Why are stalling and entry hazards considered okay but evasion

>>28226744
People are fuckers

Because evasion is cheating

>>28226744
Evasion is pure luck
And you would buff Stall with Evasion moves, Minimize Cefable/Chansey are annoying as hell

>>28226830

>Evasion is pure luck

Then remove every move that doesn't have 100% accuracy

Stall isn't luck dependant and requires skill to play. You don't wanna lose a game because some noob avoided your focus blast and setup with its shitmon. Go and play AG if you don't believe me

Smogon hates hax and rng.
Simplified; Entry hazards are controlled variable in battle. Evasion is just annoying rng.
If they could remove crits and paralyze idle, they most like would.

>low ladder retards complaining about hazards

>>28226792
>>28226830
What's wrong? Swift and faint attack not good enough?

>>28226927
Being forced to run niche shitty moves just to counter a specific luck based strategy isn't a synonym of a very healthy metagame, anon.

You totally could allow evasion now, though. There's more than enough counters now.

>>28226940
>What are spinners and sound moves

>>28226940
Rapid Spin is a shitty move only used to counter Hazards too.

Using Sure-Hit Attacks would be the response to the use of evasion. That's simple. The game uses a lot of luck already. If Paralyze is ok to them, Evasion should be too.

>>28226940
>What is Rapid Spin

>>28226976
Problem is those moves have terribly low BP, so you'd need something that can boost its power, and even then you now have a move that has no utility whatsoever against a team that doesn't abuse evasion, and a wasted moveslot. That's at least as centralizing as hazards, which I do agree are pretty fucking centralizing and could use a nerf, but at least they aren't luck based

>>28226744

Because evasion is a luck-based element, which Smogon aims to reduce. The other factors you mentioned are certainties.

if sure-hit attacks weren't bp60 then maybe they'd be viable

otherwise have a lot of fun fighting some shit like a double team eviolite dusclops who burns you and will pain split any actual damage you do away

>>28226845
>Then remove every move that doesn't have 100% accuracy

Trust me, Smogon wishes they could.

>>28227089
Rapid spin would be viable too if it had more than 20BP

>>28226845

Using moves that have less than perfect accuracy is a decission made by you and you choose to play that RNG game when you equip those moves blah blah blah

It's literally the same fucking arguments from you retards every single fucking time, but you never listen, you never learn. You're not even going to respond to me. You're just going to make another fucking "WAHHH WAHHH WHY WON'T SMOGON PLAY HOW I LIKE!" thread next week

Evasion's banned because it's not fun to play against at all. You can try to play against anything else, stall, sweepers, setup sweepers, even every single other thing that's banned. Even if you lose you've got feedback, you're putting up a fight. You see their health going down now and then and what they do changes from turn to turn. Evasion, the same move plays out over and over, you never hit. It's boring.

I've beat and lost to evasion teams before and they're just not fun to play against even when I'm really satisfied that I made someone with minimize blissey on randoms rage quit.

>>28227123
Well Rapid Spin does its job, which is removing hazards. Those perfect accuracy moves couldn't do shit if the pokémon you use can't boost, and even then if the eva booster is even remotely bulky you might still be fucked.

>>28227142
And the sure hit moves, with x3 power of rs, do the job of fighting against evasion.

>>28227132
You not having an evasion counter is a decision made by you.

Evasion is an RNG shitfest. Stall is at least consistent.

>>28227176
>do the job of fighting against evasion.

No they don't. Because any decently bulky Pokemon can just tank it and KO you while you're spamming your shitty 60BP attack or they can just heal it off with a recovery move.

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Ok you faglords, wouldn't it be fair if GameFreak took evasion off of most Pokemon, especially those that could abuse it, but left on certain Pokemon that were relatively weak? I'm thinking Ledian level low since what else are those bug Pokemon suppose to do.

It would still be the most powerful on Ninjask.

>>28227177

Even if you did have an evasion counter, that would still be the opponent pulling you into their coin flipping game. As soon as your evasion counter dies, it's just heads and tails.

