>"turn based combat is a relic of the past and is irredeemable

To be fair, games like FFVII do have aged turn based combat. Recently Atlus has been paving the way to faster and more fun turn based combat with SMTIV and Persona 5.

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It's pretty easy to tell if somebody was born in the year 2000 if you look at their ID and it says "under 18 until xx/xx/2018"

>>389661515
Well, if all they played is FF I wouldn't blame them, FF has some of the trashiest combat in turn based systems, even for their time.

the micheal bay generation
>what's happening? they're just standing there!! KILL THEM, GUN SHOTS, EXPLOSIONS, DO SOMETHING

>>389661615
how was persona 5 faster? how do you make turn based combat faster even, shorter attack animations?

I agree with this opinion and I was born in 94

>>389661515
I was born in 1991 though

>Get bored of turn based games being easy
>Play Nocturne on Hard
>Die several times

Turn based is great if you like stratergy but most games allow you to powerlevel to circumvent any difficulty.

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Now the dust has settled, can we all agree that Legend of the Dragoon has the best turn based combat system of all time?

>>389661615
>faster and more fun turn based combat with SMTIV and Persona 5.
How is it faster and better?

>>389662785
>most games allow you to powerlevel to circumvent any difficulty.
So do SMT games, I hope you don't think Kaneko's pokemon games are hard.
>>389663773
No, go to bed Lavitz.

>>389664349
>So do SMT games

Nocturne can sure but you'll be powerleveling for a LONG time for that case. Most enemies can still fuck you over if you have demon weaknesses and you can't ideally prepare for every possible enemy encounter. Same with get RNG'd to death.

>>389662040
faster=/=better

I like to think the 2000 babbies don't even have turn based on their radar and don't bother talking about it while the 90s kids are the ones behind the "turn based is bad" shitposting.

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It's not that it's a relic, it's just evidently hard to change it to be fresh and has hack productions like Bravely Default/FF "Remakes"/DS Shovelware attached to it. It had its day, develop something new or continue to retread in the steps of better, creative men. Those are the choices. I gave Lost Odyssey a pass because of its storytelling, but I would've preferred a less numbing battle system.

Don't fucking bore me. That's all I ask of video games.
FFVII wasn't boring when it came out, but it's boring now without a doubt. Mainly because I already know the plot, but beyond that. FFVII was engaging for a variety of reasons, and for the same reasons it was critically acclaimed at the time, it is now less engaging; Games got better. They got/get better because there are developers who aren't uncreative hacks like the majority of the fucks Square Enix prefers to keep in their company now. You can't praise old games for being old and dismiss new games for being new. All games were new at one point, and all games theoretically get old.

tl;dr You're a faggot, no surprise

i can see people that grew up in the early 3d era thinking turn based is bad
not because action based is better, but because early 3d turn based was such a fucking slog

Turn based combat is great. ATB is shit though

>>389665160
This. The one good thing about FFX is that they got rid of ATB and just made it properly turn-based.

>>389662040
Yep, that's basically it. FFIX is the biggest offender of super slow loading times and attack animations I can think of. Another aspect is the damage your attacks deal: if average damage done is over 50% of health, it follows that battles are "faster paced" since everyone dies pretty quickly

>>389664490
>but you'll be powerleveling for a LONG time for that case
Not really, as long as you get Charge and Pierce you've already set yourself for easy modo, unless you're playing on the hardest difficulty you don't even need Freikugel.
>Most enemies can still fuck you over if you have demon weaknesses
Nah, if you're not steamrolling random encounters you haven't learned how to play.
And yeah, can can totally prepare for every possible enemy encounter because 90% of the demons you meet are fodder.
>Same with get RNG'd to death.
This really doesn't happen, even if you push the old Mot meme.
>>389665008
>it's just evidently hard to change it to be fresh
Bullshit, you're just looking in the wrong places, turn based systems are extremely varied, you sure won't see much if you only keep on playing the same old FF and DQ clones though, that's for sure.
Besides, people do not actually want real change in turn based games, otherwise we'd be all playing stuff like Unlimited: Saga, Natural Doctrine or Baten Kaitos.

>>389664901
Nah, 2000's babbies just think you're talking about pokemon

But the turn based combat is bad if you don't build a system around it that allows customization.

If you're going to limit me, atleast give something that allows me to work around those limits.

>>389665316
None of the enemies in FFIX have that much HP that fights drag on, though. Even the final boss can die in seven attacks. You're right about the game being slow, though, attack animations take a long time and even starting a battle takes a while.

>>389665327
>Not really, as long as you get Charge and Pierce you've already set yourself for easy modo, unless you're playing on the hardest difficulty you don't even need Freikugel.

I'm not that late in the game anon. Maybe late game is easier or when you fuse daisoujou.

>Nah, if you're not steamrolling random encounters you haven't learned how to play.

If you're playing on hard mode and get back attacked chances are you're going to die.

>And yeah, can can totally prepare for every possible enemy encounter because 90% of the demons you meet are fodder.

Don't really see how. Most enemies are random and you're bound to have at least one weakness unless you fuse demons that don't but figuring that out on a blind playthrough it hard.

>This really doesn't happen, even if you push the old Mot meme.

Back attacks and crits on hard mode. Hard mode is RNG central.

>>389663773
That battle was only hard if you turned into a dragoon. That causes her to flip out and start getting 3x as many turns.

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>>389665327
I mean I'll be honest, I'm not really looking at all. When I go to look for RPGs I'm looking more for Role-playing, Story, Worldbuilding, etc... It's always a bonus if the combat is good.
It's worth noting that FF's combat systems have actually changed quite frequently throughout it's history, and I hate Dragon Quest for more reasons than the dull combat.

>>389666051
>It's worth noting that FF's combat systems have actually changed quite frequently throughout it's history
I always read this comment and really don't understand.
The only FF that actually changed the combat system and core rules a bit are FFII, VIII and XIII, which are coincidentially the most reviled, everything else works on the same exact, stale basic ruleset with the only difference being whether you can change a character's premade class template in another premade class template, that or you have a generic ability slot system.
How does that counts as change when 90% of the battle system is exactly the same is beyond me, it the same shit as Dragon Quest but somehow it doesn't get the flak DQ gets.

