>n64 lost to ps1 because of cartridges So then why didn't

On sale now for $140!

>>389066432
>chips and shit
wow. Engineers BTFO

>>389066550
No it wouldn't because CDs are cheap and n64 carts already have chips anyway

Reader parts are more expensive than the fucking cartridge parts.
And the memory stuff and buffer is even more expensive than those again.
Nevermind the issues of miniaturization and uneven rotation due gravity.

>>389066432
Putting a fucking disc reader in every single cartridge might've increased production costs a tad bit.

>>389066796
OK but then what if it was like a record, where the read thing was just a needle

>>389066432
>chips and shit
>disc read thing

>>389067008
Do you know how CDs work?

>>389067135
Yeah but like instead of a CD what if it was a recortd

>>389066432
They almost did, it was called 64DD.

Then Rare figured out how to do almost everything just as well on cart and they stuck with it.

>>389067250
Then you'd have almost no storage and slow read speeds.

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>>389067008
You do know how CDs work, right? Because half the reason its laser on mirror disc, is because of how small the laser is.
Grammaphone needle, even a small one, would be a few thousand times larger, and still need a movable arm, which is actually expensive part until far into the 2000s.

And it would still need a memory bank, because the N64 lacks enough internal memory to buffer, which is also the reason the 64DD was never really released: They tried to get around it, and wait out RAM price decrease, but it could never get to a reasonable level.

>>389067360
But records have like whole albums on them just like cds so it would have at least as much as a CD

>>389066432
hahahaha why is this so funny

>>389066432
A better idea might be to have the cartridge be a reader and have a slot for disks to go in

Still retarded, but within the realm of possibility

>Having a whole disc drive in every cart
I sure love $500 games

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>>389067470

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>>389067008
then have fun having games the size of your torso

>>389066721
CDs aren't going to be magically cheap if you are making a non-standard size that no one produced at the time.

holy shit op
next level retard
I'm not even gonna sage

>>389066721
>CDs are cheap
disk read thing (moves left/right) wasnt

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>>389067008
was done for video, would result in huge consoles and games.

Why didn't they just hide a whole PC in a console?

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>>389067470
>LP Record
>Originally 23 minutes per side, later increased by several minutes
>50 minutes at best, with dual layer
>CDs are 120-130 minutes single layer with possibility of changing track
Even tape would be a better medium, and those have so bad read times, there is a reason they are only used for backup storage and early computer games.

>>389067659

Well they did just that for the Gamecube bro

>>389067637
WTF I love Staryu now!

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It's almost like Nintendo planned on it, but it was a major flop.

You've basically made every game come on seperate hard drives. Expensive.
The only real viable solution would be modernised Floppy Discs.

>>389066432
>let's add whole optical drive electronics and most of the mechanical parts into every cartridge
OP is a fucking retard.

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OK since you guys didn't like my idea how about this, I know tapes are older but they can hold whole albums just like cds so they should be able to hold a game

>>389067879
Wrong console mate.
Why do you think first XBOX was so huge?

Why didnt they just put more ram and gpu in the cardridge right?

>>389068232
>only pretending
Don't force it too much.

>>389067830
But we already had Xbox.

okay okay OP is a retard

but what if they made it a super gameboy type thing where you have the cd reader in the cartridge slot and you just put actual normal discs on top of it

>>389067659
Eh, anon, you sorta do that except for the whole
>making a non-standard size that no one produced
Where you license a already existing format, that has seen production, but isn't covered by whatever patent you want to dodge.

>>389068129
Floppy discs are just sealed CDs, but even more fragile and prone to damage, to lower quality materials and prodcution values.

>n64 lost to ps1
how? they both made boatloads of cash and N64 had some of the best games ever made

>>389068232

>time to rewind my game just to get to the main menu

i'm aware c64 had tape based software but the entire program was loaded into ram, you couldn't do that on n64, the disparity between rom and ram size was massive

>>389066432
>putting a mini compact disc reader in every individual cartridge in the mid nineties

10/10 op for actually drawing this

>>389068482
Probably because the PS1 sold 102 million consoles and the N64 only sold 33 million. It really was a massacre.

>>389066432
>using optical technology
why not just use a USB stick instead?

>>389068723
Piracy protection.

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>>389066432
>This entire thread
Can't tell if troll or just stupid. You have my applause all the same.

