What can you tell me about the metagames from the first two generations?

Gen I
Rule of the Psychic kings feat a Bull.

Gen II
Stall - the meta.

>>27996992
Psychic types and stall. Stall unfortunately still lives on, and is worse than before.

>>27996992
Gen 1: Tauros- The Meta, the experience
Gen 2: Stall

You could play with almost any final stage mon and win as long as you had certain things in your movesets/team.

That was cool. Nowadays, something like 90% of pokemon are worthless vendor thrash.

>>27996992
Gen I - Amnesia
Gen 2 - Don't fuckle with shuckle

What makes Tauros OP?

>>27997441
He stronk.

>>27997441
STAB on Hyper Beam and Body Slam, along with good speed, attack, and usable Special to spam 90% acc blizzard.

>>27997441
Combination of high speed, decent power, Normal STAB and ancient crit mechanics.

Gen 2: Snorlax, SkarmBliss

>>27997441
Being good at everything.
Okay Attack Stat. Okay Bulk. Almost optimal Speed Tier. Huge movepool.

Body Slam, Blizzard and Earthquake was able to hit hard everything and if you needed to get a KO Hyper Beam was there to save the day.

Tauros could turn losing battles by his own.

>>27997400
(You)

>>27997312
and Wrapdragon

>>27997503
>Implying the percentage of fillermons isn't at an all time high.
Shit's getting ridiculous.

>>27997604
It gets higher because we keep getting more pokemon, it's objectively always going to be at it's highest. You're fucking dumb.

Gen 1: The Holy Church of Tauros
Gen 2: The Holy Church of Snorlax

>>27996992
1. Normal-types (Tauros, Snorlax, Chansey) and Psychic-types (Alakazam, Starmie, Exeggutor, Jynx, Slowbro) dominate. Cloyster and Lapras have good match-ups against Tauros and Snorlax, freeze is dangerous. Zapdos is potentially threatening, Golem and Rhydon hardwall it and have some use. Gengar is a wild card, being the only fully evolved Ghost-type.

2. Snorlax is overpowered, but somehow not banned, running either Curse or Belly Drum. Leftovers on everything. Battles routinely take a hundred turns or more. Probably the generation where battles depend the most on skill, rather than chance or teambuilding.

>>27997639
Not if you add useful pokemon. Most of the final stage pokemon introduced in gen II were useful and I would dare say that it may be one of the gens who added the least final stage fillermons.

>>27997639
>implying percentage neccessarily increases linearly
No

In Gen I, if you had a Mewtwo and your friend did not then you had already won.

>>27997692
even if 99% of this new gens pokemon are useful and viable fillermon will still be at an all time high

>>27996992
Hyper beam was good in gen 1
Snorlax was OP in gen 2

>>27997755
The integer total of them would increase, but the percentage of them would decrease

>>27997755
If you added this whole gen as useful, the percentage of useless final stage pokemon would go down and wouldn't be at an all time high anymore. Do you even know how percentages work?

>>27997441
No good checks. Fighting types were irrelevant as fuck in Gen I, for a number of reasons. Cloyster was just about the only thing that could check it, and even then it wasn't exactly a reliable option. Frankly just blowing it up on Tauros was a pretty good move.

>no one mentioning slashcat spam

>>27997841
Because it wasn't really good. Persian is the fourth best Normal-type in RBY.

In Gen-1 nobody really knew what they were doing and there weren't any real rules other than "Mewtwo and Mew might be banned". Zapdos was a killer and you needed Golem or Rhydon to deal with it. Tauros, Persian, and Alakazam were all monstrous threats. Jynx was the best Ice type, perfect for killing Dragonites and spamming Psychic. Blizzard everywhere.

Gen-2 sucked, battles took forever because everything was so defensive. Lugia was retardedly OP, almost as broken as Mewtwo, but as a defensive threat instead of offensive. Don't play Gen-2 if you have a life, 150+ turn games will kill your free time.

how would the gen 1 meta change if all the Pokemon were what they are today?

>>27997863
The main reason smogon rates it so low is because their simulators run on gen 1 cart rules, while Stadium rules were standard on early simulators and at tournaments. Tauros is hurt a lot more by the loss of Hyper Beam spam than Persian is.

>>27998301
What were the differences in the rules that Stadium changed?

>>27998380
Hyper Beam requieres charge turn even if you KOed a Pokemon.

Substitute got buffed.

Focus Energy was fixed

>>27998399
Ah, I see. Losing out on the free kill shot that a no-charge hyper beam would offer would be rather a nerf.

>>27997312
This, mostly.