>>389661515
I was pretty surprised when XCOM did as well as it did. Turn based is mostly dead though.

>>389661515

>turn based combat
>FF7

Other than for shit like Civ and Hearthstone, it kinda is. There's zero reason for any RPG or purely single player game to have a proper turn based system.

>>389666653
kys 17 year old

>>389666653
>There's zero reason for any RPG or purely single player game to have a proper turn based system.
>RPG
>No dicerolls
>Player active skills
Your action-adventure games with routes aren't RPGs.

>>389661515
>FFVII
>turn-based

top kek

>>389666653
RPG genre is dead.

>>389661515
Born 1989. It's fucking shit. I grew up playing those games and I can't fucking stand them now. They are just following the same formulaic shit without improving on it and never have any kind of mechanical or strategic depth above just being a Final Fantasy clone. The retards that love this shit unconditionally are the same ones that bought dogshit like SMT IV and think that was a good game, or that Deus Ex HR was a good "stealth" game.

>>389661515
I think the remake needs to keep the turn based combat, 90 second long summoning animations, and three minute long supernova attack.

>>389661515
j"rpg" turn based has always been brainless noob shit

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>>389666507
X-XV all play fairly differently, despite XV being the only one that isn't strictly speaking a turn-based variant.
XII, XIII, and XV get flak for their battle systems being unengaging, and that's alright, but at least it's something different. DQ is the Doctor Who of /v/idya. It never changes, and despite taking very little effort to develop gameplay and graphically, the production team absolutely refuses to write an engaging plot with half-decent characters. That's my beef with DQ, personally. I'd replay XV a thousand times over before touching another DQ. I played III a long time ago and it was great, and then I tried to play a half-dozen other entries and realized I was playing the same exact thing except on a few occasions involving a DS where it was the same thing except with eye cancer-inducing graphics.

I don't mind DQ existing, it just isn't my jam. I'd rather a developer try and fail to make something new than to be content with repetition and mediocrity.

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Ideally, in turn based games every action matters and fights are designed with that in mind.

Too bad the gameplay in these games is mostly garbage because it's hard to balance around games where you can grind.

MGQ was actually enjoyable gameplay wise because it was balanced around the exact statistics and skills of a single character, even if most of the battles were gimmicky.

Action games are easier to make design wise, you 'just' need to add a number of attacks with different speeds, hitboxes and damage. The player is expected to react in real time, getting hit by a strong attack is just their fault.

>>389661515
Reminder that the PS4 version of FF7 has a button on the controller that refills your HP and MP at any time and another button that disables encounters

also no option to turn them off

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>>389661515
that's what you snob weeb fucks get for shiting on turn based with real time phase

>>389661515
the best part is when I invite those same people to play a fighting game, the epitome of REAL TIME COMBAT, they decline saying "nah bro fighting games are trash".

>>389668926
Same with Bravely Default. I mean not that any of these games would be hard, but this is just a testament to how lazy game designers are.

>>389668926
http://archive.is/rlJUF
absolutely vile

>SE will never go back to smaller scale battle systems like ATB or XII's real time combat

damn shame

>>389669384
ATB was trash that defeated its own point and XII is a poor man's single player MMO with autobattle.

>>389669312
I wouldn't give people too much shit for the speed up one. Remember in the original seven there was no skipping shit and certain summons take forever. But fucking god mode??

I enjoy FFXIV's battle system despite it being standard hotbar mmo stuff

>>389663773
I can agree to this
Timing button presses should have become as common as selecting your move from a menu as an aspect of turn based battles.

>>389661515
Turn Based RPGs fail immediately as soon as you introduce concepts like leveling up. As soon as you do so, any fight is either a cakewalk or the enemy trounces you, rarely are you ever offered a real challenge that requires you to use all of the items and skills at your disposal (because after all, you're likely going to be going up against several dozen random encounters before you get to an established boss fight, which you are expected to reach at full health with an ample amount of resources).

I played more than enough turn based games in the 80s and 90s when I was a kid. Especially enjoyed the whole Might and Magic series. There's no reason to make an RPG turned based. It's lazy and dull. Even the simplest real time action game has more challenge and requires more thought than nearly any turn based game (unless said action game is also an RPG which will also devolve into you overpowering everything quickly).

Turn based strategy? Sure, I'm in. I'll play Advance Wars. There's no leveling up or other stupid RPG systems, statistics are fixed - you get what you get and you make the most of it. The missions are designed around winning with and against a specific force. That's good turn based. Not RPGs. Fuck turn based RPGs.

>>389669838
If only there was a mod that removed luck in aw completely. Playing against nell or getting fucked over as sonja is not fun.

>>389668340
There is no grinding in normal RPGs. That's a common myth. Grinding only exists in MMORPGs.

In most games you only need to grind for 10 minutes in every area. Going from Lv 98 to Lv 99 while grinding the boss with the most exp in a normal RPGs takes less time than grinding from Lv 15 to Lv 16 in a fucking MMORPG.

>>389669794
>Wanting QTE cancer even in turn based RPGs
No, the only games that did real time inputs well without jeopardizing the RPG part of the game was Unlimited SaGa, and to an extent Shadow Hearts.
>>389669838
>Muh stats
Fuck off brainlet, people have been making low level speedruns since ages.

>>389665160
Child of Light did ATB really well though

>>389669838

....Ruin...has come to our family....

You remeber our verable house: opulent and imperial...

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>>389661615
>Atlus has been paving the way with games that copy pasted gameplay from their decade old predecessors

>>389661515
I wouldn't even say it's necessarily 90s kids. I think it's just shills (Reddit/SA/whatever) trying to astroturf here.

>>389661843
>Underage till <date>

I pity whichever your country Is if its government can't trust its police force to do basic math.

>>389670025
That wasn't my point at all.

