How would you make a Pokemon game challenging without just

>>25711053
Decent moveslot/teambuilding is a pretty good start. It doesn't need to be hard, but shit like the E4 and later gym leaders not having full teams is straight pants-on-head retarded.

Slowly introduce trainers challengers that utilize gimmicks, weather, and hazards.

No more piss easy gyms. Leaders have at least 4 pokémon on a team.

E4 and champ utilize a mega.

Post game with increased AI and challenge mode gyms

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have you considered not grinding

>>25711053
AI

Just do what the console games do. Eliminate levels and adjust the ai/movesets of enemies as you progress until you can comfortably battle against human like perfect pokemon.

>>25711079

I've been wanting more challenging trainer battles for years. Instead of having 30 brain dead idiots on a route, only have like 4 or 5, but give them challenging teams with synergy. Maybe one team that revovles around baton pass, or a team that uses weather, or a triple battle that spams surf with two water absorbers. Then give an exp bonus for beating those trainers so there are less battles, but more difficult. Basically every trainer can be a mini gym leader

Stop this shit of a horde of trainers that are apparently trying to become masters, but still have 3 caterpies and a metapod, or trainers that are in victory road that still have level 40 burmys.

Not make the difficulty limited to strong trainers. Make it be like gen 1 where you had to catch X number of Pokemon in order to receive items. Run errands for NPC's i.e delivering mail and receiving rare items because of it. Give gym leaders more than 3 Pokemon. Increase the catch rate of legendary Pokemon. Increased post game content. Put in complex caves and mazes.

Have an AI that won't spam growl when they have a STAB / SE move against you.

Marlon's Carracosta on challenge mode could have become one of those things that pokemon players fear, but he's an idiot.

Just play Blazeblack 2, that's the perfect pokemon experience.

>>25711106
I'm working on making a game, not playing an existing one.

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>>25711053
>that Steelix
I never want to see the full picture where that thing came from ever again

Just make the AI more challenging and utilise tactics like weather etc more.

Also probably go past the monotype gym leaders and elite 4.

>>25711124
>Eliminate levels
This

>>25711128
I really like the idea of team synergy. Makes the game both challenging and creative.

Super strong bosses that aren't regular pokemon or aren't even pokemon that you'd use three pokemon at once to fight.

>>25711129
I was going to make more ways to level up than just grinding, and at the same time make side mission stuff more valuable to make the world seem more like the original anime, where people had jobs beyond just battling. You can get rare candies and EV up items for breeding certain Pokemon for breeders. Police will ask for donated growlithes, healers want certain healer Pokemon or rare healing items. Is that a good idea, or is there any changes I should make to it?

Prevent Pokémon from gaining experience from fighting anything X levels below them. That way you CAN'T grind, and you have to play well. Then enemy levels actually matter in difficulty determination

>>25711053
Boss battles with unique abilities and weakness, also you can't capture this special pokemon or they turn into normal ones after catching it.

limited experience

periodically you must trade away one of your pokes

>>25711053
>Opponent CPU's will switch out Pokemon (not every turn or else it could become a problem) if their Pokemon are at a clear type disadvantage
>Better team building for average trainers to make the change above more effective
>Only certain trainer types have a single Pokemon in their team (chumps like Alan, for instance)
>Gym leaders have dedicated EV training
>E4 have flawless Pokemon
>All CPU's sport better average movesets.

>>25711155
then just go with the Reborn way where all pokemon stop obeying when you reach a level cap, but at the same time don't make the teams too powerful so people won't need to get close to the level cap as possible

>>25711266

inb4 they bring back dark pokemon that have special abilities and shit.

>>25711173
Uncomfortable seeing Jasmine with giant feet?

>>25711129
Or how about helping people with their sick Pokemon like in gen 2? That should really be brought back.

Intelligent AI.
Viable movesets, varied rosters, balanced levels.

The only thing that bothers me about Volt White is the AI, but that could just be because it was against Bianca and on purpose

>>25711318
You mean Shadow Pokemon?

>Smart AI
>Trainers, Gyms, E4, Champ switch out Pokemon
>They heal those Pokemon of status issues, low health, etc.
>Teams have more Pokemon
>Important people have good EV/IVs like Cynthia
>Good movesets (weather, hazards, etc.)
>Higher levels than what you're used to (Such as say Brock being Lv. 17-18, not too difficult, but just enough considering you don't want to grind that long on Lv. 5s) and those few levels make a difference
>Stop putting the Gym's type weaknesses right outside the gym to catch
>If you lose against say an Gym or E4 member when you fight them again they might have a slightly different team to adjust for your team's type set-up
>Stop having rivals and doctors/nurses at every corner to heal your Pokemon, it makes items fucking useless, have the rivals actively trying to beat your ass like Blue tried at opportune moments
>etc.