Assuming Mewtwo was banned, Gen 1 was a dance of Alakazam, Tauros, Persian, Dragonite, Snorlax, Starmie, Slowbro, and your choice of Golem or Rhydon. The entire metagame was to paralyze the opponents Alakazam counters (Alakazam, Persian, Snorlax, Starmie, and Slowbro), or else whittle down Tauros, Slowbro, or Snorlax enough to allow the Alakazam sweep. Persian was the assasinator for many of these Alakazam counters, Taurous was the Persian check, and either Golem or Rhydon countered Tauros. Golem was the safer counter with Explosion, but Rhydon had additional utility.

Gen 2 was either stalling at the hands of Curselax, Slowcurse, or the Great Wall of Lugia, as well as the birth of Baton Pass chains, and Misdreavus' only time in the meta ever as the only reliable wallbreaker with Perish Song.

>>27998077
The special split means a lot of pokemon are now specialized or have no offensive options.

>>27998446
You forgot Chansey and Exeggutor. Both are infinitely more useful than Persian.

>>27998077
Gyarados and Gengar would absolutely dominate, since they have received the best mechanic buffs over the years. Dragonite would carry more than Wrap and filler, and Parasect's niche of hardwalling Snorlax and Slowbro would be gone.

>>27996992
The original gen 1 meta was literally 6 Chansey. That was the team that won the first Nintendo event. That's why species clause is a thing. Of course there being only one special stat, Chansey was actually a significant offensive threat as well in gen 1.

After that gen 1 evolved into a rather tight meta where luck was a very big factor, it was all about whether your sweepers could penetrate their walls before they trapped them and you killed them. Chansey was extremely important and almost all teams had one. Psychic types in general were good and their only problem was that they couldn't effectively blow through the sheer bulk of Chansey, Amnesia Slowbro and Snorlax. So a big part of the meta was trying to kill their walls with an explosion, which was why Gengar, the only ghost pokemon, was also a staple despite being psychic weak, because he could absorb explosions. Fast pokemon having higher crit rates also created a huge incentive to use fast sweepers since crits were another way to bypass amnesia users in particular.

Normal type was supreme for physical attackers because hyper beam had the unique property of not having to recharge if it killed something. Tauros was the number one physical sweeper for this reason. Blizzard was 90 acc so ice types were also very strong which gave bulky waters like starmie and slowbro even more utility. Rock types gained a niche in resisting hyper beams, as if it actually hit and did damage and didn't kill, they had to recharge or switch. A common mindgame was whether to use EQ or hyper beam with your Tauros, as if you hyper beam you risk a switch in and explosion from Golem or Gengar, and if you EQ you do less damage to the pokemon in the field.

Meta pokemon:
Chansey, Alakazam, Gengar, Starmie, Snorlax, Tauros, Golem, Rhydon, Slowbro, Cloyster, Exeggcutor, Lapras, Jynx, Zapdos, Jolteon

>>27997795
You don't apparently. The number will still be the same at its best, and if you add only useful pokemon, there's a big chances they'll outclass older pokemon in that niche, unless they fill a very new and unique one. It's not as simple as
>only make good pokemon

>>27998486
This, Chansey is like the second or third best mon in Gen 1. There's no reason to run a team without Chansey.

>>27998446
>Taurous was the Persian check
Under Stadium rules, Tauros was a bad matchup against Persian. They had basically the same damage output, but Persian was faster. Tauros either needed to Hyper Beam it and die immediately afterward, or switch.

>>27998634
The "big four" are actually the three Normal-types and Exeggutor. A standard team runs those four, Alakazam/Starmie and Golem/Rhydon.

>>27998446
>Golem or Rhydon countered Tauros
>TAUROS used EARTHQUAKE

>>27998685
Or worse, Blizzard.

I love how some Gen 1 mons have remained excellent for 20 years, like Slowbro, Gengar, Chansey,Snorlax

>>27998685
>>27998698
Or you know.... Surf.

>>27996992
>DRAGONITE USED AGILITY
>DRAGONITE SPAMMED WRAP

>>27998618
>I don't understand math!
AYY

>>27998716
>Tauros
>Surf
>Gen 1
You are incredibly stupid.

>>27998685
They didn't counter it well, mind, but they were some of the only choices. Golem usually just blew up on it.

>>27998756
Tauros didn't have any counters, that's the point. The closest things were bulky Ice-types.

>>27998685
Golem's main purpose was to switch in on Tauros' Hyper Beam, then explode while it recharged.

Although again, this depends on which gen 1 format you're playing. If Tauros isn't running Hyper Beam, the rock types are significantly less useful.

