>"There should be a tier between OU and Ubers" >"Landorus-T

>playing a children's game competitively

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So what are you arguing here?

Genies of healthy meta are objectively bullshit

I agree with the rest of your implications though

>>28031412
These are all incorrect assumptions but /vp/ continues to use them over and over.

>not wanting to use Torrent Greninja in the low tiers

>>28031484
The fucking genies are a joke. They're all so straight forward and easy to deal with if you build your team at all competently.

>>28031376
>There should be a tier between OU and Ubers
So like a BL0?

>>28031376
I got to 1500 using a bunch of shitmons once, this was OU

I think I had Quagsire so that helped

>>28031643
I don't agree

>>28031376
>>"Just ban Protean on Greninja and Speed Boost on Blaziken"
what is wrong with this?

>>28031684
If a BL0 was anything like BL, it would just be a resting place for shit that doesn't get used in Ubers, if it doesn't have a ladder or a way to play it, it would achieve nothing.

>"I got to 1400 using a team with just my favorites"

But this is doable, OU is easy to ladder.

>>28031376
>liking TF2

>>28031784
Are any of the BLs able to function as an actual tier?

>>28031867
Thats the point. Its said as if its an acheivement, when it really isn't

>>28031628
I'd rather use Alomomola.

>>28031910
There just aren't enough critters in either BL to justify a tier for them, but they can usually do somewhat decently in UU/OU (depending on which BL they're in)

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>banned from OU
>not good enough for ubers
It's not fair

>>28031910
I don't think so, maybe what they could do is a XU+ tier which includes the BL bans for that tier. I would like to have a tier where Staraptor play around without needing to compete with Talonflame.

>>28031684
Ubers is BL0 between OU and AG but peoples don't get it

>>28031910

Ubers was actually this.
It sorta become its own tier with Gen 3/4, but it was basically a banlist up until that point.

>>28031765
You tier a Pokemon by its best set. You don't allow it to be played in a lower tier if it has other, shittier sets.

We're not allowing Swarm Scizor or Chlorophyll Whimsicott or Mewtwo without attacks into lower tiers.

>>28032022
I thought AG was created as the banlist for Ubers?

>>28032148
It was, Mega Fug pretty much forced Smogon to make Ubers an official tier so they could justify, rightfully so, banning it.

>>28032096
okay, but what about gothitelle and wobbuffet? they're banned but only with shadow tag

>>28032191
They're not banned. Shadow Tag is banned. You're free to use Competitive/Frisk Gothitelle and Telepathy Wobbuffet any time.

>>28032191
the consensus was that they couldn't deal with stag anymore on anything so the whole ability had to go

wobbuffet was a casualty

>>28032191
Speed Boost and Protean aren't necessarily broken themselves so they need to be banned like Shadow Tag does.

>>28032239
>so they need
so they don't need to be banned

Sorry, it's late, I missed a word.

>still not acknowledging how overcentralizing sneaky pebbles are
literally every team runs this one move but yeah it's not overcentralizing at all

>>28032352
>What is Defog?

>>28031484
The main thing that pisses me off about them is how fucking hideous they are. Jesus christ at least make cool pokemon strong not these shitty anthro-mons with random clouds that are apparently part of their bodies.

>>28032096
MOODY BIDOOF
SHADOW TAG GOTHITELLE
BATON PASS WITH CERTAIN SPECIFIC CONDITIONS

>>28032565
clarify your point

>>28031397
>Against playing a children's game competitively

>>28032649
they're all specific bans that remove the best set for balance...
sure, the first two banned a whole ability, but baton pass is a very specific case...
also, ag exists, so modifying teirs to fit a singular pokemon is not unheard of...
before ag became a thing, ubers wasn't even an official teir...
blaziken and greninja could've both ran their natural abilities without upsetting the metagame at all...
also, the crown beasts have ridiculously specific clauses to be considered legal.
The must have one specific nature, have no other event moves, and be shiny...
sure, it's due to an event, but that's really way more than what they'd have to do with the starters...

Alolan forms are certainly going to be tiered differently, so I don't see why different abilities can't as well

>>28032404
Do you even know what overcentralizing means? It doesn't mean it has no counter, it means that you have to dedicate a team member or moveslot to counter it, or at worst lose, and at best, face a severe disadvantage.

Needing to pack a defogger or spinner only proves that pebbles ARE overcentralizing.

>>28032977
I don't have an issue with pebbles, because otherwise VoltTurn teams would be very overpowered.

Pebbles solves the revolving door issue in singles. But it should not get bonus damage for super effective hits.