There are tons of ways to fix Pokemon, GameFreak will not do it though because they still see it as a game for kids, even though a lot of their playerbase is aging.

The problem is that when GF makes stuff actually hard, they go too far in the other direction.

Like in the Maison, eventually they will just throw shit at you that perfect counters your 6IV fully EV trained best moves mega, because fuck you.

>>25711546
>Stop putting the Gym's type weaknesses right outside the gym to catch

Up until Gen 5 this was never a huge issue. Then suddenly literally outside the gym there's a guy saying "man, this leader would be hard if I didn't go over here and catch X. Now they can't even touch me!" At least Gen VI if there was a weakness outside the gym, the game didn't outright tell you it was there.

>>25711546
I think limiting item usage in-game wouldn't be a bad idea either. I remember when I was younger Lance was pounding my asshole with a dragonite and I pp-stalled him out like a shitter using my 40 revives. Something like having quick-slots that you can put some items in, and in-battle items not called pokeball get used in those slots and can't be used in battle if they're not in the slots.

Maybe even buff the X-Items or even increase even more powerful stat boosters, which also use up a slot.

>X-Attack buffs 1 stage
>Y-Attack buffs 2 stages
>Z-Attack buffs 3 stages

Item usage/resource management in pokemon is really lax as is, I'd like to see them do something with it.

>>25711173
Does it actually have eyelashes in that one?>>25711053

>>25711582
Are we ignoring Mankey before Brock in Yellow? Or Oddish/Bellsprout before Misty? Or Geodude right before Violet City? Machop and Gastly before Whitney?

Pokemon has been doing this since the very first games. You might have only just noticed it with gen 5, but this shit has been going on for years.

>>25711683
I want them to be rare and maybe 2 routes before, so it takes a bit more to find them.

>>25711124
What do you mean "human like"?

There was a thread where I discussed with another anon how it would be if an auto-adjusting of the level were implemented.
This is, to put it quick, if your pokemons surpass the level of the trainers of an area they all get readjusted to a similar level, so you can be underleveled, but never overleveled.
This came from an old idea of mine from when I played FFTA2.

It was quite a long conversation where we discussed how such a system would be implemented and the difficulties of it.
It's a shame I can't find it on the archives now, it was like 2 years ago I think.

>>25712034
Hmm, you dont possibly remember any details of how yall planned to implement it? Its a stellar idea if I could just figure out how to go about it.

>>25711053
Smarter AI, and forced battles to "set".

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tl;dr: Pokemon's natural movesets should be limited, and TMs shouldn't be reusable until the post-game.

What made earlier generations so difficult was the fact that almost all Pokemon would only learn some Normal and STAB moves by level-up, with some added bonuses if you were lucky. Players had to rely on TMs to bolster their coverage and viability, and even then, you had to plan ahead about which moves to give which pokemon. There was a strategy involved about which Pokemon would benefit the most from a given move, and you couldn't just teach every Pokemon awesome moves limitlessly (the only exception were the TMs in the Game Corner and Dept. Store)

There's a lot less challenge nowadays because so many pokemon have less limits and can learn moves of great variety, even by level-up, and reusable TMs mean that you can give everyone the coverage and power they need with no thought or hesitation, especially since you can just undo and redo TMs at leisure. Think back to FireRed and LeafGreen; Brock's Onix was a formidable foe for anyone who chose Charmander in Gen I but in Gen III, they gave it Metal Claw to compensate.

I love reusable TMs from a competitive standpoint because of how many options it gives players and how viable it can make certain Pokemon, because prior to that, I (and tons of other people) would just hoard them, afraid to lose them forever. But from an in-game standpoint, that one-use mechanic forces players to think and commit to their TM useage, especially when that's the only way some pokemon can get varied moves. Maybe when a player uses a TM, instead of losing it, they just deactivate it (but keep it) and in the postgame they meet a character who upgrades their TMs for unlimited use.

Also, I had a friend suggest an optional area in the game I'm making where Pokemon are essentially "feral" Pokemon that are high level and have strong IVs. At the end of the optional route is like a shiny encounter or good legendary or such. The catch is that the Pokemon in the area can actually kill, much like in a nuzlocke. Any ideas how to implement that?

>>25711683

In fairness

>Mankey before Brock in Yellow

You have to train him up to use Low Kick for him to be worth anything

>Or Oddish/Bellsprout before Misty

Their stats aren't great and do need leveling up to beat Starmie

>Or Geodude right before Violet City

While true, a part of me doesn't want to count this because a stiff breeze could beat Falkner, let alone type advantage.

>Machop and Gastly before Whitney

This, I'll definitely concede. Machop pretty much exists so that you can hard counter Miltank, and for that matter you can get an Abra in the Game Corner there to hard counter Morty since he uses dual ghost/poison.