>>27998719
wrap and firespin were fucking great.

>>27998716
Schrodinger's Tauros could use Surf, sure, but real Tauros had Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Earthquake, and Blizzard.

>>27998446
Jolteon was good for high crits. Cloyster was a great physical wall, and Lapras had some versatility being able to use moves like surf, thunderbolt, Ice beam, confuse ray.

>>27998730
Huh. It's just a gen 2+ thing. My bad

It's not like I've ever taught mine it

>>27998600
I forgot Persian and Wrap Dragonite. Wrap Dragonite was a gimmick desu but Persian was legit, the high speed = high crit rates and having access to slash made it crit all of the time.

Anyways, gen 2 was probably the worst meta in pokemon history. Stall was stronger in gen 2 than in any other gen. I can't even describe it in the same terms as gen 1 because gen 1 was actually interesting.

Gen 2 introduced Skarmory and Blissey. Blissey was hurt by the special split since it and Chansey lost special attack as a result, but the extra bulk made up for it. Curse was also introduced and became a staple of stalling teams usually on Snorlax, Slowbro or sometimes Miltank, which had reliable recovery in milk drink.

The one way you could actually deal with walling was with trapping, which was a new mechanic. Mean Look was introduced and it made Gengar much stronger, as it could now force people to stay in on it, explosions would kill special walls and thunderbolt dealt with Skarmory/Suicune relatively well. Misdrevus could be used to perish song trap as well. But none of this fundamentally undermined stall strats in this gen. A lot of the stuff that was OU in gen 1 remained so in gen 2. A lot of new moves come into the picture which make fighting type less dogshit, alongside the introduction of Dark and Steel which both give better defensive options against psychic types and provide better targets for fighting type moves.

Held items were also introduced which further encouraged stalling, as leftovers was just objectively the best item on everything except Marowak IIRC since it got its thick club this gen. This is where the item clause comes from.

Meta pokemon:
Blissey, Skarmory, Snorlax, Slowbro, Miltank, Rhydon, Steelix, Umbreon, Vaporeon, Suicune, Tyranitar, Starmie, Gengar, Misdrevus, Zapdos, Raikou, Alakazam, Nidoking, Porygon2, Marowak Foretress, Exeggcutor, Cloyster, Machamp and Heracross.

>>27996992
TAUROS

>>27998849
>gen 2 was probably the worst meta in pokemon history

Don't you mean "the best"?

>>27998806
Except not, because this isn't about moveset. Tauros literally couldn't learn Surf in Gen 1.

Another thing was because of the no 510 EV limit, everything was far more bulkier in general which made pokemon do less damage overall since everything is essentially running 252HP/252Def and Spdef

>>27998885
You could teach it Surf in gen 2 and trade it back. So Surf Tauros exists in the gen 1 metagame, but didn't exist back when people actually played it.

>>27998838
>>27998885
You could cheat by teaching Tauros Surf in Gen 2 and trading it to Gen 1.

That's how you could also give Hypno Amnesia, Snorlax Lovely Kiss, Alakazam elemental punches etc.

>>27997441
Crit and Hyper Meme mechanics of Gen I.

Has any Pokémon had as big of a fall from grace than Tauros?

>>27998983
Alakazam also got buttfucked by gen 2

How come stall is still this good nowadays with mega powerhouses running around?

Could Z-Moves help against stall?

>>27998446
Wasn't Exeggutor popular?

>>27998983
Lapras turned into a PU shitmon

>>27999004
Alakazam still did fine, actually. It wasn't nearly as dominant, but it was still one of the premier special sweepers.

>>27998983
No because it's legitimately not possible. It was basically the best mon in Gen 1.

>>27999004
Alakazam has been consistently OU anyway so while it never returned to being the Gen 1 juggernaut it does reasonably well.

>>27999045
The same Persian and Articuno

>>27999030
It was top 4, along with Tauros, Chansey and Snorlax.

>>27999004
No it didn't, it got access to the elemental punches in gen 2.

Alakazam got buttfucked by Gen 4 the most when it lost the elemental punches and was reduced to a simplified movepool.

>>27998849
>tfw my only tie in Pokemon ever came in a 200 move battle against my brother in gen 2 where I had Umbreon and he had Golem and Tyranitar left.

Fucking brutal.

Let's keep going with this story of pokemon across time.

Gen 3 added abilities, natures, and the modern EV system. These all completely revolutionized how the game worked. There was a complete split from the prior gens, no old pokemon could come over. In fact in the first half of the gen there was NO WAY to obtain almost half of the pokemon, to the dismay of charizard fanboys everywhere. In fact I would call gen 3 the first of the 'modern' pokemon games despite the one major change to the game's core mechanics that it lacked.

