> A pokemon that absolutely deserves GF's love gets it.

>>27498560
Who cares about weaknesses when you have a god-tier typing though?

Tyranitar has fucking 7 weaknesses (way more than its base form has) and a x4 weakness to Fighting.

Alola Ninetales is probably going to be a physically attacking tank by the way

>>27498560
There's like, few Pokemon that actually attack using steel, right?

>>27498580
4x weak to a priority move is always a problem

>>27498580
Nah, ever since fairies, people have been running steel-type moves.

>>27498594
I don't remember off the top of my head, but is there a Steel priority move?

>>27498600
Shit, that's right. My bad.

>>27498575
How exactly is ice/fairy godtier? It's pretty good against dragons, but most pokemon aren't dragons.

>>27498621
Bullet punch, and mega scizor has access to a technician powered version of it.

80% of Ninetales users were just running her for Drought anyway. Mega Zard (regrettably) obviated her and she's already back to essential non-use; ice typing doesn't save her from that.

I like the design, but Snow Cloak was a bad ability choice. If Alolatales had Snow Warning, maybe she could have carved out another weather-starter niche.

>>27498641
>Mega Scizor
are there even Megas IN Sun/Moon? The trainers all have Z-bracelets. I don't think we've seen anything Mega-evolve in Sun/Moon trailers have we?

>>27498714
is this bait

>>27498560
>implying GF gives a flying shit about the metagame
This is all about getting shekels from kids and autistic people older than kids.

>>27498735
No, I'm serious. It wouldn't be the first time a mechanic was removed.

Do we have any confirmation that Mega Evolution hasn't been replaced with these Z-bracelets, at least for these games, maybe to return in [whatever sequel or reboot comes after Sun/Moon]?

>>27498764
>implying I'm implying

At least I can run it on my ingame team.

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>>27498792
Do you honestly believe they'd spend all that time and money making the megas just to dump them for no reason?

>>27498834
yes

gamefreak is retarded

>>27498792
Yeah I've though about this, no way they'd remove megas but maybe you can only use one bracelet at a time or something

>>27498792
The DNA splicers are still in the games.

I want to see what the general opinion on the variation pokemon is

Please vote here
http://www.strawpoll.me/10889044

Ice/Fairy is not that bad.
>weak to Steel x4, Poison, Fire and Rock
>resists Ice, Bug and Dark
>immune to Dragon

>>27498855
Should have had a "It's my favorite piece of news so far" option.

It is for me, and I've loved almost every new Pokemon revealed so far.

>>27498834
Yes. Because that's how they'll sell the NEXT games, by bringing Megas back, but in a rebooted region without Alolan forms. By your logic, every Pokemon game must contain every Pokemon and form from previous gens... Which they don't. Not to mention overhauled mechanics are common.

And bear in mind, this is the Pokemon gen that (very likely) doesn't have gyms or an evil team or anything like that, either. Or HMs of any kind.

Quite a bit is being rebooted here, and Alolan forms aren't the strangest of it. I don't have any confidence that Megas will appear in Sun/Moon

>>27498846
Point out another removed feature that took the same amount of time and money to make as the megas.

>>27498863
>not that bad
>x4 to fire and rock
>not that bad

>>27498892
>>x4 to fire and rock
wut
what are you talking about

>>27498626
Not to mention, half of the Dragons that are neutral to Ice or Fairy are neutral to both.

>>27498886
well i didn't think there would be that many positive votes when i made it, and it's a little late now

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>>27498892

>>27498926
That's a very small percentage of the Dragon total, though.

>>27498892
Fairy isn't weak to fire you moron, fire just resists it.

>>27498990
nor to rock either, i have no idea where that statement came from

from one of the japanese trailers, eevee was No.123 so going just by half of that we should easily see 60 new pokemon, hopefully the rest is more new pokemon and not just reboot forms

>>27498560
>Pokemon design concepts revolve around the completely made up competitive meta-game where only 12 or so Pokemon make 99% of the teams anyway
>in a game where a Pachirisu and Rotom-Fan won worlds and a Machamp won it the year before.
>in a game about creating analogues for growing up an exploring through regions and monster designs
Yeah, regional species differences are great and it's an obvious step forward and ice kitsune is pretty cool.
Dragon Exeggutor is sort of nonsense since jinmenju aren't even nearly dragon related and that's the closest to legitimate gripe available to the "Alola forms" so far.

>>27499100
they're not psychic either
at this point dragon is what psychic was in gen 1

>>27498792
>It wouldn't be the first time a mechanic was removed.
And what was the first time? Removing the Special stat? Physical/special split?

>>27498676
HA

>>27499131
If anything they didn't remove those, they just added more. Special wasn't removed, it just split into two. Same with physical/special split.

>>27498890
>Spiky Pichu and Cosplay Pikachu being dropped count more than EVERY OTHER POKEMON IN THE GAME
>two sprite/model swaps that do nothing count more than a fucking gameplay mechanic

>>27499106
That's why I said closest to and not "this is a huge problem and I'm an autist who doesn't understand design" like almost every poster on this board does these days.
Psychic sort of made sense, since they're disembodied fruit-heads that act as a hivemind - they'd need to have ESP or whatever.
Dragon makes it funnier and more charming, though, and kids will be really into him now. Exeggutor has always been a personally fave but I've never really used him outside of messing around way back in Blue version because I didn't have any other games... So I'm looking forward to trying him out with his new, long neck.

>>27498676
I hate having to state this so often, but abilities aren't handed around randomly for "competitive viability", they're part of the design of the monster. Snow Cloak makes more sense than anything else for ice-Ninetails.. Like, it really has to have that. Nothing else would make sense. There'll probably be a hidden ability, but don't expect it to be anything other than maybe thick fat or something less useful again.

>>27499217
yeah m8 i wasn't arguing with you, just adding on what you said, sorry if i sounded mad or something

>>27498560
>Alola form Ninetales is stunning
Shut the fuck up. It looks nice, but if you consider the change 'stunning' then you're an absolute fanatical retard.

>>27498594
tell that to Diancie, Garchomp, and Tyranitar

>>27499100
> It's an anon puts words in my mouth episode

I'm not saying Alola Ninetales can't work or that GF was wrong to make it this way. I AM saying it's a nice mon with a good design that won't see much use because of a 4x weakness to steel in a game that just had a strong type that's weak to steel added to it.

>>27498560
Holy shit what's even the point of new type combos if all we're gonna do is bitch about their negatives.

>>27499262
as long as it has more than 100 base speed, it'll be used, just wait and see

>>27499237
Oh, no, I just write with the tone of an absolute dickhead because I am one - I always reply to the good posts.

>>27499262
Hey, you don't know whether or not a new Hail-meta is on the way in with some ultra-defensive ice wall and evasion abilities.
I just write my posts as objective statements because the hot opinions around here are over the top and a lot of the boys don't understand Pokemon designs so the more aggressively and frequently I post stuff, the more silly-billies see the explanations and the less shitters there are... It's like a public service, with all the Go shitters around the place and the new game hype and it being Summer so the kids are here 24/7... I also kill off threads with really long posts.

If only Ninetales had the beefy stats of its Red counterpart. Imagine how good an offensive Ice/Fairy type could be with 555 stat points to work with.

>>27498580
Besides the usual Steel suspects, Mega Medicham notably also carries Bullet Punch and some other pokemon occasionally pack Iron Head/Tail and Flash Cannon.

>>27498626
Stab-wise its going to hit a lot of things pretty hard.

But honestly, all this bitching about having a 4x weakness is stupid. Its not going to shoot to the top of Ubers, but it'll be perfectly fine for in game use, and more importantly to Gamefreak it works conceptually.

>>27498560
I already loved Vulpix and Ninetales, but wow, I am so happy.

