/utg/ - Undertale general

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>>176118762
Why do you always have to show up when I have a good OP idea, anon?!
Pic unrelated.

Hitting your fave when they don't get good enough grades at school!
Hitting your fave for making people wonder if your fave is being hit by you!

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Two posts again

>Asgore
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Jbaz8UMAE8X32.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_MxMvaUQAAt2iV.jpg:orig
>Toriel
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_KEUJwV0AAKtJH.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JlR1oUIAAfLgz.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JhefPUIAA_BBl.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JhFyWV0AMdnPR.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JkcG1U0AQBFq3.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_OITgeVwAIfMTt.jpg:orig
>Asriel
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_OSSEzU0AARdUd.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JLygfUQAEdLhl.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_NYMTnUIAAs-cZ.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_KMjf9VoAAa9cP.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_KFWoMVoAAbVW1.png:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_J34U2UQAAQVqU.jpg:orig
>Flowey
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_NMZQqUMAAccH0.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Js76dUIAE-vpk.jpg:orig
>Chara
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JgackUQAAVJWk.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JMsG2UMAADjY7.jpg:orig
>Frisk
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_CeGo4VoAEF6EX.jpg:orig
>Sans
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_AzCw4VwAEmUDt.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_M78zIU0AEM3Tf.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Jh0fgU0AAzxKH.jpg:orig
>Papyrus
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_OL6BUU0AAubOp.jpg:orig
>Gaster
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_NFNvOUwAAffw5.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JA0dfVoAA2cuY.jpg:orig
>Undyne
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JNhVHUQAAkCJt.png:orig
>Alphys
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_OBu9CUQAAVodM.jpg:orig
>Grillby
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Njn3IUIAAol3O.jpg:orig
>Aaron
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_NWSSRVYAA9o0u.jpg:orig
>froggit
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Jg2VhUAAI0uaB.jpg:orig
>Shyren
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JhZXdVoAEGLUw.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Jg2-lVYAEmpof.png:orig
>Muffet
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_IU-__VYAApFMn.jpg:orig
>Nicecream bunny
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_OGuIVU0AAgN4z.jpg:orig
>>176118930
sorry

>>176118937
>Hitting your fave for making people wonder if your fave is being hit by you!
Thanks for having my back.

>>176118965
>Burgerpants
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8880r1UMAEs0c_.png:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C888yFmV0AAibbj.png:orig
>Fishlizard
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_IyVYLUQAAK2cG.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_MKIeEVYAEjM0Y.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_HNQtpUIAAkUI7.jpg:orig
>Kingdings
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JTB4sVYAM50U1.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JfMazVoAIqJDZ.jpg:orig
>Soriel
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JjbAUVwAEaP8G.jpg:orig
>Nicepants
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JAnUKUQAAnqYg.jpg:orig
>Skeletons
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_MM5MjVYAA1dkj.png:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JpwROVwAA8VpM.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Jih-oUQAA-MZb.jpg:orig
>Papyrus + Flowey
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8Jlp0aUQAIVhVs.jpg:orig
>Chara + Gaster
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_GxfQiUIAAUrQv.jpg:orig
>Chara + Frisk
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_JirUKUMAMbHUe.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_OH9zvVoAACRMn.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_OH-TgVoAAHsRX.jpg:orig
>MTT crashing peoples dates LIKE A DICK
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_J0WFKVwAE0GOE.jpg:orig
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_NXXprVYAA3tTm.jpg:orig
>MTT + FLowey + Undyne
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Ji1DgVoAA8TT2.jpg:orig
>Goat Family
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Ivtv5UMAAI4v-.jpg:orig
>Goatdad + fish daughter
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Ije6XUMAAx2Vv.jpg:orig
>Group
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Jo14oUIAIER38.jpg:orig

Oh thank goodness we can leave that rotting corpse of a thread behind us.

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FRICK HOURS WHO THE FUCK UP

>>176119207
>edgefrick
now I really want his twinky tall ass

>>176118965
you say that but I don't think you ever mean it

The sight of a fresh thread with no shitposting fills you with "Ball Game".

>>176119367
If I had actually known that you were planning a thread i'd have not made this one. In the future i'll wait until 750+ before I do so

>>176119379
Who got pissed off this time, that this is suddenly the new meme?

>>176119416
not the same guy, just messing with you because I think I see you say that often

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>>176119379
I don't get the meme, so I also don't get why it annoys people.
Is it another one of those things where the way it's annoying to people is the joke?

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I have chocolate cookies. And coffee to go with them and it's lovely.
Everything's okay now.

>>176119590
This Chara looks like they just got pulled into the game from Code Lyoko

>>176119664
I tried to rewatch Code Lyoko once but I couldn't get over they're pointy, pentagonal faces.

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>>176119443
>>176119590
There was an argument over what trait the red soul has, even though it is clearly determination.

>>176119590
Each of the six human souls has its own trait, like patience, bravery, etcetera. People often claim the red soul's trait is "determination", but that doesn't really work out because determination is yellow everywhere it has a color in the first place and all humans have lots of determination.
The Snowdin ball game gives you a differently colored flag depending on how you beat it, and if you do it perfectly you get a red flag with some flavor text listing each of the soul properties in text written in their respective colors. It doesn't say anything about determination, but it does say "ball game," in red text, so it seems that the red soul's trait is "ball game."
Or it could be "being yourself", because the ball game does say something about that, but don't tell anyone

>>176120394
>It doesn't say anything about determination, but it does say "ball game," in red text, so it seems that the red soul's trait is "ball game."

I think this is one of those cases where taking every word deadly seriously doesn't exactly work out in practice. "Being yourself" sounds alright.

>>176121261
I think this is one of those cases where taking every word deadly serious lets you make a joke that's not very good but can be stretched out over hundreds of posts

>>176120394
Can "being yourself" even be considered a trait?

>>176122143
if you really get down to it, Justice isn't a trait either, it's just a concept

>>176122251
I guess.
I don't like it though.

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>tfw dadfag
>tfw starting to appreciate edge Asriel from a lewd pov

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FINISH HIM

AU where everyone is that one monster with the cap in the MTT restaurant who's really enthusiastic about puzzles

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>>176122791
"Everytime someone calls final-boss Asriel hot an
angel gets its wings.
An angel of death."

>>176122251
Definitions for trait are along the lines of "a quality that makes a person unique."
"My defining trait is being myself" sounds dumb to me.
It's sort of like avoiding the question all together.
"Myself" is composed of traits, a person does not have one defining trait.
If that's what Toby was going for than I wish he put it in a way that's less Care Bears.
Honestly I think Toby didn't give red a trait for the sole purpose of limiting Frisk's personality and making them a better self insert.
Traits such as "Kindness" or "Bravery" might not apply to every player while "Determination" is something everyone playing has on some scale because it's a parallel to the player's willingness to keep going.
I'm going to think of the being yourself line as a "fill in your own trait here" rather it being what defines Frisk.

>>176122251
What is self-righteousness?

>>176123801
There's a clear difference between a desire for justice and self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is pretending to seek justice to inflate one's own ego. Everyone can be self-righteous. Not everyone can have a desire for justice.

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>>176123964
They're two sides of the same coin, you can even interpret it to mean "justification in ones actions". Hell, the yellow flag result is "Your sure-fire accuracy has put an end to the mayhem of 'ball'".

The yellow soul kid was implied to have killed some monsters (dangerous feeling hat, gun may not have always been empty), his trait implies it may not have been of malicious intent.

>>176123745
Determination is a direct metaphor for the player's desire to keep playing the game and continue through the Underground.

Your actions define you, not arbitrary traits. That's why you're determined as long as you keep playing the game, because it's a true and universal constant regardless of HOW you choose to play the game.

>>176124727
Correct, that is what I meant.

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I want to be tiny and have Toriel dote on me.

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Good morning utg! Have a good Sunday!

>>176118965
Thank you Twitter anon! Thats alot of art! Was there something special about today?

>>176125476
the 60 min was really active and I liked a lot of the art they made. Plus sundays always have a ton of stuff but as far as I know there wasn't anything special

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>>176018059
>>176104567
Just dropping by somewhere between the Azzy hours to tell you that I'm liking what you're making.

