Double Team/Minimize Accuracy reducers. Why are they banned

cuz it's annoying dude

>>27958737
this is bait

>>27958769
well then just say that, I can accept annoying rather than lame ass excuses to justify it

>>27958842
>well then just say that
that's literally what "uncompetitive" is, learn how to speak smogon dude

>>27958737
The real reason is that they are just too good. Nothing can break trough Minimize Chansey or Clefable, or Double Team Gliscor.

>>27958737
Crits are an unavoidable part of the game but are a lot less drastic, even with focus energy. Accuracy changers completely hinder and even remove skill and strategy from the game by allowing bad players to rely entirely on RNG to save their ass, making the game all about luck above all else.

>>27958888
no it does not

annoying is subjective

uncompetitive is objective

>>27958890
>>27958977
roar/whirlwind/haze

anyone who isn't an idiot knows those..

besides, it takes 2-3 double teams to be reliable

by then you can easily get ohkoed

I mean, say Blissey goes on a second double team, you could have easily switched for anyone with close combat and send it crying back to its owner

>>27958977
also lower accuracy is also unavoidable for a rather big number of moves

I get that Chansey was a big problem in Gen 1, but now there are a shit ton of physical fighting attacks that can Ohko it. Fuck, even magical Aura Sphere can't miss...

Even a non fighting stab 100% earthquake is enough.

>>27959331
>no it does not
it's a joke you dense fuck, everyone on smogon just uses "uncompetitive" as a buzzword for anything they think is annoying but isn't conventionally broken

>>27959415
okay, don't hurt my feelings though

>>27959331
Here's a link to on how much stat modifications affect evasiveness:
http://www.serebii.net/games/stats.shtml

>>27958977
What about Scald users? Serene Grace users? Hypnosis' accuracy and sleep clock? Paralysis and confusion rolls?

OP is a dumb kid


relying on evasion removes any kind of skill and turns the match into a rng luckfest

They're not banned, you smogonshitter

>>27958890
Clefable is the only good one there and it's far from impossible to beat, otherwise it would be at the top of BS singles stats

Chansey doesn't have enough offensive to make use of Minimize and Double Team is a bad move

>>27958737
This has been discussed already hundreds of times. Evasion modifiers fuck the game in the ass and completely overcentralize the game. It essentially becomes your evasion modifiers, your evasion modifier's counter, and that counter's counter.

If a CHECK (roar/whirlwind/haze are not counters you fucking moron) is absolutely required on every team for a specific threat and a check for that check, then there's a problem.

>>27958737
>critical hits are random
You know you can actually run critical hit Pokemon in XYORAS?

Because:
1. it's a scummy way to win by just relying on RNG
2. It's over-centralizing in that only offensive Pokemon with high-damage no-miss moves or No Guard would be viable.

>>27959474
Because you go in competitive without a check for spikes/toxic spikes/stealth rock?

Or without a check for the obvious dragon types?

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Can we get a comfy thread going?

>>27959474
>Roar/whirlwind/haze are not counters.
But they reset the evasiveness mods and bypass accuracy check.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Haze_(move)
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Whirlwind_(move)
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Roar_(move)

And you also have aerial ace, shockwave, shadow punch, aura sphere and whatever accuracy-check-ignoring attack move I missed. But I can sort of get evasion modding cluttering up the meta with too many checks a player needs to accommodate.

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If you use a move with less than perfect accuracy thats you making a conscientious decision to take a risk for a possible reward. Its your choice.

Evasion and accuracy are the opponent fucking with your rng to hide behind pure luck. It just means matches will be pissing contests to see how low we can get accuracy.

Random crits are dumb anyway, no one would defend them

>whirlwind/roar/haze
Not very common at all really unless youre running a phasing set.

Lets just polarize the meta even more by forcing every team to require one of the few pokemon that learn these moves. Just like rapid spin in gen 4 and weather in gen 5.

That sounds greeeaaat.

Why would you want to have to waste move slots and lock yourself into certain mons just to counter evasion? What do you even want evasion for? To win a few games? What happens when you don't get lucky and your opponents do and you lose to evasion even with your team made to counter it?

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>>27959552
Here we're talking about meta and gameplay so you might want to start your own thread about that instead; unless you want to lead a path of ban evasion.

>>27959567
well fuck it, so weather based teams are fine, toxic/stealth rock based teams are fine but double team? nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

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Most counters for evasion are either unreliable, have poor distribution, are weak, and are a waste of a moveslot against players who aren't abusing evasion.