Plus, so many fucking pokemon can learn Stealth Rocks that it's not an issue. In fact, it probably makes a ton of pokemon viable that wouldn't be otherwise.

Saying stealth rock is centralizing is like saying that Ice Beam is centralizing.

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>>28032798
>they're all specific bans that remove the best set for balance...
Moody and Shadow Tag would be broken on any Pokemon. Speed Boost is not broken on any Pokemon.

>sure, the first two banned a whole ability, but baton pass is a very specific case...
Baton Pass was literally unbeatable once the opponent had enough boosts. Smogon TRIED less restrictive bans - first limiting it to three, Baton Passers per team, then limiting it to one. Complex bans are only used when they absolutely MUST be used, there was no other way to contain Baton Pass than the speed boost + other boost.

>also, ag exists, so modifying teirs to fit a singular pokemon is not unheard of...
I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

>before ag became a thing, ubers wasn't even an official teir...
Ubers still isn't a tier. It was treated as a tier for the specific purpose of banning Mega Rayquaza, but it is not regulated like any other tier. You're not going to see low usage mons fall to OU because even the shittiest Ubers are too strong for OU. It is still a banlist.


>blaziken and greninja could've both ran their natural abilities without upsetting the metagame at all...
Why favor those two? Just because you like themr? Why not tier Swarm Scizor the same way? Or Arceus? Or Mewtwo?

>also, the crown beasts have ridiculously specific clauses to be considered legal.
>The must have one specific nature, have no other event moves, and be shiny...
>sure, it's due to an event, but that's really way more than what they'd have to do with the starters...
Aura Sphere Raikou is only available in one speific nature because that is the only time it was made available
That is much different than acquiring a female Speed Boost Torchic and breeding it to have whatever you want.

>>28032977
The meta is better with Stealth Rock than without. Smogon had a format where Stealth Rock was banned and it was inundated with Focus Sashes and Dragonites.
You don't HAVE to have hazard control, by the way.

>>28033127
There should be a pokemon ability called "clean sweep" that removes all hazards when that pokemon comes into play. Would use it, even if it looked like a broom and had sub-par stats.

>>28033134
>Why favor those two?
Because as a result of the ban, they are not usable anywhere, even though it was purely their abilities that got them banned. Wasn't Smogon's purpose when creating tiers to allow more viable pokemon, usable within their own tiers? Making a pokemon unusable anywhere kind of defeats the purpose.

>>28033207
Reshiram isn't usable in Ubers. Should we allow Reshiram in OU just because we feel sorry for it?
How about Mega Lucario? Deoxys-N? Landorus-I?

>>28033207
To this day, OU is still considered as Standard Play, once something is banned from OU, they don't really care too much about how it handles itself anymore. While Ubers is technically now a tier, it is still primarily a banlist for OU.

>>28032968
static forms are handled differently, since they can't turn back into the original pokemon. its like how landorus-i is ubers but landorus-t is ou

this will probably be true for alola forms since they have different types, moves and abilities

>>28032968
Because forms are more or less a new pokemon with the same name and basic design as an old one.

>>28033134
>Shadow Tag would be broken on any Pokemon.
That's why Dugtrio is so impossible to deal with, eh?

>>28031376
Your post made me subscribe to Verlisify

>>28033404
>Shadow Tag is the same as Arena Trap

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>>28033404
Do you seriously not know the difference between shadow tag and arena trap

>>28033446
fact is, your """"argument"""" is bullshit because many pokemon would be shit even with those abilities

>>28031376
Playing 6v6 is pathetic anyway. Only way to even do so is make tiers and ban things

>3v3 master race
>Doubles master race
>VGC master race

>>28033404
>>28033468
How moronic can you be? Do you seriously see Shadow Tag as equal to other abilities as Arena Trap and Magnet Pull?

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Whya are 1hko moves even banned? This game has crits, rng hax, and more consistent luck based strategies, so dont give me that luck factor bullshit when it's already in your smogon simulator.

>>28033575
It's a flat 30% chance to just remove something, nothing you can do about it.

It's unnecessary RNG and doesn't add anything to the game in general so why bother dealing with it.

>>28032016
what the fuck are mawile's pants actually just solid in game?

>>28033600
https://youtu.be/WzP_Twd_vSo

To avoid shit like this.

>>28033600
>nothing you can do about it.
sturdy, substitute, focus sash, protect, endure, immunities against each KO move but Sheer Cold

but of course smogonfags can't adapt, as usual

>>28033628
Sorry, >>28033600, meant to reply to >>28033575

>Caring about smogon singles

>>28033600
>It's a flat 30% chance to just remove something, nothing you can do about it.
I thought you were talking about OHKO moves not scald

>>28033134
>it was inundated with Focus Sashes and Dragonites
there are plenty of ways to deal with those other than rocks

>>28033670
>There are people in this very thread who play singles
Just like real life I guess.

