rocket in each time he encounter them
-Went to Sevii Islands to complete the Battle Hill challenge (FR/LG only)

Gold/Ethan:
-Became the Indigo League Champion and challenged 16 Gym Leaders instead of 8
-Completed the Johto Pokédex (which was an updated Pokédex from both Kanto and Johto)
-Stopped a new portion of Team Rocket
-Met Arceus, the god of the Pokémon universe (HG/SS only)
-Possibly defeated Red in Mt. Silver

How can Red compete?

>>28733975
By that mindset it isn't canon that Gold/Ethan fought Red

>>28734682
>-Met Arceus, the god of the Pokémon universe (HG/SS only)

Non-canon. Also we have no proof Gold canonically completed the Pokedex up to that point where as Red at least did it in Origins and the end implied he was continuing his hunt.

>>28733975

>things that happen in the game aren't canon because i don't like it

>>28736421

>in-game event is non-canon
>references anime shit as canon

>>28736493
Anon, events and anime references are both non canon.

>>28733940
You know you can beat the PWT without facing every gym leader and champ right?

>>28734682
>-Stopped a new portion of Team Rocket
To be fair that faction was considerably weaker than when it was being lead by Giovanni. Notice how directionless they are in the game.

>>28736521

>events

According to who?

>>28736521

That isn't true at all. Canon in video games is generally viewed as 100% completion of the game. It's why side quests are often referenced in later games.

Gold canonically cleared the game. As did all other protagonists.

>>28736421
>>28736521
Sinnoh has to be canon though. It specifically adds Kore to the Pokemon universe.

Same with the Celebi event. We have to assume its canon because that's what gave us the information that Silver is Giovanni's son.

You can judge the canon-ness of an event based on how important it is to lore.

So Arceus Event= canon
Ethan/Lyra having Arceus at the time and getting at most two members of the creation trio=canon
Hoops Rings existing=canon
Brendan/May catching all the legendaries=non-canon

tldr

The fact that the developers make an event help us understand the Pokemon world more means we have to treat that event as true

>>28734682
Red has also met Lugia, Regigigas, and Zygarde according to Generations.

>>28736611
Chant "Sinnoh" with "Arceus Event"

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>>28736623
>>>>>>>>>>>>>anime

>>28736629
*change

>>28736548
The fact that they don't occur within the main game.

>>28736584
>Canon in video games is generally viewed as 100% completion of the game.
That has never been the case in any video game series seeing as to achieve 100% completion you often have to do either replays or things that contradict the main story.

>It's why side quests are often referenced in later games.
Such as?

>Gold canonically cleared the game.
Clearing the game falling under "completing the league and defeating the team" with the exception of ORAS as DE is directly related to the story.

>>28736611
>You can judge the canon-ness of an event based on how important it is to lore.
The problem there is proving the actual event canonically happened. It very well may line up with the lore but without concrete evidence of it occurring then it's non-canon.
Especially the fact that Ethan and Lyra would have had to have magically obtained the God of the Pokemon universe.

>So Arceus Event= canon
>Ethan/Lyra having Arceus at the time and getting at most two members of the creation trio=canon
>Hoops Rings existing=canon
>Brendan/May catching all the legendaries=non-canon
Your logic doesn't line up, what exactly makes Arceus more canon than the rings?
According to you seeing as the rings have some established lore with Hoopa that makes them canon however you're saying they're not.
By that same reasoning the Arceus event is non canon.

So which one is it? Canon or non-canon?

>>28736611
Adding lore doesn't necessarily make it canon, especially when there was absolutely no point in the game where Ethan/Lyra could have met Arceus, let alone captured it. It adds to the background of the universe, but that doesn't mean those events happened in canon. It's like how in video games you have loads of multiple endings but not all of them are canon.

>>28736611
>thinking Ethan/Lyra caught Arceus
I'll bite, when did they catch it? Where is the canon series of events that they did.

>>28736687
Having an Arceus is necessary for the event to occour, and the event helps us understand the Pokemon universe more. Canon

Catching all the legendaries in Hoopa's rights does not do anything, and so there is no reason to believe it actually happened.

To take it further, if we say the Arceus event isn't canon, we have to ignore the Unown connection to Arceus the fact that Sinjoh exists, the relationship between Johto and Sinnoh, Mythri Stage and how Arceus supposedly made everything from there. Also Cynthia ever being in Johto. Because that info is only given to us through that event.