Bring back Storyshift!

>>176018059
>Asriel in captain's seat
You probably missed it when I said I wanted this a long time ago but I'm happy that it now exists.

>>176126674
Do I have to?

>>176126674
keep it dead

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Reminder that the goat is dead.

>>176126674
I feel like writer should take a break, and eventually start the story over from scratch.

>>176126603
what is nextale

>>176127158
Yes!

>>176127174
Storyshift is loved by many people unlike you! You should stay dead!

>>176127497
Perhaps a rest is well deserved. But I don't understand why a reboot is necessary.

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Partnership is the best kind of ship.

>>176126674
Only if it has a better Waterfall and Hotland

>>176127880
>You should stay dead!
way ahead of you

>>176127497
I feel bad for the writer.
According to what I heard on here they have openly admitted to hating what it had become and then they were bashed by their own fan base because they didn't like what they liked.

>>176127880
>But I don't understand why a reboot is necessary.
Then you're an idiot. Even the creator admitted the story has railroaded into something bad, it's not hard to see all the different points where it failed.

>>176127961
>According to what I heard on here they have openly admitted to hating what it had become and then they were bashed by their own fan base because they didn't like what they liked.
More or less. They expressed doubts about certain story decisions and where they're going with it (up to and including the much-maligned Chara data), but the subreddit didn't care, everything was perfect to them. Content creators are very often insecure about their work, that's completely true, but when you know something is wrong and yet it gets praised anyway, I do believe that kind of feels like a slap in the face as well.

>>176127998
helpless little frisk always for daddy sans's charms
no exceptions, they can't resist him

>>176127928
Don't reply to me anymore!

>>176127961
Of course, /utg/ is the end-all be-all of sources.

>>176128082
>this is shit but I won't say why
Very convincing!

>>176126791
I was the requester of it, and I really liked it

I like the quote too, because (1) Picard is not shy of great quotes, and (2) It fits for Asriel since it could be a reflection of the personal identity issues his predicament can't help but bring up

Was the location of each of the fallen humans weapons indicative of their strength? If Catty and Bratty scavenged the pistol from Waterfall does that mean Kindness was the furthest progressed?

>>176128818
Why do people ask about the humans as if we know literally anything about them? Who knows if that's your headcanon go for it because no one can prove you right or wrong

>>176128878
Because some people have an open mind and are willing to change their headcanon with thought-provoking discussion?

>>176128878
Discussing headcanon is fun. Like that theory that Flowey is not so much unable to feel positive emotion but the way monsters feel emotion is so alien to his current form he can't conceive of how to do it. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's interesting.

>>176128818
If that were the case, the story breaks apart, as the first fallen after Chara left their stuff in the Ruins, but couldn't have died there.

>>176129051
>>176129098
But why are you asking as if we know one way or the other? Just say hey I think *headcanon* is cool, what do you guys think about it?

>>176128818
Patience probably had already lost their items when they got killed. I don't think Asgore would enter the ruins.

>>176127857
Sci-fi AU.

http://nextale.tumblr.com/

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>>176128818
Maybe. That's what I always thought.
>If Catty and Bratty scavenged the pistol from Waterfall does that mean Kindness was the furthest progressed?
Didn't think about that.

>>176128878
I like stuff about the humans, despite there being just about nothing about them in anything.

>>176128602
>Very convincing!
Chara overtook the story far beyond the character should have. Toriel's motivation made no sense, because she immediately dropped her concern after Frisk left, which doesn't gel with her insistence of keeping them safe. Asriel is completely generic in this incarnation and after the retcon, Blooky-Flowey is exactly the same as well. Undyne and Asgore's relationship could have been very interesting, but boiled down to "Undyne attempts something, Asgore stops her" like I was watching a fucking looney tunes cartoon. Asgore wants to commit suicide even though the problems he had in UT are not present here, and he has a wife and two children still alive and well. Sans references hunters who are out to take Frisk's soul, but none of these have been so much as mentioned throughout the story.

Is that enough?

>>176129152
I kind of hate the theory that they just ditched their items. They were important enough to them that their items were invested in their soul segments so why would they just ditch them?
>>176129234
I'm not a big fan because its just pure headcanon where anything you want to can be true. Plus people take it too seriously and act as if their headcanons for what went down is different then you're an asshole or wrong and get pissed if you point out that they're stuff is BS

>>176129204
>>176127857
Just wait for the Underfell game, Nextale is featured there

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>>176125190

>>176129352
I don't think all of them ditched their items, some of them just wound up in places for one reason or another.

Like say, Patience could have dropped their items to lure Toriel away from the Ruins door, and then just bolt the fuck off. It ain't ironclad, but it's an idea.

>>176129352
>>176129352
>Plus people take it too seriously and act as if their headcanons for what went down is different then you're an asshole or wrong and get pissed if you point out that they're stuff is BS
Really? I didn't think anything more than maybe 5% of people cared about them.

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>>176129556

>>176129606
That's the thing though is that its just a random guess. I don't know i'm not a fan of just wildly guessing and coming up with BS that I know isn't true but its fine of you are
>>176129641
I've gotten hate for it before

>>176129730
Yeah, I get where you're coming from, it's just an open question and people always want to fill those out. Since canon information about them is nearly non-existent, there's really nothing else people can go by, save for some really obscure and minor clues.

>>176129641
Most people who do care just care a little bit too much.

>>176128818
They could just as easily mean the dumpster outside the hotel rather than waterfall.

>>176129098
Frisk cannot drop their weapons, only replace them. Assuming the other kids played by the same rules, they couldn't either.

>>176129152
Maybe Patience died before Toriel went into self-imposed exile?

>>176130119
Doesn't make sense because if Toriel had access to a soul she could have just taken it and solved it using her so peaceful plan.

>>176130119
>>176130185
by it I mean the plot of the game

>>176130119
Nah, she probably left right after Asgore made his declaration of war, tensions were very high almost immediately after Chara and Asriel's death, I don't think more than a few days passed before she just took Chara's body and left.

>>176130185
not to mention Toriel and Asgore probably would have gotten into a fight if it happened while both was present, it's more likely she left before any of the six fell.

>>176130185
Do people really not realize her "plan" was just her pointing out how Asgore plan to sit on his ass and do nothing only managed to draw out everyone's suffering with the same genocidal result

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>>176129453
>tfw the good underfell game fucking imploded

>>176129351
>Chara overtook the story far beyond the character should have.
Just like sans did in canon?
>Toriel's motivation made no sense, because she immediately dropped her concern after Frisk left, which doesn't gel with her insistence of keeping them safe.
She reconciled with her children and if they have faith in shifty, she does too. You could make the same argument for canon toriel
>Asriel is completely generic in this incarnation and after the retcon, Blooky-Flowey is exactly the same as well.
Are you saying their canon counterparts had more depth in this regard? This is an entirely subjective critique.
>Undyne and Asgore's relationship could have been very interesting, but boiled down to "Undyne attempts something, Asgore stops her" like I was watching a fucking looney tunes cartoon.
I see you missed the screen where Undyne left a note saying "Thanks for being the dad I never knew could be real." Undyne's motivation in this case trying to stop the human so Asgore will stay alive is a more personally sympathetic cause than her canon motivation of freedom for monsterkind.
>Asgore wants to commit suicide even though the problems he had in UT are not present here, and he has a wife and two children still alive and well.
And while he has his family, a number of monsters don't because of him. And even then, his son distrusts him, his wife left him, and the only human they're on good terms with would never accept his sacrifice.
>Sans references hunters who are out to take Frisk's soul, but none of these have been so much as mentioned throughout the story.
I interpreted this as every hostile encounter so far were the "hunters"

Speaking of, where did Petra go

I hope the subhuman didn't drive him out

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>>176128602
>Of course, /utg/ is the end-all be-all of sources.

gotcha covered, boss

>>176130895
Nobody points out that Asriel had a hybrid soul and yet he was still killed by the humans.