>>27498560
It has 4 weaknesses (including a 4x) and 4 resistances (including an immunity), which is the standard and perfectly balanced.

Why are you complaining?

>>27499546
Because it's weak to pretty common moves. I run mega scizor and I get fucked by fire moves constantly. resisting dark is ok, but I hardly ever see bug moves.

Does it still resist fighting? Ice is weak to fighting.

>>27498560
It's an alternate form, not a buff. If anything you should be happy that they aren't so biased.

>>27499678

Ice and dragon are also very common offensive types and Ninetales-A resists the former and is outright immune to the latter.
Bug type has a super-cmmon move in U-Turn so resisting that too is a plus.

About its weaknesses, poison is basically a non-issue because it's one of the worst offensive types, steel might be 4x but it's very easy to see coming so the only troblesome weaknesses are fire and rock in my opinion.

>>27498594
>a whopping 4 Pokemon learn it via level up, 1 of which doesn't get STAB
>can be bred onto 6 different Pokemon, 1 of which gets STAB, and 2 of which actually use it competitive wise
I get that Scizor and Megagross are good, but really?

>>27498594

Only if you're a Smogonfag and Scizor is on literally every team.

>>27499769

You're looking at this in a vacuum.
Even though Ninetales loses 1-1 against Scizor it doesn't mean that a metagame with it is a bad thing.

If you're using an ice/fairy type in your team it means you really, REALLY want a pokemon that can destroy dragon types.

Dragons resist fire, water and electric, three types that walk all over steel types such as Scizor.
Ninetales-A pairs very well with such types.

>>27498792
You are really stupid.
Please stop posting.
This non mega bullshit is same kind of rumor based of nothing, from the same people who said they will be no IV and other bullshit.

Mega are deeply part of the meta game right now, and have been selling argument. Stop your bullshit.

>>27500357
If everyone's IV is easily maxed out with IV training, which it won't be then they might have as well removed IV. It's the same concept as if everyone was an admin then no one is an admin.

>>27500441
Given you need to get to level 100 to IV train, I'd hardly say they may as well have removed IVs

>>27498575
The stats are confirmed to not change though.

>>27500441
That's assuming hyper training is easy. You might as well make the same argument to remove EVs too.

>>27500441
IV are created initially to give each pokemon their own genetic footprint.
People were never supposed to know in the first place, specifically look to modify it.
Gamefreak just did some damage control over time about it, but this will never be removed.

>>27500546
>Implying lvl 100 is anything
That's literally nothing, they might have removed IV if thats all it takes.
It's what it will cost to IV train, not just some tiny bit of lvl 100 grinding.

>>27500357
Yeah, Mega's are here to stay because they create merch, make Pokemon that have faded into obscurity relevant again and add an awful lot to competitive play.

The Z bracelet and moves are probably just for merchandising and to give them something new for Satoshi in the anime to master. They'll probably see how people react to it and flesh out it later if it is well-received. It's just the very beginning of another new mechanic and I can't imagine it'll be all that big a deal anyway since it takes up a held item space and is only good once per battle.

Los Autismos De /vp/ really do try to make up problems and complain about nothing as loud as possible, but if you make fun of them with me then they might realise they're idiots.

>>27500570
>The stats are confirmed to not change though.

[citation needed]

>>27500571
>That's assuming hyper training is easy
That's literally what I'm saying, "if everyone's IV is easily maxed out with IV training."
Also you can't just maximize all EVs, you pick and choose what it should specialize in, there's a difference.

>>27498575
Difference being that one has many good resistances and an ability to help it take special attack, and the other is Ice/Fairy

>>27498560
B-BUT MUH DRAGON COUNTER

>>27500657
You're acting as if breeding for IVs was ever hard anyway. I made perfect IV pokemon all the time, it took like 15 minutes max every go around - which I'm sure is less time than it'll take to use this new feature.
I haven't trained anything to lv100 since Generation 1, either, and I clock hundreds of hours into every game.

You still need to get your egg moves an natures, so you still need to breed your competitive Pokemon and, in reality, who even cares about IVs outside of people who actually go to tournaments? What difference does it make to you personally? Are you sad that the hundreds of perfect Pokemon that go obsolete in your in game PC every generation when new moves and abilities come out are going to be easier to obtain for the average player?

This feature literally just stops people from getting disqualified for cheating IVs onto legendaries. It doesn't really change anything else at all, besides helping people access the competitive element of the games more easily maybe.

>>27500594

I think Z-moves are a way to give pokemon without mega evolutions an alternative with some extra flair

>>27498892
Stop this autism.

>>27500657
>That's literally what I'm saying, "if everyone's IV is easily maxed out with IV training."
That's called "begging the question," anon. We knw they CAN be maxed out, we just don't know how easy it is. We don't know how to get the bottlecaps, how many we need, and how fast the training goes.

>>27500593
In game, yeah, level 100 is something. And in game is what they care about.

Online yes everyone is going to end up with perfect IVs one way or the other so its irrelevant, but thats not Gamefreaks first concern by a long shot.

anything paired with an ice typing is an instant handicap

all of its weakness stack too heavily with everything else

>>27500801
>It took 15 minutes to max every go around
At least pretend like you want to be believable.
>>27500831
I'm saying anon was responding by literally just rewording then making completely different comparison.

>>27498891
Wonder Launcher
Contests / Pokeathlon
Pokewalker / Following mons
At one point, day/night cycles

The stronger argument here is that they (almost) never don't include all mons and forms in the game's code that exist... But they have (e.g. Cosplay Pikachu) and they simply work around this by making the mon untradeable... Which Mega Stones ARE.

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>>27500441

>>27500946
> These items took the same amount of effort to make as the megas

I am skeptical anon

>>27500801
>You're acting as if breeding for IVs was ever hard anyway.
Getting 5-6IV pokémon in gen IV and earlier was nearly impossible, to the point that most people assumed perfect pokémon were hacked by default.

>>27500570
Retard. It says right there on the site that alolan sandshrew is slower than normal but has higher defense

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>>27499279
Because they insist in giving us dog shit combos like ice/rock or ice/fairy instead of good ones like grass/fire or dragon/steel.

>>27498560
Ice type should mirror rock type

>>27500898
>At least pretend like you want to be believable
I don't see the problem, like I legitimately have tonnes of perfect Pokemon and spent next to no time making them.
I'll concede a couple here and there take a little longer - and almost always because I forget about an egg move I needed - but generally 15 minutes is the maximum length it takes me. I do have a 6iv Ditto, though which I use on teams pretty often

>>27501035
Ah, yeah, I used more finality there than was merited. But recently it's been a breeze.

>>27501083
>they should disregard the concepts behind the Pokemon and give them wacky, stronk types and make everything in the game OP as fuck so that nothing is OP as fuck and there's no game any more at all
Yeah, you might just not know anything about design as regards actual character design or game design at all.

>>27500997
But it's not the mega DESIGNS I'm necessarily talking about either, just the mega evolution mechanic.

What's stopping them from just calling it "Alolan Scizor" and reusing the model with reduced BST?

>>27501165
>make everything in the game OP
>Implying grass/fire or dragon/steel are OP
Literally retarded.

>>27498834
you mean like they've done to every gimmick to every gen since 3? yes.

>>27501083
Concept is their first concern you mongoloid.

>>27501234
So then what the fuck is stopping them from conceptually designing fire/grass, dragon/steel, poison/fairy, or one of the other good lesser/non-used typings instead of these absolute trash tier ones you fucking pavement ape?

What if the hidden ability won't change, and it gets Drought while Sandslash gets Sand Rush?

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>>27501083
>removing the best part of the image

>>27498560
Obviously, ice is going to be fixed.
0x
Grass
Flying

.5x
electric
dragon
poison
fairy
bug
ice

2x
Water
Steel
Fighting

And adds offensively SE
Bug
Rock

>>27501269
Nothing. But just because they haven't is no reason to get upset at the ones that they have created. Or do we have an over abundance of things like ice/steel and ice/fairy already?

