>Masuda allows you to mess with the type matchup chart a tiny

>>27427018
>water washes away/dilutes poison
>is "weak" to it
?

>>27427018
Bug resists fairy not the other way around.

Masuda will love if I make ice weak to fairy

>>27427029
A bit of poison is enough to ruin an entire water supply. Pollution kills fish easily. Your argument would work if the poison in question was something like Muk, but a lot of Poison Pokemon focus on directly injecting poison into the opponent.

Ice resist fairy

>>27427047
> a lot of Poison Pokemon focus on directly injecting poison into the opponent.
The vast minority are that, actually. Most poison pokemon are "toxic gas/spores" or contact poison and there are a lot who are flat out ??? (Gastly? Bellsprout?)

The only pokemon who's corrupting a water supply is... probably Muk, the industrial waste pokemon, and Koffing, the industrial smog pokemon. The rest are natural poisons.

Fairy weak to psychic

Wizards and shit can control supernatural beings and it'll nerf fairy

>it's not even that bad
Water/Fairy: 4× WEAK
Water/Grass: 4× WEAK

Water: 2× WEAK
Water/Fighting: 2× WEAK
Water/Normal: 2× WEAK
Water/Electric: 2× WEAK
Water/Bug: 2× WEAK
Water/Fire: 2× WEAK
Water/Flying: 2× WEAK
Water/Dark: 2× WEAK
Water/Ice: 2× WEAK
Water/Dragon: 2× WEAK
Water/Psychic: 2× WEAK

Water/Poison: NEUTRAL
Water/Ghost: NEUTRAL
Water/Ground: NEUTRAL
Water/Rock: NEUTRAL

Water/Steel: IMMUNE

>>27427030
Fairy/Dark: 4× WEAK
Fairy/Psychic: 4× WEAK
Fairy/Grass: 4× WEAK

Fairy: 2× WEAK
Fairy/Water: 2× WEAK
Fairy/Normal: 2× WEAK
Fairy/Electric: 2× WEAK
Fairy/Bug: 2× WEAK
Fairy/Ice: 2× WEAK
Fairy/Dragon: 2× WEAK
Fairy/Ground: 2× WEAK
Fairy/Rock: 2× WEAK

Fairy/Poison: NEUTRAL
Fairy/Ghost: NEUTRAL
Fairy/Steel: NEUTRAL
Fairy/Fighting: NEUTRAL
Fairy/Fire: NEUTRAL
Fairy/Flying: NEUTRAL

>>27427153
he didn't say bug SE on fairy, retard

poison should be SE vs dragon

dragons are supposed to be some type of "pure" perfect lifeform and poison is decay/waste

and of course poison is shit so its a needed buff

>>27427186
I just glanced at the comment didn't really read it after seeing the type names. Doesn't matter, though.

Grass resists Fighting

ice immune to water

>>27427246
Grass/Dark: NEUTRAL
Grass/Ice: NEUTRAL
Grass/Normal: NEUTRAL
Grass/Rock: NEUTRAL
Grass/Steel: NEUTRAL

Grass: 2× RESISTED
Grass/Water: 2× RESISTED
Grass/Electric: 2× RESISTED
Grass/Dragon: 2× RESISTED
Grass/Ground: 2× RESISTED
Grass/Fighting: 2× RESISTED
Grass/Fire: 2× RESISTED

Grass/Poison: 4× RESISTED
Grass/Bug: 4× RESISTED
Grass/Fairy: 4× RESISTED
Grass/Flying: 4× RESISTED
Grass/Psychic: 4× RESISTED

Grass/Ghost: IMMUNE

>>27427018
Make Ice resist Fighting instead of being weak to it.

There, I fucking fixed it.

>>27427276
think you meant to reply to >>27427244

>>27427018
Nice meme. We've heard this a thousand times and it's still stupid.

>>27427335
Yeah, thanks.
>>27427345
Is it, though? >>27427153
It certainly doesn't break the game.