If we ignore the Celebi event, then we have no proof that Silver is Giovanni's son, because it was only every explicitly stated there. And Ethan/Lyra convincing Giovanni to not go back to Rocket didn't happen. This is a tonne of info given to us that we should just ignore as not real.

If we ignore Brendan/May catching the legendaries, nothing changes

So that is why the events aren't comparable.

>>28736743
They didn't have to catch it, it could have just decided to travel with them. Who knows?

The idea isn't to say an event didn't happen because it doesn't make sense, if we saw it happen.

>>28736734
I do understand what you mean with this, though I don't really think that applies to these games. I'd say the alternate ending stuff is closer to the generic legendary catching

>>28736687
About the sidequests thing, Jasmine says she wants to travel to Sinnoh in the HGSS post game, and we see her in Sinnoh in Platinum

The post game areas in BW became in-gane areas in BW2 as well

>>28733940
too bad he's worst designed trainer next to ORAS Brendan

>>28736917

She was in Sinnoh in DP and that was before HGSS came out.

>>28736954
Its still post game info matching up with in game info

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>people arguing over their own completely arbitrary definitions of what constitutes "canon" based entirely on what they want to be true

>>28736998
Have you never seen a single fandom discuss lore before? We can't all have as much info to work with as the Zelda guys you know

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>>28733807
>He actually thinks Gold is important enough to trigger someone

>>28736788
>Having an Arceus is necessary for the event to occour
But the problem is how did they get the Arceus in the first place.

>Catching all the legendaries in Hoopa's rights does not do anything
Nor does the Arceus event, if you want to be technical it goes directly against the lore as it created a second copy of one of the God Pokemon. Unless you want to take it as the initial creation of it in a sort of causual loop where time was actually created on that day and it was sent back some time in the future but to that you could say where are the other two legends and that only accounts for Dialga seeing as the other two don't have abilities over time.

>and so there is no reason to believe it actually happened.
Except for the holes it presents.

>we have to ignore the Unown connection to Arceus the fact that Sinjoh exists, the relationship between Johto and Sinnoh, Mythri Stage and how Arceus supposedly made everything from there. Also Cynthia ever being in Johto. Because that info is only given to us through that event.
That's kind of what non-canon implies.
That said until HG/SS there was never a connection between Arceus and the Unown and there hasn't been an implied one since so that's entirely self contained in HG/SS. The closest you can get is the Solaceon ruins in Sinnoh and even then the text on the wall doesn't imply a connection either.

>If we ignore the Celebi event, then we have no proof that Silver is Giovanni's son
Fame Checker FRLG. It's post game but take it as you will. However it does confirm that Silver being Giovanni's son was a thing long before HG/SS came along.

> And Ethan/Lyra convincing Giovanni to not go back to Rocket didn't happen.
The problem there is that it relies on them actually having Celebi just like it does for Arceus. Again you would have to prove when and how they caught Celebi for that to be canon.

>If we ignore Brendan/May catching the legendaries, nothing changes
Except for the tear in space time disappearing.

>>28737102
There isn't any news to prove gaps in information. Not knowing how something happened doesn't mean it didn't.

Like I said, maybe Arceus decided to travel with a human? We have seen legendaries choose trainers to travel with before. And with Arceus/Celebi, it doesn't even have to be permanent. The idea is, we don't know.

The holes are a thing, but its not like say, the jokes were causing some issue that anyone in the region made any comment on at all. GF wasn't trying to make us understand the Poke-world more by us catching them. Its like the Lati@s event in HGSS. The setup happened, but catching the Pokemon doesn't really do...anything.

>>28737102
>>28737193
Bear in mind I'm not saying you HAVE to believe this, in just explaining my logic as to why I take some events/postgame as canon

>>28734692
wait dont the credits only roll after beating red in gen 2 ?
I didn't play so long I don't remember.

>>28737274
They roll after becoming the champion as well

>>28737193
>Like I said, maybe Arceus decided to travel with a human?
You'd still have to tell us why it would, as well as why it would pick Ethan/Lyra specifically. Logically they would pick someone who has more of an inclination towards the god Pokemon so that would make Lucas/Dawn a better choice seeing as they staved off the God Pokemon themselves.

>The idea is, we don't know.
Which is where the problem lies. What proves that these events are canon?

And to top it off why does the creator god of Pokemon have to rely on human ruins to create one of the God Pokemon?