You choosing a move with lower accuracy is you yourself engaging in your own probability game

>>28227140

Agreed, Evasion should be tweaked in Gen 7. It's not a bad concept but it is not fun to play against at all.

>>28227236
Then have 2 counters ;:^)

>>28227230

It probably wouldn't be banned if it had a shitty distribution. Accupressure has a shitty distribution but it isn't banned despite being a luck move. If a chansey had accupressure it would probably be tested.

Same thing with serene grace flinch hax. If more than 3 pokemon had it, then it would probably be banned. However it's easy to counter a flinch haxing jirachi, it's not easy to counter 40 pokemon that could potentially have it if it had better distribution.

Playing Pokemon competitively. Eh.

I remember 2 gens ago when people where fucking convinced that magical leaf/aerial ace/swift/etc. was definitely enough to counter evasion.

It's funny that not even those idiots believe in those moves any more and are just convinced that every team should run haze

>>28227315

2.B.A. Master

>>28227315

I'm not a fan of competitive pokemon, but it's still better than evasion spamming, OHKO spamming, hacked shiny legendary spamming retards on battle spot

Is it possible to beat a smogon OU team with an all evasion team?

>all these 100% hit moves are shitty and they are only counter
>what is no guard

You realise stall with minimise would be 100x worse right? I mean at least you can actually hit mega sableye or chansey

>>28227331

Haze is just usually a better option than the above options.

>>28226830
tfw you pop Minimize first turn on Clefable and they d/c.

>>28227356

Probably. You'll probably lose some too. That's the point of luck based strategies, even shitty teams/players will win sometimes if they get enough coin flips

>>28227355

That's true. There is no true where to play Pokemon though.

Battle Spot is full of fags you mentioned above.

Smogon is too elitist and samey.

Pretty much everyone just hacks every single one of their mons as well.

Fuck.

on battlespot doubles you sometimes come across evasion, which generally consists of:
1)eviolite chansey with minimize, toxic, softboiled, filler (usually seismic toss)
2)some sort of janky psych up strat usually with clefable or chandelure

the trick is you just taunt them and beat the fuck out of them

>>28227132

It's no different than evasion shit. In both cases, luck decides the winner.

>>28227132
Evasion increasing moves is no different from moves with secondary effects like Scald having a burn chance or paralyzing your opponent leaving them unable to do anything if theyÄre unlucky. Literally the same fucking thing.

>>28227362
A pretty low distribution ability

>>28227356
You have the chance to. You also have the chance not to. If they're faster and get a hit or two off before your evasion is too high, you'll probably lose. If they miss the first hit or two, you'll probably win.

>>28227132
>>28226830
>>28226940

ITT, Smogon bitches about people not wanting to play how they like.

>>28228076
nobody likes playing against evasion, being a smogonfag has nothing to do with it

Evasion bullshit is even annoying in game. Koga and his Muk are fucking cunts.

>opponent sets up their evasion
>use Topsy Turvy
>all attacks now 100% accurate against them

Get good

>>28226744
It's okay just not on smogon term.
I love evasion and the rage quit.

>>28226744
Japanese player play without those stupid close most of the time, and they don't care about those anti evasion rule anyway. They still win and consider everything part of the game.
Even if Evasion can fuck you up, a great team can't be fucked up that much consistently, and overall the best player always overcome gimmick, so learn to fucking play or play something else.

>>28228538
I should start carrying Topsy Turvy on battle spot.

I was so triggered when someone used Minimize Rest Unaware Clefable against me.

They sent it out as soon as I fainted their ParaSwag Thundurus too.

How is wasting turns fun, even for them?

He was Japanese too.