>>27427402
Wow I still can't quote. >>27427092

>>27427276
That looks good to me

>>27427018
Grass is immune to fairy, grass is super effective against fairy. Fairies can't harm nature. No real reason for grass being SE against fairy, but whatever.

>>27427018
normal now resists fairy

ice now resists normal, bug, grass and flying.

water is now hit SE by poison due to POLLUTED WATER

Poison now resists normal.

make fairy weak to bug

Make bug weak to poison. That's how I usually get bugs out of my house, outside repellent. Spraying them with poison.

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Who wants an ice weakness!

Make dark immune to all because only an unenlightened idiot would hold the idea that darkness is not the true nature of the universe and the source of true power.

Ice is no longer weak to fighting.

Might actually make some of my favourotes viable.

>>27430200
Ice/Dark: 2× WEAK
Ice/Normal: 2× WEAK
Ice/Rock: 2× WEAK
Ice/Steel: 2× WEAK

Ice: NEUTRAL
Ice/Grass: NEUTRAL
Ice/Water: NEUTRAL
Ice/Electric: NEUTRAL
Ice/Dragon: NEUTRAL
Ice/Ground: NEUTRAL
Ice/Fighting: NEUTRAL
Ice/Fire: NEUTRAL

Ice/Poison: 2× RESISTED
Ice/Bug: 2× RESISTED
Ice/Fairy: 2× RESISTED
Ice/Flying: 2× RESISTED
Ice/Psychic: 2× RESISTED

Ice/Ghost: IMMUNE

>>27427506
>>27427153

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>>27427018
>Normal type becomes SE against Fairy type

>>27430200
but Weavile is more than viable, anon

OK How is the metagame now?

Water is weak to Poison
>>27427092
Fairy is weak to Bug
>>27427153

Grass resists Fighting
>>27427276

Fighting is neutral to Ice
>>27430243

Rock is no longer weak to water

>>27430410
Rock/Fire: 2× WEAK
Rock/Ground: 2× WEAK

Rock: NEUTRAL
Rock/Fairy: NEUTRAL
Rock/Fighting: NEUTRAL
Rock/Normal: NEUTRAL
Rock/Electric: NEUTRAL
Rock/Bug: NEUTRAL
Rock/Flying: NEUTRAL
Rock/Dark: NEUTRAL
Rock/Ice: NEUTRAL
Rock/Psychic: NEUTRAL
Rock/Poison: NEUTRAL
Rock/Ghost: NEUTRAL
Rock/Steel: NEUTRAL

Rock/Water: 2× RESISTED
Rock/Grass: 2× RESISTED
Rock/Dragon: 2× RESISTED

>>27427018
Make the Ice Type resistant to Grass type attacks.

>>27430468
We don't need to nerf Grass any more.

>>27427018
Fairy is weak to bugs

>>27430494
>>27430258

I unironically think the type chart is already well balanced and game freak has made all the right decisions.

Is that weird?
I don't see any types as being underpowered or overpowered, and have yet to see a suggestion on /vp/ that would be a good change.

>>27431370
Do you play competitively?

>>27431398
Yes. A lot. All formats from VGC to LC.

I know people cry about fairy types but that's because they don't know how to adjust and only follow smogon viability rankings.
Meanwhile there are plenty of viable pokemon of all types, bug, poison, psychic, grass, even ice and rock though only offensive mons (which are great and would be ridiculous with a buff)

>>27427018
there was a romhack that used the Water weak to Poison chart, in practice it felt pretty solid, lets you diversify your team a bit more for an in-game playthrough
Water should have another weakness, not necessarily Poison, just because of how many there are, it really blows in-game not having a Grass or Elec type

>>27431370
Also, the amount of people on this board that want to buff these types need to consider the pokemon they're affecting.
>wanting Gengar, nidoking, weavile, mamoswine, breloom to be even greater offensive threats
>wanting scizor, heracross, and pinsir to have unresisted Bug STAB moves
>wanting to make ferrothorn, ammonguss and tangrowth even greater walls than they already are

If you can think of something that doesn't absolutely skyrocket the viability of already good pokemon, maybe I'll rethink this

>>27427018
Ice resists Ground.