>>27501339
>do we have an over abundance of things like ice/steel and ice/fairy already?
We don't, but that doesn't change the fact that those are shit combinations nobody wanted.

I'm not saying the Alola forms are bad, but they have shit typing.

>>27500946
>wonder launcher took the same amount of time as the designs and modeling of 48 mega evolutions, new stats, new abilities, new typings, and changes to movepool to get them to work, as well as the huge amount of story-telling devoted to explaining them
>contests were removed in the next generation
>pokeathlon, while great, was more than a collection of simply minigames
>overworld sprites of all pokemon weren't brought back in b2w2 in the entralink
>day/night wasn't brought back in gen iv
Not to mention a change in system led to a lot of these omissions.

As long as it's fast with good offense the typing is a good thing. It only suffers if it's slow or can't hit very hard.

>>27501197
>missing the point this hard
fierce ironic shitpost there, pal. Top marks.

>>27501363
>I'm not saying the Alola forms are bad, but they have shit typing.

For competitive purposes? Sure. But GF doesn't care about that, so there's no sense getting worked up about it. They're just going to think of an concept and build around it rather than the other way.

>>27501269
That is a pretty stupid question, anon.

>concept of Pokemon - the series as a whole
Pokemon is a game about a young person going on an adventure across a new and wondrous place. The Pokemon and general geography are all analogues for the things a real person would encounter while adventuring in the real analogue of the in-game region.
Pokemon was designed with trading in mind and the actual player would then learn more about the designs while they really adventure in real life to trade with real people who will have different life experiences and know what other Pokemon are based on.

>why they won't arbitrarily make Pokemon with certain type combinations to sooth your autism
Pokemon are based on things - hence the word concept.
The combination of things that make up their design a typing. It just so happens that there are type combinations that don't fit any designs thus far. That's literally it. And always remember that whatever counter monster ideas you may have are either bad or don't fit any region thus far or the themes the regions represent as a whole.

Is this advanced spoonfeeding enough for you? Or do you need me to invent a programme that installs the ability to comprehend simple things like intuitive design into your brain?

>27501192
No more (you)s for (you)

>>27498926
Kyurem and Kingdra are neutral to Ice but weak to Fairy.
Dragalge is neutral against Fairy but weak to Ice.
Every other Dragon has a quad weakness.

You must be thinking only of MCharizard X, Dialga and Reshiram.

It's funny because typing doesn't matter as much as you fags think it does. Good stats/movepool can easily make up for that - see Tyranitar, or any grass or ice viable mon.

It's better to have a "bad" dual combination than being a mono type anyway, like say Cradily, Weavile or most flying mons.

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>>27501615
>Cradily
Grass/Rock is fucking great typing. Cradily is shit, not its typing.

Grass is the absolute best thing to pair with Rock. They eliminate most of each others weaknesses. Only steel, fighting, ice, and bug remain.

It's amazing offensively too, Cradily just doesn't have the stats or movepool to back it up.

>>27501615
Yes, but typing hurt when it flies in the face of the meta. And the meta right now involves fairy and its counters.

>>27501700
Kinda my point, dummy. Rock and grass are shit individually, and even though their marriage still ends up having 4 weaknesses and only 2 resistances (less than they have individually) it's still really powerful and Cradily wouldn't have anything going for it without it.

Being a dual type is simply always better. It gives you a lot more options, particularly offensively and in terms of movepool. Even garbage like Abomasnow is better off for being ice/grass (the worst possible combination) than being mono typed of either.

>>27501197
You don't know how type resistances work, do you?

>>27501734
Depends on what the mon accomplishes, desu. If it ends up being a fast, hard hitter [Like Ninetales but with actually good stats] then having a plethora of weaknesses and no resistances really isn't that big of a deal as having 2 amazing offensive type STABs.

>>27501772
I bet you think Empoleon is OP because water/steel is fucking amazing typing too huh?

>>27501764
Mono Fairy is better than a lot of dual type Fairy combos defensively.

>>27501886
Fairy/Poison and Fairy/Steel are GOAT, but yeah generally speaking mono Fairy is OP as shit.

They should make Ice resist and be SE against Fairy.

>>27498560
STAB for Ice and Fairy seems to be good coverage. I can only hope this variant is speedier than the original one.

>>27501992
You can't wallbreak with only 136 attack and you can't sweep with 136 attack unless you can boost. Auto-hail is only option to make it decent unfortunately.

>>27501824
You're an idiot. Dragon/Steel is a very good typing, back in gen 4 it was OP, now it's just very good. Look at Dialga. It's Steel typing covers the two most prominent weaknesses to Dragon, Ice and Fairy, now only normally effective. With Dragon's plethora of resistances, like Fire, it's also normally effective. The point is, the typing is only weak to Fighting and Ground, common, but only two, with plenty of resistances. Couple that with Steel's natural bulk and Dragon's diversity in movepool and usually high BST, well it's a very good type, broken in gen 4, but if we get something like a Dragon/Steel Garchomp, say hello to the new metagame.

>>27501824
No type is "OP", you dullard. Fucking read the thread, that's what it's for.
In terms of competitive - which is not the focus of the games at all and is entirely secondary anyway - a Pokemon's stats, ability and movepool as well as their type determine how "viable" they're considered. And all of these things come from their design, not from some base intent to make super strong monsters.

Ghost/Dark used to have no weaknesses but neither of the two Pokemon with that type were OP. Plus, anyone with any remote amount of competence can build a synergistic team around any Pokemon, regardless of its shitmon status and they're likely to do better than some potato with the copy-paste/meta team that everyone thinks is the best because no one will be prepared for it.

You're literally shitposting. There's no such thing as a "bad" type combination, there are simply Pokemon more suited for battle than others and Pokemon that mesh with more Pokemon than others.

The other main issue here other than it's typing, is it's BST. Granted, Ice/Fairy sounds wonderful offensively, but if it doesn't have the stats to back it up, it's useless. Seeing that normal Ninetales has only a measly 505 BST and only 100 in Sp.D and Speed as it's best stats, it might need a significant buff if they want to put it's nice coverage to work. I honestly don't see Alolan Ninetales being viable unless it gets a nice HA or a stat increase, which should apply to the regular one too.

>>27502205
+10 BST to Ninetales/Ninetales-A, Snow Warning HA

HP: 73
ATK: 76
DEF: 75
S.ATK: 100
S.DEF: 81
SPD: 110
BST: 515

>>27498891
Notched ear Pichu?

>>27498560

If it has over 100 speed it'll be on every team forever. Ice/Fairy is god-tier offensive STAB.

>>27502335
100 Sp.A doesn't sound threatening at all these days. Might as well remove points from Attack and dump them elsewhere. Then again, Ninetales does get Nasty Plot.

>>27502335
More like:

HP: 73
ATK: 76
DEF: 90
S.ATK: 110
S.DEF: 91
SPD: 110
BST: 550

>>27502205

505 BST is fucking plenty. Distribution is more important than total.

>>27502335
it actually doesn't even need that much speed nor that much special attack, since it has nasty plot.
i'm thinking:
HP 73
Atk 74
Def 76
SpA 93
SpD 90
Spe 109

outspeeds garchomp and keldeo, which is the essential

>>27498560
Yes because Steel is a common offensive attack and if it was purely Ice it would definitely tank steel attacks...just like Ninetales does with Earthquake.

>>27502516

Ice/Fairy will not get a chance to set up Nasty Plot.

>>27502516
how are you going to set up with that defences and typing? Unless you can pass sub there's no way anyone lets you set up.

>>27499257
If you don't, you are a fag.

>>27502442
I agree, but I was hoping to not entirely break it like giving it a Mega would have. The goal is to make it better I guess, not OP.