>>176131612
Easy to get killed when you refuse to fight

And only Asriel knew about Chara assuming direct control, so that aspect wouldn't come up

>>176131612
Not much of a problem there. He had the power to stop them and/or kill them, but failing to do either he wasn't actually immortal against their violence.

>>176130895
If she actually thought that plan was possible she should have done it. I have almost no respect for Toriel desu because time and time again she chose herself and her own emotions and self righteousness over the lives of her people, the human race and the fallen humans. She had so many outs and options that she could have solved the issue with but took none of them because she might have had to do something morally that she didn't want to do. If she hadn't left and stuck around to try and gather support to oppose Asgore's plan she could have turned the opinions of the rest of the monsters, if she been willing to trap the human in the ruins so they couldn't get killed she could have done the Chara plan again and taken their soul peacefully and gotten the rest form doners on the surface, She could have gone with the humans to face Asgore directly even though it would be awkward to face her ex and protect them or even kill a human so that she can take their soul if they can't be reasoned with and absorb it so that she can go to the surface and force peace between monsters.

So yeah I know what she meant by that but the whole thing rings really false and hypocritical when she could have done shit herself to end it whenever she wanted but didn't because she personally would feel bad. Like at least Asgore had the weight of his entire race's survival on his shoulders, most likely didn't truly believe that humans and monsters could ever live in peace and had to face committing genocide because of that belief.

sorry about the rant but I read some stuff that was bothering me the other day and I wanted to get this off my chest. Toriel's a good character but man I personally don't like her.

>>176131802
>>176131881
Nobody knew what happened besides Asriel. They painted what happened in the best possible light because otherwise their only hope would be crushed. For all they know, Asriel could've been killed by a magician.

>>176131926
Recognizing the lesser of two evils without being willing to do it yourself wouldn't make you a hypocrite. You disapprove of both bad things, but when the worse of the two starts to happen you wouldn't be out of line to point out that the other option would still be preferable just because you don't want it to happen either.

>>176131926
I do like her, though I agree that her reactions and motivations surrounding the war are not really explored and that's a fault in the writing.

>>176127880
>Storyshift is loved by many people unlike you! You should stay dead!

Storyshift isn't coming back. Now that Voltra finally got a reason to quit the thing she's going to let it rot and wait for everyone to forget it.

She's spent over a year rewriting the same story over and over again without ever getting it right. Quality notwithstanding, anyone would get sick of that.

>>176131129
>Just like sans did in canon?
That's bullshit and you know it. Sans wasn't linked to the king, he didn't personally edit the lore to fit his own suffering in. Don't confuse what people assume of Sans with what actually happens in the game.

>Are you saying their canon counterparts had more depth in this regard? This is an entirely subjective critique.
I really don't think it's subjective to say that Asriel has more character if you include Flowey, and that Blooky acting exactly like Blooky is somehow more character than giving him a psychosis like Flowey's.

>I see you missed the screen where Undyne left a note saying "Thanks for being the dad I never knew could be real."
No, I did not, but their interactions by and large were about what I said. Undyne appears, menaces Frisk (and even then she really doesn't, because everyone starts rooting for Frisk by the end), Asgore disables the problem. He has all of Alphys' positive things and none of the bad. I was waiting for Hotland so much, because the connection between Undyne and Asgore is much stronger than Alphys and Metta, but it was just a rushed nothing.

>And while he has his family, a number of monsters don't because of him. And even then, his son distrusts him, his wife left him, and the only human they're on good terms with would never accept his sacrifice.
Chara has nothing against him, Toriel is mad for reasons unknown and what are you talking about? Asriel specifically talks with Toriel in Waterfall about wanting to see the family back together again. The Amalgamates are already free and are doing fine, Reaper Bird is much more coherent for instance. The True Lab probably would have elaborated upon that, but on Neutral, he's just ready to die for the first human rando.

>I interpreted this as every hostile encounter so far were the "hunters"
That would assume everyone at all times is out to murder Frisk by default, even in Snowdin and Waterfall, which considering Toriel's presence, is bullshit.

>>176132186
What difference does it make how they got killed? We're not assuming that he got overpowered because of just what he told, but because of how the ancient texts in the waterfall tell us about how strong human-monster souls are together. There's no question that he was more powerful than any of the humans, but died in their hands anyways, making it clear that something went wrong. Why would he want to lie about that or even portray it in less-than-truthful way?

>>176132198
>the worst of the two
The worst would have been him trying to commit genocide. He didn't choose the best option and he's still a murderer that did wrong, i'm not denying that or trying to say that he was justified but his choices at least make complete sense and I can sympathize with him unlike Toriel who had both the means and the motivation to end the entire conflict whenever she wanted but never did because she might have had to do something she didn't want to do. Like fuck i'm suppose to like this character and think shes a good mom because she let six kids die literally only because she didn't want to have to talk to her ex? What the fuck Toby.

It really doesn't help that we personally know that her plan wouldn't have worked and most likely would have just gotten Asgore killed which would have made things even worse because now the monsters king have been murdered by the humans not long after Asriel.

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>>176132849
>>176132198
Also i'm really sorry because i'm going really off topic now and this has nothing to do with you or this conversation and i'm just venting because i'm frustrated. I'm going to shut up now and just post cute goats

Would you still love your fave if they were 8 and they wrote bad fan fiction based on things they liked and made your read it

>>176133048
Yes

>>176133048
>bad fan fiction
tautology much

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>>176133024
Not off topic to discuss Undertales of any sort friend. It's all good.

Cute goats are fine too.

>>176132849
Anon, I can say that shooting someone is a better option that stabbing them, and I might end up being technically correct and have a gun and a knife, but that doesn't mean I have any inclination of doing either of them.

And that's not defending Toriel, because I think the end of the game should have had at least someone make a remark about her abandoning the throne, but merely bringing up an alternative doesn't make anyone immediately dead-set on following up on it.

Whatever you read really upset you though, maybe it's best if you take a deep breath and have some chocolate or something.

>>176132849
>who had both the means and the motivation to end the entire conflict
So did Asgore though. He lacked the same will for that as Toriel did. It doesn't matter how many excuses you make for him he just didn't want to deal with the difficulty of it.
>i'm suppose to like this character and think shes a good mom
Not really the same question as being a good leader, but whatever.
>only because she didn't want to have to talk to her ex?
Isn't it pretty obvious that Asgore is beyond all talking by the time he has decided that all humans who end up in the underground must be killed? It was after that decision she left him.
Neglect is another thing, but blaming her for failing to talk him out of murder is just plain barking up the wrong tree.

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>>176133150
Did someone say chocolate? I could remove a person's spleen for a bar of chocolate.

>>176132676
When forced to decide between the accuracy of ancient stone texts or the reality of what happened to the only known example of a monster-human fusion, doubts are going to be raised.

In either case, crossing the barrier becomes a risky prospect. At best, Asgore could negotiate for the souls but Asriel's fate makes that seem impossible. He could get the souls and restart the war with humanity, in which case they're back at square one. At worst, Asgore would die and the underground would be back at square one. Playing the long game is the only way to avoid these outcomes.

>>176133350
Would you remove your own pancreas, in that "buy a comb for my bald girlfriend" sense?

>>176133495
Yeah, Asgore's actual approach to soul collection was probably the best path in terms of dealing with the surface once the barrier breaks.

However don't think he chose to do it that way out of a shrewd understanding or anything. He just didn't want to kill anyone and preferred to wait so he wouldn't have to until they turned up. He kinda lucked out on that front.

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>>176133150
Yeah I know. I get what you mean and I agree with you to a point. Like I said I was venting because of other shit and I need to stop because i'm going to start drama or make people feel shitty by shitting on a character and I really don't like it when people do that to the undertales I like so I shouldn't do the same thing just because it might make me feel a bit better.