Abilities though were perhaps the biggest thing. They made a lot of hitherto mediocre pokemon like Gyarados, Magneton and Dugtrio suddenly very viable. The meta was still quite defensive in general (this was the gen that added sleep talk enabling the dreaded CroCune set) but there were starting to be good options against it. Magneton was very popular because it could absolutely shit on Skarmory. Dugtrio could trap Blissey and focus sash reversal it. Intimidate users effectively helped stall teams though.

Choice items were added which also gave the extra punch needed to get through some of the walls. Later FR/LG brought back a lot of the johto pokemon and Tyranitar in particular came back as an anti-stall meta threat. a famous set was the BOAH which was a mixed attacker using thunderbolt and focus punch that was quite difficult to switch in to, and Tyranitar was the only non-legendary with an auto weather which made him very important in both defensive and offensive teams.

Oh and how could I forget Wobbufet, the thing was fucking broken and had no counters. Shit was even worse than Crocune.

Meta pokemon:
Blissey, Aerodactyl, Heracross, Gyarados, Gengar, Starmie, Raikou, Porygon2, Milotic, Metagross, Magneton, Jolteon, Foretress, Flygon, Dugtrio, Cloyster, Claydol, Salamence, Regice, Snorlax, Starmie, Suicune, Swampert, Tyranitar, Zapdos, Wobbufet

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Who's the worst gen 1 mon that's good now? Clefable?

>>27999004
Alakazam had usefulness in Gen 2 with the elementPunches...

and then Gen 4 took that away and he was virtually unusable until gen 5 gave him a Gimmick ability.

>>27998948
Want to here something cool? You can trade a machoke to gen 2 to evolve it into a Machamp and learn forsight. Then you can trade it back to gen 1 with forsight and have a glitched move on a normal Pokemon

>>27999073
alakazam dropped out of OU quite a few times
gen 4 hit it especially hard when it lost the elemental punches

only 2 that remained OU consistently are gengar and starmie

>>27999247
starmie dropped for a bit because of memefrog

>>27999184
You forgot Weezing.

>>27999268
I think Gengar dropped for a bit in gen 3 too.

Was there even a real competitive scene back then without showdown, smogon and online battles?

>>27999280
nah even in gen 3 it remained solid as the only offensive and fast ghost type
not to mention access to explosion for blowing up on certain fat pink blobs

>>27997804
Machamp + Fissure?

>>27999307
I think simulators started taking off in popularity by gen 3

>>27999184
Gen 4 was, in my opinion, the best meta overall. The biggest feature was its introduction of the physical special split, so that all types could have both physical and special moves. This allowed a lot of pokemon with stat distributions that didn't match their types to finally utilize STAB. Almost every offensive pokemon was improved by this change with a few noteworthy exceptions (Sceptile is the biggest one).

The good new pokemon in this gen were mostly mixed sweepers and support pokemon. Infernape and Bronzong stand out as two that typify this pattern. Hippowdon was added as a second sand stream user, rock types gained 1.5x special defense in the sand which basically only benefited Tyranitar, but the now omnipresent sand made ground and steel types very strong. Gliscor was another new defensive threat, and the introduction of Roost gave Skarmory reliable recovery. Azelf and Weavile were two great new leads.

Stealth Rock was probably the second biggest addition after the physical special split though, as a one turn entry hazard that could take 12.5% HP off of every subsequent switch in was incredible for offensive teams, it turned tons of 3HKOs into 2HKOs for new mixed sweepers. Nasty Plot was a new, viable alternative to swords dance for special sweepers.

At least in the early phase of the gen, the biggest addition was Garchomp. An odd speed tier, a great movepool, surprising bulk and auto evasion in the sand made him an absolutely massive threat. After Platinum move tutors came, Scizor, having gained bullet punch, and Salamence with Draco Meteor also got insanely strong. Rotom forms came with Platinum as well, with Rotom Wash in particular taking the meta by storm.

CONT.

>>27999277
Yeah, I forgot a few actually but Weezing got good starting in gen 3, I think that's when it got pain split.

>>27999268
Yeah, I'm pretty sure only Gengar has been in the meta every single gen, and almost every meta where he's legal too. It sure helps to be Masuda's favorite.