>>25712231
Or could I possibly have every TM buyable at affordable cost in the endgame? Like near the battle tower? I like this idea, of limited use tms during game, and then have them fully available for competitive.

>>25712185
Our main issue was the moveset:
Obviously the difficulty in "in-game" pokemon is not only about levels but also about gaining better moves. It doesn't matter if you never get overleveled if the trainers are going to keep "string shot" and "tail whip", so to speak.
So trainers must also acquire better movesets, the problem resides in that this cannot be done automatically if you want for it to work correctly; so a great part of that conversation was about how there would be "level thresholds" where the moves would change and about the difficulty and (incredible) time consumption of having to make several movesets for each trainer.


We also had another big issue because we were talking about the possibility of a game that let you more freedom to choose where do you want to go first (like choosing one path, route or zone first, and the game changing with that choice), which multiplied the problem of the moveslots.

>>25711053
Good movesets with battle facility rules for gyms and E4 so all of a set level so you can't just steamroll due to grinding.

>>25712226
I played through Emerald with Set battle style. It's a little harder and definitely more faithful to how Pokémon matches should be played. The one issue is that training low level Pokémon is more difficult since you can't easily switch them in and back out.

What could be done, is have battle style Set obligatory for important matches (Gym Leaders, E4, rival). That way the battles that matter will be more difficult while still being able to grind efficiently on the normal trainers. The downpart is that you could easily forget this is a feature and accidentally play your cards wrongly.

>>25712231
>Brock's Onix was a formidable foe for anyone who chose Charmander in Gen I
Not really, it had no rock moves back then so it'll die to like 6 embers, and all you had to do during Bide was spam Growl. It was Gen 3 that gave it Rock Tomb and suddenly it could do serious damage to fire types

>>25711053
Massively lower XP from wild Pokemon, and dramatically increase trainer XP.
Make the routes between gyms have a fixed amount of trainers, and the challenge is exploring a large segment in search of trainers. Since there is a fixed number of trainers and wild mon are inefficient, levels are more normalized and gyms can be set a certain amount over the expected player level.

Better battle AI, Gym Leader battles will be 4v4 picked from a pool of 6v6. Have Gym leaders have out of region Pokemons to have better coverage and there for be more challenging.

>>25712282
Also, have gyms with more gimmicks like weather, hyper offense, stall. Maybe even have various teams for Gym leaders that change depending on Player level and Pokemon.

The challenge was never in the single player, it was always in team building and fighting other people.

I'm not the biggest fan of Gen 5, but it's clear it was the first time the devs actually gave a shit about the single player experience beyond "do the same shit you always do so that you have an excuse to catch the pokemon you need to trade/battle your friends"

>>25711258

On the flip side, that would make leveling up weaker pokemon a lot easier. Just lead with your weak mon, switch to your high level pokemon to KO it, then the weak mon gets full experience points because your high level mon can't receive EXP by beating it.

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Longer dungeons.

People shit on Sinnoh for being so slow and grindy but damn, man, Mt. Coronet was a fucking gauntlet. I love how you work all the damn way through the mountain and you think you're finally out, but then you're only halfway through and the rest is covered in fucking fog.

I loved Sinnoh. Such an adventurous region.

>>25711053
Level cap that unlocks 10 levels each badge.
Raise level of trainer's pokemon.
Keep all good tm's post game.

>>25712267
That is something else I was looking into. I have my HMs limited to 4: Cut, Strength(which is now combined with rock climb and rock smash) Surf (combined with waterfall), and Fly. so I was either going to need to get creative with route obstructions or let people move around a bit before beating certain gyms.

>>25712282
>Massively lower XP from wild Pokemon, and dramatically increase trainer XP.
>Make the routes between gyms have a fixed amount of trainers, and the challenge is exploring a large segment in search of trainers. Since there is a fixed number of trainers and wild mon are inefficient, levels are more normalized and gyms can be set a certain amount over the expected player level.

>make everything even more linear, streamlined and boring

>>25712307
And also, if you're going to have long dungeons, don't include so many healing NPCs. That's what bothered me in Gen 6. There's absolutely no sense of accomplishment or urgency to get through a dungeon.

>>25712315
All I can remember now about this problem is that the moment you choose a zone some of the other choices got blocked to not break the game and set those zones with a fixed new minor level for later, so trainers and their movesets were interchangeable per zones to alleviate the huge effort of having to make like +7 movesets per trainer.
So you have quite a freedom to move in the map but your options are limited and the more you choose the more you should choose to unlock one of the previous zones and "go back to X city through an alternative route".
Basically trying to make exploration a bigger part of the main game, and not just to get extra items.

Sorry if I'm not explaining myself very well, I only remember the ideas themselves, but the specific talk of that conversation is all foggy.

>>25712374
>Gen 6
>not the doctor/nurse trainers in 5

>>25712362
>more linear
In what way? Current design is just going straight to the next gym and all, trainers are just there waiting for you to pass by.