Also yeah shutting up now
>>176133140


>>176133334
fine last thing i'm going to say
>So did Asgore though. He lacked the same will for that as Toriel did
Yeah but his reasons make sense and are constant with his character. I can sympathize with him because why he didn't do it makes sense. He couldn't go back on his word because it would have destroyed the fragile hope that his people were using to live and he honestly didn't think it was possible for humans and monsters to live in peace but at the same time didn't want to wipe out billions of humans so he stalled and took the lesser of the two evils. He still killed the humans or at least ordered it but I can sympathize and understand his choices. That's why hes a good character and one that I like
Toriel at no point thought otherwise so she has no reason for doing nothing the entire time beyond her
>It was after that decision she left him. Neglect is another thing, but blaming her for failing to talk him out of murder is just plain barking up the wrong tree.
You misunderstand the point I was making. I have no issues that she left him and that was her right. I'm saying that shes shit because she ditched her entire race. She didn't want to put her foot down and stop the humans from leaving the ruins even though it was within her power and she didn't want to go with them and try to protect them. Unlike with Asgore's situation the only one at risk was herself.

>>176133150
I think Toriel's faults were pretty clearly presented right at the beginning and further shed light on in New Home, or wherever the details about her work as queen were brought up.

She's the one who brings up just one problem in Asgore's plan because as the ex-coleader of the kingdom she's in position to know about the issues and because the idea that he clearly had alternatives hasn't really been brought to the player's attention otherwise, at least not directly. She doesn't come there just to bully her ex but as a way of letting the player know about the disagreements they had in the past. You can't exactly drop information about the quarrel of the monarchs through their subjects and the stories they tell because they wouldn't know about that sort of thing.
It's awkward, but it makes sense for the presentation of the story and I haven't exactly seen people suggest better alternatives on how to shed light on the matter. It's not like she rants at or lectures him right there and then, just mentions it.

>>176133123
going through the writebin should be clue enough of that

at least some of the artists had been decent

>>176133753
The issue is that we know her plan wouldn't have worked. It really makes her look kind of dumb even though she has no way of knowing. Its poor writing on Tobys part and instead of busting out that shitty alt plan he should have come up with a different plan or anything else really

>>176133495
This argument relies on Asriel having some motivation to be untruthful about what happened up until the very end. Sure, he could have lied about it to his parents while he was dying, but if Toby wanted that to be a thing he would have had Asriel give it away and tell what really happened once you meet him in the end.
>Playing the long game is the only way to avoid these outcomes.
It's not, since it also had the risks Asgore himself tells about which he also mentions he actually hoped would happen.
He took the course he did not because it was oh so safe, but because it allowed the success of the plan to be up to something other than his own actions.

>>176133334
>Toriel at no point thought otherwise so she has no reason for doing nothing the entire time beyond her not wanting to do something that would make her feel bad.
Forgot to finish that thought

>>176133753
>It's awkward, but it makes sense for the presentation of the story and I haven't exactly seen people suggest better alternatives on how to shed light on the matter. It's not like she rants at or lectures him right there and then, just mentions it.
You're not necessarily wrong, but the game does give her somewhat of a holier-than-thou attitude regarding this, because people rightfully bring up the fact that if she's willing to criticize him like this, she probably should have had some self-reflection about letting the previous six go as well. She just goes completely unchallenged in all of this, while Asgore was left to suffer alone of the decision, that's kind of what ticks people off.

But to be fair, some of the neutral endings do throw her approach right back in her face, by deposing her. I still like her, I just feel like the ending was very slanted in her direction.

>>176133713
Wasn't his plan for dealing with the surface (which he had been hyping up to the point of personally indoctrinating Undyne into it) to just kill all the humans

>>176133739
>Yeah but his reasons make sense and are constant with his character.
Just like Toriel who clearly had different, more tight morals than her husband. Which are less tight than you're probably thinking because
>shes shit because she ditched her entire race
this was obviously her last ditch attempt at getting Asgore out of his plan. Can't question someone's integrity for actually holding up the threats they make.
>She didn't want to put her foot down and stop the humans from leaving the ruins even though it was within her power and she didn't want to go with them and try to protect them
I'm pretty sure this was all already covered within the ruins segment. Having weakness doesn't make character shit.

>>176134451
>which he had been hyping up to the point of personally indoctrinating Undyne into it
wew lad

If the humans could reset, why didn't they grind enough LOVE to get through the underground?

>>176134595
He trained Undyne, and Undyne wants Asgore to become a god and kill all humans more than anyone.
That means he either personally promised her to do this, or that he never once tried to talk to her about other ways of dealing with the surface.

>>176134637
they were bad at bullet hell games and ragequit life

>>176134637
nani

>>176134505
She could have blown up the door to the ruins so that the human couldn't have left. When the alternate to that is them being killed the moral thing to do is blow up the door not let them go. She did the equivalent of letting a child run onto a busy highway because she didn't want to be mean by locking the door.

That goes much further then just being more moral.
>this was obviously her last ditch attempt at getting Asgore out of his plan. Can't question someone's integrity for actually holding up the threats they make.
She was gone for likely decades. She knew it wasn't working after the first human but instead of trying to change it or try a different method she did nothing because ???.

Shes not a bad character on the whole but a lot of her stuff is very poorly written

>>176134879
Couldn't they just stay with Toriel?

>>176134886
How many times have you used the highway analogy by now

>>176134937
Does it matter when its accurate? Fine she knows that behind a door is a bunch of people that want to kill a kid. She has it in her ability to protect them but chooses not to because it might be mean for them to have to stay indoors where they won't get murdered.
How can you honestly defend that logic?

>>176134886
>She could have blown up the door to the ruins so that the human couldn't have left. When the alternate to that is them being killed the moral thing to do is blow up the door not let them go. She did the equivalent of letting a child run onto a busy highway because she didn't want to be mean by locking the door.

To be fair, had she done that, everyone here would only ever talk about her as kidnapper, who forces children into her twisted game of family and denies them the chance to return to their real families.

>>176134070
>The issue is that we know her plan wouldn't have worked.
We don't actually know that, we can just assume it had risk to it but so did every other option.
>>176134389
>but the game does give her somewhat of a holier-than-thou attitude regarding this,
I think it's getting way overstated at this point though. She has a few lines and she's the only one in the game to directly criticize Asgore for anything he did. Considering the game's message against killing it would be out of place to not have any reprimand towards Asgore.
>because people rightfully bring up the fact that if she's willing to criticize him like this, she probably should have had some self-reflection about letting the previous six go as well.
She does during the ruins segment.
Again from the storytelling perspective, her issues have been covered already and brought to player's attention, calling her out again just because she's criticizing someone else just wouldn't be right.
Toby was obviously rushing up the end though and there could have been more reflection on what most characters did but at the same time their actions and subsequent redemption during the story do the necessary job. It's just not necessarily in the fresh memory of many players at that point.

>>176134918
Who the fuck would want to stay with that fat-ass old hag?

>>176135124
>We don't actually know that, we can just assume it had risk to it but so did every other option.
Its literally the only reason that you can beat Omega Flowey. We saw that it failed before any of the TP stuff

>>176135104
At least they would have been alive? Plus then only one kid would have had to live to old age and die and she could have forced peace at that point by co-operating with their soul. This is kind of a shitty defense because it completely dismisses any legit criticisms people might have towards her as people just wanting to bitch about the character

>>176135124
I personally liked Toriel throughout the game and yet that segment did lessen my enjoyment of her character. I can't speak for everyone, of course.

>We don't actually know that, we can just assume it had risk to it but so did every other option.
The moment you learn how Asriel and Chara died, you know that Toriel's plan never would have worked, because unless the human in question dies naturally and offers their soul to either of them, killing a human, absorbing their soul would just allow them to immediately wrestle for control and throw a wrench in the plan. It happened with Asriel and Chara and the absorption there was consensual, how do you think it would end if murder is involved?

>>176134886
The highway analogy is still broken because every single child knew that they were either going to get killed or have to kill Asgore.
It's also retarded because kids aren't actually running at highways because they've been taught that they get killed if they do.

Besides - would it have been moral if it had been an adult instead who wanted to risk their life trying to get out of the underground but was forced by her to not to?

>>176134637
Because they couldn't reset.