>>389068482
PS1 had a larger library. Sonygroes always value quantity over quality anyways.

Fuck you guys I'm not a retard, it's idiots like you that holding the industry back

>>389068371
1. You are still bottlenecked by the stuff you connect the cartridge to. And unlike with SNES, because the N64 is so powerful, its actually a bigger bottleneck for RAM and specialized hardware.
2. You could put a GPU or something extra in there, like they did with SNES stuff, like some kind of audio processor to free up more of the CPU
3. The N64 came with a port to add more RAM, in hopes of RAM prices sinking enough to make a add on possible, or some third party gimmick. So did the Sega Saturn.

>>389068232
Tape games works on the idea that you start loading the game, start playing it, and then you cache the entire game to RAM.
So even with specialized planning, it could work. But you are still stuck with the same problem: You might need more RAM, or are limited to very small sets of ROM

>>389068723
USB wasn't invented, but also is open to piracy.
Cartridges are solid state memory the same as USB drives anyway, just with a custom serial bus.

>>389068770
so give it a propriety connector and put it inside the cartridge

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>>389068110
>make hardware addon to replace cartridges
>with different cartridges

>>389067652
that's a big disc

>>389068847
Why would you think putting a non-standard mini disc and optical reader into every cartrige was a good idea? Can you imagine the astronomical costs it would take to produce those?

>>389066432
how fucking autistic are you?

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>>389068232

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>this thread

Ever head of hybrid hard drives? Same principle is what OP wants - you get an expensive piece of kit that is worse than either a cd or cartidge (effectively ssd).

>>389069024
fuck you

>>389067652
>manlytears shows off his gamecube collection

>>389066432
all it takes is one drop on tile floor for the disk read head to get out of position and ruin the cartridge forever

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>>389066657

>>389068948
they were floppy discs

>>389066432
With today's manufacturing costs, it'd be way less of a problem. However, back then it'd have cost huge.

>>389067008
This is when I stopped tasting the bait.

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>>389066432
>Putting a moving laser and a microdisk in a cartridge
>That connects to another reader
>Through pins
You manage to vastly outdo Sony and their UMDs in terms of retarded formats, anonymous, I tip off my nonexistent hat to you.
You should feel proud and disgusted.

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>>389066432
The sheer retardation of this board never fails to amaze me

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GUYS HEAR ME OUT

BOOKS HOLD MUCH MORE INFORMATION THAN EITHER CDS OR TAPE

WHY DON'T WE JUST PUT A BOOK IN THERE

SONY CAN'T COMPETE WITH THAT SHIT

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>>389071248

>>389067920
That bar is from legacy of kain

>>389071248
Nintendo already was using that for the memory packs silly
Why do you think saves were measured in pages?

>>389070376
Manufacture costs of the reader head and disc clap is actually is trivial, because of the amount of complex moving parts involved. There is a reason even something like HDDs are expensive, because they are essentially multi layered cubes filled with CDs and a few more complex mechanics.

RAM, FLASH cells? Those are cheap.

>>389066432
because that would be fucking expensive as shit?

also n64 was the superior console. trust me. i owned a PS1 and my bro had an n64. i loved the n64 more.

>>389071521
>Why do you think saves were measured in pages?
They are measured on blocks anon. Which is the size of the cells, which may contain a arbitrary amount of data.

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>>389069917

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YOU GUYS
Matthew 7:7-8 reads
>“Ask and it shall be given you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you. For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened.”
Check this sleek design out.

SONY BTFO

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>>389071727
The GameCube used blocks anon, not the N64.

Troll physics thread?

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>>389072448
The birth of a meme.

>>389066432
It wasn't just the storage capacity that gave CDs the advantage, that's totally mitigated on games that don't use a ton of high quality music and voice acting anyway.

It was the price. Cartridges were expensive and developers had to pay the cost because nintendo were jews. Your design OP, takes a CD drive and crams it into every such N64 cartridge sold. That's retarded.

Here's a better idea. Make a disk add-on. Oh wait that did that. It was the N64 DD and it failed because it was too little too late. And they were also expensive because nintendium plastic shell. You're never going to beat soft plastic sheet with foil inside in economics.

>>389072516
This.

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>>389066432
they did do that.

And it failed.

>>389067008
Hey yeah, and how about using a tortilla instead of an optical disk

>>389066432

>not putting a cartridge in a disk
You're thinking too small.