Anyways, >>27999452


Meta pokemon for gen 4:
Aerodactyl, Azelf, Bronzong, Blissey, Breloom Electivire, Dragonite, Electivire, Forretress, Gengar, Garchomp, Gliscor, Gyarados, Heatran, Jolteon, Hippowdon, Infernape, Kingdra, Lucario, Machamp, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Metagross, Ninjask, Roserade, Rotom, Scizor, Skarmory, Smeargle, Snorlax, Suicune, Starmie, Tentacruel, Swampert, Salamence, Weezing, Togekiss, Tyranitar, Umbreon, Vaporeon, Weavile, Wobbufet, Zapdos

>>27999452
stealth rock honestly was a mistake
if it was just flat 12.5% with as bonus over the stackable spikes that it hit flying types, it would have been okay

but dealing 25 to 50% to certain types was just way over the top

>>27999535
It got pain split but it also got Levitate too. It was super bulky and was a decent bulkymon at the time. It died off around mid-gen4 though with the advent of Mold Breaker.

>>27999558
they should at least have some kind of drawback like being absorbed by rock types, only lasting a certain number of turns or something

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>>27999184
>Oh and how could I forget Wobbufet, the thing was fucking broken and had no counters. Shit was even worse than Crocune

>mfw going onto Brazillian servers on Netbattle and seeing all the Wobb vs Wobb infinite stall fests because everyone else saw that it was a problem and banned it while the others continued to use it on every single team

>>27999558
>>27999601
What if Spikes were the same as Stealth Rock, with one single layer, only Ground-type instead of Rock-type?

>>27999628
>heatran losing 50% on switch-in
kek

>>27999452
Agree, gen 4 was awesome. Felt fair and balanced and I don't think many non legendary were Uber, if any.

>>27999601
I wonder if its possible to kill a 'mon when it switches in

Volcanora takes 75% from stealth rock and full spikes
then 12.5% from sandstorm/hail

but I'm forgetting if toxic spikes' poison damage triggers on the switchin turn or not

>>27999558
Stealth Rocks kinda became the literal center of the metagame.

if you don't use it, you're going to lose. it's free damage with pretty much no way of reliably removing or reflecting it.

RapidSpin can be negated by Ghosts
Defog is only learned by TWO pokemon that aren't weak to it (Shiftry and Scizor), and while more Defogers COULD exist, the HM embargo on transferring renders that impossible.

and the moves and abilities that either ignore or reflect Sneaky Pebbles? only a single-digit number of pokemon get those.

Reminder that Slowbro, Chansey, and Gengar have been consistently the best Gen 1 pokemon.

>>27999395
Machamp fissure is only a meme if Machamp has no guard, which he didn't. In gen 1, fissure and OHKO moves worked off the critical hit mechanic which meant that they were best on fast pokemon. Machamp was not fast and neither were most pokemon who had OHKO moves.

Anyways, gen 5 was largely a continuation of the Platinum meta until BW2 which introduced hidden abilities. There were a few new pokemon like Excadrill that were fucking mindbogglingly strong in the original BW meta. Other new additions like Conkeldurr, Hydreigon, Jellicent and Volcarona in particular were solid but didn't upset the meta in the same way that Excadrill did.

Checks to Excadrill didn't come until BW2 which added Hidden Abilities, which turned the meta on its head in some ways. This is when the Smogon meta started to HUGELY diverge from less restrictive formats because auto sun and auto rain came out of the realm of the legendaries on Ninetails and Politoed. Combined with the change to sun that made Growth give sharp boosts under sun, sun teams finally became a legitimate thing. Venusaur and Kingdra were two of the big beneficiaries of this support. The new pokemon Ferrothorn also moved into the spotlight because he was incredibly good with rain support. BW2 also introduced Therian formes, giving us the wonderful Landorus-T.

But more fearsome was the rain team, as the huge assortment of swift swim abusers absolutely loved Politoed support. You almost had to have at least one auto weather pokemon on your team just to clear weather even if you didn't want a weather team. Begun, the weather wars had.

Meta pokemon:
Ninetails, Politoed, Tyranitar, Venusaur, Kingdra, Blissey, Alakazam, Dragonite, Donphan, Dugtrio, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Garchomp, Gliscor, Gyarados, Haxorus, Infernape, Hippowdon, Jellicent, Heatran, Mamoswine, Metagross, Magnezone, Rotom, Reuniclus, Lucario, Starmie, Skarmory, Terrakion, Thundurus, Landorus, Volcarona and a few more I don't have room for.

Gen 1 Tauros was the best Ice type the series ever had.

>>27999867
>Begun, the weather wars had.
they started in gen 4, at least for rain they did, physical/special split meant kingdra was downright bullshit in a light drizzle and there was a lot more support for the rain dance teams overall

have good memories of that team, somehow ended up with a crobat as weather lead but hey it actually worked

>>27999558
Stealth Rock wasn't the problem. Making almost every single ground, rock, and steel type learn it was the mistake.

