At what point do rhythm games stop being dependent on skill and

Ask a piano player

>>388588080
The reason i hate this type of rhythm game is that it doesnt reward the player at all for improving. you memorized the pattern of a single song but thats about it. what i like about games like rhythm heaven is that you improve as your sense of rhythm improves so you also get a very nice scale to difficulty.
also games like project diva follow the melody not the rhythm and focus more on just giving you a fuckton of shit to press at once instead of offering a better sort of difficulty

>>388588080

At about Insane difficulties. Beyond insane difficulties. It would be safe to assume it takes over 200 attempts at a song like the one in OP's, to perfectly clear it like that. Maybe even 500. Osu! is a big offender to "elaborate QTE syndrome".

That's not to say theyre not fun to play at medium to low-insane maps. But insane-insane like OP's are where it starts to become a grind and unfun.

the line between "skill" and "muscle memory" is so fine that i dont think it even exists.

unless youre talking about something like masters level drumming syncopation exercises, rythem is just a series of eight notes interspersed with sixteenth notes. not exactly something that requires skill.

Why not just play drums?

>>388588080

can you do them with your eyes closed? then you haven't memorized them

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The only way for me to play them if they have things, sadly mirai is the only game out there that does this.

>>388588080
Reaching the skill ceiling does that. Faster, unreadable button prompts is the only way to challenge a great player who has already learned all the tricks and techniques.

Climbing that ladder can be very enjoyable though

I think there's always going to be an element of skill when it comes to cases like that in OP's webm. You could memorize those patterns all you want but being able to actually play that out would surely take some skill in moving your hands and hitting buttons at particular speeds.

>>388594862
You can't even sightread the last few seconds, you couldn't possible get this right on your first try.

>>388588080
>muscle memory and memorization
>not skill
uhh

>>388588080
I still don't know how you're expected to finish this song on extreme with a controller, I can't even finish it on F2nd where the notechart was meant for a DS3.

>>388588080
Unless you're Sheldor-tier autistic, you will never memorize entire tracks, let alone the entire game.

Muscle memory can only go so far and it still depends on your audio and visual cues.

Rhythm games never stop being about skill. It's always a test of reflex and dexterity.

>>388591424
Are you saying all these other rhythm games don't require a sense of rhythm?
>follow the melody on the rhythm
rhythm
"a strong, regular, repeated pattern of movement or sound."

melody
"a sequence of single notes that is musically satisfying."

I dunno anon, pretty sure every rhythm game follows rhythms.

>better sort of difficulty
Mad 'cause bad

>>388596737
Yes you can and yes you could.

That's one of the hardest songs in the game so by the time you can tackle it, you've seen patterns like that before in easier environments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrBSqRbkypI

>>388588080
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_h_R8OaEcU

>>388588080
>dad walks in

>>388598153
Is it really fair to have 3 separate sets of notes coming at you at different speeds?

>>388599415

tonko drumming is the dark souls of drumming

Is this the Len homolust thread?

>>388600207
no, but you could derail it

>>388591424
>you memorized the pattern of a single song but thats about it.
you're doing it wrong, you do not memorize pattern of an entire song, you memorize subpatterns (which follow rhythm of the song) and then recognize those subpaterns when they appear in different songs (again, different subpatterns follow rhythm). So if you know the song (rhythm) you can anticipate the subpatterns that will appear.

>>388591801
If you look at OPs webm, you'll see there are only actually 4-5 patterns that are repeated there, once you learn those it becomes easy (relatively, you still have to recognize what subpattern comes next - and flashing screen, giant notes, and prompts flying from every direction are not helping, but if you can focus it is quite easy).

At least that's with PD, Taiko, IA/VT, DJMax, Rock Band, Guitar Hero and few other rhythm games. I actually hate Osu! because most of the songs are quite random, there are no patterns that are common for different songs, each song is mapped differently and it makes a mess of a game. With Osu you do not need rhythm, you actually need to memorize pattern for each song independently (on harder difficulties).