What if they just used higher density flash memory from the future?

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>>389072769
Heres the backside of them.

>>389072516
>It wasn't just the storage capacity that gave CDs the advantage
It was.
So you could maybe have the 3D models, textures, and game logic take up 12-50MB of space. And then use the rest of the CD for Redbook audio(normal CD music), with full quality.
So you load your game, cache the scene, and then just use the CD as a normal audio CD, and then you do the same in the next loading screen.
Now, mind you, that most PS1 games are not that big once you account for the music taking up 90% of the cartridge.

Of course, thats also alongside some other benefits:
1. CDs are basically 1/10 or 1/15 of the price
2. Assuming you have to do some pressed to bugtest your game, it basically will take 1-2 weeks of waiting until you receive the test cart, versus just burning your CD in shop, for testing
3. Since CDs are faster to make, in bulk, with cheaper cases, storage and printing more is easier. And the game industry had already lived a few generations of hardware with "estimating print, and failing"

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>>389072769
>>389073130
And the inside of it. these were probably more expensive the the average PS1 game simply because of the Plastic used to incase these disks.

>>389073123
They did
>During the Nintendo 64's development in 1995, Nintendo reported that the then-realized maximum cartridge size was 96 megabits (12 megabytes), with a theoretical maximum at the time of 256 megabits (32 megabytes).[23]:26
> As fifth generation games became more complex in content, sound and graphics, they pushed Game Paks to the limits of their storage capacity. In practice, the few largest vintage Game Paks can hold up to 512 megabits (64 megabytes) of data,
Largest carts are almost 10 times the size of the smallest, due improvements in flash technology.

>>389066432
It wasn't because of cartridges retard. N64 games plain sucked.

>>389070238

But just they look like different cartridges. >>389072769 People at the time wanted CD's.

>>389073461
It could still only hold 64mb too which seems fucking stupid.

>>389067637
What was even the point of that scene. Why didnt the fucker just jump into the river.

>>389072769
>>389073130
>>389073461

you do know that is just a variation to the ZIP Disc right?

>>389073529
I was being facetious

>>389073727
Regardless of what kinda variation of the floppy it was Op wanted to know why they didnt try it when in reality they did try a "Cartridge CD" and it was a complete failure.

>>389071248
>word reader/pencil
>can read and write to disk (book)

FUCKING BRILLIANT

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>>389073729
You might pretend to be retarded, but the statement is still good.
Meanwhile on CD side:
>700MB is too large
>Only thing that can fill it is Redbook audio and FMVs
>End up filling multiple CDs with Redbook audio and FMVs
>Lasers already read maximum data per mm^2, so larger CDs are not possible, due hardware
>Double sided are possible, but requires modifications to laser, so it can't be done
>Its possible to make cool stuff attach to the controller ports, but no real hardware upgrades
>Saturn has a port that is intended for RAM upgrades, which could allow for Hardware upgrades

>>389074415
I'm following the joke of the thread though and suggesting that they use shit like the multiple gigabyte memory cards that are available today.

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>>389074415
Cartridges were awesome. You're plugging a whole new piece of hardware into the console with each game. There were a lot of creative uses of that back in the day.

Funnily enough, the N64 didn't really do anything with it.

>>389074117
nintendo had an ungodly fear of the CD due to piracy concerns.

turbo grafx 16, Sega CD, Jaguar CD, Neo Geo CD, Dreamcast all effectively had ZERO copy protection with the PS1 quickly being worked around with a mod chip.

pretty much the only one that even did halfway ok was the Sega Saturn but if you had the first model you could play burned games just by quickly changing out a real game for a burned one.

The biggest advantage CD had at the time was the ability to mass produce for cheap, because everybody and their mom uses discs. Discs are not a media exclusive to video games.

>>389074117
They did it on the Famicom and it was a success though.

>>389074509
Input/Output for the Memory card port is limited, so even if you attach hardware stuff, there is no speed, which limits the technical possibilities.
The electrical power is also limited, because its intended for NAND cards that barely draw power.

>>389068808

Larger and better and with more variety etc etc

>>389074935
>getting this seriously technical
>in a thread about "chips and shit"

>>389066432
That is literally the worst of both worlds. The load-time of discs but the cost of cartridges.