>>27999867
>the change to sun that made Growth give sharp boosts under sun
huh, I never knew this.

also why the fuck is Growth a normal type move not grass.

>>27999708
Gen 4 had based meta. It came before the weather fest of Gen 5 and the ridiculous power creep of Gen 6 but had the Spec/Phys split that made stalling even harder.
And now Gen 7 seems to be going for even more of a power creep with Z Moves and all that jazz.

>>27999867
I didn't have room to mention it, but gen 5 also gave us Eviolite which thankfully made the abomination we know as Rhyperior literally worse than its pre-evo. It also made Chansey overtake Blissey in terms of usefulness, but this was probably the weakest gen for Chansey since gen 1 due to the tons of new weather abusing mixed sweepers that could absolutely shit on it like Venusaur and Kingdra. Also HA Blaziken, what a joke that was.

Outside of the smogon meta which tactically banned shit like Exacdrill, HA Blaziken, and even using Drizzle+swift swim on the same team, stalling was probably at its weakest in gen 5.

Anyways, quick summary of gen 6:

Memefrog with protean and the speed/movepool to abuse it unlike Cuckleon, memebird with priority on half of its STAB attacks, Aegislash everywhere in every format, and a few retardedly OP megas like M-Kanga and M-Gar, then M-Mence with ORAS. 90% of the megas were completely useless and the 1 mega per team rule basically punishes you for using them. Megas were really poorly thought out by gamefreak which resulted in them actually taking more pokemon out of the meta than they brought in. Fairy type doesn't really check dragons like it was supposed to but is a menace in its own right, Azumarill became a thing on fairy typing alone. Clefable is very fucking strong.

A shitload of new doubles only moves were added which actually made VGC format more interesting than the Smogon format, which has successively banned all of the non-shitmon megas, every time they banned the best one, the one that was overshadowed by it proved to be OP as fuck. Also banned were Aegislash and Greninja.

Constantly Vomiting Bull and Curse of Snorlax

>>27999535
>Poison Heal SubPunch Breloom
Every time I got that set up it was nonstop laughs
and so often people either didn't have the right checks/counters or they just got Spore'd

>>27999976
Yeah but the weather wars were very lopsided in gen 4 because auto sand and hail were the only two auto weathers, it was much easier to get rain/sun off the field than it was to keep sand off the field. But the sheer strength of bulky waters in gen 4 (particularly because you wanted a lot of ice beam users available to deal with Yachechomp) made rain fairly viable.

It wasn't until 5 that weather was just a completely mandatory thing for teambuilding though. You had a way to deal with weather or you lost, period.

>>27999863
>>27999872
Honestly while Cloyster suffered a blow in Gen IV and it's not exactly popular now it has been pretty consistent as well. Spiked, Rapid Spin and Shell Smash ensure it always finds its niche.

>>27999618
The first and last time that there was (almost) universal consensus that a non legendary needed to be removed from standard play.

I should add that this issue was fixed in gen 5, when shadow tag was changed so it's disabled if another pokemon with shadow tag is on the field.

>>28000395
I found that the presence of bulky water's tended to actually make weather teams more viable in gen 4 than less

generally speaking if you managed to get rid of suicune or vaporeon your was suddenly lacking in water resistance of any kind which just meant kingdra or the fossil bro's could easily got 5-1

>>28000573
I might not have made it clear but that's what I said. The fact that bulky waters were so good made rain better. However sand was still better because it had two very good pokemon who could auto set it and as such get rid of rain in a pinch. And one of them got an automatic 50% sdef boost when he switched in to summon sand.

Rain teams were good, just not as good as sand teams. I still remember my Bronzong/Swampert/Suicune/Kingdra/Blissey/Gyarados team, shit absolutely destroyed in the early platinum ladder.

>>27999234
Nope. You couldn't trade pokemon from gen 2 to gen 1 if they knew any gen 2 moves

>>28000709
correction: you can't enter the time capsule if your gen 1 pokemon know any gen 2 moves.

what that anon was saying, is that if you trade your machoke to a gen 2 game at the correct level, it will evolve into machamp, and automatically learn foresight, as you are still in the time capsule, you can then trade it back to gen 1, as long as you stay in the time capsule.

fire types sucked
fighting types were bad despite normal pokemon being common after psychic

Thinking about how good Gen 4s meta was, makes me hate gen 6.