>>28228538
you're right we should just be forced to run malamar on every fucking team we make

that sounds like fun

kill yourself

>>28228754
just use taunt
some japanese players use a lot of complex strats that get totally fucked by taunt, which is funny

>>28226940
just like how you need to carry toxic on everyone to beat stalling

>>28228928
Of course you don't, that's probably the least efficient way to beat stall.
But give me one (1) reliable counter to evasion spam outside of Haze. Clear Smog isn't even 100% safe because it can miss, and because the evasion spammer is likely to be shit like Klefki

>>28226792
>Utilizing a move with its intended function is cheating

>>28229083
Defog

>>28228602

Japs are overrated. No Japs were in the top 8 of Worlds this year. Se Jun, Wolfe and Ray Rizzo (though he hardly plays anymore) are considered the best players, none of them Jap. The Jap who won last year used bullshit Swagger and got lucky with misses.. SO GOOD!

>>28228928
>Toxic beats stall
>Chansey
>Clefable
>Mega Sableye
>Heal Bell

>>28229083
No Guard

Evasion is entirely luck-based. Allowing it would take away what little skill/strategy there is left in the current meta.

>>28226744
>evasion is bad wrong fun
>paralyze is totally acceptable
smogon is retarded, get over it

>>28229654
They should ban critical hits.

>>28227490
How does that even matter when tournaments consist of maybe 10 mons at most anyway?

>>28226976

sure hits, force switch, haze, and so on.

My friends and I allow minimize, moody bright powder and any ability with evasion. Double team is only allowed if the pokemon learns it by level up. This helps with predictability of who will start evading, it's pretty balanced.

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>>28227331
Haze actually has a use outside of "muh evasion hacks" anyway. It's very useful against setup sweepers when you take it on walls or tanks that can tank a hit of it

>>28226744

Being forced to use garbage accuracy check moves is not fun

>>28227331
Many teams probably should run haze. It can be pretty useful.

>>28227331
Whirlwind is better

>>28227132
>It's literally the same fucking arguments from you retards every single fucking time, but you never listen, you never learn. You're not even going to respond to me. You're just going to make another fucking "WAHHH WAHHH WHY WON'T SMOGON PLAY HOW I LIKE!" thread next week
Why don't you kill yourself if you feel so miserable?

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>>28226976
Okay... good luck beating that minimize eviolite chansey just with swift...

>>28226792
Gr8 b8 m8

>>28226927
Add accuracy raising moves (like hone claws), evasion lowering moves (like sweet scent), evasion reset moves (like odor sleuth) and evasion ignoring abilities (like keen eye) in addition to always hit moves.

Evasion increases have way more counters distributed around way more pokemon than entry hazards, actually.

>>28226927
swift and faint attack are literally not good enough yes, thanks for getting to the bottom of the issue immediately.

>>28227356
The answer to any question along the lines of "can evasion beat x" is "if you get lucky".

>>28226744
Evasion is literally just coin flipping

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>tfw sweeping my friends entire team with nothing but a Dunsparce that knows Double Team/Bite/Body Slam/Roost

overreliance on luck

flinchhax is cool though

>>28226744
Define okay, because stalling is considered acceptable if rude.

It's an easy fix.

If the opponent has increased evasion, never miss moves gain +20bp per increase

>>28226744
Because bitches gonna be bitches and don't want to leave an rng game to rng

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Consider the following:
Those surehit moves now have a secondary ability: adding the same effect as Foresight, Odor Sleuth and so on to the opponent. This means that, on top of it ignoring evasion, it also completely removes the opponent's ability to boost their evasion anymore.
Would DT/Minimize be balanced if things were like this?

>>28229670
The difference is that banning evasion boosters is possible (by simply banning the moves themselves), while banning crits isn't (because every move can crit). Same for low-accuracy moves, but since they're more powerful the lack of accuracy is a balancing factor. Even if they can't remove all RNG from the game, they've removed as much as they can from it without turning the game into something else.
Not that you care since you're just shitposting anyway. Here's your (You).

>>28235129
It would make more sense to just add more Surehit moves of different types for STAB, and give more pokemon moves that prevent increasing Evasion
Maybe even a weather type effect that lasts for 5 turns and removes/prevents increase in evasion

>>28235611
The problem is not the amount of those moves, but their lack of power. 60 BP doesn't mean shit. Either give people a real reason to use them by giving them a new effect, or make them all as strong as Aura Sphere.