>>389075138
>implying chips and shit can't make the CD faster

>>389074684
>the PS1 quickly being worked around with a mod chip.
I don't know if you were around at the time, but while the first modchip came in quite quick, tackling down the whole PS1 copy protection in its entirety and time span wasn't that quick, and there were multiple revisions of various mod chips because the first ones wouldn't work with the newer copied games.
Not to mention how even just copying some games was a challenge in itself, and copy protection being included in the way the game behaved itself beyond the techniques of the copy protection itself(i.e. Spyro 3)

>>389067652
everything is better on a laser disc

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>>389074689
At the time, Tapes & LPs where the common storage media.
So there was not mass production, in the way you think.
Hence its not the way you think it works. CDs are simply cheap to make, due fewer parts and cheaper materials and less complexity.
Its like how WW2 helmet effectivity is measured in number of Helmet Stamps.

A real example would be the Gyros in the Wii. Because it hit the marked, and got mass production, knock off and similar parts suddenly got into mass production, allowing the Tech to spread to stuff like Phones and other products.
And once something has hit mass production, improved parts can be produced in the same facilities, allowing for cheap mass production.

>>389075019
If you don't want to have fun, leave /v/.
There is better places to shitpost

>>389074679
Wouldn't that make cartridges like this way more expensive than regular games because of the extra hardware they have to add in there?

I mean it would been fun to have an NES Ninja Turtles cartridge back in the day that had extra controller ports so you could play 4 player, but it would suck if you only wanted it for two player play and still had to pay $100 for the game. For things like your picture it's probably better to have a separate piece of hardware to enable 4 player play that works for a bunch of games. What other clever things were done with cartridges?

>>389074689
>because everybody and their mom uses disc
they were cheap because it's just a pressed hunk of plastic

>>389068232
Okay but hear me out, what if we take that, but read everythign off the disc, then store THAT in chips and shit. Then we just have chips and shit and the connector things. It's genius, why didn't Nintendo think of this?

>>389075294
The CD is slow because of the physical limitation of how fast you can spin the disc. The only way to read faster is to spin faster.

>>389066432
Putting an optical reader into a cartridge would have cost more than the actual rom chips of an equal capacity of the optical disk

>>389075876

>The only way to read faster is to spin faster.

That is why early ps3's had fuckhuge load times - early blu-ray drives were slow as shit and data couldn't be read fast enough. Downside of fast discs - beyond various data compression techniques - is that more speed = more noise and people don't like their consoles making noise.

>>389075764
>because of the extra hardware they have to add in there?
Anon, its just a few solder wires, not fucking exrta chips with extra cool data functions.
You insert cart, cart boots, game logic in cart says "we reserve some of the pins we normally use for data, to have extra controllers"

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>>389075876
>The CD is slow because of the physical limitation of how fast you can spin the disc. The only way to read faster is to spin faster.

Does this mean having bigger discs would make loading times faster? Because parts of the disc will spin faster the further it is from the center, you could have the entire game printed near the edge of the disc, so it reads everything really quickly.

>>389076385
Sure just attach a car engine to the center to spin it. You can even have a 'turbo' pedal. Load times get you down? Floor it!

>>389075764
Mega Drive games on J-Carts(like the one in the pic) costed exactly the same as other games on normal carts

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>>389068232
>>389069691
>>389066432


Very good, HOWEVER

>>389076385
bigger discs would mean slower load times as the laser has to travel more to read the data around the disc. compare load times for gamecube mini dvd games to ps2 full dvd games.

>>389076385

>Does this mean having bigger discs would make loading times faster?

No because while the outer edge of the disc will be faster you are still limited by how fast the reader head can move and the less distance that has to go (i.e close to the centre of the disc) the faster it read in practical terms.

Its why Sega fucked up the copy-protection for the dreamcast - they put it on the edge of the disc where people like to stick grubby fingerprints and ruin the readability of those segments.

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>>389076385
No, because its not that speed, that is the limit.
The limit is that the reader head can only read so so much data, so your CD can only go so so fast.
Which also means it spins faster towards the center, and slower towards the edge.
And thats the first issue. The other issue is changing spin. So if you read the CD, and the next data segment is elsewhere, you need to move the reader head AND change the disc spin speed.