By preparing yourself for evasion, you're gimping yourself against any other strategy.

>>27959573
actually I just want it to vary the game more

what's so bad about having a new strategy?

Again, spikes/stealth rock fine, weather strategy fine, double team? Nah.

>>27959595
>muh momentum

Jesus Christ that's written by someone who absolutely hates competitiveness and wants to sweep through teams with ease.

>>27959595
Saying you need specifically anti-evasion things to beat evasion is like saying you need to hit a Pokemon super effectively in order to KO it, or that Unaware is the only way to counter set up sweepers. The game is not that simple

Besides, if there are pokemon that are really good with minimize/double team, they'll just end up in Uber where they have bigger threats to deal with

This isn't Gen 1 where the counters are few anymore. The game has become so multifaced that it really makes no sense to me to ban evasion tactics.

>>27959567
>If you use a move with less than perfect accuracy thats you making a conscientious decision to take a risk for a possible reward. Its your choice.

The chances of being OHKOed because you went for an evasive move is still a risk one can take..

>>27959472
>playing shitty ubers doubles: the meta

>>27959756
What?

>>27959756
yeah everyone is totally going to pick double team Clefable over Arceus

Makes fucking sense. You are dead before you even manage to press minimize

>roar
>whirlwind
>haze
>common
Stop reading there.

Just make more moves like Stomp that increase in damage if someone uses minimize. Make moves like Surf or Earth Quake hit with 100% accuracy at Double Team anyway
There you go

Going to make a double team team now

>>27959802
This.

They are running out of ideas for attacks anyway, so why not ....

It'd make moves like Muddy Water or similar more popular rather than the usual Surf

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Someone actually put together this info graphic to support the notion that nothing can deal with evasion, listing 40 ways to deal with evasion.

Fit two of those onto your team and you'd be set. Many have other uses as well.

>>27959802
shit like stomp and flying press already do senpai

>>27959613
stop playing smogon and play on battlespot if you want to be an evasive faggot

I have a competitive level Anything Goes team that is just 6 Focus Sash Swoobats. That's how busted evasion moves are.

>>27959613
>actually I just want it to vary the game more

It would do exactly the opposite though. Every single game would come down to evasion battles.

You people do realize that smogon tests these things before they ban them right? That these aren't just arbitrary decisions that are made off the top of their head that they THINK the stuff is bad for the meta game.

Evasion clause has been tested so much that they no longer test it. It has been proven time and time again that it is absolutely unhealthy for their meta game.

>>27958737
Youtube generation hates anything that makes battles take more than 3 minutes

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>There are shitters on /vp/ who are legitimately defending evasion

I'm dying. Somebody please post the picture of all the Evasion counters, I don't have it saved.

I miss pre-XY /vp/, before every single underage shitter from reddit and GameFAQs came flooding in to give their worthless opinion on competitive.

>>27960234
It has been posted twice already.

It's total shitter.

>muh infographic
>muh 2 digits IQ

>>27960174
do you realize that Smogon ranks are defined as popularity even more than actual strength?

If evasion moves are perennial banned, then they haven't really been testing it at all since gen 1 or 2.

They decided to ban them and done.

>>27960234
Take off your eyepatch, it has already been posted.

Double Team is a joke. Almost everything might learn it, but the only Pokémon that can use it effectively are Swoobat, Bibarel (due to Simple) and some very bulky ones such as Cresselia.

Minimize is another issue, but it has a very narrow distribution. And some of its potential users, like Chandelure and Starmie, are better off just attacking.

All in all there's about a dozen Pokémon that can use evasion effectively.

>>27960112
>competitive level
>Anything Goes
I think you meant to write "cheesefest". Your team fits it perfectly.

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>It's an anon's call anything they can't beat because their brain is too small cheese episode

toppu keku there are like 50 guaranteed accuracy moves now and people still cry about evasion

>>27960294
>do you realize that Smogon ranks are defined as popularity even more than actual strength?
>If evasion moves are perennial banned, then they haven't really been testing it at all since gen 1 or 2.
>They decided to ban them and done.

Yes, i do know that. And you are wrong. Evasion was suspect tested as late as Gen 4. They don't test it anymore because everytime they do it is inherently broken.

>>27960301
See, this is the problem with evasion. You are concentrating solely on minimize/double team and have no idea that garbage like bright powder + snow cloak/sand veil are why evasion is banned. You really want to fight a swords dance Garchomp in sand holding a bright powder every game?