>>27502443
>550 BST
Unless they make regular Ninetales 550 too, I don't really see the point in adding that much BST. It's supposed to be an alternative, right? Not insanely better. This is GF we're talking about though.

>>27502453
>505 BST is fucking plenty. Distribution is more important than total.
Agreed, although they gave some Pokemon in X/Y +10, so I just decided to follow that trend.

>>27502516
That's an alright alternative. Outspeeding Garchomp and Keldeo is a good baseline to adhere too.

>>27498676
>her
>her
>she's
>her
>she

too obvious 3/10

>>27502698
>The goal is to make it better I guess

>>27499100
>>27499106
>>27499262
IT IS A DRAGON TREE, YOU FUCKING RETARDS
GOOGLE IT

>>27502817
yeah that's a very farfetched reference so i think it's kinda unlikely but ok

>>27502737
I should have said "more relevant", which is what I meant.

Alolan forms are potentially a lot less gamebreaking than Megas because:
>Not just adding 100 BST, possibly just rearranging allocation
>HP can possibly change
>Movepool can reflect new typing
>Possibly more than one ability to help
>Frees up item slot

Assuming that half of those are right, adding 50 BST without the burden of holding a Mega Stone AND changing its movepool will make it straight broken compared to the original version. I don't trust GF's judgement either, but if they were going to do that, they should just quit the whole Alolan form thing and give it a Mega instead.

>>27502597
>switch in on garchomp
>it outspeed it and ohko's it without a boost, so garchomp has to leave
>take turn to boost
wasn't that hard

>>27502651
being faster and having enough investment means you can already threaten to ohko without any boosts. it'll come down to prediction tho
inserting ninetales data with typing and those stats we get:
252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 296-351 (91.6 - 108.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
and obviously a ohko with ice beam on garchomp

>>27502924
and this is assuming it won't learn moonblast. because moonblast is a sure ohko

>>27502817
>DRAGON TREE
It's really not, though. It's based on jinmenju and they've made it look a bit like a dragon and there might be a pun in there somewhere, but you're just taking an unrelated thing and trying to force it in.

>>27502924
>>27502954
assuming you're only facing chomp and kaldeo

>>27502924
What does that look like with 100 Sp.Attack?

>>27503100
If we're talking Smogon or Battle Spot, then sure. If it's VGC, until we see the regional Dex and the years rules, we can't say anything yet. There are bigger threats than those two however.

>>27503244
>There are bigger threats than those two however.
That's my point. Smogon or VGC has little to do with it.

I don't think the typing is too terrible.

Offensive:
2x Dark Dragon Fighting Flying Ice Ground
1/2x Fire Steel

Defensive:
0x Dragon
1/2x Bug Dark Ice
2x Fire Rock
4x Steel

>>27502954
>>27503100
What 4th coverage move can we expect from Ninetales-A anyway if we already have two STABs + Nasty Plot?

>Ice Beam/Blizzard (assuming Snow Warning HA)
>Dazzling Gleam (maybe Moonblast?)
>Nasty Plot
>???

Will 'o' Wisp maybe if it can still use it? What about the Fairy-type Z-move if that's your thing?

>>27503100
Well, what are some other major threats?

>>27498575
Ignore them. People are bitching about Snow Sandslash, despite it having 8 fucking resistances AND being imune to poison, just because it has 3 weaknesses. It can be switched in to remove toxic spikes and tank half the attacks in the fucking game, but apparently being shut down by two whole types is suddenly a death sentence. Abomasnow is still a scarey motherfucker, especially in doubles or triples.

>>27503326
Earth Power would be best

>>27503244
>>27503262
Could it take down Mega Rayquaza at least?

>>27503350
I can't see it taking down Mega fug on its own. If it weren't for Delta Stream, it might have. You will rely mostly on team support, hazards and statuses for that.

>>27503304
>le bullet punch face

>>27503468
How many mons can use BP efficiently?

>>27503468
>bullet punch

>Scizor
>Metagross (rarely)
>Medicham (rarely)

That's three relevant Pokémon total.

>>27503534
>>27503555
medicham, lucario and scizor are all very common mega options

say goodbye after scizor forces you out and swordsdances on your switch

>>27498676
Who's to say that it doesn't. Ninetales only has Drought under special circumstances; if there's some sort of dream world equivalent in this game who knows what its alternate will be.

What I'm wondering is did they start thinking and amend the normal version to be a fairy as well. Because given what a kitsune is...

>>27503468
Oh fuck, there's 1 move that's a hard counter to this new pokemon. Welp, nothing to be done about it, into the trash it goes. Shame that said move is only pokemon that this new one isn't effective against anyway. Damn, if one of those three come out you might as well give up. Shame there's nothing to be done about that, you know, like some kind of mechanic that would allow you to replace your current pokemon with one better suited to take on your opponent's.

>>27503679
Babiri berry ;)

>>27501269
>>7501269
There had better be something grass/fire in this world based on Hawaii. If there isn't something based on a tiki torch or a fire dancer I'm gonna be pissed off.

>>27498892
You're thinking of Ice/Bug, anon.

>>27503679
>Mega Medicham
Lowish usage rate and Bullet Punch isn't even the preferred move for the slot. Has to compete with Fake Out, Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, Thunder Punch, and Substitute.

>Mega Lucario
Banned

>Mega Metagross
Doesn't usually run Bullet Punch because it misses out on coverage since you're already running Meteor Mash. 4MSS with Zen Headbutt, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch, Thinder Punch, Grass Knot, Earthquake, Rock Polish.

Personally I really dig the design and I'll likely use it in-game. Vulpix/Ninetales were my Gen 1 favorite so it's cool seeing them get a lot of love again.

As for competitive I think we'll have to wait for stats, move pool, and hidden ability. It's probably going to be a niche mon that fits into gimick teams, but I doubt it'll end up being a super Smogon mon.

>>27503935
That's all very true and I want to agree but gen7 could change meta and many thing can start carring BP.

That being said I want to believe Ice Fox will do great.

>>27503345
But Ninetales can't learn Earth Power and I don't think Ninetales-A would either. Any other solutions for coverage?

Type-neutral stuff that normal Ninetales can learn includes:
>Psyshock (TM)
>Hidden Power (TM)
>Roar (TM)
>Toxic (TM)
>Energy Ball (TM)
>Extrasensory (Breeding)
>Power Swap (Breeding)
>Hex (Breeding)
>Foul Play (Tutor)
>Iron Tail (Tutor)

Extrasensory/Psyshock would be useful on Poison-types.
Hidden Power Fire could help with Steel.
Roar to phaze sounds decent with entry hazards. Hex would be good with Toxic Spikes, normal damage to Steel and Poison types too.
Energy Ball loses value now that its no longer weak to Water and its Ice typing is better for Ground anyway.

Power Swap is good to stop set ups like >>27503679 but who knows how often that will occur.

I'm a little sad Ninetales doesn't learn Psychic, but I guess Extrasensory/Psyshock will have to do for now.

>>27504005
Even if the meta shifts, access to BP is pretty restricted (unless move pools really change).

Other than the BP users listed above, only Machamp, Hitmons, Hariyama, and Toxicroak have access.

>>27504094
Fighting would be better than Psychic coverage. But that's not an option.

Ghost actually almost takes it to perfect neutral coverage. Only Pyroar resists.

Grass adds a lot to supereffective coverage, but barely helps with neutral coverage.

>>27504216
Just to clarify, I think Ghost is the best coverage option that you listed. It's better than Psychic.

>>27504216
>Fighting would be better than Psychic coverage. But that's not an option.
Unfortunately.

>Ghost actually almost takes it to perfect neutral coverage. Only Pyroar resists.
Strange that it can't learn Shadow Ball. Hex would be amazing with a speedy status team though.