My point is that the strength of turn based games is that every action matters, therefore there is much more control in the hands of the developer compared to action rpgs where you can just slap some attacks on an enemy and it's up to the player to dodge them.

This single advantage is removed by the fact that the developer doesn't know exactly the statistics and skills possessed by the player when the fight occours.

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>>389663773

>>389670982
>This single advantage is removed by the fact that the developer doesn't know exactly the statistics and skills possessed by the player when the fight occours.
Except they can, there's lots of games with fixed growth, doesn't make them any harder than those that have normal growth.
If you're bitching so much about stats though you can still try low level runs, RPGs, like most other genres, can be adjusted to whatever challenge you want.

>>389670982
They do it on purpose so even children can finish the game. You wouldn't believe how often I died in my first play through of FF9 when I was like 8. I also ignored a shit ton of sidequests, dialogue, mechanics, everything. I didn't even keep track which monster gave what amount of exp. If I was too weak too finish a boss I grinded until I could finish him.

Developers never expect you to spend 2 fucking hours in an area and then complain that the game was too easy. It's your own fault if you grind too much.

I don't mind Turn based combat. What I mind is the game screeching to a halt because of overly long animations, HP sponge enemies, unavoidable random encounters, and the underlying systems being either idiotically trivial or needlessly complicated. Any fucking hack can make a JRPG but making a good one that balances all aspects above is fucking rare, never mind finding one with an enjoyable storyline.

>>389661515
as soon as final fantasy stopped using turn based, it went to shit.

>>389673408
What would you call a good JRPG then?
>>389673862
So after III?
I can agree with that.

>>389661615
>Recently Atlus has been paving the way to faster and more fun turn based combat
You would have a point if it wasn't for the "recently" part. Modern SMT didn't start with IV. And there more valid examples besides Atlus RPG's.

>>389661515
As I played every fucking Final Fantasy back in the day, I wished one day I'd be able to play a non-turn-based version.
It turned out to suck, but not due to the real time gameplay. The past was kinda shitty and you know it.

>>389673862
But X brought it back, and it has arguably one of the best and most tacticool combat systems of the main series. Tood bad it lacked on many other things, though.

>>389661515
>Comparing Chess to American football
WEW

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>>389661515
>tfw you realize people born in year 2000 are 17 years old

>>389661515
>turn based combat is a relic of the past

This idea is no longer relevant, we have a fucking turn based Ubisoft Mario now.

>>389674769
What???? But I meant it in a good way. A good, a good! P-please don't report me to your feminist overlords

>>389670026
And some people have done Terraria without jumping. That doesn't mean shit about the base game and what the average player does with it.

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>>389674769

>>389674769
I'm offensive and I find this Jewish as fuck.

>>389674973
>And some people have done Terraria without jumping.
What does that have to do with low level speedruns?
>That doesn't mean shit about the base game and what the average player does with it.
You do realize this statement can be applied to any game ever made, do you?

>>389674769
>muh Jews
Please you own like 90% of the world what the hell you want 100%?

>>389661515

They're right though, combat should be action oriented like in Parasite Eve.

>>389675135
>What does that have to do with low level speedruns?
Gimping yourself and establishing tougher rules than the game encourages you to play under. Everyone grinds in RPGs, just as everyone jumps in Terraria.
>You do realize this statement can be applied to any game ever made, do you?
You get the point then. Low level speedruns mean jackshit. The very existence of levels means the game can be cheesed.

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>>389674656

>>389669292
That's not necessarily an "easy mode", though. It just reduces the annoyance of repetitive random encounters. You're still giving up all the EXP and JP you'd get from grinding those battles, which would make the boss fight even harder than it normally would be.

>>389663773
The reason Lenus was hard for most people isn't because SHE is hard, it's because people didn't spend enough time preparing. You never really need to level in LoD but one or two outside the obligatory boss battles does help, as well as having up to date equipment. The biggest issue though is most new players don't spend any time leveling their additions up, so they don't have solid ways to deal out damage and build up SP. Last time I played through LoD, I didn't once turn into a Dragoon outside when the game forced it, because honestly it doesn't make the game easier, it actually hurts you because you cannot defend, cannot use items and are stuck with your one elemental magic and Low MP pool.
As for better turn based combat, LoD is one of my all time faves, but there are better systems out there. Legend of Legaia is a little more interactive.

>>389674656
>Hitler died 72 years ago

or did he?

>>389674946
Ok, ok, I'll let it pass this time. But promise me you'll buy my game again

>>389675334
>Gimping yourself and establishing tougher rules than the game encourages you to play under
One thing is ignoring mechanics, another is limiting their use.
>Everyone grinds in RPGs
No? Only scrubs grind in RPGs, many RPGs don't have grind altogether either.
>The very existence of levels means the game can be cheesed.
And? I miss the point of this statement, any game can be cheesed, what does that have to do with RPGs in particular?

>>389675334
>Everyone grinds in RPGs

Not really. We used to when we didn't know better. I've been playing some SNES-PS1 era JRPG's lately and didn't need to grind a bit.

>>389674039
Depends on the mood, but I still hold Chrono Trigger to a gold standard. The systems have just the right amount of complexity while still making it easy to jump in. Paper Mario TTYD and FFV are also favorites.

>>389661882
Don't be stupid, this was my exact reaction to Super Mario RPG when my friend showed it to me in the fucking 90s. I didn't understand why Mario didn't just jump on the enemies. If you've never been exposed to the genre before, it doesn't make sense.

>>389675334
The only JRPGs that require some grinding are either Dragon Quest games or NES games.

>>389675701
>>389675882
>I don't grind, that means no one grinds
Some games can give you a bad time regardless of level, but most (like DQ) are often reduced to mashing A.

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As much as i prefer turn based i have to admit the system was born of limitations, as a place holder. Don't you remember playing these back in the days and picturing in your head the actions taking place in real time ?

>>389661515
Turn based combat you see in most JRPGs is shit .