You make the space between towns much more open, and so you have to explore it all to find all the trainers, while encountering Pokemon that wont over level you.

>>25712315
I almost forgot by the way, our second main issue was how the game would calculate if you are really overleveled according to how many pokemon you have.
I mean, it's not the same to have 6 pokemon each one 20 levels above normal, than 3 pokemon 20 too above normal. So using just middle values is a bit complicated here.
Also, if the game uses averages you have to considerate that it could be gamebreaking if you have 5 pokemon around the level 50 but one is like level 5.

>>25712494
Yeah that could complicate things.

Make TMs one time only until you beat the game (some refill mechanic or w/e).

Allow AI to use TMs & HMs.

Pull a Lance's Dragonite for some trainers.

Allow heavy dependence on money and Items. If you don't spend money on items like ethers/elixers/potions/full heals you'll certainly never make it past a segment (brings back the rpg element).


The last suggestion would single handily make the game more fun and strategic. Managing your money and buying the right items in order to survive a route.

>>25712829

It also makes each route or segment into a real challenge which would overall make the game/route/segment feel much longer.

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>>25712256
>>You have to train him up to use Low Kick for him to be worth anything
You'd have to train anything to be worth something, you have the whole Viridian forest to train Mankey. There's also Nidoran male that gets double kick.
>>Their stats aren't great and do need leveling up to beat Starmie
That's still a good example of what the first guy is talking about.
>>While true, a part of me doesn't want to count this because a stiff breeze could beat Falkner, let alone type advantage.
There's a guy in Violet city who's willing to trade you an Onix for a Bellsprout.

To add on:
>Ice Cave before Clair
>Zubat and Abra before Brawly
>Literally cross a water route before fighting Blaine
>person trades you Chatot for a Buizel right before fighting Gardenia

BW2's only issue was giving you a Riolu of all things, part because they couldn't stop shillling Lucario even in Gen 5, and also because Lucario can steamroll an entire game no problem, it doesn't help that evolving via friendhship means you have a super powerful Pokemon on your team by the time you hit the 3rd gym.

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>>25711053
Cheating

>>25711129
>Make it be like gen 1 where you had to catch X number of Pokemon in order to receive items.

Nah, fuck this
The whole pokedex bullshit is gay anyway
We shouldnt be forced to catch anything more than the mon we like

>>25712387

I loved that shit. They only heal you if you beat them. They're not the best trainers but that is a pretty ace mechanic to put in your RPG.

>>25711457
I was recently playing a rom hack that had a quest system
You could help several NPCs in many different way (help a dude to find his pokemon, catch a specific pokemon for a kiddo, beat several of a specific wild pokemon to help someone that had trouble with an agressive swarm...etc)

It was pretty neat (and optional anyway, so people who dont like can just skip)

1) Trainers, especially gym leaders, use real strategies and not just randomly selected moves.
2) Legitimate puzzles in gyms and dungeons.
3) Plot choices.

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>>25713033
Looks like we have ourselves someone who doesn't want to catch 'em all

>>25711582

Nigga that was the first gym. It was literally babby's first "type matchups matter" tutorial.

>>25711683
>Machop and Gastly before Whitney?

Are you unironically considering that Violet City tower = "right before Whitney"?

>>25711053
Gyms based on themes other than types. There's no reason other than tradition to have the gyms be based on type still.

Pokecenters and any healing NPC charge money and are rather expensive.
You lose half your money when you black out.
Limit the number of copies of an item that you can carry (i. e. no more than 20 potions, 10 super, 5 hyper maybe?). Picking up more sends them to the PC.
Items are more expensive maybe?
Your pokemon heal slightly after winning wild battles and they can drop items.
The game saves automatically if you lose and takes half your money if you reset without saving.
Pokecenters let you heal less than your full team if you don't have enough money. If you don't have any money you can heal one pokemon for free.
Gym leaders have 6 pokemon and all important battles are triple or rotation.
You can rematch trainers to make money but weaker trainers will pay very little (i. e. if your team is about 20 levels above theirs, you make nothing).
Champion has level 90~ pokemon, the rest of the game is leveled accordingly.

Would this make for a fun survival game?

>>25711173
I figured it'd be Steelix with a boner. This is much worse.