>>27431670
Can you list the Pokemon that the changes would affect in a good way? Also, can you list the Pokemon who get nerfed with these changes?

>>27431723
Which change specifically. Pick one because any change will cause a big shift.

>>27431746
These five. Please give me the best and worst case scenarios for each.
>>27427092
Water is weak to Poison
>>27427153
Fairy is weak to Bug
>>27427276
Grass resists Fighting
>>27430243
Fighting is neutral to Ice
>>27430464
Water is neutral to Rock

>>27431776
>Water is weak to poison
Poison is already a surprisingly good neutral type. Decent both offensively (hits fairy super effectively and most types at least neutrally) and defensively, minus the ground weakness. Not to mention, a lot of poison moves carry a poisoning side effect.
You now have pokemon like toxicroak, drapion, and Crobat absolutely destroying their tiers which are chock-full of water types (this is just because there's so many water types in the game).
Gengar gets a huge boost and not even sp.def rotom-wash can take care of it anymore.
Overall I just really don't see the need for this. Water types don't need a nerf, poison types don't need a buff, especially since fairy was introduced.

If anything, it's scald that needs a nerf.

>>27431776
>Fairy is weak to bug
God no. This is one of the worst suggestions that always gets posted here.
Scizor now has both stabs killing fairy types, you can't even safely come in on a U-turn. Speaking of U-turn, now it's even more viable and it's already a hugely centralizing move.
Mega-heracross now has unresisted coverage. Yeah, fuck that.

I mean, the bug types that actually need a buff don't really benefit from this much at all, I can't think of any. Most would rather get a stat boost, and others already have poison coverage anyways.

I'd put bug in the same group as ice. On paper, the type doesn't look great, but the pokemon that make good use of it, use it really fucking well.

>>27431776
>Grass resists fighting
Eh, no.

Grass is already a fantastic defensive typing, even if it's mainly for the moves they get. But imagine a ferrothorn with one less weakness (now only weak to fire I believe). Amoonguss getting a double resistance, tangrowth, an already incredible physical wall, being able to resist one of the most physically oriented types.
And fighting is already having trouble keeping up as a coverage option thanks to fairy.

>>27431871
This thread is for types. Would it be so bad to have Toxicroak, Drapion and Crobat higher up? How long would they stay in the higher tiers? Let's say Gengar goes up a tier. It is inevitable that a few Pokemon that are already good become better. I still want you to list positive changes, though.
Btw, I can't see a Cross Poison Crobat being that big of a threat when most Water types have Ice Beam and Rotom Wash has Thundebolt.

>>27431973
Grass is ONLY good in cores because water is so absolutely monstrously OP that anything with a water resist is valuable.
Grass is resisted by everything and their mom.
Hit supereffectively by everyone and their dog.
And hits fuck all super effectively.
It needs a buff and water needs a hard nerf. Water needs to get fucking gutted.

>>27431979
>wanting to buff m-gengar in any way
We don't need more company for mega fug in AG

>>27431973
>Grass is already a fantastic defensive typing
It's not. Ferrothorn already has Iron Barbs and sometimes Rocky Helmet, using a Fighting type move on it is not really a good option right now either. When it comes to Amoonguss it really doesn't matter how much it resists a type. Tangrowth can move up a bit. That's why we are having a Fairy nerf as well.

You still don't take positive changes into account.

>>27432039
Arceus Water, Greninja, Palkia and the Kyogres are the only ones affected by this change.

>>27431979
Crobat is already a great antimetagame pokemon. Base 130 taunt, defog, brave bird. Immune to earthquake and resists fairy, the "in" type. Also has infiltrator and is one of the best answers to serperior. Now it can run a banded set easier too.

It wouldn't be bad, and all three of those pokemon are already extremely viable.
Positive changes? I dunno if you think those are positive changes then there's that.