>>176133713
Asgore wasn't completely complacent. For example, he hired Alphys because he was looking for a way to break the barrier using monster souls. Also, entering headcanon territory here, but I think Asgore actively censored any information about humans (including Chara) to ensure that monsters don't know how humans look. Despite the fact that seven humans have already fallen down in a time period where phones and camcorders exist, none of the Royal Guards can recognize a human on sight. Frisk looks very similar to Chara, and yet nobody blinks an eye. How can monsters not know the face of the enemy or the face of the king's son, unless Asgore is intentionally preventing them from knowing. Keeping monsters in the dark reduces the chance of monsters reporting humans to Asgore or attacking humans for their souls.

>>176135398
>Plus then only one kid would have had to live to old age and die and she could have forced peace at that point by co-operating with their soul
And said kid would be absolutely filled with rage over dying away from their family, never to see their parents, grandparents, siblings and loved ones again. And not just because Toriel said they'd get killed, but because she never even gave them the chance to try.

I actually do agree with you that she should have done something and the the criticism is completely legit, but a lot of the other options would have ended with a similarly dubious view of her.

WHere am I
help i'm lost

>>176135732
Welcome to /utg/, home of monsters, cute pictures, and arguments about space-time ethics.

>>176135515
The point of the analogy is that Toriel had it within her power to stop anyone from dying at any point but never did. If they were all adults then yeah it makes sense and I can't blame her for her choices but we know that Frisk isn't and that she still lets them go knowing they're most likely going to die. Plus she had likely decades to blow up the door and just explain to them that she did it in the past. Fuck she could have even lied and said that it was to keep the other monsters away.

>>176135603
Decades though would have soften that blow and she could have explained it indepth to them when they were older and capable of actually making informed choices.

>>176135584
Most other monsters weren't alive at the time. Gerson is the only one who remembers.

>>176135406
There's the difference of the monster who was alive refusing while the soul whose owner was dead wanted to carry on.
The ancient texts describe monster taking a human soul giving them incredible powers so they must have seen it happen.
It was after the war that this was written and since I find it unlikely that many monsters were given willing human souls around those times, the idea that a monster with a soul could kill a human and dominate their soul seems to have some validity to it at least.
>>176135203
Omega Flowey had six souls against one soulless husk of a monster. It's not necessarily comparable to a situation of a monster and a soul against human soul.

>>176135814
I don't like monstwrs or time I guess I'll go now

>>176135847
Forcing them to be trapped down there isn't right either and that's canon. You can turn and twist any other options around as much as you want, but this isn't the right course of action either. There's no right choice in a dilemma, there just might be an obviously wrong one.

>>176134637
>>176134879
This kind of makes the message of the game fall flat on its face. The game chides you for trying to see every outcome/replaying it as the power to save/load is inherently corrupting, yet the other kids failed with this OP ability? Seems like they needed more continues.

>>176136126
Ok. If you change your mind, We'll be here.

>>176135584
True, he at least had enough initiative to try and avoid having to kill anyone else. I don't think he actively censored Asriel and Chara, just stopped talking about them and let entropy remove them from the Underground's collective memory.

>>176136127
>Forcing them to be trapped down there isn't right either
The alternative would require murder, wouldn't it? Them being trapped underground is better than them getting out by murdering someone.

>>176136183
>>176134637
Maybe they ran out of determination or weren't willing to become Charas.
It's like how Undyne almost doesn't die in the neutral route where you kill her but still does anyways.

>>176135584
>>176136234
The monsters give a speech about Chara and Asriel when you enter new home. They haven't been forgotten or censored at all.

>>176135584
>none of the Royal Guards can recognize a human on sight.
Okay hold up just a second there buddy
The only Royal Guards that don't attack you on sight are RG01 and RG02, while the rest, including Undyne who Asgore personally trained, do.

You can make the argument that the dogs didn't know you were a human, but then that just means they blindly attack anyone in the woods which is just poor law enforcement.

>>176136275
That's why it's called dilemma. Letting them out of the ruins isn't the same as forcing them to murder/be murdered by Asgore though and Sans confirms this. Either way if they decide to go on with that it's not on her.

>>176136506
>Letting them out of the ruins isn't the same as forcing them to murder/be murdered by Asgore though
It literally is

>>176136468
>they blindly attack anyone in the woods which is just poor law enforcement
It wouldn't be the only thing the monsters execute poorly.

>>176136635
>>176136468
Bullete hells are how monsters talk to each other. They were just trying to talk to you. Remember that the dog couple just think you're a puppy

Forget the Asgore argument. When did Toriel ask Sans to protect any human that came through the ruins?

>>176136468
When you walk into Grillby's when all the dogs are there, none of them do anything to you. Granted, Dogamy and Dogaressa realized you were human when they encountered you until you disguised your scent.

>>176136729
Sans tells the story of when she asked him at the MTT resort.

>>176136729
No ones even talking about Asgore?

>>176136591
Then why was Sans trying to raise you to question whether getting out of the underground was really that important or not? Clearly you can make friends with just about anyone so it's not like you have to actually worry about people being out to get you, and Asgore isn't exactly busy trying to trident you either until you arrive at the barrier.
You're full of shit.

>>176136843
Literally six times before when Toriel let a human out of the ruins tt ended in them dying. Are you honestly trying to say that she didn't know what would most likely happen?
You're full of shit here

>>176136716
Do their bullet patterns just happen to be giant axes and knives

>>176135847
>Decades though would have soften that blow and she could have explained it indepth to them when they were older and capable of actually making informed choices.

And what if the informed choice is "I want to see my family again"?

>>176135948
I mean, it happened with Asriel as well, he won the struggle, but at what cost? And while the murals have a depiction, nobody knows where or how exactly that happened. For all we know, it could have been a human realizing the fusion and forcing the body into a self-implosion, there's no evidence to suggest that complete domination is viable.

>>176136964
It's not like she's lying about it. Canon is canon, denying their freedom to the rest of the underground or even risk their life in hope of freedom is wrong, end of story.

>>176137176
I disagree but there's not really more to be said about this I think. Regardless of anything that might have been said I had fun talking to you about this and your pov was intresting so thank you for
>>176137135
At least they wouldn't be dead? I'm just thinking of the lesser of two evils

>>176137135
Not complete domination, but I still think the monster would be the one in charge and that's what's important. Chara couldn't force Asriel to kill, what Asriel wanted to do in that situation is unclear. I don't think the soul could stop the action if it had been other way around, like Asriel wanting to kill the humans but Chara's souls trying to stop them.
If that was the case, what exactly would the humans have been afraid of, or Asgore/Flowey planning to do with all the souls if they suspected they couldn't control their power at all?
I'm not saying that it's impossible that the soul(s) could stop a monster from wielding their power to the fullest, I just don't think the canon exactly supports that idea meaning it stays at the level of speculation and we should treat the idea as such.

>>176137176
You are aware that people can disagree with Sans or even Toby? You can't say that something is canonically more moral than something else when its a personal opinion. Not that I disagree or care but don't be dumb

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>all these composers making soundtracks based on various AUs
>OuterTale is the only that's listed by their composer in one easy list
>it's also the only one that anybody bothered to upload

>>176137535
>At least they wouldn't be dead? I'm just thinking of the lesser of two evils
Anon do you have any fucking idea how horrifying that sounds? Telling children that a lifetime of imprisonment, however relatively comfortable, is preferable to possible death? Holy shit man.

>>176137836
I thought it was more a straight up question of will. Chara was determined and thus was able to take over, but Asriel was able to find the resolve to stand up to them when he realised what was about to happen, because harming anyone was against his core.

>>176137960
>Telling children that a lifetime of imprisonment, however relatively comfortable, is preferable to possible death?
How the fuck is it not? Toriel put herself in a position of authority over these kids when she all but adopted them and it was her job to keep them safe. When the choices are either you for sure die or I keep you locked up safe then the correct choice is to keep them locked up safe

What the fuck are you even auguring here

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gote

>>176137836
>I just don't think the canon exactly supports that idea meaning it stays at the level of speculation and we should treat the idea as such.
Canon says that without harmony between the two, disaster is sure to follow, that is the only canonical event that we have to go by, the only one. Even the six souls, dead for years and years revolted against Flowey. If monster takes a human soul and exerts control over it, and then takes another one, do you not think that the two would overpower the monster?