>The setup happened, but catching the Pokemon doesn't really do...anything.
You do realise that logic works against you right?
The events you've said don't exactly affect the Pokemon world in any way if you choose to do them or not. They're completely self contained only affecting what's directly related to said event.
Nor are they mentioned in subsequent games by characters that were there to experience them.

So what exactly do you have that even hints at the events being canon?

>>28737220
That's the thing. I won't believe it ever.
But I'd still like to know how one would come to such a conclusion and see their side of things.

For you to believe it's canon you would have to have some kind of solid piece that confirms something.

>>28737359
No, Dawn/Lucas never meets Arceus, do they? And since the event implies Sonnoh and Johto are connected, there's no reason it wouldnt check there too. And Ho-oh, Lugia and Suicune already found them worthy, so they have a rep.

>Which is where the problem lies
Why? We dont need to know every detail. As far as GF is concerned, how they got them isnt important. But we have seen several instances of super powerful legendaries deciding to go with trainers. Brendan/May got to chill with Lati@s and Mega Fug, just by being chosen. Hilbert/Hilda have one of the Gen V Dragons. There is precedent of it happening.

>The events you've said don't exactly affect the Pokemon world in any way
They give us new information of the world I mean. Whether or not you caught or fainted Lati@s after Steven says it likes you in HGSS doesnt give us any new info.

>>28737514
>Dawn/Lucas never meets Arceus, do they?
Seeing as you're taking events as canon, yes they do through the use of the Azure Flute.
But the problem of how they obtained the flute arises again.

> And Ho-oh, Lugia and Suicune already found them
That essentially makes every protagonist worthy of Arceus. But that still places Ethan/Lyra fairly low on the ladder since it's not confirmed what they actually did that and Ho-oh, Lugia and Suicune aren't particularly strong as legends go. It would still place Lucas/Dawn on the top followed by probably ORAS Brendan/May.

>And since the event implies Sonnoh and Johto are connected
I doubt that seeing as that would have to place Johto in a colder climate similar to Sinnoh but as it stands it's in a fairly warm climate.
Then there the whole geographical issue. Sinnoh would have to be extremely far away from Johto for the land beyond the region's traversable maps to make sense.

>There is precedent of it happening.
You still have to present it actually happening anon. The examples given are canon, we know they've happened because we've either personally seen them or characters have mentioned/shown them in subsequent games. Without evidence you're essentially just saying "It happened because it did okay?"

>They give us new information of the world I mean
And if this information is contradictory?

>Whether or not you caught or fainted Lati@s after Steven says it likes you in HGSS doesnt give us any new info.
Aside from being the reason Steven is in Kanto to begin with as well as elaborating on what the Soul Dew actually is

>>28737790
They arent connected physically. Didnt mean that. But Sinjoh is specifically a place where the Johto and Sinnoh people came together, and it is between the two regions

>Aside from being the reason Steven is in Kanto to begin
Steven is in Kanto because he sees them roaming, and watches you encounter one. He is there whether or not you catch it

> Without evidence you're essentially just saying "It happened because it did okay?"
That isnt proof it happened, that's prrof it's possible. I'm arguing for the likelihood of it happening and giving reasons as to why it is possible. Right now you're pretty much misinterpreting everything

>That essentially makes every protagonist worthy of Arceus
Yes? So?

>Azure Flute.
I have to say I have no idea what that event entails so I cant comment on it

>And if this information is contradictory?
The Delta Episode gives us a different origin for Mega Evolution to what happens in XY, but it's still treated as canon.


>You still have to present it actually happening anon
I'm saying that it's possible based on the Pokemon world. "Them getting the Pokemon" is something there is no definite info for, and my point is it's not needed, but you keep asking for it so I can throw up my arms and go "well dang"

My point is that you can turn to another part of the games to get an example of everything in the Arceus Event to see that nothing in it makes it completely impossible compared to anything else.

Either way, this isnt going anywhere as everything boils down to "but how did they get them"

>>28738085
>But Sinjoh is specifically a place where the Johto and Sinnoh people came together, and it is between the two regions
Fair enough, in any case there's still the issue of why Arceus would require the Mystri Stage at all.

>He is there whether or not you catch it
Originally the point wasn't about whether or not they catch it but how they affect the world anon. Needless to say both the in game event and the 'event' event affect the world in some way.

>Right now you're pretty much misinterpreting everything
Don't take that path anon. You're pretty much invalidating everything you've said thus far by throwing the misinterpretation card into play.