>>27432004
You have to be kidding if you really think water is that OP. There's 8 in OU, but even then, none of them are as OP as you seem to think.
There's already so much out there working against water types you just fail to realize since you probably look only at "viability". Dry skin, storm drain, water absorb, sunlight, grass types, other water types.
>>27432070
Because there are no positive changes?

>>27432087
>poison SE to water
>gengar, a ghost/POISON type is unaffected
Did you miss the part where the WATER type Rotom no longer checks the uber with access to powerful poison STAB?
You bitch that this guy is ignoring the positives while you ignore the huge negatives of already top-tier threats becoming more unstoppable!

>>27432039
>GF gives Gengar an insanely powerful Mega with Shadow Tag
I highly doubt they give a shit about actually keeping that thing balanced.

>>27432106
You must be joking.
You don't think that Slowbro, Rotom Wash or Azumarill are OP but think that Toxicroak, Drapion, Crobat and Tangrowth are extremely viable.

Using this mindset I understand why you can't see any positive changes.

>>27432106
Water has 3 resists. 3. One of them being itself, the other being dragon and finally grass.
Scald is THE most dangerous move currently in the game.
Keldeo was absolutely retarded because there was very little that could resist its hydro pumps.

Dry Skin, Water Absorb and Storm Drain are all exclusively on terrible pokemon.

Sun is still the second least common weather despite having a drought mega in OU.
There is very little working against water types because they're Masuda's pet types.
Offensive water types have dominated almost every meta game. And if the offensive Water Types aren't doing it, then it's the defensive water types. The type does too fucking much. Amazing neutral coverage. 2 weaknesses and pretty much all of them get Recover just for existing.

>>27432135
Then it goes to AG making it an actual tier now. What's the problem?

I'm not bitching in any way. I'm asking him to list positives and I'm trying to understand what he thinks is viable or overrated. I'm also not ignoring anything. I'm just waiting for other arguments that either support my supposed change or don't.

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>Grass Pokemon now get access to Earth Power just like every Water Pokemon can learn Ice Beam
How much does this buff Grass Pokemon?

>>27432313
Immensely.

If every fucking water type can learn ice beam, then every grass type should get Earth Power and every fire type should get thunder bolt/grass knot or some shit.

>>27432313
No, no, Grass is supposed to be a defensive typing. Don't do this to my meta. Change never brings any good. GameFreak has it covered. The game is already very well-balanced.

>>27432161
Kek are you for real? Do you even play the game?

All three of them have been slowly falling out of favour for a while now, hell, Azumarill can't keep up now thanks to the rise of poison coverage and poison types. Rotom-wash suffers from 4MSS, and slowbro is two thunderbolts to death. What? Toxicroak can switch in on any of their water type moves and OHKO with gunk shot now? Woah.

And you're an idiot if you think those pokemon aren't viable. Crobat for the reasons I mentioned, drapion has a great typing, move pool and stat spread. Tangrowth can function as a wall, offensive mixed powerhouse (again, with an incredible move pool), or utility Mon.

You say I can't see it, but it looks like you're the one without any understanding.

>>27432205
Yes, so I propose that scald deserves a nerf, rather than the water type itself. (In the same way I do with knock off and the dark type)
And there you go, pretending the game is limited to what's on your tier list and the viability rankings. Plenty of viable pokemon can take its hydropump, just explore some more.

And if it still isn't enough for you, maybe the problem is that water types just get too good of movepools, which I can kinda agree with. No reason every single one should have access to scald recover and ice beam. In that sense, yes water types have too much going for them, but the type chart itself is fine.

>>27432327
A defensive type with unreliable recovery, awful distribution of support moves, terrible utility move pools and 5 weaknesses.
Yeah real fucking defensive.

>>27431444
Oh, I remember you from earlier threads. Fuck off faggot.

>>27432345
Leech seed wasn't enough? You want them all to have spore too?

>>27432359
Wasn't me kiddo. If you don't want to actually discuss and just want to spout out your meme ideas then you can go ahead.

Or are you still mad you lost to belly drum Azumarill?

>>27432328
>idiot
>one without any understanding
I really hoped that you could keep it more civil. I said that you think they were "extremely" viable while you said none of the Water types are as OP as they seem.
>>27432327
Yes, fantastic argument.