>>27960325
>having to waste 1/4 of your moves on a do-nothing

>>27960342
>swords dance Garchomp in sand holding a bright powder
Still 72% hit chance. And you guys always act like setting up is free for the other side.

>>27958737
>Why are they banned anyway?
"it's not fun", when talking about competition. Aka smogon is run by kids who only see mass dps wipe as "how you must play"

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>>27960342
>You really want to fight a swords dance Garchomp in sand holding a bright powder every game?
No one uses it, it's a bad strategy

>>27960450
Because it's banned, retard.

>>27960468
Does the image look like Smogon stats to you, you retard?

>>27960450
wait what is this.

i don't remember this website/app.

>>27960483
I don't see why it isn't and what point you're trying to make. Anti-smogonites are getting dumber by the minute... sigh

>>27960515
>>27960526
Confirmed for not playing the actual games. Back into your echo chamber with you.

>>27960594
Says you, the one defending evasion! Go cry about it at your previous vgc, shitlord

>>27960684
Why should I cry about something that is absolutely not a problem?

>>27959454
>turns the match into a rng luckfest

implying it isn't already

>>27958888
>uncompetitive
Being annoying is the entire goal of competition though

>>27960717
Because it is! It makes the game unfair and luck based, that's not competitive at all!

All these people who clearly don't understand the game at all. It's hilarious how people compare rng to more rng as if one form of luck is different to another. Luck is luck, at the end of the day it's going to creep into a match and void its legitimacy as a competitive match.

This game can't be competitive because of the nature of its rng, simple as that. Fighting games are competitive because of the lack of rng or the controllable nature of rng.

I agree with OP.

Without RNG it would be who is stronger, who is faster and there is nothing to that. Nobody would like that.

>Shit like paralize which has a random chance of fucking up a move is ok
>Same with freeze chance in ice moves
>Hypnosis with that shitty hit chance is perfectly fine
>Dodge is broken gais! Even though there are ways to fight against it it's bad because you would be forced to run it!
Yet rapid spin is in every team lol

>>27960778
Competitive Pokémon is about managing probabilities and recognizing where your chances might be.

In that regard it is somewhat similar to poker, where the outcome of a round is down to the luck of the draw, but where experienced players who make good decisions have a better shot at winning the table.

>>27959454
>skill
Like picking pokémon that have evasive moves, no wait you have to have been lucky enough to pick a team that beat the other team right? It is entirely luck isn't it?

>>27960883
So it isn't about battling the pokémon but picking the teams

Or you can just only have respect for randoms players like I do

>accuracy is a hidden stat
Remember when we were talking about removing stats or having them all be the same? It sure looks like all accuracy is the same hmmm now why does that work?

Wasn't evasion modified by speed? How can metapod be as evasive as pikachu

>>27960883
So you agree the skill ultimately means nothing when "the outcome of a round is down to the luck of the draw".

Thanks

>>27958737
>At this point, counters like roar/whirlwind/haze are common in most teams.
And people are only likely to have one Roar, Whirlwind or Haze user on a team.

>Infallible moves like Aura Sphere are around as well, worst case scenario, it'd just give Gamefreak an excuse to create an infallible move for most types.
Aura Sphere has low distribution and all of the other moves are 60 base damage, meaning that only a Technician user can get consistently good use out of them.

>>but muh random
>Critical hits are random. A lot of popular moves do not have 100% accuracy but 90 or 80 anyway.
The user of an inaccurate move accepts that the move is inaccurate. They fully acknowledge that Fire Blast or Hydro Pump will miss sometimes. Double Team and Minimize are self-buffs, meaning that they stay on the user until they either switch out or are hit by something like Defog, effectively reducing all of the enemy's remaining Pokemon.
>>muh baton pass
>what's more scary? a pokemon that gets baton passed 3 double teams or 3 nasty plots?
A Pokemon with 3 Nasty Plots can be outsped or outprioritized. A Pokemon passed 3 Double Teams will dodge 50% of all priority attacks, faster Pokemon, status moves and such.

>>27960989
No. It was always a set percentage for a move, modified by stat gains/drops, items etc.

>>27960999
Skill is what matters in the long run. It prevents you from fucking up your chances.

To reach the final stages of a tournament or be on top of the ladder, you'll need some skill.

>>27961062
True, but, again, ultimately, if you're unlucky you just won't be able to.