>>25711053
just up the levels of trainer pokemon by 5, and maybe raise the average number of mons to 4 instead of like 2
gym leaders should be tougher and should have full teams, always
I personally wish areas like forests and caves were bigger and more confusing
I think making everything cost a lot more would help, but if you fucked up, the only recourse would be to grind, so maybe not
regular trainers should use potions and status-removes sometimes
uhhhhh, throw in difficult random battles (like, maybe 5% are much higher level than normal)
make pokecenters only exist in towns, and have no random healing spots (like hot springs, or helpful people's beds)
if they could give better AI, that'd be cool, but its probably too much work; using the right move types and switching out when you have a type advantage (like players do) would be cool (or just have it be set)
you had to do rematches with the various gym leaders and challenge the elite 4 twice in order to build up enough to face red (who had pokes up to lvl 88); it'd be cool if other games had ceilings that high

>>25711546
this
I didnt even think about rivals; blue was for sure the best


>>25712231
this too
I feel like STAB has made the game too easy, and nowdays pokemon learn tons of different moves

>>25711053
Add more modes.
>Ace Trainer mode
AI is generally smarter all around, important trainers get a very smart AI, full teams for E4, Champion, and later gym leaders, important trainers get coverage TMs
>Champion mode
Every trainer has a strong but fair team, good AI, gym leaders and above get EV training and at least three perfect IVs, everyone has coverage for days
>Dark Souls mode
The AI blatantly cheats and checks your move before making its own, you crit half the time while the AI crits twice that much, the first trainer has a full team and is at least your expected level, all your Pokemon are limited to half the max values for EVs and IVs, all store prices are doubled, the game may or may not actually sculpt the teams of team leaders and Champion to actively counter your team, etc, etc...BUT, if you can actually beat the game and catch every Pokemon available in the region, you get the Champion's Charm that makes any Egg bred from the holder have perfect IVs

>>25713399
Post pic. I want to see it.

How about for Gym Battles how ever many Pokemon that Gym has you have to use and they have to be pre-set before you battlehave to

>>25711546
>If you lose against say an Gym or E4 member when you fight them again they might have a slightly different team to adjust for your team's type set-up

This

>>25713693
A good buff to game difficulty would be forcing you to beat the gym in one shot. If you leave to go anywhere, the trainers/hazards will reset. It's really easy to just go back and forth from most gyms to a pokemon center while clearing one. Using the gym trainers to grind would also be prevented by making it so that trainers you have to rematch don't give you experience.

Monster Rancher combat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrK-YHcRnXA

Come on, they've already lifted content from Digimon.

>>25711124
I feel like this is a good idea but levels are kind of an iconic thing with pokemon with evolution being based in it. I think putting level caps would work similarly. Like how pokemon you got in a trade not obeying you before a certain level depending on your badge. Make it where no pokemon can level up past that and make the max level around two levels higher than the gym leader's pokemon levels. That way you have to have an actual team of pokemon. How the system work now, you have to focus on training one pokemon, maybe two but even then you have to grind some. I think a level cap will make us more like actual trainers who have well thought out teams instead of just one roided out started pokemon that's used against every other pokemon even if it's weak to the enemy attacks and it still just steam rolls any trainer.
>summary: level caps

>>25713900
Left out important detail. As you gain badges, your level cap goes up

Gyms based on stats/play styles instead of types. Instead of Ice, Fire, Water Gym, you have Attack Gym, Inverse Gym, Doubles Gym, Wonder Gym, Stall Gym, Setup Gym, etc.

>>25713917
Or just apply the already existing level cap to Pokemon obtained through trade to all Pokemon, get rid of the experience boost for traded Pokemon as it is redundant and instead of having the obedience cap increase through gym battles it is increased by beating the equivalent level in the battle tower with Pokemon that are actually that level or close to it as opposed to adjusting all levels to be equal. So for example you need a Pokemon able to handle level 70 Pokemon in order to beat the level 70 tier and have Pokemon beyond level 70 be obedient. It wouldn't be as brutal as the battle tower, like 10 matches or something, but it would be more challenging than it is now.

>>25711053
>gym leaders scale level and pokemon based on your strongest pokemon in the party, usually 5 above for the strongest mon.
>better AI that actually tries to make judgements
>make areas like nugget bridge that are sequential, but you have to clear them in one go without a blackout to pass
>endgame that actually requires a maxed out party just to compete
>actual complex puzzles for dungeons and non-linear maps

This is all I want. I want the game to have an edge going all out. I really like pokemon when I limit myself against the gym leaders. Especially early on.

>>25714086
Wouldn't it be better if gym battles and e4 were like battle facilities? To have set levels and pokemon restrictions.

>>25714086
>Tfw Pokemon will never apply HMs in the same way Golden Sun applies Psynergy

>>25714112
No, because then it's evenly matched and you might not be able to use your bro if you over leveled by accident. I want an actual disadvantage that can only be over come by strategy. Even levels ruins that. Battle facilities have a level of skill that requires normalization of levels just because of the periodic nature of the facility, not even the AI itself. Gym leaders wouldn't be too aggressive, but just wouldn't be fucking stupid in their AI.

>>25714116
How did it work in Golden Sun? I actually played that game a lot when I was younger, but I've forgotten about the mechanics.

>>25714189
Have you ever entered a battle facility?
If you are over the cap, your pokémon is temporarily set to the cap and that's it.