>>389676057
>>389675882
>Turn Based RPGs fail immediately as soon as you introduce concepts like leveling up. As soon as you do so, any fight is either a cakewalk or the enemy trounces you
That's the point. The game is either a constant statcheck or too easy to bother learning all the fancy options, unless you decide to do a low level speedrun, which really isn't the rule at all.

>>389675334
Why do you faggots hate grinding so much? I find it relaxing and fun. You see your characters grow. You grow attached to them. You kick ass. You get closer to your dream of becoming the strongest in the world.

Grinding is the work.
Defeating bosses and advancing in the story and unlocking "new freedom" is the reward.

No reward without work but you NEETs aren't used do that. Even in fucking strategy games you have to grind resources before you can build buildings.

>>389676086
see >>389676057

Dragon Quest is grindy by default, but that doesn't mean the majority of JRPG's that came after are like that. You can manage in most games like FF, SMT, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, etc etc etc, if you cast the right spells and learn how to distribute damage to maximize efficency. Git gud.

>>389675986
>The systems have just the right amount of complexity
I can't really take you seriously here Anon, I respect your tastes, but CT is bottom of the barrel gameplay for me.
>>389676086
>>I don't grind, that means no one grinds
Only people who can't understand how to play RPGs need to grind, that or you're playing DQ or Wizardry I era stuff.
>but most (like DQ) are often reduced to mashing A.
I don't deny what you're saying, but the same is true for WRPG, and any genre really.
Games with actually sensible design are really only a handful for any and all genres, it's not a prerogative of RPGs, japanese or western.

You can't condemn an entire genre because the majority is easy, casual shit, all genres are like that.
>>389676193
>i have to admit the system was born of limitations, as a place holder.
Nice meme, except the first JRPGs were action based games like Xanadu.

>>389676271
>the game is boring because I chose to play the most boring way possible
Wow

>>389676470
Having your effort/reward mechanism fucked up since childhood is more of a normie thing.

>>389661615
>>389662040
FFX-2 on 200% speed anon. That's how its done right

>>389676470
I don't hate it. It simply means at some point I can't fuck up, because the mobs deal 1hp per attack.
>>389676491
Again, it's not that it's too hard. Hard is good.
>>389676640
I don't do that, but most people do because it's easy. I'm saying the game should encourage you to use those things and punish mindless grinding. Do keep using le meme arrows, faggot.

>>389676491
>You can manage in most games like FF, SMT, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, etc etc etc, if you cast the right spells and learn how to distribute damage to maximize efficency. Git gud.
This. JRPGs are essentially optimization puzzles. If you grind, you're shit.

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honestly I don't have the patience for rpg games. I never finished one In my life. Too boring, slow, and tedious. The good stories and interesting worlds did help to easen up the flaws.
Honestly, Turn based combat seems kid of pointless. Why wait to attack your opponent, and also wait for them to attack? why must enemy encounters and boss fights last an eternity?

the only fun rpgs are ones where you can interact, like paper mario or mario rpg or south park. let me fucking interact or else it's just mindless and not hard, it's just numbers no different from an mmo

>>389676947
>I can get by without using cheap mechanic
>therefore you're shit, and the game isn't flawed

>>389677245
>chess is so easy, you just move the pieces until you beat the king
Everything can be trivialized. Obviously the difficulty in turn based combat is different from the one found in real time combat, but that doesnt mean that one or the other has to be easier.

>>389661515
Turn-based is fun but not when it's reliant on terrible menus though.

>>389676947
>This. JRPGs are essentially optimization puzzles.
RPGs are, at their core, all about risk management and optimization or adaptation of your workforce to a variety of situations.
>>389677308
Grinding is literally put in there for people who are shit at the game, it's the universal konami code for RPGs.
I can grind red orbs in DMC too because I suck at dodging and I need more health, doesn't mean the game is flawed because it allows me to do so.

>>389676491
This. Just try to grind as little as possible.

Then it becomes almost a survival game where you have to go by with as little money, stats and items as possible and carefully plan your actions

>>389675548
You're right but Lenus is still definitely a difficulty spike compared to everything before her. Legend of Dragoon's element system is retarded and using a magic attack of the opposite element of the enemy doubles damage. Lenus is the first boss that really spams magic attacks and not only that but it's water magic which Dart is weak to and you can't remove Dart from your party so he's forced to take a fuck-ton of damage.

>>389676617
>xanadu
Just looked it up. Shit you're old, die already.

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>>389677851
Fucking kids these days...

Shit opinion but I liked FF13's battle system, especially gestalt

>>389665160
This 100 percent. Remake the atb FFs with 10's system and they'll be even better

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Objectively the best turn based battle system in modern JRPGs

>>389661515
I was born in 89 and I think turn-based combat is shit. I never liked FFVII and I thought it was inferior to PC and arcade games.
Going from playing Virtua Fighter 3 and MDK, both games that gave you tons of control, FFVII felt extremely shallow and unrewarding.

>>389663773
It was mediocre even back then. Compared to modern games it's just bad.

>>389674852
Ubisoft Mario is also way more complex and well thought out than any FF or DQ game. It's fucking pathetic that the biggest names in turn-based combat got beat by some crying Italian man who wrote a RabbidsxMario fanfic.

>>389678216
Magic was better in earlier games though, if I have a beef with Scarlet's system is that, magic just isn't as fun as previous SaGa games, but it's because the combat system is too different and admittedly it wouldn't work as good as it does if you incorporated previous magic mechanics, or rather, it wouldn't work at all, old SaGa magic would probably destroy all the balance.

Now, if they did fuse Scarlet's main premise and balance with Unlimited's magic system and map mechanics...

>taking your time to carefully plan out your next move
vs
>being forced to react to shit as it happens with no preparation

One is better for action and FPS games, one is better for strategy and RPG games.

>>389667035
ATB is pretty much turn-based with the added bonus of having to wait for the game to load up your turn if you're too fast picking moves.

ITT: people who don't see the difference between turn-based combat, speed-based combat, and ATB.

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>>389661515

I was born in the 80's so I guess you're wrong OP.