>If that was the case, what exactly would the humans have been afraid of, or Asgore/Flowey planning to do with all the souls if they suspected they couldn't control their power at all?

Because clearly nobody had any fucking idea what would happen and THAT terrified them. Nobody knew and that's what scared all of them.

>>176138223
Toriel is sending mixed messages in this picture.

>>176138157
That suppressing the free will of children and eventual adults, detaining them from the life they once knew forever, is still fucking evil, regardless of your greater good.

>>176137905
In that case they'd direct their criticism towards Toby and his view instead of talking about how they don't like a character.
Once you start going about how you don't like what X did because of this and this you're already talking about the in-universe canon which would include the morals the game's writing wants to propose as correct.
Opening with "I don't like how Undertale proposes this sort of morals as right because..." is entirely different matter, possibly entirely valid to bring up and compare to a grander scheme but it's not exactly what people usually point out from what I've seen. It is often brought up, for example, whenever someone criticizes the game for chastising you for what could be considered self-defense. Never when someone wants to just shit on a character they don't like.

>>176138157
This would almost surely end with one of the children going insane and shanking Toriel one night.

Why do so many draw the goats with four fingers and a tail when their sprites clearly show them with five and none?

>>176138304
Its more evil to allow them to be killed when she could have prevented it. At the very least waiting until their adults and can make informed choice and then letting them leave is better then fucking letting a child go into a situation where they are for sure going to die What the fuck is wrong with your morals?

Plus she still could have gone with them and tried to protect them instead of just giving them up for dead. Toriel had tons of options
>>176138441
Toriel is never in fear for her life from the kids. Hell she doesn't even believe you're a killer on genocide even though you have dust all over you until you actually shank her in the guy

Holy shit, this is still a thing? Like, what is there to talk about anymore? Or are you just exclusiveu jerking to spiders, goats, and metaton at this point?

>>176138197
>that is the only canonical event that we have to go by, the only one
Where did the idea of monster absorbing a human soul come from then? It having happened before seems like the only viable explanation to me.

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>>176136373
I'm specifically referring to what humans look like.

>>176135914
Age is irrelevant here. You think there wouldn't be pictures of these kids plastered on walls in the royal police academy? Taught in children history books? No scientists wanting to examine the corpses? Chara dies in 201X, and technology only improves from there. The probability of there being absolutely no photographic evidence of these humans located anywhere, especially in the police force created to locate and kill these humans, is fucking zero. Unless somebody is intentionally preventing it. To be fair, there might be a family photo with Chara smiling in their room, which begs the question why no one realizes Frisk's similarity to Chara. Guess all the monsters slept through that part of history class? Or it looks more like pic related.

>>176137005
The dog couple is suspicious of you because of your unusual smell, but they never accuse you of being a human. Doggo never confirms if you're a human, so we don't know if knows. The other dogs want the pets.

>>176136468
We can't even say for certain that Undyne knows. She think she spots you (probably because humans in comic books are close enough), but even she double-checks with Papyrus by asking him what clothing you're wearing to confirm her suspicions. It's the same as RG01 and RG02 who only realize you must be the human because you're wearing a striped shirt.

>>176138616
>To be fair, there might be a family photo with Chara smiling in their room, which begs the question why no one realizes Frisk's similarity to Chara.
I don't think many people wander into the bedroom of the King's dead children to get a look at them.

>>176137945
https://scarletmoonrecords.bandcamp.com/album/prescription-for-sleep-undertale

>>176138575
You picked a really bad thread to talk about this when people are actually talking about the game for once

This conversation has been going on for way too long.

http://www.strawpoll.me/12916521

Just vote here and then shut up about it

>>176138830
Monsters loaf around the king's house all the time though. At the very least, it'd be kind of weird for the monsters monologuing at you to not know what Asriel and Chara look like.

>>176139170
Impeding the free movement of the children is violating the NAP and thus inherently immoral.

>>176139170
>people honestly think it was better for Toriel to ditch the kids to die then to make them stay
I'll admit that i'm surprised

>>176139170
It doesn't really matter either way. The humans have BG so they would eventually escape from her anyways. In fact, it's entirely possible that Toriel used to put her foot down like a good parent, but due to resets the end result has always been letting them leave.

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OH MY GOD
it's chara

>>176139170
Watching a child slowly die inside, days-to-months-to-years, with the full knowledge that they will never see anyone they loved again, all in the care of their jailor, however benevolent. And with no chance to even try and succeed.

Fuck man, that is a living hell.

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>>176139875
I love them!

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>>176139875
Lesser dog comes to save the day!

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>>176139875
Oh no!

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>>176139170
>No "Go with the children, taking care of them on their journey" option.

Baka

>>176139170
wait wasn't the entire point that it didn't matter cause the kids will just leave anyways cause Toriel couldn't actually feasibly force them to stay in her house?

what's the point then?

>>176140134
She could have blown up the entrance into Snowdin. It was her plan at the start of the game when Frisk tried to leave

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>>176140017
I can't believe Chara was Karkat Vantas the entire time.

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>>176139968
I love pictures of Chara dying and being dead

>>176140190
Brilliant, blow up the exit and thereby ensure that for the rest of their lives they will hate you, or one day they will find out you did it and hate you for that.

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>>176140017
Fixed.

>>176140414
I personally think it would better to be hated if the kid is still around to hate you but I guess most people here prefer kids actually dying to them being depressed and mad at Toriel

>>176140190
wasn't there other monsters who lived in the ruins who wouldn't be pleased with that?

>>176140547
Its a plot point that Toriel hates the other monsters and they're all scared of her. Do you really think that she lets them walk through her house?

>>176140634
>Its a plot point that Toriel hates the other monsters

IIRC she doesn't hate them, they are all kinda scared of her though

>>176140730
Her genocide dialog where she says that a genocidal Frisk is just like the other monsters would beg to differ

>>176140794
She says you're no different from "them out there", which is a gulf of difference between hating all the monsters in the ruins

>>176140634
>>176140730
Half and half, she seems to intimidate them, though that might be because of the humans who may have been injured in the past. Definitely scared of her.

>>176140794
>Her genocide dialog where she says that a genocidal Frisk is just like the other monsters would beg to differ
I still wouldn't say she outright hates them, but is just completely disillusioned by the fact that they support Asgore's plan. Otherwise, why would she choose to govern them in neutral endings?

>I personally think it would better to be hated if the kid is still around to hate you but I guess most people here prefer kids actually dying to them being depressed and mad at Toriel
Taking into account that Undertale takes place likely over the course of a day. Now look at the possibility that most of the kids were around 10 years old. Average human life expectancy is around 75-ish, but let's say it's 60.

That's 50 fucking years of this shit, can you even picture what that does to a human psyche? If you wanted someone to commit genocide, there's your recipe for it.

>>176141152
last part was to >>176140519

>>176140982
Point is that she isn't letting people through her house anyways and they aren't talking to people on the outside since no one knows Toriel is there aside from the spiders who are mostly isolated from the cold

>>176141289
That, while a nasty thing to do, does sort of makes sense. If she let people in, they could pass through the door and alert the guards that she's housing a human. If monsters know for certain that she's sheltering even one, Asgore would be forced to mobilize against her.

>>176141152
Nigger them being not dead is better then them being dead period. Jesus I can't believe people are agurung this.

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>>176140328
I would post a pic chara dying like dio that got drawn by that mettacat drawfag when they did a request
but i forgot to save it and it's probably lost in the archive somewhere

>>176141494
Never said it didn't make sense. The post I was respondibg asked if her blowing up the door would upset the other monsters. I said it didn't matter since they weren't allowed to use it anyways

>>176141512
But dead humans is better.

>>176141512
It's cool dude, spend 50 years imprisoned for the greater good and we'll get right back to this discussion.

hyperboles against what toriel did, deeply-seated arguments for what she did

I think I know what I prefer

>>176141706
Shut up Chara
>>176141720
If my choices are 50 years or dead I think not being dead is the better choice. Plus they can always off themselves if they want. Same result and Toriel still gets the soul to end the war with

>>176141917
>Same result and Toriel still gets the soul to end the war with
Did you ever perhaps consider, that if the human has resentment for Toriel, they will use this opportunity to royally fuck shit up?