>>28235632
>>28235632
Well, if you let someone set up max evasion, its kind of your fault for letting it get that far.

Its not like setting up attack boosts where once they're done they can one shot you. You have the surehit move as a backup for when they've got too much evasion and you can't hit them anymore.

>>28226744
>Why are stalling and entry hazards considered okay
Because you can predict and outplay them reliably.
>but evasion raising moves aren't?
Because you can't predict or outplay RNG, the non-RNG 'solutions' are all dogshit and very rarely are solutions at all. It isn't rocket science, same reason swagger is banned, and moody.

Technically Evasion abilities are still allowed now that weather wars are dead

>>28227089
Priority moves have less than bp60 and they are fucking everywhere.

>>28226744
Stall isn't difficult to deal with as long as you don't play like a complete retard and keep a wallbreaker alive/healthy to punch through or scare out the opponent's Pokémon.

Entry Hazards I'm less sold on being healthy, since you've still got to run substandard moves to play around them (Defog isn't too bad considering it also lowers evasion and removes screens, but Rapid Spin is fucking worthless outside of getting rid of hazards) even if they're not 100% broken. Kinda hoping they get given the Gen VI Weather treatment and get put on a timer eventually.

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Why don't I see any pokemon running evasion moves in battle spot singles?

>>28238070
Are you stupid? Don't play there,they don't have evasion clause, they would spam minimize all day.

>>28238082
I'm playing battle spots single since months and I've never seen one single pokemon use evasion moves except for a gengar once.

>>28236784
Once they set up tje first stage of evasion you shutting them down is luck based. Them getting to +6 might not be from your lack of trying.

>>28238070
Because of how the RNG works its simultaneously incredibly broken and a total waste of time.

>opp uses DT once
>miss all moves
>Use minimize three times
>opp hits every stone edge

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>>28238131
>Once they set up tje first stage of evasion you shutting them down is luck based.
Not if you have at least one pokemon with Keen Eye on your team or any of these moves that reset/lower evasion

>>28226927
Yes

>>28238182
Don't forget No Guard. Also don't forget that Psych Up won't help you hit but will fuck them over as bad as you have been.

Why is Smogon discussion even allowed on /vp/? You don't see people on /sp/ complaining that being allowed to hit the ball with your head is unfair in soccer, or anyone on /ck/ complaining it's unfair for Little Ceasars to sell pizza that's both premade AND (relatively) cheap.

Double-team/Minimize take up a move slot, is shut down by taunt or a variety of status negating moves and abilities, only affect the one pokemon on their team (as opposed to cloistered cobble which affects everything), and only gives a CHANCE of not getting hit. Saying you can't ban crits or paralysis stun because it's part of the game but you CAN ban moves is retarded because moves are a part of the game! If you're so anal that you can't ban crits, then why not illegalize shell armor/battle armor?
Why not run something outside of the biggest pwettiest dragon if you're so scared of evasion? Oh, speaking of which, if you ever used a sand veil garchomp with or without brightpowder you have no fucking right to complain about evasion.

One last thing, one hit K.O. moves are unaffected by accuracy/evasion changes.

>>28238027
They are used to take down a weakened mon. The sure hit moves are used to take down the evasion boosters. Which generally are bulky or have recovery. Thus they are insufficient for their primary function.

>>28227356
Citizen Snips tends to sweep any time it rolls evasion from the get-go, because OU teams just don't bring anything to deal with Evasion.

>>28226860
>Smogon hates rng
Tell that to serene fucking grace air slash.

>>28238182
Haze and Clear Smog are the only two of those that hit through Magic Bounce, and Clear Smog has to actually hit to do anything.

>>28238663
That's hardly even RNG. It's practically a guaranteed flinch.

Just run BrightPowder, I know I do.

It works often

And it feels fucking good.