So, if the CD is small, you get 2 advantages:
1. Disc reader doesn't need to use as much time moving
2. The spinner part doesn't need to adjust spinning as much, as when the CD is large.
Needing to wait for CD to slow down spin, is a real design issue that limits max spin speed for the inner disc.

>>389075764
Famicom games sometimes came with bonus sound hardware.
SNES games sometimes had extra CPUs, this was quite famous (but bumped up the price significantly). Virtua Racing on Genesis also did this, but that one cost about the same as a new console when it came out.
And there's the weird stuff on the Game Boys like the Camera, the rumble cartridges and the rotation.
And it's a little bit mundane, but a few games for the old systems had to have mapper hardware built in because the consoles were otherwise incapable of reading such big ROMs. It was common on NES and GB/C, and Street FIghter on Genesis did it too.

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>>389076650
>>389076838
>>389076990


Then clearly the answer is to make smaller CDs! Imagine how fast this baby would play Max Payne.

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Nintendo should have just made the N64 with a CD drive from the beginning instead of stubbornly sticking to cartridges. OC related.

>>389077381

You joke but if the data can be burned in a dense enough format and decoded format that is, in fact, theorectically possible. Naturally manufacturing is the weak link here as a microscopic defect could destry a lot of data but eh.

>>389077524
Dude I think your dog is sick.

>>389077616
???

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>>389077603

>*decoded fast enough

Note to self, continue posting drunk.

>>389067652
Maybe your torso, manlet

>>389077160
So if we still had cartridges would we be able to overcome the limitations of hardware consoles have?

Technology moves way faster nowadays so that even cutting edge consoles get beaten out by PC technology literally like months afterwards. So would consoles be able to keep up if newer games came with hardware boosts in the cartridges like extra ram or extra CPUs? Or is that unfeasible/impossible with modern technology?

>>389077698
Your dog, is sick

>>389077524
Nintendo was highly against load times during that era. They would rather make everyone work with 32mb cartridges than give then the option of a 600mb disc.

>>389077956
it's totally doable but not cost effective and video game companies want to get as much money as possible.

>>389077603
>lend a disc to your friend
>returns with a single scratch
>90% of the game no longer works

wew

>>389077698
I'm not sure how he could make that point any simpler.

>>389077956
Back then it was cheaper to produce small processors dedicated to specific tasks like the ones in the SNES, and it was also easier to make them comunicate with the console hardware.
Nowadays it's surely doable, but it'd be incredibly more expensive and harder, and time consuming.

>>389067996
Gamecube mini discs weren't proprietary bro. Just the encryption.

>>389077956

>hardware boosts in the cartridges like extra ram or extra CPUs?

Pick one of the following-

1) cost effective
2) good

That said in the PC world AMD is working on a fabric that facilitates fast communication between various hardware to essentially enable a "plug-and-play" design. It is years away from being what you describe but the foundation is currently being laid (and in use in a few products) right now.

>>389078140

Exactly why chibi-discs will never be a thing.

>>389078140
>Burn a game onto a neutron star compressed into a monosubpicofluonatomic layer that is literally one gluon stacked on another gluon
>Friend returns it covered in cheeto dust.

Fuck's sake Planck.

>>389077992
Oh you're referencing that stale old twitter/facebook meme with the deer in the pool.

>>389078165
Meh

>>389078331
kek'd

>>389078429
Don't meh me take that fucker to a vet.

>>389066432
>it would be much cheaper to put cd readers in every cartridge.

Are you retarded?

>>389077524
Their burned their budget on some sick super GPU, in a period where RAM was really expensive.
So to add a CD unit, they needed more RAM, because CDs need some kind of buffer to work. And going for that RAM would breach their budget.
So they added a IO port at the bottom, and prayed for a breaktrough in RAM prices, so it would be possible to make add on.

The breakthrough happened a few years later, long after the idea was dead.
There is also some other issues:
Because they had a 64-bit 3D pipeline, with cartridges, as they did performance tests later in the 64DD development, they found out that seek latency was a massive issue, even for something as basic as loading the menu in Dev version of Ocarina of Time.
So:
1. RAM prices
2. 3D pipeline end up exploring the cache as a gigantic limitation
3. Many early PS1 games have horrid examples of load times, like Blood Omen, because of how CD works when you don't program to avoid the issue(and it was not common knowledge how to do so)

>>389066432
>read thing
>Chips and shit
Wow, we have a high level engineer here.