>>27961053
So? In the end why take away competitive things? For sake of time. You're in such a fucking hurry you think evasion is a waste of time

>>27961062
Accuracy and evasion are different things

>muh priority moves, they they have to hit!

>>27960870
no one ever said any of those were ever fine, it's just accepted shit since there are many viable ways to get around them or better alternatives

>>27958737
>/vp/ being this retarded again

im glad half this thread is one retard defending evasion instead of the whole thread

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Evasion has a snowballing effect, aka it becomes easier to set up the more you use it. There is nothing else in the game like this.
>Roar, Whirlwind, Haze
What is Taunt or Magic Bounce?
>Undodgable attacks
Too weak and have too little distribution to be a reasonable counter.
You also ignore the fact that nearly EVERY Pokemon in the game can at least learn double team. On the other hand, phazers are far and few between. You have unlimited options when it comes to choosing your evasion mon, while the restriction of phazers makes them extremely predictable and countered.
Ultimately, it's an extremely over centralizing strategy. It's not fun, simply put.

>worst case scenario, it'd just give Gamefreak an excuse to create an infallible move for most types.

They're not banned in VGC and Gamefreak likely doesn't base their decisions on Smogon's shit.

Smogon bans evasion moves because they make the game luck based instead of skill based. Same reason they ban OHKO moves. You can agree or disagree with how they run things, but this is how Smogon players prefer to play. Arguably, Pokemon battles are most fun when the factor of luck is minimized.

>>27959472
This
Stop playing with shitters and play the actual competition aka sanctioned tournaments

Sure I just happen to have what I need for the situation every time

In summation, smogon is for those who think battles would be more fun with certain things gone. Good thread. Nice lesson.

If Evasiveness is banned, for being 'uncompetitive' why is stall allowed?

>>27961282
Spoken like a true frogposter.

>>27959654
How else do you beat it then? Get lucky and hit them? You want even more luck in the game then there already is. Those examples are no where near equal to the problem of accuracy/evasion modifiers

>>27961500
Why is luck so spooky?

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>people complaining about RNG in Pokemon

>>27961549
it isn't, that's why we play the game, but a reasonable player or anyone with anyou drive to derive a good experience from a battle would know that allowing evasion would make most games one sided at the least. You would be facing many of the same teams, most with very dew variations down to maybe a few mons. I ask you, why would you want this? Do you think people enjoy having to run phasers or whatever bullshit moves just to counter the luck based bullshit that evasion brings? It's not the same as rapid spin because you can still fuck up someone who has hazards on your side of the field with proper playing and a good team, rocks and spikes don't prevent you from hitting a pokemon nor do they over centralize the game like evasion would.

>>27961619
Why would I want what already is? I don't know, I'm sure there are plenty more to deal with you think the game will be centered on this rather than speed and power?

>>27961619
Evasion doesn't reign BattleSpot Singles. Why do you think it would be anything but a niche on Smogonshit?

Let's say you go to a shooting contest for some reason and the main goal is to hit a target 50 yards away. Your opponent shoots first and easily hits the target, but when it comes your time to shoot they make you wear a blindfold. No big deal, you can still hit the target so it's fair right? Well after the first round of shots the opponent shoots again and nails the target just as easily as the first time, but when you come up to shoot and put on your blindfold they decide the need to move your target back another 20 yards. No big deal, even though you missed last round because you were blindfolded this is not impossible and totally a fair system.

>>27961685
Don't try to analogize this

I don't follow competitive Pokemon. Do official, non-smogon tournaments also ban raising evasion?

>>27961685
Why didn't you blindfold your opponent as well?

You literally have to be a bitch not to handle evasion

>>27961685
And you also have some guns that automatically hit the target, and a pair of goggles you can put on that sees through the blindfold. Some don't even need the goggles and can echolocate.

>>27961756
No

>Critical hits are random

You can't ban critical hits.

>what's more scary? a pokemon that gets baton passed 3 double teams or 3 nasty plots?

A pokémon that gets baton passed 3 minimizes.

>>27961776
How come it's not a prevalent strategy then?

>>27961756
Most "official" tournaments use doubles format where boosting is difficult to pull off (other than geomancy Xerneas). It would be extremely difficult to pull off any sort of evasion boosts with 2 threats on the field.

>>27961785
Because it's considered cheap and unreliable by most since it is entirely depends on luck.

>>27961772
You didn't know you were going to be blindfolded when you arrived so you only brought 1 gun to shoot with. Tough luck

>>27961785
Because it's incredibly easy to play around.