>>28033689
yeah by turning a 6v6 into a 5v6 at best because you were forced to sacrifice a pokemon

>>28031643
>"Why can't Smogonfags just adapt?"
you are literally fueling OPs fire here
and besides, I've never seen any genie except for Landorus

>>28033711
Tornadus T

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>>28032798
I came here just to tell you not to type like a faggo

>>28033777
lucky trips, but I've still never seen it while playing
really, the only one I've seen is Land-T with scarf

>>28033175
Now THAT would be centralising. I don't think you thought your complaint through if that's your solution, one mon with a dedicated roll of hazard-remover.

>>28033450
New to comp here, may I ask what the specific difference is? A google search hasn't returned anything.

>>28033175
>>28033823
all hazards should just expire after 5 turns or something

>>28033638
>just commit your team to counter the OHKO move--and the other THREE MOVES it can carry to fuck with that--and also the rest of the ladder's threats! it's easy!
are you retarded or just pretending
also: entry hazards

>>28033825
Arena trap only affects grounded pokemon

>>28033802
Lando T is so easy to play around. Its type weaknesses are really common and easily exploitable and it has no recovery so it get permanently chipped away at with stealth rocks and toxic.

>>28033876
Ah, thank you!

>>28033493
For a second I thought you were talking about TF2, and expected to see 9v9 in the greentext. That was weird.

>>28033863
Or in other words, hazards = destructible weather. I can dig it.

>>28033638
how am i supposed to know who has an ohko move or not

>>28034008
Why not have hazards as something you can interact with and target for attacks like how the battle system works with regard to fighting different pokemon in double/triple battles?

>>28033628
Nothing wrong with this, it's just syall with a twist. All it really does is make more pokemon strategies viable. Absolutely no one on smogon uses those pokemon for example.

>>28034037
Now that's actually original. You could then slide substitute into that category and build up traps and stuff from there. Who says Dark/Steel type hunter with bear traps?

Besides, japs like their whole ninja decoy shit, this will be a great excuse for them to go wild.

>>28033878
Its why moody glalie with sheer cold shouldn't be a banned, its an ICE TYPE weak to everything, shut down by taunt, and is lucked based anyways. Everything in game can be justified, smogon is just the popular opinion and the most vocal but the minority of actual competitive play.

>>28031397
To be fair all sports are children's games

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>>28034026
Easy

On top of my head no google search

>Lapras
>Glalie
>Haxorus
>Gliscor
>Nidoking
>abomasnow
>walrein
>Bisharp
>Rhyperior

Many more, but all i can care to mention.

>>28034092
you mean children can play all sports

i dont think too many people are eager to let their 10 year old drive for f1, but karting is safe

>>28033628
>all these smogonchildren disliking this video
>thinking this shitty game will ever be competitive
Even if Smogon removes a ton of rng reliant things in the game, the game itself is based on rng hence why it won't be competitive.
Until GF redesigns the entire battle system to include an interactive way to trigger crits and other side effects, this game will NEVER be competitive.

>>28034123
that only lets me know who is potentially carrying an ohko move, i wont know who actually has one until i've been KO'd or misplayed beyond redemption

>>28034172
Pokemon is all about unpredictabilty thats what makes it fun, not the oh i already know thos set shit, besides your not royally fucked more like potentially fucked. Which everything Pokemon competitive already is including your simulator.

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>I'm a mod at smogon forums

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>>28031376
>"Stealth Rock is overcentralizing"
Because it is. Some Pokemon are considered less viable because of their weakness to Sneaky Pebbles. Shitton of builds suggest running either Defog or Rapid Spin in order to counter Clever Stones.

Incognito Ores are not broken but they are everywhere in 6v6 battles and shape Smogon meta.

>>28034233
if i want unpredictability, i'll play ag, with friends or battle spot.

>besides your not royally fucked more like potentially fucked
in the context of smogon's ou, yes you are royally fucked

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To be honest, smogon was right to bam things up to gen 4, but since gen 5, there really isnt a need for smogon as so many mechanics have changed frome sleep up two turns,grass moves, sub infiltrator, shadow tag ghost immunity, and etc... smogon is just struggling to stay relevant to the masses.

>>28034266
Being everywhere doesn't mean it's overcentralizing. If there was only 1 Pokemon that could negate rocks, it would be. However, there's numerous ways to deal with rocks, cuck rock setters, and ways to simply power through rocks. Stealth Rocks don't limit your team in any capacity, 4x weak Pokemon are still usable with or without rocks. Talonflame would probably be Uber without SR.