>>389661615
>Persona 5 faster
>combat is still slower than fucking Wizardry 1

Wew. JRPGs have a way to go.

>>389663980
i've been replaying ff6 and ff7, and while i love those games to death, the combat feels slow and unresponsive a lot of the time. the thing that persona 5 does right is bind attacks, items, etc etc. to the face buttons so time spent executing whatever moves you want is fast. the moves themselves are also pretty fast, and look really rad, too.
smt IV does this to a lesser extent. in general, it just feels more fast and fluid than older RPGS. that's just talking about move of atlus' menus though
dunno about the "more fun" part, i don't hate slower paced battle systems

>>389678605
This a thousand times.

>>389678883
W8 is slower than W1 too :^)

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>>389678605

This would be great if there was any JRPG that actually required any careful planning. A good number of them come down to just spamming your offensive moves and then healing. It's simple and quick.

>>389678680

it's a meld of action and turn based. It's the actual middle ground, not like the action games with RPG elements claim to be.

Turn based isn't outdated, it's just not popular. there is a difference.

and popularity is just name recognition these days. Everyone says turn-based is outdated, then Pokemon breaks records with every release they make.

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>>389674483

>>389661515
It can be good, but in most games it's complete and utter garbage, which indeed is a relic of the past, when games couldn't pull off real-time combat.

>>389679319
W8 you're also managing 8 characters during battles.
Fights are still faster than P5's shit, especially boss battles.

The best part is that these same people usually really love pokemon.

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>>389661515
>turn based combat discussion
>it's about jrpgs every time

Friendly reminder that JRPG is dead while ARPG continues to survive.

>>389679382
Play SaGa games then.
The last game basically doesn't have healing altogether if that might interest you, they're quite a bit different from other JRPGs though, or most RPGs really.
>>389679875
Said nobody ever.

>>389679464
>it's a meld of action and turn based. It's the actual middle ground

It's far from a middle ground. There is none of the qualities that make an action game in ATB.

>not like the action games with RPG elements claim to be.
ARPGs don't claim to be a middle ground for turnbased and action. They claim to be RPGs that play like an action game.

>>389668340
>it's hard to balance around games where you can grind.
Why bother balancing for it? If someone gets brick-walled by a boss and decides they'd rather grind their balls off for an hour so they can brute force it rather than figure out the mechanics, why not let them? The ability to grind xp or ignore encounters entirely is basically an inbuilt difficulty slider.

Important to note a number of actual devs from the time frame that turn based was big have said it was big mainly due to not being able to make fancy combat systems at the time to compliment their game

Born in 2000 here and I like turn based combat in RPG's but that's cause I'm a lazy fuck and I can do other shit while playing

>>389661843
I'm 24 and don't have an ID.

Homm3 would've been even better in real time.
There, i said it.

>>389666653
>there is zero reason for any game to have different kinds of gameplay to enjoy
>every game needs to play the way I approve of it

divinity original sin is proof that turnbased rpgs are for scholarly patricians, anything non turnbased is for spazzed out angry screaming american children

>>389663773

why haven't they made a sequel yet?

>>389681015
Because the game was mediocre and bombed.

>>389661515
real time is pretty much always better than turn based.
I've always thought this.

Turn based can be good though if they use it to add lots of crazy mechanics. They almost NEVER do though.

>>389661515
Sideview JRPG style combat is shit and pointlessly basic though. Tactical turn based combat like Tactics Ogre and Divinity OS are great though.

>>389679821
I want to play fallout. Is it okay to start with fallout 2 ?

I don't mind turn based combat in JRPG's, I mind that pretty much all of them are linear corridor heavy games with a set story and no actual roleplaying.

Sure they have a world map, but every location inside those world maps are still usually just a few corridors leading to your goal and the occasional chest containing a potion.

>>389681370
That's not Fallout, but sure. Though there's no reason not to play Fallout 1 first since it's pretty much the same game as 2 with a bit less content but a way better story.

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>>389681248
>Sideview JRPG style combat is shit and pointlessly basic though.
No.
>>389681421
>I mind that pretty much all of them are linear corridor heavy games with a set story and no actual roleplaying.
All JRPGs aren't just FF and DQ clones, thank goodness for that.

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It cracks me up when people talk like turn based RPGs require some type of high level thinking or strategy

>>389665008
Remove yourself

>>389681729
>All JRPGs aren't just FF and DQ clones, thank goodness for that.
People say that but I still find myself never being able to explore shit or create my own character and all that good shit that makes me want to play RPG's in the first place.

Throw some recommendations my way.

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>>389681815
>you only choose attack in JRPGs, everything else is useless

congrats you must be one of the 500 people on this planet who died to the first boss in FF6

Do 2D WRPGs even exist?

I want to be able to customize my race and skills, but play it from a top-down perspective like in JRPGs. that would be cool.

>>389681815
>first people say that you don't need anything but simple attack in JRPGs
>then people say that JRPGs make you gring
/v/ never disappoints.

>>389681934
>I still find myself never being able to explore shit or create my own character and all that good shit that makes me want to play RPG's in the first place.

A lot of DQ let you create our own character, some old RPGs like Dark Law do too, so does the Metal Max series with games like MM2, which has a great DS remake, Lunatic Dawn series allows character creation and has more western gameplay focused on roleplaying, character choices influencing the various scenarios you're in etc, SaGa gives you various main characters with their own scenarios that you can customize however you want due to the game's system, the DS remakes of SaGa 2 and 3 also allow you to customize your characters fully and even change their races, in the case of 3 you can also dynamically change their races as a basic part of the game's mechanics, Zill O'll also allows you to create your character and according to how you create it you start in completely different parts of the world with a completely different cast, main character background, stats and even endings, Frontier Gate also has character creation and a very expanded character customization system.

There's a lot of games that play like actual RPGs, but you have to try them yourself because they're all very different in scope and mechanics.

>>389682326
>Do 2D WRPGs even exist?

Oh come on.