>>27427018
Make Rock resistant to Ice, or Bug resistant Psychic.

>>27432385
Yes, I think they are extremely viable while none of the water types are as OP as you seem to think.

?

And sorry, just seemed like you were taking everything I was saying and trying to flip it over my head.

>>27427018
Ice resists Water. Needs some sort of resistance, and blows my mind this isn't already the case.

>>27432345
Read it here. >>27431973
>>27432380
>Leech Seed is reliable recovery now
>saying they are not good defensively means they all need Spore
>assuming user got BTFO'd by Pokemon and now hates everything about assumed Pokemon

>>27432380
You'd be surprised how many grass types don't actually learn Leech Seed.
Spore SHOULD have larger distribution. It's ridiculous that such few pokemon learn one of the few good grass utility moves.
Synthesis isn't reliable and has awful PP.
Very few grass types learn things like Taunt.
The Powder moves are incredibly unreliable.
Grass types rarely get moves that aren't grass type or Slam/Tackle.

>>27430263
>Hydreigon used Hyper Beam!

>>27432380
>Grass is an amazing defensive type
>when shit like MegaZard and Talonflame are running around
Grass needs a buff, Leech Seed isn't enough to work around 5 weaknesses and getting fucked up by water types, the type it's supposed to have an advantage over.
The common thread that hampers Grass types is the fact that they have no coverage moves. They have grass and normal type attacks and that's literally it. If they had Earth Power, they'd at the very least find some kind of offensive niche.

>>27432418
No one ever said leech seed was reliable recovery dude.
It's an incredible disruptor/utility move that only grass types are immune to.
Synthesis is good for what it is.
I can't make out what the rest of your post is supposed to be.

>>27432432
The powder moves really shouldnt be spore levels of reliable. Spore is insane.
And for your last point, I find it hard to agree. I mean some grass types fall under that, but most have a decent spread of utility, recovery and defensive moves at the very least. And a lot do get earthquake or sludge bomb. There are some awful outliers like Liligant though

>>27432484
A lot do actually have earthquake. Just not the shitty ones that game freak hates.

Grass now resists fairy.
Poison is no longer resists grass and is no longer supereffective against grass. Water now is resisted by Poison and is weak against poison.
Grass hits and is hit by Flying neutrally.

Ice resists Ground and Flying.

Fighting, Ground and Bug types now resist Steel

Bug Resists Dark and Ghost


Rock types do not take damage from entry hazards

Game is fixed.

>>27432495
Synthesis is NOT good for what it is. It is worse in every single way compared to Roost and Recover.

>>27432414
Thing is I keep asking you for something. Notice the positives as well. You said that there aren't any, which is a huge exaggeration.

Instead, you call me an idiot and someone who has no understanding even though, most of your replies have been criticized in this thread. Not just the usual way, people are bringing up good reasons.

Fairy resists dragon.

Fairy is weak to fire.

>>27432495
Only 10 fully evolved Grass types get Earthquake. Even fewer get Earth Power.

The powder moves should have reliability on the level of Will-o-Wisp considering that there is a dedicated item for dealing with them.

Synthesis is terrible compared to every other recovery move that isn't Pain Split.

>>27432495
They mentioned no "reliable recovery" to which you answered with Leech Seed. Synthesis is not that good.

A lot get coverage moves. Some don't. It's the other way around.

Water should be weak to Ice

Give Ice a fucking resistance that isn't itself

>>27432495
I looked it up and outside of starter Pokemon, only about 4 learn Earthquake.
Outside of Torterra and Cradily, none of these Pokemon are worth anything with EQ. Even less Pokemon get Earth Power.
Compare this to the heaps of Water Pokemon that get Ice Beam (I'm pretty sure any water Pokemon that can learn TMs can learn Ice Beam) and you have a massive disparity between the two types.

>>27432560
That was in response to "awful distribution of support moves.
And yes synthesis may be the worst of the bunch but it's by no means bad. Just having it is a boon.