>>176142123
But she doesn't believe that's possible or her argument towards Asgore makes no sense

>>176141512
The rhetoric here breaks when you consider that they had an actual chance of not ending up dead.
Yeah, it was unlikely, but it's not like there was a pit of lava right outside Ruins door in which case blowing up the entrance would have been the right thing to do. But that's just not the case.
Considering that in a full blown war NO human was killed, her idea that they might successfully escape wasn't even all that far-fetched. She might have not always known about the kids dying either because despite the memes I don't think Asgore would have exactly kept sending her letters about that or something.

>>176142309
>The rhetoric here breaks when you consider that they had an actual chance of not ending up dead.
Maybe for the first or even second time but by kid six? Nah fuck that she was fully aware of what she was doing when she let Frisk and the rest leave

>>176142228
How the fuck would she know about how soul absorption works? If the human dies and Toriel gets the soul to end the war with, it doesn't matter who uses the soul. By that point, the human has a resentment for every monster, because they've been imprisoned. Using that soul would be like gargling with cyanide.

>>176142517
No one believes that the soul is conscious and can control the monster. That's the bases of her whole criticism towards Asgore

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>>176141610

>>176142384
Still better to die trying than die in hopelessness. If she'd forced the kids to stick around they'd be just driven to suicide because her way of prisoning herself in there isn't exactly a catchy tune.

>>176142384
You can't blame her for something the kids did. They weren't forced to leave or go face Asgore.

>>176142976
If she truly believed that then why didn't she attempt to help them out instead of ditching them to go die? She does it during TP and it works. There was nothing stopping her from doing that the first six times

Toriel not being a bitch and confronting Asgore > Letting the kids go after some resistance > Letting the kids go with no resistance > forcibly trapping the kids, herself, and all the monsters present in the ruins

>>176142787
I have no idea what your argument is now.

>If my choices are 50 years or dead I think not being dead is the better choice. Plus they can always off themselves if they want. Same result and Toriel still gets the soul to end the war with
This is what was said and I suggested that the human who died for this purpose, could royally fuck everything up because they'd hate all monsters especially Toriel. Nobody's outside knowledge of souls or anything matters in this, I don't know what you're trying to say.

>>176142976
If she truly believed that then why didn't she attempt to help them out instead of ditching them to go die? She does it during TP and it works. There was nothing stopping her from doing that the first six times
>>176143130
>I suggested that the human who died for this purpose, could royally fuck everything up because they'd hate all monsters especially Toriel.
How would they fuck anything up if they were dead? They aren't ghosts

>>176143095
She was either too weak, too indecisive, or feared it would cause massive political turmoil, thought she tried what she could, any of these fit, though none of them are in a very good light.

The only difference with Frisk is that because they're the seventh, they're the absolute point of no return.

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>>176142850
That's the one bless you anon

>>176143303
my internet connection fucked up here>>176143095

Anyways yeah that's my point. She let those kids die and i'm honestly surprised that people are saying it was the right choice. Like you guys can admit that it was a fuck up on her part. That's okay. Every other character fucked up at least once in the game or in the backstory.
>>176143129
put the trapping one after confronting Asgore and I agree

>>176143095
Same reason she holed up in the ruins in the first place.

>>176142850
best ending

>>176143564
Because she didn't want to talk to her ex? Sorry if I think that's a godawful reason when the alternate is letting a child die alone and for someone to get the means to commit massive genocide

>>176142850
I just finished Stardust Crusaders a few days ago. That was the hypest shit, on par with Battle Tendency

>>176143524
>She let those kids die and i'm honestly surprised that people are saying it was the right choice.
She's stuck in a dilemma, you're using a hyperbole and ignoring the opposing choice she had. It's no wonder people don't agree with you and instead agree that the lesson the game goes with about allowing people to make their choices is the right one.

>>176143683
>Because she didn't want to talk to her ex?
To be fair, that talk would involve "we should not kill the humans", which would almost immediately get translated into "the queen doesn't want us to go free" to the kingdom

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The spider a cute! CUTE!!!

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>>176143321
No problem. I was just drawing lewds for the Undyne thread and happened to look at what's going on here.

http://imgur.com/a/hG7Lu

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post comfy

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>>176143930

>>176143894
That's a cute Floe

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>>176143930

>>176143807
>instead agree that the lesson the game goes with about allowing people to make their choices is the right one.
That falls flat when its literal children. Hey you know what parents don't allow kids to do? Get drunk and do drugs so why would I be cool with someone allowing a child to get themselves killed for no reason.
>>176143863
Then she should have trapped them in the ruins. Point blank when the first human fell she thought that Asgore was going to take the soul and commit genocide. She let the kid go knowing that it was not only going to be their deaths but likely the deaths of billions. After the second kid fell she should have realized that something was up and confronted Asgore herself. She could even have asked him point blank in front of the monsters why he was stalling and force him to come clean but instead she let 5 more kids pointlessly die

I'm really tired of talking about this now. Its obvious we just disagree at a fundamental point and nothing else is going to get done. I'm done responding

>>176143875
Taking away all of the baby spider's flowers!
Replacing them with a wasp nest!
The baby spider getting stung many times!

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>>176143930

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>>176143930

>>176143683
What was there to talk about? Even if a man who's been killing children for like hundred years would stop with one stern talk - which would be just pathetic - it's not like she hadn't already tried that and it's not like it was her responsibility to stop him.

You're arguing as if him killing children was somehow her fault. It's not in any way or form.

>>176138575
Ball Game

>>176143894
H-hot, pun intended. Will there be a follow up with all three?

>>176144102
Parents allow kids to do all kind of things that could get them killed like walk from home to school. What if they end up running on the highway???
The kids are like 10, not toddlers who can barely talk. Their brain works enough they could understand the concept of getting seriously hurt or dying.

>>176144396
I'm done talking about this but I want to make it clear that I was in no way shape or form blaming Toriel for Asgore killing the humans. That's all on him

I blame her for giving him the ability to in the first place

>>176138575
Wow, from where you come here baby?

>>176144102
>That falls flat when its literal children. Hey you know what parents don't allow kids to do? Get drunk and do drugs so why would I be cool with someone allowing a child to get themselves killed for no reason.
THIS.

>>176144584
That's all fine and dandy if there wasn't a serial murderer on the loose! She should just let them walk into their inevitable deaths because "I'm 10 so I'm a grownup now"? Ridiculous. Yes, if she put her foot down Toriel would be too overprotective of these children as they grow up, and it is a flaw of hers, but that doesn't make the opposite end of the care spectrum an even remotely acceptable answer.

>>176143894
Do you ever take requests

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>>176131227
finals week is almost up, anon, don't worry, I'll be back!

>>176145097
Honestly they mean well I and see what they're coming from. They're just going too far into the completely blameless though. Asgore did a lot worse but Toriel isn't without sin. All the characters are flawed in ways and that's part of what makes them so good and interesting. Hell I actually like Toriel a bit more now that i'm thinking about her motivations and character more.
She was a woman that was completely overwhelmed and put her own personal values over the bigger picture. Its a massive flaw of hers and why she would make a shit ruler just like Asgore who put his subjects desires above what he knew was right was a shit ruler. they're both counters to each other and were probably a great pair but separate for Asgore that led to his kingdom suffering when it didn't need to and for Toriel that led to her letting six kids die a pointless death because she gave up.

>>176145097
>She should just let them walk into their inevitable deaths because "I'm 10 so I'm a grownup now"?
Hyperbole is still not a real argument. The point is that they're no longer in the diapers and get told that if they face Asgore they die. A point which Frisk proves wrong anyways, but denying them from arriving to the rest of the underground and making all the friends they do who warn them about facing off against Asgore is just wrong.
Considering Toby confirmed the deaths of the other children to be work of Asgore do you really think some of them didn't make friends in the underground as well? All of them had a choice to live in the underground, something Asgore's ruling probably didn't make very easy but the choice was always there. It's the kids themselves who gave Asgore the ability to kill them, not Toriel.