>>28033134
Shadow tag wobbuffet wasn't breaking anything. They literally just banned shadow tag gothitelle, but banned the whole ability to justify it since nobody would miss the other shadow tag mons

>>28034320
i dont think they did a very good job contending with gen 6, but a lot did change in a short period of time with mega evolution and fairies. the box legends were also the closest to being perfect pokemon we've had since arceus and mewtwo

>>28034334
That's true now, but prior to the defog buff rapid spin has such shit distrobution that there might as well have only been 2 Pokemon who could remove them. They still weren't restricted.

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>>28034334
>Talonflame would probably be Uber without SR

>>28034508
But in Gen V they did try a rock free meta, it's not like they have never considered it.

>>28033628
whatever makes the likes of Bastiodon and Glalie more viable is a plus in my book

>>28033673
Underrated post

>>28034718
>I'm okay with allowing gimmicky and obnoxious as shit strategies so long as I can use Pokemon I like

You can use whatever Pokemon you want in competitive Pokemon so long as you teambuild around it to cover its weaknesses.

>>28034334
No it wouldn't. That's a retarded thing to say.

>>28031376
People who say these things should actually tie a noose around their neck imo

Considering after Hoopa got banned and Sab didn't, for a number of months even the worst player could get to 1900 elo with a Sab stall team, I'd say le stall boogeyman is pretty justified.

>>28033802
>I haven't seen Tornadus

Hello 1000 rating!

You forgot one op.

>>28032352
>>28032977
>>28034266
>>28034334

>overcentralizing
Anyone that seriously uses this term in an argument is a fuckwit whos opinion you can discard immediately. Overcentralizing, unlike what >>28032977 thinks doesn't have a meaning. It was a Gen 4 Smogon buzzword that was used to ban Garchomp. It's such a meaningless buzzwork that if you use it in a serious discussion thread you're just going to get your post deleted, and spamming such comments will probably just get you banned. Using it knows you're a sub 1400 elo shitter that has no concept of the game.

Overcentralization is the ultimate scrub word.

>>28035301
This. People who say this are lazy and want the just metagame to revolve around them, instead of actually doing anything to contribute or change the way the game is played. Its like people complaining about OP characters in fighting games.

>>28035301
Well, sadly you'll find a lot of top players using this word. There are a lot of games that revolve around a specific few aspects. To take a past gen example, gen 2 basically revolves around Snorlax. To look at other games, fighting game metas almost always revolve around the top 2 or 3 characters in the game. And nobody argues that they aren't competitive, just because a few key elements dominate the game, they just accept that the skill in the game is knowing a lot about those 2 or 3 characters, pokemon, mechanics, or whatever.

Overcentralising does have a meaning, but the meaning is "The meta has this pokemon at the centre, and I don't like it" rather than containing any deep analysis.

>>28032798
Stop using ellipsis in place of periods you goddamn woman.

>>28035207
The tools to beat stall were always there, and are still there. People just used Hoopa-U as a crutch while it was around because of how easy it was to use.

The real problem is the lack of self-thinking evident in the community. People would rather copy others' sets and copy stall teams than use the stallbreakers that actually exist.

Infernape, Emboar, Togekiss, Mega Heracross, Cloyster, Lando-T, Torn-T, and Thundurus-I can all break stall, among other approaches.

Middling players use copypasta sets. The good players often will use one or two great Pokemon and then build a great, uncommon team around them and still win.

I can't remember who I was watching, it's a shame because he made me change my mind on people who make Pokemon content (I usually despise), but he went and got top ten in like UU, RU, and OU. You can't just do that with copypasta teams. His OU team was a bit less creative than the rest, but I don't think you can be a moron and get top ten in OU with a boring ass team and yet also be able to do so well with creative teams in bottom tiers. Maybe I'm wrong though, since I've been playing Pokemon for so many years but I've never really ever been great at battling.

Yeah, a lot in the meta leaves a lot to be desired- both the official Pokemon meta, the Smogon tiers, whatever. Nobody will ever be able to fucking agree with what is fair or not, and at the end of the day, there are mons that are just, not 'bad', but severely limited in uses. You really have to look at your team as a whole and how it stacks up against the meta. Which won't always be that way. A nice Pokemon you like but just gets wrecked too often this meta may be able to have fun in a few months when S/M come out. That's what I always liked about Pokemon, even through generations that weren't my favourite. None of the old mons left, people still play, so there's still a lot of fun to be had.