The sad thing is, if you get rid of metas I can see Gen 6 being the best of all. Think about it.

also blizzard has 90 accuracy and a 1 in 3 chance of freezing

>>28000961
>The sad thing is, if you get rid of megas I can see Gen 6 being the best of all. Think about it.

I would add Gale Wings, Protean being Greninja's HA and King's Shield having that retarded -2 effect to that too.

Everything else was just right

Gen I "OU" was dominated by Tauros, Exeggutor, Snorlax, and sometimes Chansey.

The other Psychic types were common too. In some cases Persian was a decent choice because of how the Crit hits were determined.

Gen II knocked Tauros down but Snorlax was still up there. Stall really started to become the metagame in Gen II.

>>28001668
>Gen II
>Snorlax was still up there

He was more than just "up there", he was the single most dominant OU Pokémon of all time.

>>27997400
This is demonstrably not true. Due to shitty move distribution more pokemon were totally worthless than today

Question about gen 1 meta, why is dugtrio not used? I would think its decent attack and its fuck ridiculous speed it would be a monster.

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>>28000240
Why does Smogon even ban so much stuff, it feels counter-intuitive to just ban it rather than work around the "OP" and find something that counters it. That's kinda what I like about competitive, getting wrecked by something you don't know how to deal with and learning from the loss. Shadow taggers stalling you out? Roar, U-turn, and Volt switch can fix it. Belly Drum/ D-dance users rolling you? Roar, Haze and Unaware Pokemon like Clefable and Quagsire give you breathing room. I just feel that banning things that are strong at the moment defeats the purpose of strategy in the first place. This seems like more of a rant than a question but it still stands, why does Smogon ban non-legendary Pokemon just for being that pokemon?

>>28002065

can't take a hit, isn't quite powerful enough to sweep

it's sort of above average

>>28002065
3 reasons

1. bad movepool, unlike the normal types Persian and Tauros, he couldn't learn any good special moves
2. no STAB hyperbeam, the entire point is you NEED the OHKO with it otherwise you're fucked
3. Low bulk, and this is actually the biggest one. the Stat XP system in gen 1/2 was basically like having 252 EVs in all stats. So pokemon with more broadly distributed stats tended to take better advantage of stat XP. Compare defenses

Dugtrio: 35/50/70
Persian: 65/60/65
Tauros: 75/95/70

Dugtrio having so little HP was actually a huge detriment when everything had more bulk, and him also having less attack than Tauros and was a worse crit abuser than Persian due to no STAB slash, in exchange for only 5 extra speed, just wasn't worth it. Dugtrio couldn't OHKO either Persian or Tauros using its extra speed and would get OHKOed by either of them.

>>28002357

by gen 1 standards quake / rock slide / slash is pretty good

>>27997654
I thought Persian was a dominant force because of the whole, critical hits being based on speed and slash gave 100 crits.

>>28001702
I meant in comparison to Tauros.

But, yeah, Snorlax was S tier in Gen 2.

>>28002216
Because the players are babies and it gets banned so they will stop getting triggered. It's like how a lot of boards end up being made in 4chan just so people will stop getting triggered by whatever was moved to the board.

>>28002379
Yeah, but not good enough when Tauros can learn tbolt, blizzard, fire blast, and Persian can bring bubblebeam and thunderbolt on top of all of the worthwhile physical moves.

Like >>28002243 said Dugtrio wasn't awful but he just didn't bring enough to the table that others didn't do better.

>>28002216
I believe the ban only really comes for a non-legendary when they become too rampant in the meta. Changing your strategy because of a weakness in your team is one thing. Every player in the meta being forced to explicitly build a team around or against a certain pokemon or two kinda takes away from the variability in strategic team-building

>>28002216
Smogon bans things based on the criteria of overcentralization of the metagame. Basically, when you need to build your entire segments of your team around countering a threat, or part of your plan for dealing with a threat is trading two for one and there is no legitimate alternative.

In a game with rapidly increasing power creep beneath the legendary level, their job becomes increasingly hard. You just cannot counter some pokemon in singles. Quite a few of the megas and stuff like Greninja and Aegislash are just too versatile to deal with using a single counter. Gamefreak no longer gives a fuck about balancing singles since their preferred format is 4v4 doubles so they keep adding absolutely retarded shit.