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>>388600207
yes

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>>388588080
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6P_GVHNeVs
>Songs you have to multi-task
Something satisfying about that

>>388591424
>you memorized the pattern of a single song but thats about it
No, you memorized a bunch of sub-patterns that make up a single song, and you've improved your ability to read a lot of notes coming in fast. Musicfag here, I've been playing guitar and violin for 15 years, and piano for 10 years.

Playing a rhythm game when I was in my teens, I could play DDR on medium when getting into a new song. Now, I can play unfamiliar songs on

I got into Taikojiro last year and I started off doing really shit on pretty much every song that wasn't brain-dead easy, but now I can play everything just short of Oni my first go through.

I bought up being a musicfag because it's exactly the same way. I started off on violin with "songs" that just involved playing open strings without even using your left hand, and built on those skills until I could look at a piece of music like pic related and play it reasonably well my first go-around

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>>388605543
forgot pic related

>>388605543
>Now, I can play unfamiliar songs on
on expert, I had to launch my game to check what the difficulty's called these days, it's still "maniac" to me

I really fucked up that post

>>388588080
For rhythm games, you should never have to memorize note charts. Anyone's who's played rhythm games could tell you that after a point you stop really responding to the individual notes and you are really seeing the patterns formed by the notes.
Look at this image from Rock Band. After a while your brain doesn't think "oh i see a blue notes followed by a orange note followed by a blue note, etc" you see the whole red-to-orange scale you are expected to play and your fingers do the rest.
Similar to a fighting game. You don't think "ok time to do a hadouken, down, down-forward, forward" you just think "hadouken" After enough repetition, you understand patterns letting you focus on timing and precision, rather than accurate execution.
Those Vocaloid rhythm games are all retarted because of the way the notes fly at you. They are not easily recognizable and patterns are harder to recognize. It's artificial difficulty. It's better when notes come down a lane to a designated target zone
It's the reason why IIDX and SDVX are the patrician-tier rhythm games.

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>>388606586
Rip forgot the image

>>388606647
You're giving this game too much credit
all I see is PRESS ALL THE BUTTONS IN SEQUENTIAL ORDER BACK AND FORTH

>>388606681
You basically just described playing piano. Anything sounds that basic when you reduce it to its simplest form.

>>388606789
You've never played the piano.

>>388588080
How can you memorize randomized simfiles?
You ARE playing with the Random modifier, right???

>>388606586
>retarted
Opinion discarded.

No wonder you have difficulty reading Diva charts.

>>388606586
>It's the reason why IIDX and SDVX are the patrician-tier rhythm games.
The same rules apply to all rhythm games

>>388592662
too loud. space issues, expensive

I could do that too if I had the arcade controller. Is there still not anything better than do shit mini hori controller?

>>388606586
see >>388602190 and >>388597760

as you said, it's all about pattern recognition, even in those vocaloid songs you have just several patterns that follow rhythm. And yes, while vocaloid games make it harder for you to focus on next pattern (because shit's flying all over the screen) it's still possible and easy once you get the hang of it.

I actually prefer the "on-line" rhythm games (Taiko, Miku Mirai, IA/VT to some extent) over "4/5/X parallel lines" (Rock Band, IIDX, Voez, Guitar Hero) over "random shit from all directions" (most Miku games and derivates) over "whatever Osu! is doing". It's easier to focus and to see next pattern when you don't have to observe entire screen but single point.

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>>388600207

>>388607282
build your own, that's what everyone else does

>>388607045
I mean if you enjoy playing four button Pop'n with notes flying at you from all directions instead of being presented in the middle of the screen because they are the most important aspect of the gameplay, have fun.

>>388607310
Rather not, I'll pay for assemble one though

>>388607349
those games don't even have any visuals aside from a looping character animation on the sides

i'll take my fully animated PVs over your 7 button furry mashfest any day

Rhythm game ranking without unreasonable bemani fanboying.