>>389067692
frikkin laser beams man.

>>389078227
>>389078294

So when you say not cost effective you mean development costs? Just pass those costs onto the consumer, people are already paying close to $100 for video games now.

>>389078331
Anon its kind of disturbing but if you made something entirely out of gluons it would probably immediately get covered in quarks.

Seriously they've been trying to spot glueballs (which should probably exist and be creatable in the LHC) but theorize its proving difficult because they basically immediately get "stuck" on shit and break apart.

Your friend is innocent, I'd forgive me. if I were you.

>>389078530
She died 20 years ago when I was just a kid. Haven't had the heart to get a new dog since.

>>389079084
wow that sucks, sorry man.

no wonder she looked sick. Bury the damn thing man.

>>389071248
FUCKING MOZART!!!

This is going to be one of those classic threads anons are going to recall in a few years. Make your shitposts worthwhile

>>389078989

>So when you say not cost effective you mean development costs?

No - the R&D is a sunk cost. The problem is manufacturing within realistic tolerances.

>>389077956
You can already do that with USB ports anon.
20MB/s of IO is actually decent enough for most hardware add ons.

>>389071248
What an idiot.

How are we supposed to read the book with no light?

>>389078705
Wow, I'm learning in a shitpost thread

>>389066432
I don't know what's funnier, this concept, or the fact that people actually think you're serious (>>389071072). Either way good post OP.

>>389080957
I think the funniest thing is you thinking people in this thread actually think OP is serious.

>>389068923
USB was definitely around in 96, but it was new tech at the time.

>>389080402
Why don't consoles do it then? Just the wrong consumer climate for it? People used to buy shit like Memory Paks and Rumble Paks all the time. You'd think with amiibo shit in vogue now people would want to buy a bunch of extra stuff for their console.

>>389078705
You're ruining the narrative that it made no sense for Nintendo to make the decision they made.

You can stop now. We all know Nintendo was horrendously retarded and should've died after the NES.

The N64 lost because the PS1 was the better system.

>>389081996
People like Amiibos because they're figures. They represent something.
People don't like proprietary shit like memory cards any more. Just like how people expect their phones to use USB MTP and not whatever proprietary shit software they used to make you install to put stuff on your phone.

>>389071248
now THATS INNOVATION

File: N64_controller.jpg (198KB, 1023x983px) Image search: [Google]

198KB, 1023x983px

>>389081996
1. Amount of audio processing stopped being a bottleneck after the N64 generation. Even something like the PS2, can do 24 MIDI channels, which is more than a orchestra since it also can do hardware effects on top of that
2. Hardware space stopped being a issue with CDs. Everything after that is just inflation from being used to too much storage space
3. Large memory cards and internal HDDS removed the need for a lot of external hardware
4. External hardware, such as special controllers for racing or locomotive trains, still exist. So do special input periphals.
Bluetooth as main connector also means more audio inputs

5. Specialized hardware is getting rarer, because there is a lot of stuff in consoles that is specialized hardware. Or the CPU has gotten beefy enough to replace specialized hardware. Consoles no longer has audio processors, because they got spare cores to deal with that.

>>389082438
Had they gotten a CD drive at launch, they would have kept SQUARE and ENIX. And penetrated the Jap marked further, and gotten more shovelware in the west. And maybe one more Rockstar game.
But there is also a good chance that without good dev tools, CD development would have sucked badly.
In Hindsight, neither decision is the right one. Their decision to gamble on RAM prices was reasonable, but not great, and with little pay off.

>>389083586

>Consoles no longer has audio processors

While I doubt it is implemented in the current crop of consoles AMD has dedicated silicon in its GCN architecture since hawaii (i.e 290 and 290x released late 2013) dedicated solely to audio reproduction in the from of TrueAudio. While it has mostly been ignored in the PC space because no dev (regardless of platform) gives a fuck about audio in the current climate the few times it has been used it has produced some impressive effects (Thief for example).

File: Audio_Guide_Rtings.jpg (1MB, 1920x2271px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1920x2271px

>>389083992
One AMD core can now do ~20 MIDI channels + processing that could previously only be done on hardware.
TrueAudio is even more insane. Even if the biggest gain is that 7.1 audio is a lot more data than Stereo, so it has a cost and a real use.

>>389066432
okay but where is the graphics??

>>389077747
Is that a virgin driving that car?