>>28034863
That's the type of game pokemon is you dumb piece of shit, no amount of banning can undo this. Smogon can try to damaga control all they want but really people will always find ways to play this way, sneaky pebble, hazard setter, stall, and setup users are just another type of gimmick and obnoxious setup.

>>28035821
You'll notice that most of those pokemon are shit, and some of them don't even break stall at all. Mega Heracross, Torn-T, and a Thundy I set dedicated to stallbreaking can do the job, the other pokemon aren't what you want to be using generally (they're total shit outside of the stall matchup, and possibly not even that great in it), or they are good, but not against stall, like Lando T.

The ease of use of Hoopa-U pales in comparison to how easy and braindead stall is to use.

I've been saying Sableye is a problem for a while now, and every time I do, there seems to be a ton of people who defend Sableye, and say that I'm a scrub if I can't break stall teams.

What I actually do is build from the ground up to beat whatever the most common variant of ladder stall going around is, and I've ditched many a fun team because it can't do that.

Personally I don't care what the meta looks like, and I will always ensure that my laddering teams have a good matchup against common stall, as soon as I start building them.

Stall is commonly accepted now as by far the easiest laddering style, and as being pretty effective too. You can see people get ridiculous ratings with stall teams fairly easily on a regular basis. Hell, just look back at the Hoopa-U suspect ladder, it was dominated by Sab stall teams, and it was pretty clear that people liked them because of ease of use. I even had somebody admit to me that the reason they used stall is because they could watch television and not concentrate on the game, and still achieve reqs pretty comfortably.

Like I said before, I don't care what pokemon are used, and I will always make sure that I can beat stall comfortably when using a ladder team.

However, my one requirement for a good pokemon meta is that it requires skill to play. All this damage control for Sableye is nonsense, because it still doesn't get past the fact that it is possible to pick up a Sab team, be shit at pokemon, play badly, and still pick up wins.

>>28035233
>implying ratings actually change who you fight against
matchmaking is a myth no matter where you go

Is there place I can pick up someone elses meme team and start playing? Random battles become boring and I get too autistic when I have to build my own.

>>28036388
>You'll notice that most of those pokemon are shit, and some of them don't even break stall at all. Mega Heracross, Torn-T, and a Thundy I set dedicated to stallbreaking can do the job, the other pokemon aren't what you want to be using generally (they're total shit outside of the stall matchup, and possibly not even that great in it), or they are good, but not against stall, like Lando T.

The ones I mentioned have the tools to beat conventional stall. If stall adapts to them, I think there are due kudos for the stall player since adapting is what keeps the game not stale. The one that pulls the least weight outside of the stall matchup is Emboar, but it just served as an example to show that if stall really is dominating, you can't say there's nothing to do about it. The others have a good time ripping through balance. The Lando-T set I'm talking about involves Gravity and SD, if you didn't see how it broke stall.

>I've been saying Sableye is a problem for a while now, and every time I do, there seems to be a ton of people who defend Sableye, and say that I'm a scrub if I can't break stall teams.

Mega Sableye isn't a problem. It's fair and a nice asset to even use on balance teams to give mons like Defensive Moltres an opportunity to shine. The real problem is the Chansey line. If Chansey (and Blissey by extension) are banned, stall becomes insanely manageable on the special side. The thing is, people will refuse to ban Chansey under the illusion that it's passive since parameters for banning defensive mons haven't been properly established. The team support Chansey offers in blocking all Special attackers (that hit on the Special side) is pretty game-breaking, considering at least Skarm can be broken on the physical side.

I like battling stall on the ladder because it's a good stress relief, and makes it feel like a real test of my abilities in teambuilding.

>>28036796
Sab is the problem, not Chansey. Not all matchup based stall teams involve Chansey, but they all involve Sab. The ability to seal off general methods of applying pressure such as hazards and taunt is not ok and deducts from skill.

>>28036920
Rethink that. Any stall without the Chansey line can be much more easily broken. Manaphy, Volcarona, Kyu-B, Mega Char-Y, etc just wait on it to get low enough.

Mega Sableye brings a valuable role in being a hazard blocker and spin blocker that isn't fragile for once.

>>28031376
why is smogon always so insecure?
is it because it is losing players lately?

>>28036613
The Smogon RMT forums

>>28032148
>>28032022
>>28031684
BL0 - A banlist for OU but too garbage for Ubers
BL-1 (also known as AG - A banlist for Ubers, so basically, Mega Fug

>>28034092
Purest form of autism.

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>>28036920
This comment ROFL, yet banning these very type of playstyles is ok (1hko, moody, evasion, shadow tag) the hypocrisy is unreal.

>Volcanion is still OU

>>28038607
What do you mean, you think it should be pushed up to Ubers or down below OU?

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>>28033702