Top tier
>SDVX
>Taiko with actual taiko drums
>GITADORA with drums
>Jubeat


High tier
>Reflec Beat
>LR2 with a keyboard
>O2Jam
>DJMAX Trilogy
>DDR
>Stepmania with a mat

Mid tier
>IIDX
>LR2 with turntable
>pop'n music
>DJMAX console games
>Project Diva games
>Groove Coaster
>DS games
>Chunithm
>maimai
>osu!

Meh tier
>Taiko with a keyboard
>Guitar Hero games
>Keyboardmania
>MUSECA
>Cytus
>Deemo

Shit tier
>osu!mania
>Catch the Beat
>Stepmania with a keyboard
>most mobile shit

>>388607349
>flying at you from all directions
You're supposed to focus on the trigger, not the note.

Do you follow the note down from the top of the screen in Guitar Hero? I'm guessing you don't. Same shit, different place on the screen.

The charts move the triggers around the screen ahead of when the note flies in, in patterns that guide your eyes naturally.

Get fucking good.

>>388607413
Well then just watch the PV instead of playing a retarted game

>>388607414
I guess Taiko on psp/vita is so shit it doesn't even get mentions

>>388599415
No, but the 2000 series is comprised almost exclusively of janky, fuck-you songs.

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>>388607414
>no Voez in mid or high tier

>>388607731
>>388607547
Took the ones I could think of from the top of my head. Somehow forgot about all the Taiko no Tatsujin games.

>>388607414
SDVX = IIDX > Jubeat >>> Reflec Beat

Though I guess I'm guilty of unreasonable bemani fanboying mostly cause I gotta justify why I've been playing the same game for 13+ years
and take konami's abuse the entire time, who clearly hates its fanbase

>>388607857
I ranked IIDX lower because I think the input device is simply not good.

Imagine building up your skill in the arcades over many years, then buying a $500 IIDX controller for your PC, just to get absolutely annihilated by O2Jam fags competing on the same rankings.

I fucking love it with rhythm games get crossover songs with Touhou. I know Taiko and Sound Voltex did crossovers, not sure for any else though.

>tfw you usually play Gitaroo Man and Parappa and you often stare down into the Void of Weeb.

I'm playing Miku too. I think I'm slipping into it.
Please help me.

>>388606848
I literally have one set up right next to me plugged into my computer, anon.

>>388608059
ok

>>388607414
>Stepmania with a keyboard
Unfortunately, this is how 99% of stepmania charts are made. I don't think I've ever downloaded ones that look like they could be played on a mat at the higher difficulties.

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>>388600207
>>388607302
an easy way to make diva more fun is to make len perform in all the girly miku songs

>>388607414
>Shit tier
>osu!mania

Why exactly? What makes it worse than IIDX?

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>>388608213

>>388608349
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViA_hkn7lNE

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I love rhythm games. They are video games reduced to the purest terms.
>press a button when we tell you
>score higher points the better you perform
Usually they are very pick up and play, too letting you have short little gaming sessions when you are pressed for time.
Playing DDR and Beatmania during high school basically molded me to only listen to electronic dance music. Have so many fucking burned eurobeat CDs from those days and I'm still only listening to trance and house and jcore like the weeb i am.

>>388588080
Because it is Autism: the Genre

>>388602228
>>388600207
So you two idiots are responsible for the influx of Len doujins during C91.

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Does anyone actually play this?

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>>388608660
>idiots
I think you mean 'heroes'

how do I set up sdvx3 on my pc? I got the hdd data but the only guide I found barely has any information and mostly dead links

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This game is more lewd than it has any business being.

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>>388609117

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>>388608660
/ss/ doujins when

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>>388610306

>>388588080
bemani games at top level are typically used with random effectors
not to mention popn, iidx and gfdm, even djmax have tight timing

>>388610306
thats a weird way to type /s/

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>>388610647
doujin where len dances in front of younger people than him when

>>388611136
sick fuck

not older people? how do you self insert in that unless...you degenerate