Why do pros hate mirror matches in fighting games? Wouldn't

Who cares what pros think or like.

>>388429725
>Why do pros hate mirror matches in fighting games?


Because it strikes their ego when they lose and people go thinking there is a better player for that character than him.

>>388429725
Because I always lose mirror matches, because I can't cheese.

>>388429725
Because they only have to blame themselves if they lose.

>>388429725
I'm not a pro of any kind but I dislike mirror matches.

>>388429725
>Wouldn't it be the ultimate skill test? No character countering the other, no favorable matchups, just the best playing defeating the other based on pure skill.
They hate it because it would be the ultimate skill test. No character countering the other, no favorable matchups, just the best playing defeating the other based on pure skill.

>>388429725
because for most characters, a mirror match isn`t actually a perfectly balanced 5-5 as odd as that sounds

>>388431379
>>388429725
also you don't tend to focus on/train for the mirror match so dealing iwth your own bullshit can often be quite shocking

>>388431379
It's not so bad most of the time, it really depends on how the character plays, or how they should be played rather.

Guile vs Guile, both of them want to sit in a corner and play sonic boom & flash kick. Which means now neither can do this.

Rashid vs Rashid? Well fuck it we'll just rush down an press shit an see what happens.

>>388429725
It's just cuz it's not fun and boring.

I play melee so this probably doesn't count but I don't like mirror matches with my main (marth) because they just boil down to how much you can cheese the other player

>>388429725
GunZ glad pros would always do mirror matches 1v1

>>388431379
>a mirror match isn`t actually a perfectly balanced 5-5
elaborate
both players start exactly at the same conditions and have the exact same tools at their disposal

>>388434031
This. What the fuck man.

>>388434031
Yes, but if both players are playing a character like Izanami in Blazblue, whoever gets touched first has an incredibly difficult time coming back and winning because while their pressure and offensive game is incredible, they lack defensive options. The "5-5" becomes like a 7-3 in favor of whoever got the first hit. Is it still a 5-5?
I think it is but the guy you initially responded to probably doesn't

>>388434325
>Is it still a 5-5?
It is, it's not even a question.

>>388434031
>>388434178
It's not because their exact same tools aren't necessarily apt at dealing with themselves. You take a character with crazy setplay/okizeme and no reversal and start a mirror match. That's not a 5-5 matchup. It's 10-0 to whoever gets the first knockdown. There's nothing even about it, no defense and super degenerate oppressive setplay means it's just russian roulette first fall takes the set. There's no back and forth equal opportunity that's emblematic of an even matchup, some characters cannot deal with themselves.

>>388435440
but they would both have equal opportunity at that first knockdown, therefore it is 5-5.
Fucking fgc tards, I swear

>>388435440
Has literally nothing to do with it, they could both have 1f jabs that OHK for all I care. It's an exact 5/5 by fucking definition, both characters are on perfectly even grounds.

>>388429725
I've never heard of a pro saying they hate mirror matches.

>>388435609

5-5 refers to the whole match not just one aspect of it. Take Balrog in SFV for example, he in general has mostly 6-4, 7-3 match-ups in his favour. Now you would expect that to mean that he'll be winning from the offset but most of that favour comes from his comeback potential from V-trigger so he can be losing most of the match and still have the match in his favour.

What >>388435440 is pointing out is that the minute the first hit is done the match is no longer a 5-5 but a 7-3 to the first attacker because that character can't deal with his own bullshit. SO for the majority of the match it's a 7-3 not a 5-5.

>>388431574
>/v/ talks about fighting games

>tfw your character is the best counter to itself

>>388435972
LowTierGod says it all the time

>>388436154
>pros

>>388436183
>Goes to tournaments and plays the game for a living
>not a pro

>>388435972

NuckleDu doesn't like mirror matches, I know that much. Sure there's a Tekken pro as well who'll play another character.

>>388435997
yeah, what in the whole match is not perfectly equal? You bring up v-trigger which both players have. They have all the same fucking tools. Until that first hit happens, it is 5-5. This is a stupid ass argument that I can't believe be happening.

>>388436154
>>388436360
LTG insta-rage quits for over 2/3rds of the cast, he's not a pro, he's an overly opinionated scrub.

>>388435997
Divekick is 7-3, you heard it here first, folks. Go suck some more of cannon bros. dick.

There's two cases, either you're a little bitch who can't beat your mirror, or you play a defensive style.

These mirrors with two defensive characters/race/composition can actually be fucking hell to play if the best move is to NOT attack. This has been seen on starcraft 1 and 2 before, where two players would max out half the map and decide to DRAW, because defender's advantage (coupled with a mined out map) would mean the attacking player would lose. It's very rare, but it has happened more than once.