>>27961822
Then that is your lack of "skill" isn't it

>>27961822
Your fault for bringing spikes to throw at the opponent's feet instead of a gun

>>27961282
>Evasion has a snowballing effect, aka it becomes easier to set up the more you use it. There is nothing else in the game like this.
Except that's basically how all defensive boosts work.

Anons, I have a question. Have any of you played X-COM?

That's a game about managing your probabilities as to increase your chance of winning. Move to a flank for a better angle and greater accuracy, putting your men at risk, or sit and take low percentage pop-shots. Do you all think that's bullshit? Isn't this the same?

Hell, if Smogon did allow evasion modifiers maybe it would mean people start running the lenses because they're paranoid about their accuracy/double team, instead of splashing life orb/lefties on things they aren't sure about. Maybe people wouldn't be so quick to bash Hone Claws as being shit, maybe people would start running those weird moves like Sweet Scent or whatever.

Plus, aren't you all forgetting that one Double Team boost isn't really that significant? If you let a mon whose most common set is a Double Team setup have a free move on a switch, you fucking deserve to get punished like that.

But muh Blissey/Chansey, you say. Admittedly, I've never tried it, but what move could it viably sacrifice to start running Minimise? But even if evasion did break a handful of mons, what's stopping Smogon from just banning those precious few?

I just don't get it. Evasion is strong, but there aren't that many Pokemon that can flat out abuse it. Probably a few more than Paraflinch, but still not that many

Fuck this was a ramble

>>27961854
And it feels good to punish people who let you set up defense boosts too, especially when you know they aren't running a phaser

Can't ghosts escape shadow tag?

>>27962119
Pretty easy to kill just one ghost, though, innit? Especially considering that every single mon with Shadow Tag has a super effective move on ghosts, giving you an inbuilt advantage

Plus, Shadow Tag is fatal, having a 76% chance to hit isn't

>you're not hurting anything with 60bp attacks
>if you end up missing a few times in a row you're basically fucked
>combine with leftovers and cosmic power for the ultimate in bullshit

There's a reason that shit is so hated in battle facilities

>"We can't have evasion effecting moves because they over centralize the game!!"
Why isn't sneaky pebbles and other arena traps banned then?
>silence

Sasuga, Smogonfags

>>27962683
It's hated because it can ruin a streak of hundred games or more, after which you have to start from nothing.

Whereas on a ladder, you are expected to lose a lot of your games even when you are a good player. You don't get sent down to 1000 for a loss.

It could be more of a problem in a tournament's elimination round, but using luck-dependent strategies such as evasion can fuck your opponent over just as easily. Which is why hardly anyone uses something like that in tournaments.

>>27959559
No, the definition of a counter is something that forces another Pokemon out without causing much harm to the counter.

Whirlwind and Roar force you to go last so you MUST take a hit (and in many situations that's just not a good idea since you can be worn down) and haze has shit distribution.

In addition, must no-miss moves are very weak.

You try hitting an eviolite Chansey that spams minimize with a fucking Chandelure.

>>27962910
Clandestine cobblestones don't overcentralize the game. Neither do Arena Trappers most of which are shit.

Evasion would force you to run certain moves. Hazards force you to run what, one or two moves? Rapid Spin and Defog which decent Pokemon get? Not even force you actually, you can play without a spinner and still fuck shit up without relying on coin flips.

>>27958737
Smogon has an anything goes tier, go play that you whiny fuck. Or go play on battle spot.

>>27960896
what a fucking retard

>>27958888
Then why do things like Flinchax and Prankster Thunder Wave allowed? I find them to be far more annoying than evasion.

Haven't read the thread, but surely someone has called OP a retard for thinking accuracy lowering moves are banned?

Use flash/mud slap all you want if you want to be a coin flipping piece of shit. Forcing every team to carry haze is really stupid for the metagame though.

>>27962910

You can EASILY win a battle without rapid spin/defog.

If an opponent starts spanning minimize and you don't have haze or some other extremely niche counter move, you are fucked, lest you get EXTREMELY lucky

>>27960770
It already is luckbased and vgc proves that evasion isnt a problem

>>27966042
Flinchhax is incredibly rare, and Prankster Thunder Wave isn't exactly common.

Double Team is learned by every Pokemon that can learn a TM.

>>27966150

VGC is a whole different beast, go play there if you want to be a coin flipping retard.