>Grass adds a lot to supereffective coverage, but barely helps with neutral coverage.
Grass adds Rock and Water coverage, which is great. Dazzling Gleam doesn't have the BP to overcome bulky Water threats and Ice Beam is the same for Rock threats that aren't part Ground.

I'm interested to hear what you'd think for that final moveslot. The main reason I prefer Extrasensory is because of whatever Poison types you might encounter. That leaves you entirely unable to fend off Steel though, which is a big problem.

>>27504251
Nvm the last sentence, you clarified.
Hex it is then. Now we just need to find a partner that covers its weaknesses and either puts down toxic spikes or can hit with some other kind of status effect while preferably not getting whacked by Hail. I want to say Ferrothorn buttttt....

>>27503935
Bullet Punch is still the most common fourth move for Mega Medicham - HJK and Fake Out are basically givens for it, and Ice Punch is super common. Thunder Punch gets more prevalent and Zen Headbutt falls off as rating increases, but both are below BP regardless. Substitute doesn't get much usage at all.

>>27504376
Alola Nidoqueen if she really is Poison/Fighting? Wouldn't that cover Alolan Ninetales' weaknesses to Fairy/Rock/Steel while allowing her a friend to set up Toxic Spikes for her 130 BP Hex? I hope Alolan Nidoqueen is faster than the normal one at any rate.

>>27504601
>her

>>27498890
>which they don't

With the exception of the pichu and cosplay Pikachu, they actually Have.

Rotom
Giratina
Kyurem
Deoxys
Shaymin
Etc.

Even Keldeo's purely aesthetic forme is made available.

I swear that I've seen the Alolan Exegg before.

Like, someone 2 or 3 months ago posted it and some people said it was obvious shit and then the thread vanished. Anyone else?

>>27503215
obviously much better

>>27503100
well, yeah. you're not gonna stay in on a fucking heatran m8.

>>27503326
hidden power ground for checks, or psyshock/extrasensory/i forgot what psychic moves ninetales learns for general poisons

>>27504636
>implying boys can be elegant
Mine will be a grill, fuck off.

It's fairly obvious that Alolan Ninetales won't see usage, but what about normal Ninetales?

What about the moves that it's going to be able to learn now? A whole new moveset with Ice and Fairy type moves

The Dragon types that normally gave trouble to Ninetales now are going to get rekt

>>27504094

I think it's rather obvious that Alolan Ninetales will keep the fire moves from its original counterpart

Unless it becomes a different egg group

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>>27498560
At least there's some nice porn already

>>27505097
>It's fairly obvious that Alolan Ninetales won't see usage

Lolwhat. A speedy special attacker that can hit half the metagame for SE damage won't see usage?

Remember that Ice and Fairy are valuable offensive types because they're SE against types that are usually given to very powerful mons such as Dragon, Flying, Dark, Ground and Fighting.

>>27500570
How can one be this stupid?

>>27505184

Ice is a shit type

The only ice-type that sees heavy usage is Weavile and maybe Mamoswine

Coverage means jack shit when your typing is just bad

>>27498575
People will zone in on flaws.
As long as Alolan Ninetales is offensive, Ice/Fairy will be fantastic.
If they make it defensive though... well RIP.

>>27498575
>probably going to be a physically attacking tank
>t. your ass

all it does is use special attacks in the trailer. we already have the alolan sandslash for physical attacks. does alolan ninetales look like a physical attacker to you, or should I ask someone with more common sense?

>>27505241

Ninetales was never particularly offensive, its highest stat is special defense

>>27505184
Also if it gets Freeze Dry it's going to be SE against water, another powerful type.

Being SE against water, ground, flying, grass, dragon, dark and fighting with just 2 moves with STAB is certainly impressive and shouldn't be dismissed so quickly.

>>27505241
>>27505261

the only reason Ninetales hits remotely hard is because of Drought boosting Fire type moves and Solar Beam not getting any recharge time

Take away Drought and you can barely make damage to anything with decent special defense

>>27505261
Tied with Speed, at base 100.
Next is Special attack with 81. And then the rest hovering around 75.

>>27505097
>Alolan Ninetales won't see usage
Ice/Fairy STAB is pretty good offensively.
-Dragon/Flying/Grass/Ground/Dark/Fighting
And immunity to Dragons is always nice.
If it gets Snow Warning as its HA like normal Ninetales has Drought, you have STAB Blizzard that can never miss.

You're also forgetting that Alolan Formes might have redistributed BSTs. More Speed and/or Sp.Attack would benefit Ninetales-A highly.

>What about the moves that it's going to be able to learn now?
They might change moves normal Ninetales can learn a bit, but they won't give it Ice/Fairy moves. For all intents and purposes, I think we can assume that Ninetales-A will have its own movepool but share the type neutral moves like >>27504094
They might have a few crossover moves through breeding both other than that, I doubt they'll share exact movepools.


>The Dragon types that normally gave trouble to Ninetales now are going to get rekt
Normal Ninetales won't get STAB for any of those Ice or Fairy moves, won't be immune to Dragon, and worst of all will be outspeed AND mauled by and most relevant Dragons. How exactly does that make Normal Ninetales see more usage? Hell, how does that help it all?

>>27505238
Ice is an awesome type when you get STAB on it and has the right stats, which is why Weavile, Mamoswine and the Kyurem formes are awesome.

Unless you can somehow prove that Ninetales-A is not going to be a speedy offensive ice type you just admitted that it's not going to be bad.

>>27505287

you're really overestimating the words "it's super effective". Coming from Ninetales stats, they mean jackshit.

For fuck's sake, it has to rely on Life Orb AND Drought at the same time to make damage

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>>27505253
Ninetales does use Ice Shard in the Japanese trailer. Not that it means anything on its own.

>>27505164
That's not obvious at all. It's not a Fire-type, why would it learn high powered Fire moves? Stuff like Will-o-Wisp I can see staying because it fits Ninetales' kitsune theme, but if its learning any other Fire moves, they'll be low BP guaranteed.

>>27505359

Weavile, Mamoswine and Kyurem also have huge ass attack stats over the 125 mark

Ninetales has a fucking 81

>>27505238
yeah because they have speed
so does ninetales
literally all ice types are slow af and the ones that aren't are OU/UU
ninetales has enough speed to be UU

>>27505394
You're assuming Ninetales-A will also have 81. They can redistribute the stats since its a different regional variation and it can STILL learn Nasty Plot. All it needs is 95+ Sp.Attack, 110 Speed, and Snow Warning.

>>27505261
>>27505394
nasty plot is gud tho

>>27505429

They have speed and good priority, or in the case of Mamoswine, depend on Focus Sash

Unless Ninetales becomes physical out of butt-fucking nowhere

>>27505460
kyurem-B has neither
it just has a good typing
so does ninetales
ninetales will actually become the fastest ice special attacker

>>27505241
>>27505301
However we do know stats are changing, for example Snowshrew has higher defense but is slower.

>>27505482
Kyurem B has insane BST.

>>27505364
That's because regular's Ninetales fire STAB was complete and utter crap in the generation where it was relevant, due to the superiority of Drizzle and Sand Stream. Its coverage moves were also shit (Energy Ball was too weak and Solarbeam was extremely risky).

Ice and Fairy are just much more dependable STABs.
The former has impressive 4x SE coverage and even against the things it's "only" 2x effective Ice Beam deals a fuckton of damage because ice-weak mons usually have poor SpD (Hippowdon, the genies, most offensive-oriented dragons that don't invest in SpD and so on) and Fairy rounds the coverage by hitting fighting and dark types who could otherwise tank an ice move. Plus if it gets Moonblast that chance of SpA drop is going to screw a lot of things over.

There is a reason Ice is regarded as the overall best offensive type and there is a reason Fairy is considered an overall OP type.