In any case yes there is precedent and it is proof that it can happen but that still doesn't mean that Arceus ever came into contact with Ethan/Lyra at any point in the history of Pokemon.
For example Cynthia's comment at Undella confirms that Lucas/Dawn came into contact with the Giratina. That's sufficient proof that it did happen and wasn't self contained. Black and White also confirms the events of the previous games as a grunt mentions the failure of the previous teams as well as us personally witnessing the events unfold.
However there's nothing that suggests that Arceus came down and chose to travel with Ethan/Lyra on it's own or forcibly.

>Yes? So?
So why would they choose Ethan/Lyra when there's clearly more suitable candidates. Especially ones that have shown their bond with Pokemon like Hilbert/Hilda, Brendan/May and Calem/Serena by not only defeating the Pokemon but by becoming partners with them. Why pick the one that essentially chanced his way into things by being a good samaritan?

>I have to say I have no idea what that event entails so I cant comment on it
To sum it up, Lucas/Dawn play the flute at spear pillar which summons a set of stairs leading up to the Hall of Origin where Arceus awaits to be battled.

the reason red disappears when you beat him is that the world has no planned continuity for gold beating him

it is literally a possibility that doesn't even exist and the world glitches out and just removes red only to put him back later

gold is supposed to lose

prove me wrong

>>28738085
>The Delta Episode gives us a different origin for Mega Evolution to what happens in XY, but it's still treated as canon.
That's because it doesn't contradict anything.
What was said about the evolutionary stones was merely a theory put on the table by Sycamore and not the definite truth. ORAS gave us the rest of the story.

>I'm saying that it's possible based on the Pokemon world.
But that's the thing. You've been saying how it's possible but you haven't been saying how it's canon.
This is how this whole thing started with you or some other anon saying that these events actually happened.

All you've been doing is presenting how they COULD but not why they ARE. Get what I'm saying?

>this isnt going anywhere as everything boils down to "but how did they get them"
That is the make or break question after all.

In any case I'm going to get some sleep for now. This conversation should have really been in the lore thread or something.

>>28738284
My points aren't invalidated because you don't get them. Me saying Sinnoh and Johto are connected lore wise isn't invalidated because you literally thought I meant the regions were touching. I'll take any path

Asking why it would choose them is meaningless since it already does. It not making sense to you doesn't mean it didn't happen. Zinnia orchestrating the entire events of ORAS herself is stupid and makes no sense to me, but it happened.

>>28738352
Yes, I've been saying its completely possible and I think they are, and that you don't have to. Its the whole conversation.

GF wants us to treat the info in the event as true, so I think the entire event has to be as well. All this other stuff was you asking me to prove how its possible for Arceus to choose Ethan. We've come full circle I suppose.

Eh, the lore thread kinda just accepts the Arceus thing now, we spend so much time talking about Johto and Sinnoh.

>>28738427
>Zinnia orchestrating the entire events of ORAS herself is stupid and makes no sense to me
Not him but that's not as farfetch'd as it sounds. I mean, the draconids are closely tied to the events surrounding the trio and Zinnia is the lorekeeper.
A title like that implies being privy to certain information

>>28733975
I guess Red never caught any legendaries then.

>>28738510
I mean, she must have happened to find a group that wanted to summon Groudon/Kyogre despite the public/gym leaders not knowing this, infiltrated them to give them the stone to do so while making them think they got it themselves, and remained undetected for the whole game

>>28738558
>she must have happened to find a group that wanted to summon Groudon/Kyogre
Well if their main goal is to increase the land/sea they must have done some kind of research into it. It was just a matter of infiltrating their ranks and making sure it goes off without a hitch.

>infiltrated them to give them the stone
What stone?
Do you mean the orb or the meteorite?
Because they acquired them on their own.

Every fucking day we have the same retarded canon arguements. Brendan is statistically the strongest. In narrow outlooks of what is canon he at least has mega lati@s which is no joke, and the only trainer that would stand a chance is calem with mega lucario.

In wider outlooks Brendan may have caught Rayquaza abd Deoxys, and has the ability to evolve mega fug.

inb4 someone says a captured Arceus is more powerful than Mega Fug because it is god.

>>28738863
>inb4 someone says a captured Arceus is more powerful than Mega Fug because it is god.
You're more likely to get something like
>the only other protags to catch a legend are the XY protag ad BW protag the rest we don't know if they beat or caught them
I mean it's true but you're still more likely to get that.