This feels like a giant non-argument, but Toriel couldn't have destroyed the door because otherwise the game would have just ended at the ruins, and you may as well have just played the demo instead.

>>176145631
Blaming Toriel for other things if fine, but saying it would have been morally better to trap them in a tiny, lifeless living space is not. That's just looking for excuses to shit on her.

>>176145650
>Considering Toby confirmed the deaths of the other children to be work of Asgore
Toby declared any tweets he made as non-canon and deleted them.

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>>176143989
>Floe

>>176145785
It's still suggested by Toriel that Asgore will kill you if you go. Not "Monsters", "Asgore".

>>176143894
I wanna fuck that flower

>>176145983
Oh I don't care about what you're auguring about I was just correcting you

>>176145774
I still belive the trap them option would have better and more moral but lets call that a fundamental difference between us and leave it at that. Both characters are flawed but worth liking and getting a happy ending

>>176144223
Treating the wasp stings with the best monster medicine in the market!
Giving the spider her flowers back!
The spider happily hugging the flowers!

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>>176145650
I'm well-aware that a lot of the responsibility of what happened in the underground is based on what the kids did with their resets. They could have chosen to stay with Toriel, they could have avoided fighting Asgore, but they eventually gave in to fighting and dying. But this is about what Toriel's actions based on her limited knowledge of events. She didn't know her actions didn't matter; she was the grownup and they were the kids. And you simply don't let kids, even if they're 10 year old runaways, play outside with the friendly neighborhood serial killer without adult supervision. I fail to understand how this isn't intuitively obvious.

>tiny
The ruins are a lot bigger than what's playable, and there's quite a few monster families that live here. It's not just Toriel and the human.

>>176145983
Does Toriel sneak out of the ruins to buy snails from Napstablook? Because we don't really know how reliable Toriel's information is about the world outside the ruins.

Hmm, this scene is hard. Harry/Ron/Hermione shooting the breeze with skeles at Grillbys. Hard to think of interesting conversation between them without running off into unnecessary exposition. I do like this bit though.

Grillby reappeared with two plates of food he laid before the new arrivals.

"Erm," Began Ron. "How do you eat-"

"with a lot of ketchup." To prove his point, Sans took the ketchup bottle and allowed it to pour over the burger on his plate unchecked.

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Anyone else having issues with 4chan? I can post here but not on other /vg/ threads

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>>176147134
Nier and STALKER are fine for me.

>>176147220
Weird

I just want to shit post about a new card that came out on /dng/

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>>176147134
>AsgoreLearnedThatJashiHappened.png

>>176147539
So what's the deal with that? /co/ is shitting themselves over it

Also Aku and Asgore drinking tea together, when? I already have art of him drinking tea with Iroh so it seems the next logical choice
>>176147220
Fixed it. Thanks for trying to help

>>176147539
REMOVE ASHI

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>>176147764
There are two broad camps: Schadenfreude at Father/Daughter fans being proven wrong, and anger at her existence in the first place.

I'm just impressed at how hard they went at it. And I liked the father/daughter idea

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>>176147539
The amount of salt from this is amazing

>>176148031
>>176147764

Not that anon, but, to rephrase it. What's the deal with that - for a person that doesn't watch SJ? Why is that such a big deal, what are father/daughter fans what is the context of everything?

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>>176148398
Oh, derp.

Over the course of this season, Ashi and her six sisters were sent to kill Jack. Jack killed six of them, but was able to subdue Ashi and get her to question her commitment, and in this episode they developed romantic feelings. Father/Daughter is the now-defunct idea that since Jack is chronologically in his 70s he would instead be a father figure to replace the father figure that is Aku. There is a mixture of disappointment that it wasn't this way, and annoyance at romance at all. My only criticism is this season could have used a few more episodes to properly pace some of this stuff out, it does feel rushed at times.

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>>176148398
>>176148776
To add to this,
Samurai Jack finally gets a fifth season to give the show a conclusion, and they add a female sidekick/girlfriend which takes some of the focus of the show away from Jack. People want to watch Jack, which is what the show has always been about, not this new character. This week's episode, which was a 30-minute long metaphor for dating, foreplay, and sex, was one of the weaker episodes. On the plus side, the samurai did reach first base after the climax, so he does have Ball Game.

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How y'all doin' utg?
It's already Sunday, I can't believe time flies too fast like this aha.

Wish I got some Uni work done through it, but beggars can't be choosers.

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>>176149926
whatever happens I'm dying of tiredness

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>>176150443
I guess I am in a bit of a rush, but I can't complain too much. I'll probably play some vidya before I begin anyhow.

How's your weekend been going, fellow Asrielfag?

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All the people talking about it makes me think I should watch Samurai Jack. I never did.
>>176150636
It's gone most quietly, just like I hoped. Droning at this point about it but I need rest. All of the rest.

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>>176149926
You and me both. I think I'll get to hammering how some bits of one of my final art projects, finish up the online portion of physics, and then hook up the new printer to take care of the hand-in problem.

At least I finally got my hands on a used copy of Triforce Heroes.

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>tfw decided to stop watching new Jack until rewatching the old Jack
>Everyone won't stop talking about it
THAT'S OKAY. I'M FINE.

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knock knock...

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>>176151291
I'm probably gonna be playing some Lightning Returns for an hour or two. Gosh that game's fun.

>>176151645
You the anon that's majoring in Bio?
Hope you've been doin' well!

Business Writing is a cancer class, so I gotta work my butt off to keep the 4.0 afloat.

Anyways, as for anyone else readin' in, did any of y'all have any Doodle Requests for me?
I'll try to get them done by next week. Pic related was the last thing I did for the funsies.

>>176152180
Who's there?

>>176151291
>>176149426
>>176148776

Okay.
> only hear the hype around this date episode at the side
> expect this massive bomb that changes fucking everything
> basically jack enslaving and dominating her into being a good, submissive wife and mother of many children right in front of the audience, and the whole physical and mental process being animated with the conclusion that deep down, this is all she ever wanted
> or something to that effect
> hear what it's about
> it's fucking nothing

Well with France, that makes two disappointments.

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>>176152180

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>>176152180

Haha Undertale!

Elatrednu!

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>>176152785
Undertale is my favorite character!

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>>176152276
Anon, it's /co/. They're the fucking kings of making mountains out of ant hills.

>>176152618
This made me giggle

>>176152940
>Undertale backwards almost spells Elu Tran if you rearrange all the letters
>Elu Tran posted all the extended Undertale BGMs on youtube

but what could it mean?

>>176153343
DEEPEST LORE

>>176153343
It means we have to give Elu Tran the D.

Your fav is hitting on you, and they are not drunk. What do?

>>176155497
fuck

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>>176155497
Make him get aroused, and he'll kick me with other thing instead of his hands.

>>176155497
Just roll with it

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I really do appreciate it when nips go ahead and try to translate their own work.

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>>176152230
Yeah, that'd be me. Doing okay for the most part. I just wish the cycle of "everyone decides to make the most noise on Sunday" would finally come to a halt. So much harder trying to get work done.

>>176155497
call him a big gay

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>>176156215

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>>176155497

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>>176156556
Heh.

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>>176156185
bleh. I think I'm just gonna do some stuff later. I might just take a nap for all I know.

Glad you're doin' well.
You played any vidya during the weekend or nah?

My classes also assigned a fuckton of projects, so idunno how to feel about that.

>>176155497
smooch and engage in combat

im gladi dont know what the fuck is going on anymore

>>176155837
>filename
>resolution
the fuck anon

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>>176157008
I ended up spending a lot more time not actually doing anything than I would have preferred, but I still managed to get a few more hours into SMT4. I need to be sure to remind myself to actively procrastinate next weekend.

A nap sounds like a great idea considering how tired you were earlier this week.

>>176152940
Delta rune!

>>176157947
Cropped pic, anon.

How should Frisk be a badass and start kicking demon ass?