>Posts a JRPG as an example of good turn-based combat

>>389682326
Yes, you complete child. jrp's only exist in the first place because they were clones of computer rpg's from the early 1980s. Basically every jrpg out there is a derivative of Ultima and Wizardry, but built for console players.

>>389682326
Fallout, Wasteland, Darklands, Diablo, Ultima, Arcanum, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Divine Divinity, Planescape comes to mind.

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>>389681815
>angeldemon
Every time.

>>389682772
>Basically every jrpg out there is a derivative of Ultima and Wizardry, but built for console players.
It really isn't, but whatever you say.

>>389676617
>Nice meme, except the first JRPGs were action based games like Xanadu.

Unsure if this is what the other anon meant, but turn based games have their origin in pen and paper RPGs, which do use a turn system due to technical limitations.

>>389676470
>Why do you faggots hate grinding so much? I find it relaxing and fun.

Bully for you, most people don't want to spend their time doing the same repetitive task for hours on end.

Personally I'd much rather engage in a more varied set of activities, that are more enjoyable on a moment to moment basis. To each their own.

>>389682581
Nice thanks, I'll start checking them out. Mind you most of these are more open and allow for a lot of exploration and have maps that aren't just corridors or small villages?

Freedom of movement is pretty important for me in RPGs. I like that feeling of being able to just run off in a completely different direction and I will still find new exciting content to experience.

>>389661515
yeah... maybe if the games didn't give you infinite amount of time to make the shallow decision of
>do i hit/nuke them
>or do i heal??
if only these dumb japs would learn from Worms. and for god's sake DROP THE GOD DAMN "LEVEL UP" MECHANIC.

>>389661515
active turn based maybe

>>389682157
>congrats you must be one of the 500 people on this planet who died to the first boss in FF6

I'm guessing that's not his OC, anon.

Meanwhile, in the superior action RPG Dark Souls...
>shields
>dozens of weapons (zweihander, spears)
>magic
>heavy armour
>various rings
>STR builds
All trivialize the game. I'm sure there's much more too. And in games like BG2, there's a billion ways to break the game.

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>>389683168
this
active turn based sucks. I can't really appreciate the combat in FF games because of this.

I was always a big SMT boy.
Or anything with a proper turn-based combat system. Currently playing Lunar Silver Star Story Complete on my ps1 actually.

>>389669384
>what is my name is setsuna and lost sphere

>>389682849
>pen and paper RPGs, which do use a turn system due to technical limitations
I don't think that is entirely accurate. You could probably design rules that let people playing table-top all take their turns at once with no turn order, it would just be a different experience. There are advantages that taking turns offers that keep it from being just a "place holder".

>>389683082
>DROP THE GOD DAMN "LEVEL UP" MECHANIC.

This.
It makes sense in a pen and paper RPG where your imagination gives you incredible latitude to explore, and where gating some content behind a progression mechanic makes sense. You shouldn't be able to walk into Tiamat's lair and punch it in the balls while it sleeps.

When it comes to the generally very finite worlds and linear, if branching, stories of CRPGs you don't need to gate your content behind a progression mechanic like levelling up, you can just gate it behind the content it succeeds.

Hopefully one day we'll treat levelling as the unnecessary vestige of a bygone era, the same way we think about the points and high scores that were a holdover from the days of arcade machines needing a hook to keep people coming back to insert yet another quarter.

>>389682841
Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest most certainly are, self-admittedly by the creators. This has been documented quite clearly, and it isn't that difficult to see the similarities. FF and DQ are the most popular/important jrpg series, and therefore others are derivative. Common practices that you can find in most jrpgs exist in Ultima and Wizardry, albeit more simple.

>>389683081
>Mind you most of these are more open and allow for a lot of exploration and have maps that aren't just corridors or small villages?
All of them but DQ but DQ are "open world" RPGs in a way or another, not in the actual open world as in seamless travelling, that simply means that you're not bottlenecked by the main plot and you're free to go wherever you want as long as you don't die.
The best examples in that list are Metal Max games, SaGa games, Lunatic Dawn and Zill O'll, but there are many other series with that kind of approach or focus on non linearitu, like Growlanser.
>maps that aren't just corridors or small villages?
Most of those except some Lunatic Dawn games are console games, so do not expect the range of PC games like TES or Fallout.
The maps are indeed good and Metal Max especially has great worldbuilding if ou like to explore stuff at your own pace, I really suggest you to check out Metal Max Returns since it has a translation patch, or Metal Saga for the PS2, you can emulate it on a potato so you shouldn't have problems with it, the other games are even better but you need to know runes to play them.
>I like that feeling of being able to just run off in a completely different direction and I will still find new exciting content to experience.
All those games will give you that experience, mind you that some games in that list, like Lunatic Dawn Odyssey or Unlimited SaGa are more oldschool in that sense, so while you do have freedom of movement the games take a more symbolic approach to gameplay, Unlimited SaGa is basically a tabletop simulator in that sense, they're very good at what they do, but they're not for everyone.
>>389683695
>FF and DQ are the most popular/important jrpg series, and therefore others are derivative.
That's such an idiotic reasoning I don't know whether I should keep replying to you.

>>389683510
>You could probably design rules that let people playing table-top all take their turns at once with no turn order, it would just be a different experience.

It would be the book-keeping apocalypse.

>>389682581
>Metal Max
>Only one game is translated and it isn't 2 or the DS remake

>>389661515
I generally prefer them, because I prefer having multiple characters in some way or another. And when I have multiple characters I want to control all of them, even if that means that I can't have action-combat.

Also each action has far more weight in turn-based games.

>>389683082
>>389683665

Name 4 good RPGs that don't have leveling mechanics. Hell, can you even call them RPGs if they don't have stat progression?

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>>389683810
Feels bad, I know.
But that's one of the series that really motivated me to learn runes, it was very worth it.

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>>389683790
Neat. Thanks.