>>27505505
regular kyurem has ok bst (doesn't even use it's attack stat) and it's amazing in UU, which is all i'm saying ninetales will be really

>>27505460
Mamoswine doesn't depend on Focus Sash.
It can just abuse it very well due to its particular typing (immune to both Hail and Sandstorm) and movepool (Endeavor+Ice Shard).

LO is usually the better item, but FS is still good.

>>27505444

Nasty Plot means jackshit, Togekiss also learns it with better defenses and doesn't bother with it

>>27505482

>kyurem-b has neither

are you talking out of your ass? in which fucking world is 170 base attack not huge?

it's double than fucking Ninetales special attack

>>27505551
>speed and good priority
you really should've read the post i was replying to. all i said was kyurem-b doesn't have amazing speed nor good priority.

>>27505482
Kyurem has shit typing. The only thing Kyrem-Black has going for it is the fact that it can Stat Brick its way through most problems.

>>27505525

you were specifically talking about Kyurem-B not having good attack or speed when it has fucking 170 base attack

>>27505551
togekiss actually does bother with nasty plot tho, it's arguabily the best baton passer because of it

>>27505574
no, anon said priority.

>>27505525
Regular Kyurem does use its attack stat if it's running Iron Head for fairies or Outrage on the LO set to get past fat special walls.

But yeah if Ninetales-A is going to have 100+ SpA and speed it's definitely going to have its own niche as an interesting revenge killer/special sweeper. That STAB combo is really scary on something with the right stats.

>>27505565

yeah, and that was following from a post that said that it was specifically the combination of huge stats, priority and speed what made those few ice mons usable

I don't know what the fuck made you think that you can ignore the fact that all the usable Ice-types have base attacking stats over the 125 mark

Assuming Ninetales-A stats are redistributed to this >>27502516 or this >>27502335

How does this sound?:
252 Spe/252 SpA
Snow Warning
Life Orb

Blizzard
Dazzling Gleam
Nasty Plot
Hidden Power (Ground)

SE Coverage:
(STAB) Dragon/Flying/Grass/Ground/Dark/Fighting
(Non-STAB) Electric/Fire/Poison/Rock/Steel

Normal Coverage: Water/Ghost/Normal/Ice/Psychic/Bug/Fairy

Nothing would resist it, correct?

>>27505301
It gets Nasty Plot though

>>27505567
Dragon/Ice isn't shit. It has key resistances and neutralities that allows it to run an extremely annoying SubRoost set. Being able to completely run all over most water and grass types without having to fear their coverage moves is a valuable trait.

>>27505379
STAB Ice Shard is always nice for finishing off low health opponents, even if your Attack stat is low.

>>27505608

and the post before was talking about the combination of attack, speed and priority

are you even following the conversation?

>>27505636
Freeze Dry and Moonblast are also reasonable moves it could learn, just saying.

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So how's breeding going to work? Will Alola Form Ninetales still get Flare Blitz and Heat Wave?

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>>27498560
The important question is: Does it get a mega along with regular Ninetales?

Ninetales has a great movepool but doesn't have the stats to back it up.

>>27505657

if your attack stat is low you aren't going to finish shit, only mons weak to your stab that are going to run away anyway

Lapras could use Ice Shard but doesn't because it hits like a fucking pillow

>>27505636

More like:

Blizzard
Moonblast
Nasty Plot
Earth Power

>>27505700
I think Ninetales and Ninetales-A will just have completely different movepools.

Basically they're going to be two completely different mons that share the same Pokedex number.

>>27505513
Hopefully icetails learns moonblast, freeze-dry, and earthpower for perfect coverage. A dark move would then make her hit nearly everthying with SE

>>27505738
Regular Ninetales can learn Dark Pulse. It'd have to carry over to Alola Ninetales though.

>>27501220
Megas are not comparable to walking pokemon or the dumb little contests you do in every game, you dumb shit.

>>27505736

That would suck. Game Freak should at least pretend they're not running out of ideas and resorting to palette swaps.

>>27505796
what is shiny if not palette swap?

>>27505738
i doubt they're gonna give it earth power

Is there a chance GF could buff ice types this generation?

They sort of acknowledged that steel was a bit too OP defensively last Gen and they had it lose two resistances (steel being strong against fairy couldn't be ignored because of the "cold iron kills fae" thing).

At this point it's quite obvious that ice can no longer be considered the "glass cannon" type because almost every type has extremely powerful offensive users that also have valuable resistances.
It doesn't help that every generation they HAVE to make at least one defensive ice type that almsot never works (I think Regice was the only successful defensive ice type back in gen 3 but that quickly changed with the introduction of SR in gen 4).

>>27505726
Freeze-Dry is absolutely inferior to Blizzard, especially if it gets Snow Warning. Running it just to hit Water-types SE when 100% accuracy Blizzard will crush anyone its SE too and maim neutrals, is kinda silly. Waiting for one specific type of Pokemon to hit 140 BP when Blizzard hits 110 consistently sacrificing much needed power for one type-coverage when practically nothing can resist the Ninetales-A moveset I listed.

As for Moonblast: if Togekiss didn't learn it, I wouldn't hold my breath on Ninetales-A getting it. More Fairies learn Dazzling Gleam than Moonblast, so that much should be a given. Would be awesome if it got it, wouldn't be surprising if it didn't, since it has a weird distribution.

Earth Power isn't likely at all as normal Ninetales can't learn it in any way. Hidden Power Ground is a much safer alternative to guess for until we get the actual move pool.

Also you'll note my list is modest and composed of things either Ninetales can already learn or moves that Pokemon of its type are guaranteed to learn. There are no moves that Pokemon of its type MIGHT learn like Moonblast or Earth Power.

>>27505939
Where is Freeze-Dry on my post?

Also you have absolutely no clue if A-Nineteles will get Moonblast and Earth Power or not. Stop pretending like it's guarantee it won't because regularn Ninetails doesn't get it. It means jack shit.

>>27505939
I think Togekiss doesn't learn Moonblast because GF thinks it would be too OP with both STAB and Serene Grace (and honestly, it would).

>>27505933
I think it's possible but there are types that I think need more help than ice.

Psychic is almost entirely outclassed by Fairy now and Bug, an already shitty defensive and offensive type was made even worse.

>>27506149
>Where is Freeze-Dry on my post?
Meant to add >>27505738 to the post. My mistake.

>Also you have absolutely no clue if A-Nineteles will get Moonblast and Earth Power or not. Stop pretending like it's guarantee it won't because regularn Ninetails doesn't get it. It means jack shit.
I don't know, but instead of going to extremes and cherrypicking a strong move that neither Ninetales can learn of a type neither Ninetales shares, I've picked out a more conservative moveset that might more accurately reflect Ninetales-A's new movepool.

I'm not saying its guaranteed, but I am saying its highly unlikely and Hidden Power Ground is a much better GUARANTEED alternative than just slapping a random move on Ninetales-A until we know more.

>>27506187
While that's true, Moonblast has shit distribution among Fairy types period. Out of 37 Fairy Pokemon, only 12 can learn Moonblast. Pretty much all Fairy Pokemon can learn Dazzling Gleam.

Nothing wrong with undershooting by assuming it will learn Dazzling Gleam (which all Fairies learn) and Hidden Power (which pretty much all Pokemon can learn). If it CAN learn Moonblast and Earth Power, you don't lose anything from assuming it knew slightly weaker moves and then planning around it.

>>27506149
>Hurrr durrr, I sure hope Exeggutor-A gets Dragon Claw even though it has no hands!

>>27506388
Except there's huge difference between using HP Ground and Earth Power and Dazzling Gleam and Moonblast. Most of the time it's a matter of being able to 2HKO things or 1HKO.

A-Ninetails with HP Ground and Dazzling Gleam doesn't look that good on paper even with 90 in SpA. Especially HP ground because it's not stabed.