>>27432559
That's a fair compromise. So long as it's not 100%.

>>27432629
I know I keep bringing tangrowth up but it's a great eq user.
So what do you think the solution is here? I think limiting Ice beams distribution and nerfing scald is all that's necessary.

>>27432524
I say I can't think of any. If you can I'm happy to discuss it.

>>27427018
Ice loses the rock weakness.
Glaciers carved valleys out from mountains, man.

>>27432675
>>So what do you think the solution is here?
The solution is giving Grass Pokemon Earth Power so they have a chance to keep up with the meta. There are so many Sp. Attacking Grass Pokemon that get nothing outside of their STABs like Lilligant and Roserade.

Buffing the Powder Moves would help as well, because as it stands, Water is actually better than Grass types at spreading status thanks to Scald. Spore is a special case since only 2 viable grass Pokemon can learn it.
If I had it my way, Grass Pokemon would be able to learn a burning powder move with 90% acc, but alas.

>>27432675
>I say I can't think of any. If you can I'm happy to discuss it.
So far all of the positives I mentioned you said they weren't positive.
You said Grass was a good defensive typing. Which it isn't. You said a lot of Grass Pokemon learn Earthquake. Which is not true. You ignore a bunch of points made against your claims.

The whole point of these changes is to give types weaknesses/resistances they didn't have before. Your whole argument is that they don't need these because the meta is fine. Which it isn't. Since you aren't willing to accept the basic ideas behind these changes. (Grass being bad defensively, Water and Fairy being good defensively) nothing I will say will stop you from telling false information or help understand my and others' points.

>>27427018

Have Grass and Bug resist fairy cause why would fairies harm nature?

>>27432733
I'd love it if the burning powder was called itchy powder or something.

>>27427699

That's fine because steel trades its resistances for the 3 most common attacking types in the game.

All ice needs is more offensive ice mons and a resist to flying.

>>27432327

>defensive typing
>5 weaknesses

now you're gonna tell me poison is an offensive typing.

>>27432953
>>27431871

>>27432733
Good suggestions, I like you.
I think your suggestion, alongside nerfing scald should do good.

Also give Powder to a few more pokemon.

>>27432765
What positives did you mention? Genuine question, I don't see any.

Also, for some perspective, look at the water types that are viable below OU, they all have a much harder time surviving, and most have clear cut hard counters.

>>27432953
>>27433004
It's a good neutral type. Not bad offensively or defensively.
Its resisted by 5 somewhat common types and resists 5 very common types.

>>27427727
ouch, don't cut me now

>>27427499

Normal immune to Fairy? Nah.

Flying SE to Fairy since fairies thing Bug types are cute (and to give Masuda a giant middle finger for introducing the Fairy Type to counter dragons)

>>27432434

ALL MY YES!

Normal should be SE against Fairy!

>>27432507

>Opponent sent out Azumarill
>FDT sent out Sceptile!

Opponent: I miss the days when Sceptile was completely checked by Azumarill...

>>27427018
Ice-type is now immune to water

Gives ice-types a much needed defense boost. Particularly against a common type and provides a way for ice-types to switch into threats unharmed.

nerfs watermons who's offensive power is already very safe and easily spammable

ice/water attack combo becomes less prevalent. Water/??? will have to be used over water/ice or else ice pokemon wall you.

Water times not using icebeam as much for coverage means defensive grass pokemon are indirectly buffed as well. Grass mons dont like to switch into water due to the omnipresent water/ice combo. Now that water/ice is less common, grass pokemon are better defensively.

lastly, fuck scald.

Ice type resists ground.

>>27427018
>Masuda
>ever nerfing Water
He probably beat the shit out of whoever came up with Primal Kyogre.

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>>27431973
>Grass is already a fantastic defensive typing

>>27427030
Yes

>>27427018
Grass is now immune to Fairy.

Boom. Grass is now viable and Fairy is less oppressive.

>>27427699

Freeze-Dry makes me think Water being weak to Ice makes sense if it's freezing water.