>>389683296
>shields
wow...incredible
>dozens of weapons (zweihander, spears)
mostly different damage numbers and the playstyle from a sword ain't too different from an axe, mace and even a fucking spear where it all ends at dodge attack or block and attack
>magic
>throw different colored textures at enemies while standing still
>heavy armour
implying turn based games don't have cosmetics which vary in stats
>various rings
implying turn based games don't have accessories
>STR builds
implying turn based game won't let you go different paths in your build that aren't
>lmao your weapons now scale with dex
or
>lmao your weapons now scale with strength

>>389683936
Most JRPG's aren't RPG's so it doesn't really matter if you remove them or not.

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>>389683936

Zelda
Metal Gear Solid
Ninja Gaiden
Sim City

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>>389683948
If you like tabletop games I really recommend you to try Unlimited: Saga, it's definitely an acquired taste since it works unlike any RPG ever made, but it's a one of a kind experience in the whole medium, way ahead of its time too for pretty much everything really.

>>389683790
Don't keep replying then. Deny it forever.

>>389683665
What's your alternative in games like Fallout where skill points are essential? Remember, these kind of games try to avoid having characters that can do everything.

>>389683936
Zelda Ocarina of Time
Zelda Breath of the Wild
Zelda Link to the Past
and any decent TTRPG with a GM that chooses to use static levels.

>>389669715
Why wouldn't you it's great but it's also not turn based so wtf dude

>>389684198
They aren't rpgs

>>389684198
Every time you beat a boss in Metal Gear Solid, your health bar levels up.

>>389684084
Did you even read my post?

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>>389684448

>implying you don't roleplay as Link, Snake, Hanzo, and God

>>389674201
He's saying IV feels faster than Nocturne

>>389684663
Oh boy, here we go.

>>389684472
>I don't understand what "level up mechanic" means, and i intentionally conflate it with regularly doled out items or stat increases
>Zelda heart containers? Why, that's the exact same thing as grinding random enemies to get +10 STR

>>389683936
That's the problem, virtually all videogames, anything with a plot and characters, could be argued to a constitute an RPG, by the classical definition.

>Role-playing games are games in which players assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create stories. Players determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

>from the Encyclopædia Britannica

What we have codified as an "RPG" today, is actually a CRPG with a game of increasing arbitrary numbers on top of it. The defining features of the genre are that the underlying mechanics are shown to the player; Street Fighter also has numbers for damage, hit points, attack priority, etc, but it plays out in real-time, and doesn't throw numbers on screen to remind you that it's doing calculations under the hood, or rely on elements of RNG to introduce the unpredictability that makes the game exciting.

>>389684867
You're responding seriously to an intentionally silly post in response to a trolling list of games that aren't RPGs at all.

>>389681015
Cause it was a shit game even for it's time.

>>389684867
>actually trying to argue
There's no winning this. He'll bring up CoD, RO2, etc where there's normal leveling.

>>389661515
What has always bugged me about the earlier FFs is that you have to guess when an enemy gets his next turn. That's why FFX's combat is probably the best in the series. Well that and the generally higher combat speed, FFIX really dragged on at times.

Even better is Grandia's / Child of Light's "one time-bar for everyone"-combat. I'd really love to see another few games with that system.

>>389684998

Yes, and you could call Doom and Halo "Fighting Games" because you're constantly fighting in them.

Genres have definitions that go beyond the meaning of the words in their names, otherwise, as >>389684663
points out, every single game ever made is an RPG, which would make the classifications useless.

>>389684663
You do, but that element is not the focus of the game, and exists as small part of a larger focus. The larger focus determines the genre of game, hence - not role playing games.

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>>389685081
That's what you think

>>389670323
>the police are the only people who will need to see your ID
You've ousted yourself, kid.
>>389680731
Are you proud of yourself?

Now we just need the autists who claim anything that doesn't perfectly simulate tabletop roleplaying isn't an RPG.

>>389685309
While FFX is a shitty game, I did really like the "switch character" focus they had going. Felt a bit like what XIII's tried to do but it was actually enjoyable.
Shame the rest of the game is just as bad as XIII.

i was born in the 1980s and i don't give a shit about turn-based
the last turn-based game i liked was maybe chrono trigger and that was more for the music and attacks than the gameplay
i remember when i went to iraq and we were in balad, and me and a nerd friend went to the rec center down south and we were deciding what game to play
i wanted to play cod4 but he was like "no, i'm not good at that" even though i said i'm not good at it either
and he suggested "heroes of might and magic v" or whatever
so we do and he goes first
i wait fucking 20 minutes
20 fucking minutes
for my turn
i rush my turn as fast as i can and wait a little bit longer before i'm like "okay fuck i can't do this anymore"

Why do games like Silent Hill 2 have more roleplaying elements than games like FF6 or 7?

>>389685698
You need to go back.

>>389685698
Epic bro. Epic.

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>>389685309
>What has always bugged me about the earlier FFs is that you have to guess when an enemy gets his next turn.
I honestly don't mind that kind of approach, it's better for more in depth planning if the game is well designed.
>I'd really love to see another few games with that system.
You mean a system focused on a turn board with in depth turn manipulation mechanics?
Haven't played Child of Light, but SaGa Scarlet Grace is probably what you're looking for since it has a basically much more in depth version of Grandia's gimmick, which is funny, because Grandia took the whole proficiency and levelling system from SaGa and made is shallower while Scarlet took Grandia's turn gimmick and made it more complex, and is an actual role playing game too.

ATB is fine.
All it ever needed was rhythm, which is why games like X-2 and LR exist

>>389685746
Lufia 2 has puzzles.

>>389685746
Because FF6 and 7 aren't RPG's. They are adventure games.

>>389685925
thanks
>>389685832
can't, balad was captured long ago after troops were withdrawn

>>389685832
>>389685925
>t. little shits that have never wanted for anything
you should have been sent in his place desu

just think, he might have gained a new appreciation for turn-based combat

>>389684216
>What's your alternative in games like Fallout where skill points are essential? Remember, these kind of games try to avoid having characters that can do everything.