Same stuff goes for Blizzard + Snow Warning combo. If it's not getting it as HA, it only going to have Ice Beam which doesn't look that scary.

It's important to project now highest potential of A-Ninetails and not underestimating it.

>>27506149
I'm >>27506388
Actually, on second inspection. The only pure Fire Pokemon to learn Earth Power are Slugma and Torkoal, the first evolves into a Fire/Rock Pokemon and they both learn a bunch of Rock/Ground related moves.

There are exactly 0 Ice Pokemon or Fairy Pokemon that can learn Earth Power who aren't also Ground/Dragon/Rock.

Ninetales is a pure Fire Pokemon and can't learn any Ground move at all but Dig. Ninetales-A is Ice/Fairy and no Pokemon from either of those types alone learns Earth Power.

I think its pretty safe to say that Ninetales-A MIGHT get Moonblast, but it almost definitely won't get Earth Power. Hidden Power Ground for coverage it is.

Freeze-Dry MIGHT be an acceptable replacement for Ice Beam if Snow Cloak is its only ability...but if it gets Snow Warning, Blizzard is the best option for that first STAB move slot.

>>27506600
>what is egg moves
>what is tutor moves
>what is move that makes no sense on Pokemon

inb4 Ninetales doesn't learn through egg moves so A-Ninetales also doesn't etc.

>>27506552
It's just as important to NOT overestimate it and hype up a Pokemon that might not be quite as good by giving it moves that virtually no Pokemon of its type has.

Moonblast - Less than 30% of all Fairy-types know it.
Earth Power - Only 2 pure Fire-types know it, one gains Rock-type when it evolves, both learn tons of Rock/Ground moves.

I agree that Hidden Power Ground and Dazzling Gleam don't look great on paper at all, but plenty of Pokemon use both and they aren't totally dismissed because of it.

If STAB Ice Beam doesn't look scary at 95BP, then you should just quit while you're ahead and look for another Pokemon in a higher tier because STAB Moonblast has the same BP and Earth Power won't even get STAB on top of being even weaker than those two. By those standards it'll be bad no matter what way you look at it.

I'm not underestimating Ninetales-A, but I'm also assuming its not working with moves it might not learn in a vacuum with no team members to support it.

>>27506694
I accounted for ALL Pokemon that can learn Earth Power through Tutors/Egg moves. The truth is that not that many Pokemon even learn Earth Power to begin with. Hell, less Pokemon learn Earth Power than even Earthquake which is stronger. Until you can bring some more proof other than: "I want it to learn it or else I think it'll be useless", there's nothing more to even argue about with a move of such bad distribution. The same thing applies to Moonblast.

>>27501083

And if their stats are shit? Stats and move pool make more of a difference than weaknesses.

Can someone explain to me exactly how STAB works?

If the attack type matches up with at least one of the pokemon types, the attack receives a 50% boost.

But what exactly is boosted?
If I have an ATK stat of 50 and a move with a power of 100.
And another pokemon with an ATK stat of 100 and a move with a power of 50.

If both have STAB. Will one get more of a bonus than the other?

>>27506973
both get the same multiplier

>>27506973

it's a flat out damage boost for any attack of a type that matches one of your pokemons types.

>>27506735
Ice beam is 90

>>27507121
>>27507112
So it's a boost to the final damage, after attack power and defensive power have already been calculated?
So after all things have been considered, and the move would deal 50 damage, STAB makes it deal 100 damage, and it has no effect on either the ATK stat or the move power?

>>27506973
1.5x the Base Power of the move. Nothing happens to the Attack stat of the Pokemon.

>>27507165
STAB makes it deal 75 damage, it's a percentage boost you fucking idiot.

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I just hope that it doesn't turn out disappointing like Aurorus did

>>27507136
Right, almost forgot they brought it down. Point still stands though:
If you think Ninetales-A is offensively shit because of its low Sp.Atk and Ice Beam isn't very scary, there's no reason to advocate for Moonblast or Earth Power, both which are almost identical in BP. The latter won't even get STAB.

I think Ninetales-A can succeed even with 90 Sp.Atk and 80BP moves, but I'm thinking about what it CAN do with those limitations not how useless it would be without them.

>>27507214
What happens if Ninetales-A gets Refrigerate instead of Snow Warning?

>>27507262
Literally only useful for Hyper Beam unless Ninetales-A magically becomes a physical attacker. Then you might have some options.

>>27506973
Atk and Base Power both scale proportionally into damage. A mon with 100 attack using a 120 BP move does as much damage as a Pokemon with 200 atk using a 60 BP move. So it doesn't really which is boosted.

>>27498560
>All ice-type are bad
>steel type moves are soooooooooooo common
>No matter what is given, probably never going to be OU again anyway
I w-w-wasn't talking about competitive!
>Then stop having a autism fit over typing

>>27507515

OU list keeps getting smaller and smaller anyway, I think it's time people abandon smogon and come up with a better system of competitive play that doesn't worship defensive combat.

>>27507241
Moonblast is 95 not 90.
Ice Beam is 90.
Blizzard is 120.
Hidden Power is 60...
Earth Power is 90.

nonstab 60BP move for coverage is nothing even comperable to 95 BP stab move with HUGE offensive advantage.

Blizzard, Earth Power, Moonblast is looking nice after 1 Nasty Plot.

HP Ground even after 1 nasty plot won't 1HKO anything unless it's 4x weak and have paper defences.

>>27507577
>Moonblast is 95 not 90.
>>27507241
>both which are almost identical in BP.
>almost identical
>almost
>5 BP difference
>ALMOST

>nonstab 60BP move for coverage is nothing even comperable to 95 BP stab move with HUGE offensive advantage
I never directly compared Hidden Power Ground to Moonblast. Not once. So I don't even know what you're going on about here.

>Blizzard, Earth Power, Moonblast is looking nice after 1 Nasty Plot.
That's cool and all, but you STILL don't know Ninetales-A will get Earth Power, so I'm inclined to stick with moves we know it will learn and how we can make those work instead of playing pretend.

>HP Ground even after 1 nasty plot won't 1HKO anything unless it's 4x weak and have paper defences.
Huh. It's almost like building your team compositions based on what you know your Pokemon can OHKO and what it can't isn't a thing. Oh wait.

>>27507320
(120*1.5)+100 = 280
(60*1.5)+200 = 290

So shouldn't the latter deal slightly more damage?

>>27507577
Blizzard is 110

>>27507758
Dazzling Gleam is 80 BP
Moonblast is 95 BP
>15 BP difference
>ALMOST
For a mon with 90 SpA it's gamechanger

>>27508014
Alright, looks like I'm going to have to spell things out for you since you apparently have poor reading comprehension.

This is what you said.
>A-Ninetails with HP Ground and Dazzling Gleam doesn't look that good on paper even with 90 in SpA. Especially HP ground because it's not stabed. Same stuff goes for Blizzard + Snow Warning combo. If it's not getting it as HA, it only going to have Ice Beam which doesn't look that scary.
See that there? The part where you said that Ninetales-A's Ice Beam doesn't look scary with only 90 BP despite the STAB?

This is what I said.
>If STAB Ice Beam doesn't look scary at 95BP, then you should just quit while you're ahead and look for another Pokemon in a higher tier because STAB Moonblast has the same BP and Earth Power won't even get STAB on top of being even weaker than those two. By those standards it'll be bad no matter what way you look at it.
You see that? I mention that Ice Beam/Moonblast/Earth Power are all so similar in power that your argument about Snow Warning + Blizzard being what makes or breaks Ninetales when it comes to Ice-type STAB can apply to all of its other moves. If you think the BP of STAB Ice Beam isn't scary, then STAB Moonblast and especially non-STAB Earth Power are fucking trivial as well. There's no reason to even discuss how good Ninetales-A might be if we're going by that argument.