>>25711053
see: Colosseum & XD

forced double battles expanded the strategy palette of opponents

>>25713681
Just look the image up in the archive you god damn newfag. Go to the original thread. It wasn't even a month ago.

>>25714244
The Double Battles didn't really make it more challenging. It just created a bias towards attacks that only attack one Pokemon. Earthquake was still rape and all you had to do to negate the self mutilation was have the other Pokemon in your team be flying/ levitating.

>>25714116
Explain. I've never played it so I'd like to hear how it works. I'm currently trying to make the hms less annoying and singlular. Cut is gonna be high crit bug type and work on trees, flowers for herbs, and big fruiting trees for berries. Strength is fighting type and also does the job of both rock smash/climb as well. Surf does waterfall, maybe diving. Fly is as it was.

>>25714303
Just like, HMs but applied in unorthodox ways. Like the strength puzzle on Seafoam islands. So using strength as an example, strength can be used on more than just that one kind of rock and its primary function isn't just to get a rock out of the way. So HMs and functional TMs become more than just a means to get from one place to another. So instead of just pushing a rock out of the way you push a pillar down and the pillar creates a bridge over a gap but the bridge blocks the exit down below, but you can't push the pillar back because it is then fixed in place, so you rock smash it to get past. Think the sorcerer's ring from Tales of Symphonia/ Phantasia but instead of a thing that changes from dungeon to dungeon it just uses your move set.

>>25714348
Sounds like the direction I wanted to go, with there being hidden areas people don't immediately find because each hm can take on multiple tasks, like cut taking down vines.

>>25712302
In gen 6 this is already the case. I'm not 100% sure since I can't find another source to back it up, but in my experience switch training in gen 6 does not divide exp.

For instance, in gen 1-4 pokemon a and b would have to divide 300 exp and get 150 exp each, in gen 5 the lower level pokemon would get a larger amount (i.e. 200 to 100) but in gen 6 they both get 300. This is just my experience, so I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's how it works in gen 6.

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Over the course of the game, give trainers/leaders:

Actually good move pools for their pokemon, not just the last 4 that pokemon learns at that level.
EV trained pokemon.
Proper nature pokemon.
Actual cohesive team strategy.
Held items.
Pokemon that can't be obtained within the game until after defeating the Elite 4.
Fix the goddamn level scaling, make the Exp.All default off when you obtain it (and you get it later), re-add the original held item Exp.Share slightly earlier than Exp.All
Better AI for all trainers/leaders/elite 4/champ - switching out on bad type match-ups, using super effective moves (and NOT Gen 1 style "good ai", but actually using 2x damaging moves)

Leaders have 2-5 pokemon, depending on gym number (maybe 2/3/3/4/4/5/5/5).
Elite 4 and Champ all have 6 pokemon.
Leaders/Elite 4/Champ all get a relevant Mega.
Leaders/Elite 4/Champion get perfect IV pokemon.

>>25714261
Reverse searching crops doesn't work, I'd assume you'd know that calling someone a newfag.

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>>25715145 here
Forgot to add:
No more pussy shit friendly "rivals", and no groups of rivals either. Give me 1-2 actually antagonizing rivals and we're good.

Make every single HM move one (or more) of the following:
Actually good in battle
Replaced by a key item (surfboard for surf, large mallet for rock smash, etc)
Forgettable on the go
Not required for travel, only for exploration (a-la Gen 5)

>>25711546
Don't forget
>Battle Mode locked to Set

>>25715198
Well in my opinion they don't even have to be antagonizing, I'd already be content with rivals that have an actual goal.
Blue's goal was to be the champion and at the very least be better than you.
Barry and Cheren wanted to be the best + had decent (pretty good in Barry's case) teams.

In contrast:
May/Brendan were in it for the lulz and have awful teams.
Silver had no real goal and had a shit team even in the remakes.
Lucas/Dawn and Nate/Rosa never even show up as rivals. Hilbert/Hilda don't even show up in general.
Hugh only wanted that Purrloin back and I don't even know what the fuck Bianca was doing.
All of gen 6 rivals besides Calem/Serena didn't have a real goal and the only one that did had May/Brendan from RSE level teams.
Wally had a decent team and wanted to be the best except he only randomly shows up at the end.

Make the NPC trainers you meet along the way have much better teams as time goes on.

In the beginning it'd be pretty easy but after your first badge or so trainers would show more variety in both their pokemon and the move sets they have.

So you'd see more evolved pokemon early on and maybe them having moves they can't learn by level up but can learn via TM

Trainers in a gym should be notably tougher than others you find along the various routes but obviously not up to par of the leader.

I'm surprised we don't have more gym leader who use double battles like Tate and Liza.