Smogon has already had experimental tiers with evasion allowed, and surprise surprise, bulky minimize users dominated the tier

On a side note, I'm glad retards basically admit that moves like aerial ace and magical leaf aren't acceptable countermeasures any more

>>27966150
isn't Pokemon VGC doubles which makes evasion less feasible?

>>27966042

Paraflinchers are fucking annoying, but there are only like 3 of them, and they can each be easily countered. If the serene grace/thunderwave/flinching move combo had the same distribution as double team, then it would be banned

>>27958737
Why does /vp/ always bring this up? Every time this is brought up it's settled the same way, why do we need to keep bringing this up?

Someone should make a fucking image about why evasion is retarded and why it deserves to stay banned.

I can understand double team

But minimize I don't get.

Stomp, Body Slam, Flying Press, fucking Dragon's Rush,they all check a minimized target and do double damage.

>>27966023

>being this retarded

Pokemon battles ARE mostly luck you faggot

>>27958737
i often ask myself why there is a sleep clause in place. Sleep isn't bad, especially knowing that poison, paralysis, and burn have much stronger effects.

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>>27959474

>what is the VGC and its shit meta

Anon your joking right

>>27959474
Because sneaky pebbles and other hazards don't overcentralize the game right?

>>27959454
Just like Parafuse, Sniper (and crits in general), Sleep and any attack with less than 100 Accuracy.

>>27959594

Lets not forget trick room users, Prankster/Stall teams and Priority teams like Bravest Bird and Aqua Jet Azumarill


The Meta is full of gimmicks and RNG competitivefags are just in delusion

>>27966708
No, they don't. You are not forced to carry them on your team to reliably succeed.

Stop being a moron, go play anything goes if you want to deal with that fuckery.
>>27966585
VGC is doubles, where it's much more difficult to pull it off.

>>27959594
Weather only lasts 5-8 turns
You can switch out to reset the toxic counter
Stealth Rock does not force you to carry a counter to it, you can reliably succeed without it

>>27959472
>Chansey doesn't have enough offensive to make use of Minimize and Double Team is a bad move

Have you ever used it with charge beam and uproar and max spak investment? I have and people often quit after the second ohko

>>27959384
>He's going to take out Chansey with Aura sphere

I love how all the smogon fags are like but muh meta. Oh no!

Your meta has a groudon rayquaza on the same fucking team. Watching worlds the past 2 days very little differentiates team from team. Get off your high horses if you cant handle the stresses and frustration of evasion a core concept from gen 1 then obviously you're content with the meta game as a piece of shit with an already glorified blue print any snub can pick up and attempt.

>>27968024
Someone tried to do that to me the other day.

They caught a couple of S-Tosses before they forfeited.

>>27966412
Body Slam is the only one of those that doesn't suck the longest dick in the universe.

>>27968148
That's funny because unbanning evasion would do just that

>tfw had this exact discussion about evasion with some guy yesterday

>>27958977
>a lot less drastic

Fuck off, everyone can remember a series of games they would have one if not for an unexpected OHKO

>>27966281
>only thing setting the format apart from most of their others is that evasion is allowed
>people actually use evasion
Who'da thunk it?

>>27962067
You're right though.

SMOGON players religiously defend their meta and any challenge to it. I mean those charts for the counters are a perfect example.
>I'm gonna list 40 counters and then immediately dismiss them because they're not completely optimal

Banning something that does have counters is only going to make the meta less nuanced.

>>27958737
Have you ever actually played in an evasion-allowed singles meta? It's not fun.

>>27970956
Evasion has no counters, just checks.

>>27958890
Actually, Minimize gives moves like Stomp and Steamroller huge boosts to accuracy and damage.

>>27972225
No guard?

>>27973015
That's not a counter because the Pokemon boosting its evasion could still fuck you in the ass. That's why people have been saying there aren't any evasion counters, because you still have to switch in, take a hit, and THEN get rid of their evasion boosts. There's no guarantee that they won't just hit you on the switch in anyway. Plus, the Pokemon using Double Team could fuck over the No Guard user anyway.

That's the issue, you're not countering a Pokemon, you're trying to counter a specific move with other, more niche moves located on Pokemon that tend not to be the best equipped to handle it. So then you need more of these mons to handle more evasion boosters.

>>27972329
This, Minimize doubles their base power and makes them never miss. Of course, that still means you're carrying a shitty 65 base power move to counter another extremely niche move, so you're crippled against other mons regardless.

>>27958737
It's fucking annoying

>>27958769
Go fuck an alomalola you retarded cunt.