I don't think the problem is actually the one you identify, because the same thing is true of pen and paper RPGs, where a degree of abstraction and RNG is involved so that player knowledge and player skill aren't used in place of character knowledge and character skill. I think that's the issue with role-playing games in general, which is the extent to which the player is willing to "forget" what they know, for the sake of playing a character.

I don't think there is a good answer for this. because any attempt at abstracting the character's knowledge and skills gets in the way of role-playing, but you must otherwise rely on the player's honesty.

I'm not opposed to a mechanic for upgrading character skills, per se, I just think that it should be more opaque than what we're presented with in most CRPGs, while giving the player some notion of how good their character is at a particular thing.

Otherwise Character classes are, even by themselves, a reasonable solution. It works well enough in Battlefield that the mechanics with which the player is presented lend themselves to a style of play, similar to playing a role, which sells the fantasy, while not being heavy handed with stats, or allowing one to become a master of all trades.

>>389661515
>tank controls are bad hurrrrrr

>>389685746
FF and the like are cinematic math problems, not role-playing games

>>389686159
He could have gotten that appreciation while in the army. His predisposition for raping underage Muslim girls are not really part of the equation, .

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>>389686384
>His predisposition for raping underage Muslim girls are not really part of the equation, .
cringe

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>>389686603
You are very welcome.

>>389685309
>FFIX really dragged on at times
IIRC, that was to cover up the shit loading times. The recent PC version supposedly lets you change the settings to skip shit like the excessively long battle intros.

>>389686182
>I'm not opposed to a mechanic for upgrading character skills, per se, I just think that it should be more opaque than what we're presented with in most CRPGs, while giving the player some notion of how good their character is at a particular thing.
SaGa games did that and except for their small fanbase they've always been labelled as too obscure, convoluted and overly complicated in the west, because casuals can't deal with a levelless layout for their RPGs where you have to micromanage growth manually and the game doesn't hold your hands on anything.
They're mechanically some of the greatest RPGs you'll find, but most people don't like them precisely because they're often opaque and do not explain stuff, at least until Minstrel Song, when the series started to have separated ingame guide sections for most mechanics.

I'm all for the good old "find out for yourself" method, but that shit doesn't fly today if you actually want to make money out of a game, people need their "transparency".

>>389686196
Not inherently. Games like Resident Evil use them well. But games like Tomb Raider... well someone sees Mario 64 and Quake and then look at Tomb Raider they'll just get confused as to why it exists.
"But it's tactical, see, platforming is like a puzzle"
>slowly, sluggishly, sheepishly, maneuvers Lara into the edge of a platform, then does a running jump. she catches a ledge and sheepishly, reluctantly, pulls herself up at a senior's pace.
"See? It's good. It's good... it's... it's good..."

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>>389686754

>>389685318
>every single game ever made is an RPG, which would make the classifications useless.

Not so, Micro Machines, for example, demonstrably involves no role-playing. Bomberman, likewise.

It's not so much that other classifications become useless if we accept almost all games as RPGs, they're still useful ways to identify what fantasy and what mechanics to expect from a particular game, but it shows RPG to be a misnomer, when what we actually mean by the title is "a game where you make arbitrary numbers go up on the screen".

>>389686220
>cinematic math problems

Consider that stolen.

>>389686384
are you from california? we had a lot of your type talking like that while protesting us up in ft lewey

>>389687246
that's not a new way to describe final fantasy at all, anon. read any of tim rogers' work, it's full of shit like that.

>>389687584
ignore him m8, just some booty bruised member of #TheResistence lashing out at you because people with lives make him realize that he lacks purpose

>>389687762
w/e
anyway i mean i like final fantasy mystic quest, it's simple and unpretentious, but normally i just don't like turn-based, i play fighting games, platformers and shmups normally

>>389683296
you can grind in ds too.
And dont compare some weapons or weapons type with grinding. Its different things.

>>389686159
>guy in the army
>never waited for anything

You serious m8. Military is almost completely working and waiting

People who say that turn-based combat is outdated, a relic of the past, or only existed due to technical limitations are fucking retarded.
ARPGs predate turnbased RPGs.

>>389688010
you read that wrong dipshit, it was in reference to the people who were talking shit about his tale

learn 2 comprehension

is it possible to log into xbox one app on your smartphone and play a game like trials fusion through the console?

>>389688308
no

why the fuck are you asking this shit here

>>389688010
>You serious m8. Military is almost completely working and waiting
we weren't doing either of these 24/7, we had leisure time too
w/e i mean since you think we rape muslim babies i guess i cbb to talk about this stuff anymore, i'm not even in serviec anymore anyway

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>>389663773
>>389681015

>>389686989
>Bomberman, likewise
How the fuck are you not playing the role of bomberman?

>but it shows RPG to be a misnomer
No more a misnomer than Fighting game, Shooter, or Beat'um up.
These are accepted names for specific genres now. You could try to get all annoying about semantics every time they come up in conversation, but you'd be both wrong, and annoying.

>>389666653
>Other than for shit like Civ and Hearthstone, it kinda is. There's zero reason for any RPG or purely single player game to have a proper turn based system.
Are you retarded?

I prefer turn based because I like having party members but I hate ai control. I wish there were more turn based games that had the same feeling as doing combos in card games like mtg. stuff like giving yourself a bunch of turns in a row, or stacking a bunch of attack spells.

>>389683061
>Bully for you
What did he mean by this?

>>389688380
long story.

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>>389689508
>I wish there were more turn based games that had the same feeling as doing combos in card games like mtg. stuff like giving yourself a bunch of turns in a row, or stacking a bunch of attack spells.
SaGa games are like that, combos are an integral part of the gameplay too.

>>389690083
is saga frontier 2 a different series? all I remember from that game though is grinding moves on one guy only to have him die before I could use him again, and some bullshit strategy minigame.

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>>389690286
>is saga frontier 2 a different series?
Nope, same series, SaGa changes names a lot though.
>and some bullshit strategy minigame.
Ah, yes, that's usually the most infuriating part for people.
It's unique to Frontier 2 though, so don't worry.