Lastly:
>Dazzling Gleam is 80 BP
>Moonblast is 95 BP
>15 BP difference
>ALMOST

This is what I posted here >>27507241
:
> there's no reason to advocate for Moonblast or Earth Power, both which are almost identical in BP
I said that both Earth Power and Moonblast are almost identical in BP. I never said anything about comparing Moonblast to Dazzling Gleam at all so I have no idea why you're quoting me as if I had.

>>27508014
But that's besides the point for >>27508014 anyway. We'll go over it again. There's no guarantee that Ninetales-A will get Moonblast. A quarter of all current Fairy-types get Moonblast. It has what can be considered a poor distribution. Period. However, all Fairy-types can learn Dazzling Gleam.

While that may be a "gamechanger" for a Pokemon with as low Sp.Atk as Ninetales-A might have, it doesn't mean it's guaranteed to get a move that very few Fairy-types get over a move that ALL Fairy-types get.

The same goes with Earth Power.
-Absolutely 0 pure Ice or pure Fairy Pokemon learn Earth Power who are not also Rock or Ground or Dragon or learn some sort of Rock or Ground move through leveling.
-Ninetales learns no Rock or Ground moves through leveling and can only learn Dig through TM.
-Every Pokemon that learns Earth Power can also learn Earthquake. Ninetales cannot even learn Earthquake, the move with one of the widest distributions of all time.

If you can't even consider Ninetales-A viable without pushing for moves that there's a extremely low chance it'll get, then you don't believe it can be viable without them. If that's the case, why the hell are you even in this thread instead of advocating that Exeggutor get Dragon Claw like >>27506456 said? Hell, why even stop there? Why not advocate for Outrage, Draco Meteor, Dragon Rush, and every other high BP Dragon move you can think of.

What if regular Ninetales is now Fire/Fairy?

>>27508418
I agree, it's unlikely that it'll get Earth Power. There's a chance for Moonblast, it's not like they locked that move forever. Some new Fairy types should get it and maybe A-Ninetales is one of them.

Hovever if that's the case A-Ninetales will struggle GREATLY with only 60BP ground move for coverage agains steel types. It has to have 110 SpA to make use of it at +2 after Nasty Plot. I'm sorry but I fail to see how it won't struggle with that and having only 90 SpA. Perhaps in very lower tiers...

>>27508542
Not that guy but you guys all act like being UU or rarely seen in OU is the worst thing that could ever happen to a Pokemon. Let's just hope they swap SpD and SpA and call it a day.

>>27508733
Ninetales is PU or NU now. I don't mind if it's UU, but if they make spDef Avalugg I'd be mad.

>>27507262
useless 2bh

>>27507574
or, ya know, just play UU or RU, both metas are great

>>27507768
WTF LOL. that's not how it works. the attack stat isn't added, it's part of a multiplication.

>>27498560
Any competitive players out there: how important is a Pokemon's typing compared to, say, its moves or base stats? Are some types really more useful in general due to their interactions, or does it even out in places like OU?

>>27508856
typing is important...although you can overcome bad typing with good stats, moves and abilities.

ice type is awful. fairy type is great. snow cloak is awful. ninetales is currently awful and it has a good ability...

so it will probably still be awful if not more awful

>>27508807
There's no way it wouldn't be UU at least with what we've discussed in this thread so far. OU will be stretching it but OU doesn't mean you can't use Pokemon from lower tiers, TECHNICALLY.

>>27508918
ice type isn't awful if you're fast

>>27508856
Outside of STAB, not really unless you're playing the stall game.

Do you think they might be introducing these new Ice-type variants because they've buffed Ice-type somehow?

File: Pokebongs.jpg (62KB, 1200x520px)

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>>27508856
For full disclosure I only really battle friends, I don't do tournaments or anything like that.

IMO moves>typing, and what stats you want are informed by the former. For instance, a physical machamp will have different stats than a machamp that focuses on elemental punches, and a pokemon that knows how to be super effective against several types is better than a pokemon that can only be super effective against one or 2. Typing affects STAB and what's not very effective against you but not much else.

>>27509067
>For instance, a physical machamp will have different stats than a machamp that focuses on elemental punches
>Elemental punches are different from physical
Elemental punches ARE physical you fucking retard. Your bongs are making you dumber.

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32KB, 512x384px

>>27509168
My understanding was that the strength of the elemental punches was based more on SP atk than atk. If I'm wrong then oh fucking well, machamp tears shit up anyways.

>>27508848
So how is it calculated then?

>>27508856
stats and movepool are 100% more important than typing. it's like that that shit typings like tyranitar, which doesn't even get knock off, get to be so good. but typing sometimes becomes the saving grace of a pokemon, like steelix and escavalier (both of which aren't even that good btw)

>>27509320
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Damage#Damage_formula

>>27509005
ice type is the worst type. being fast is good but there is also priority...and rocks...and lots of forced switches.

>>27509047
probably not. both snowshrew and chillpix probably live in the same area. (the snowy mountain)

they are probably version exclusives and that's why they revealed them together.

>>27509272
hah what? they are purely physical attacks.

>>27498560
Pray that it's FAST
Bullet Punch is gonna fuck you up but Weavile is pretty good despite the x4 Mach Punch weakness.

>>27509434
just avoid obvious bullet punchers and ninetales will be fine

>>27509585
>just avoid obvious bullet punchers and ninetales will be fine
Seriously, you'd think every team had a Bullet Punch user with the way these people talk.

>>27509429
I'd known that for about 5 minutes before you made that post.

>>27510016
kinda does: scizor, m-medicham, even in UU with lucario and machamp erywhere. but yeah you can deal with them

>>27510130
>3 Pokemon
>Errywhere

>>27512506

>Scizor
>7th most used mon in usage statistics

>not everywhere

OH I'M LAFFIN

You shouldn't compare normal Ninetails to Alola Ninetails

Rather

You should consider the good shit Alola Ninetails will be to Ice types in general being a fast special attacker

>>27498560
That's not Raichu ;_;

>>27513303
yeah but it's not like breloom doesn't have to deal with brave burd too, and it's still good

>>27513303
>>27510130
>implying I won't run Scizor to compliment Ninetales-A

>>27498890
We're the evil teams. Teams Instinct, Valor, and Mystic. Don't forget Sun and Moon have interaction with Pokemon Go

>>27513767

They never said that

>>27508452
That would make sense and would be most fair imo. Why bother teasing with a dual type allow fork only to leave the original alone as just fire? Also, ninetales gaining fairy type sounds awesome desu.

Can someone explain the fucking Ice thing?

It's a tropical island. How does that make any sense?

>>27498575
>tank

FUCKING DELETE THIS POST RIGHT FUCKING NOW.
ICE TYPE DESERVES A SPEEDY ATTACKER.
GAMEFREAK CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH MAKING DEFENSIVE ICE TYPES, IT ISN'T FUCKING FAIR.

>>27515309
>Hawaii is all 90 degree weather
Kill yourself.

As long as she hard counters landorus I will use her.

>>27498560
>Ninetales has been one of my favorite pokemon for years
>Know it has very lackluster stats but I use it anyway
>Gets a fantastic ability in 5th gen
>Gets a new form in 7th gen

It feels good man. It feels fucking good.

>>27515309
Mountains.

>>27498626

Because Ice Fairy is a great offensive typing.

>snow cloak
It's garbage. Might as well not even have an ability.

GG, gamefreak.

Drought Ninetales is 10x better.

>>27515309

>i don't know what fucking alittudes are

how do you even remember to breathe?

>>27516524
>a Pokemon's hidden ability is better than their standard ability
Gee, who woulda guessed?

>>27498560
You're not thinking correctly OP. These changes were made to accommodate how the Fairy Type is dominating the current meta. With the secondary Fairy Type thrown on Ninetales has no worries as an Ice Type now.