>>25715198
>>25715198

>Make every single HM move one (or more) of the following:
>Actually good in battle
>Replaced by a key item (surfboard for surf, large mallet for rock smash, etc)

I like the idea of making them more useful in battle since it feels like the only ones worth using in that regard are Surf and Fly

One other idea I'd use is not having HMs or having them as a key item but making them just something you can do default with a pokemon but with some restriction going on.

If you have something like a Lapras you can surf around, Scyther you can cut bushes down, A pokemon that produces it's own light source or can already use flash can be used to navigate dark caves with

But the catch would be something small like a Squirtle, Pidgey, wouldn't be able to surf or fly you around until they were fully evolved.

>>25711106
Do you actually think your second idea is good. Be honest.

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Don't give the player a Pokemon that can steamroll the rest of the game the moment you get it, with the full moveset and leveling needed already done for you.

If the goal is to catch Pokemon, don't give us a fucking Lapras and Surf at the same time either.

>>25715488
To me, this is essential. In my project I changed Flash to be equivalent to Swift in damage, retain the accuracy damaging aspect, but the PP has been dropped to 15 from 20. Since you get it before the first badge (and it is required) to get through to the second badge), I didn't want to make it too powerful... but I'm not sure how much lasting usage it has.
But good god anon, limiting the HMs to only the Pokémon that would logically be capable of using them (Surf on a big water type, Fly on a big bird) is fucking genius. I'm gonna use that on my hack now, if you don't mind. You'll be credited as anon.

>>25716311

I don't mind at all but I am curious about this project.

And the idea would extend to the other HMs or even a few other field moves. Diglett would be able to use dig to exit a dungeon without needing the move as an immediate example. Any pokemon known for being really strong would also be able to push boulders around without issue.

In the single player mode HMs have always been my least favorite part of the journey. I always found it odd how originally you couldn't remove them even though they have infinite uses.

I'd say improve them and keep as attacks but otherwise they're just normal attacks that pokemon can learn.

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>>25716311
Im doing something similar, bring up the power of cut and making it bug so it's appropriately SE against grass. There's only 4 hms total and I want them to have lots of uses, pic related. Some things people won't notice at first, and there will be secret areas that have good items and such as prizes for finding them.

Pokemmo did it alright, adapted things to make exp values slightly different, trainers have much more competent AI even with their mediocre teams.

I'd agree with most of the thread though. Challenge mode post content or better teams for trainers instead of 2 of the same mon and a random route mon.

>>25716629
It's a rudimentary hack called Kanto Roads. I've released a proof of concept demo, but recent research has led me to believe I need to go back to the drawing board; the demo was made over the course of two months as I started to grasp the basics of scripting and mapping and formulated the overall plot and lore of my redesigned vision; however, I'm starting to think I will need some ASM and other things before I can move forward. Starting to think I should restart now that my vision has been solidified and mapping skills are better. I've got some grand ideas that I don't have the skill level to implement yet-I've been trying to figure out how to make a trainer disappear after battle for several weeks with no real progress. And that's just one conundrum.

Not have the AI roll 4 for every move and actually pick a move based on what they're against

>>25711053
If you die in the game, you die in real life!

>>25716819

That sounds difficult so good luck with it.

Am I the only person that thinks GF doesnt understand that kids still want a challenge these days? That's the only reason I can think of for having fucking 4 man teams past the 4th or 5th gym leader.

Do what I'm doing; Explore all of the overworld but avoid battles with wild Pokemon if at all possible. It's the most fun with Pokemon I've had in years.

>>25713061
I still felt it made things too easy. They're easy to spot, and once you get one there's nothing stopping you from reusing them all the time. Saves a lot of time when grinding though.

>>25711053
local co-op multiplayer story play so that an opposing pokemon cartridge player can BE the gym leader im battling and select custom moves and stats in order to make pokemon competitive as it should be

>>25713900
Agreed, just set level caps before each gym and make it easier to train pokemon. Also make TMs reusable. This way players will have to find the right combinations of pokemon and moves to win instead of grinding.

>>25711053
I personally gave each gym leader the strongest mons with the best sets of their respective types in my difficulty hack

>>25711128
>braindead idiots
The A.I of beginner trainers take advantage of how dumb kids usually are as they forget they can switch hence the A.I will spam the shit out of Tail Whip or Leer then take out their mon in one hit thats not stupid thats actually strategy. If you actually want to see the strategy of the A.I I would suggest playing a game without ever using supereffective moves. I can recall an A.I in Castelia that abuses a cheap sleep tactic then heal spam.

>>25711053
Limit the amount of pokemon you can use to challenge a gym leader.

More and longer and optional dungeons.