Like look at Excadrill in BW, there was no effective way to counter that thing. If it switched in with sand up, it would get a kill, no contest. Same thing with Garchomp in gen 4 to a lesser extent, if Yachechomp switched in to something that didn't obviously fucking counter it, it would get a swords dance and it would kill something. A literal retard can take kills with these so literally everyone carried them. At the peak of gen 4's Garchomp craze about 60-70% of ladder teams used one. He was the first non legendary banned to ubers (other than wobbufet who was both incredibly OP and could result in 100+ turn PP mills ending with struggles if it ran into another wobbufet) specifically because he was overcentralizing. Too many people used him, and the people who didn't use him made teams with 5 or 6 pokemon with ice type attacks to break his Yache.

>>28002216
>Shadow taggers stalling you out? Roar, U-turn, and Volt switch can fix it.
You're assuming that you choose who goes against the Shadow Tagger, but it's the other way around. They can pick what they want to shit on. Like, Gothitelle just comes in on a wall, taunts it and calmly boosts to +6 without you being able to do shit.

>>27999810
defog didn't remove hazards in gen 4

>>27999184
Sleeptalk is a gen 2 move and focus sash is gen 4.

Pleb couldn't handle the wrap game.

I miss gen 3 uber doubles.

>>28002432
If you're playing by cart rules, that doesn't matter much since Hyper Beam spam is used a lot more often than Slash, so Persian kind of sucks. If you're using Stadium rules, it's a slightly stronger, faster, frailer Tauros.

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>>27999872
I had a good laugh over this, thanks anon

>>27997312

Psychic wasnt that OP. Alakazam had low DEF, shallow movepool. Hypno wasnt too great

water/psychics however were awesome.

Water were just overly favored. Given ice moves really made them too versatile. Some got electric moves. Having that spread of moves as well as being a solid type offensively and defensively water types were just better.

Then being psychic didnt make them worse at all. You needed a psychic type to resist psychic. Shit was so imbalanced. Water, psychic and normal just fucking shit up. Electric and rock had uses to counter water and normals, but fighting or bug not usable at all.

>>28003829
Also, since special atk and def were the same thing, some psychics got Amnesia which boosted both 2 stages.

>>27999307
Battles on mIRC

>>28003152
Yep, what enabled CroCune was Calm Mind, not Sleep Talk. And Dugtrio actually used Endure for that strategy (or CB EQ).

>>28003829
Psychic was strong because Bugs were irrelevant and the sole Ghost was weak to Psychic and had no bulk, making it a glass cannon.

>>28006699
Ghost type moves were also ineffective against psychic type pokemon according to the type table. They weren't really meant to do anything against psychic pokemon originally.

>>27999452
>Rotom Wash in particular taking the meta by storm.
That didn't happen until gen 5, as unless I'm mistaken, the Rotom forms were still Ghost/Electric in gen 4.

>>27999867
>Machamp fissure is only a meme if Machamp has no guard
I'm cautiously certain this will be solved by simply instating the OHKO moves 30% flat rate to override No Guard.

>>27999307
Azure Heights had a RYB simulator, then Netbattle showed up for Gen II.

>>28006771
Right.
But all the appliance rotoms were OU then and wash was the most popular.

>>27998722
>I don't understand the metagame
AYY

>>28006920
>I don't understand anything
AYY

>>28003938

Only Slowbro and Mewtwo were psychic types with amnesia. Mewtwo is OP without it Snorlax had amnesia, he was also OP. Poliwraith had amnesia and being water type meant he was pretty awesome, but fighting hurt him, so he was just ok.

>>28006724

They also only had 'lick', so they really fucked up. Im still baffled they never made ghost or bug resist psychic. Had they made both resist and given us decent attacks of each type we'd never have gotten dark type.

>>28007806
Dark was the gen II fairy type. A type meant to rebalance match ups that was unnecessary because they just needed to fix the existing types.

>>28000961
>>28001563

Nintendo runs an official no-megas format: https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/battle/oras/117/#special

Aegislash and memefrog are still everywhere, but it's a much broader game

>>27998446
slowbro was shit, you probably mean exegutor

>>28011028
Um, no? Tobybro kicked fucking ass, dude.

So gen 1 was hell?

>>28013867
Gen 1 was casino games, Gen 2 was chess.

>>28013945
Gen II was naptime.

Curselax, SkarmBliss, Umbreon...it was a damn boring stall generation. Ugh.

Victrebell poisonpowder+wrap

>>28014076
I bet you think chess is naptime too.

>>27998883
if you are autistic, yeah

>>28000961
I enjoyed 6 in the period between Mega Mom getting kicked upstairs and before Oras released.

>>28013867
Gen I was fun.

>>28013867
Gen 1 was the great feeling of getting your opponents team down to half health each then sweeping with tauros.

>>27999535
>It sure helps to be Sugimori's favorite
Fixed

>>27997422
Shuckle is still unfuckle up to Ubers