>>25717580
I think it would be better to limit the number of pokemon you can have on you at a time by gym badges.
3 pokemon 0 - 3 badges
4 pokemon 4 -5 badges
5 pokemon 6-7 badges
6 pokemon 8 badges

Leveling in Pokemon is broken. Why bother building a team when you can just use one Pokemon and win more easily? So, change the EXP formula. BW tried to do something similar but it didn't go all the way. Basically, the lower level you are compared to your opponent, the more experience you gain. Once you're overleveled by a few levels, experience drops off sharply. This makes it easy to build a team without grinding, and much harder to power through with a single Pokemon. It will also keep the player from becoming too underleveled or overleveled.

We've all seen this: a shitty trainer or even Gym Leader with 4 or fewer Pokemon that are all just free experience. It makes sense for the enemies to be weak in a game made for children primarily, but in your game you can make them much stronger. Give enemies big teams of strong Pokemon with good movesets, abilities, stats, and so on. Make the AI smart enough to switch when it's beneficial.

Money in Pokemon is broken. They give you way too much, but if you run out, you're fucked. So, allow wild Pokemon to drop money, and maybe items if you want to be nice. Decrease the amount that trainers give, so the player doesn't become a millionaire.
I'd decrease the level gap between wild Pokemon and trainer Pokemon for a similar reason: if you mess up leveling your Pokemon you end up completely fucked. The worst example of this is in Johto, where Red's Pokemon are 30 levels above any other in the game. Yes, it's hard, but for all the wrong reasons.

You can travel through any area with strong wild Pokemon simply by using a Smoke Ball or a Pokemon with the ability Run Away. If you intend on having tough wild battles, you'll need to do something about this.
You can also hoard healing items, so you may want to introduce a limit to the amount the player can carry(for example, items stack only to 9).

I don't know how much of this is possible in a hack, but in Essentials it's easy as pie.

>>25713144
I was actually thinking of B2W2, not the first games.

>>25711053
Any TM or HM available to you is used by other trainers. Victory road would be full of teams with perfect coverage and support moves. Elite four would all have held items.

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>>25711053
make every cave dark cave. remove flash completly. insert traps that teleport you to enterance. make scaled enemies- the levels of the pokemons you are up against in trainers and in the wild will match the levels of your own party.
Here. try to say that won't work.

Better Moveset
Higher level to balance the EXP Share
Better Trainer AI
>>25711124
>This

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>>25711124
>>25711176
>>25720286
>eliminate levels
>in Pokemon, the game series entirely based around levels and exp, and has been that way for the past 20 years

>>25720301
Yea I really don't want to eliminate levels, that would make the game really tough in terms of figuring out how to evolve Pokemon. I like the ideas of Pokemon obeying to a certain level per badge. Any ideas on puzzles in the game, beyond the old strength rock puzzles?

I don't see why the games should be made harder. Isn't this an rpg designed for kids? If you want challenge, then do pvp.

>>25718417
You guys are horrible, all you are doing is suggesting on how to make the games more unbearable and annoying not really more difficult.
>>25718948
>Make every cave dark
You really want kids to break their 3DS dont you?

Anyway to make the games harder just make the A.I smarter and switch.

>>25721173
The strength rock moving puzzles, especially in Gen 1 Seafoam and Gen 3 Team Hideouts were neat, and so were the sliding ice puzzles from Gen 2 and the ice cracking puzzle from Gen 3 Gym 8.

>>25721916
>You really want kids to break their 3DS dont you?
OP asked to make pokemon games chalanging. it's not my fault kids of today never known nintendo hard.

>>25711053
ai is the main thing

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Took a lot of ideas here and got some great new material to work with. I've totally reworked my initial idea for HMs, making them really connect the player with the world. At first, I was just going to combine HMs: Strength does rocksmash/climb, surf does waterfall too. Instead, they will include that and many hidden features, really illustrating the "hidden" of hidden moves. Commonly overlooked tiles can be interacted with. You can use fly on bell towers and birdhouses to get EV wings. Cut can slice a wall of vines to reveal a hidden path. Surf can be used to split small waterfalls to reveal a cave hidden behind it. The challenge comes from less $$ and upfront items, plus a level cap and harder enemies. Players can discover these hidden portions and various puzzles to overcome these tougher battles.

>>25711053
Not possible unless you majorly change the games base mechanics. Every challenge romhack is just 90% grinding.

>>25722117
Pokémon games will NEVER have decent ai.

>>25715495
you mean the level cap? i wouldn't like it in the games unless it's an optional mode, otherwise i think going back to the gen 5 exp system would be better

>>25722827
would it really be that hard to make battles scaled to fit the levels of your party?

GET RID OF FUCKING ITEMS IN BATTLES

WHAT IS THE POINT OF POKEMON FAINTING IF I CAN JUST REVIVE THEM AND FULL RESTORE THEM

WHERE THE FUCK IS THE CHALLENGE

>>25722905
I agree with this, you should only be able to use items out of battle.

>>25718251
That would make sense and encourage kids to use more than 1 mon, so GF will never do it.