A simple TvT match is about 10 times more boring than any other MUs (including the other race mirrors) because defending as a terran is just so good. It's not the only way out, but some people develop defending way more than anything else, and then when you find someone like you it gets really boring

>>388435997
so it is a 5-5. its just that the one that hits first wins

>>388436381

The first hit could happen in the first second of the match and the match could then go on for 60 seconds. So in a mirror match as >>388435440 describes for only 1 second was it 5-5, for the majority of the match it would be 10-0 to whoever got the first hit.

To be fair I actually agree moreso with you on this and prefer to refer to it as a character either having a bad mirror match or a good one, however in Japan there are communities (Blazblue) who do factor this into tiers.

>>388436829
>These mirrors with two defensive characters/race/composition can actually be fucking hell to play if the best move is to NOT attack
Fei Long vs Fei Long in SF4 resulted in timer wins like 1/3rd of the time, it was so slow and awful.

>>388436859
You keep adding more words that don't disprove how that first hit is NOT perfectly equal in opportunity. Your line of argument is worthless, because it is not disproving the core point. This fallacy is called a strawman. I don't feel like wasting any more of my free time on this bullshit. Go take a logic class.

>>388437009
elena too

I still liked SF4 a lot more than SFV

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>>388436651
truuuuuuuuuu

Bang vs Bang in Blazblue is the ultimate high.

>>388437259
And ultimate earrape.

>>388437312

Jam in Revelator mirrors

A mirror match can't be anything other than 50/50 by symmetry, but one has to wonder if it is mathematically possible for a random binary event to not have a well defined expectation value at all.

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>>388437440
I forgot my image.

>>388429725
>>Why do pros hate mirror matches in fighting games?
>few selected pros said they hate mirror matches
>therefore all of pros hate mirror matches
You aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?

>>388429725
>Wouldn't it be the ultimate skill test?

No. Have you ever played a fighting game?

No matter what game, no matter what character, playing a mirror match is always different from every other MU in the game (except maybe clone characters), because in the neutral, both players have the same options as each other. A lot of players find it annoying honestly.

>>388436154
>>388436183
>>388436651
>>388437139
Well worth the watch if you haven't already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH6dfof5B0Q

>>388437440
>one has to wonder if it is mathematically possible for a random binary event to not have a well defined expectation value at all

It is perfectly possible. It's true for a fuckton of common probability distributions. Did you just learn what an expected value is in class last week?

>>388434325
you're confusing "balanced" with "fun/interesting".

the gimmick of the fight changes, but it's still balanced perfectly.

>>388434031
>>388434178
Because different players develop different techniques and how well those techniques work against their own character can make a big difference.

If player A has better overall results than player B, but player B beats player A in the mirror match, most people just say, "Well, he's better in the mirror." Player A has developed more skills that are useful against most of the cast, while player B has spent more energy learning the mirror. That doesn't change the fact that player A is much more likely to go further in a tournament.

>>388438079
>one hour
Nopeeeeeeeeee

>>388438535
Your loss bud. At least watch the intro, skim through the fights, and the ending interviews

>>388437067

This is where the whole thing comes from, gonna copy paste Jiyuna's explanation about Blazblue. Edited a bit but it's just who's he replying to.

>I'll try explaining again for you and anyone else who's interested in advanced character analysis- you're saying a 5-5 matchup between two different characters is the same as any mirror match in the game. Japan is saying that for a "normal" mirror match, this holds true- just play your character, and the better player will win. For a difficult mirror (which you say is the same as any other matchup), you need to play very differently and you lose a lot of your tools which make up the foundation of your character- when this happens, luck becomes a much larger factor in the matchup compared to the "normal" 5-5 mirrors. And if you've played fighting games for a while, you know that gimmicky/lucky/dice-roll characters are always ranked lower due to lack of stability. (Fuerte, Satsuki, grapplers in general).

>So yes, congratulations on using your logic and ability to add + divide, but that's not what the Japanese are saying about mirror matches. Characters with a bad mirror like Arakune have much less control over the match, are much more likely to get randomed out, and therefor the Japanese take that into consideration when ranking them overall. If you still don't believe me, come to Japan and watch the way the best players counter-pick each other- no one ever counter picks Mame's Ragna with Ragna, but people always lose to Hima Arakune and then counter with Arakune (and win way more than they should).

>Tl;dr- Yes, with perfect play all mirrors are 5-5; but with perfect play, people would block Litchi's mixup 100% of the time and Lambda would never let you near her. Stop thinking tier lists are about "logic" and "math" and just listen to players that could double perfect you with their 9th alt char.

>>388438350
Different anon here. You are correct, but it's still a valid answer to OP's original question. Pros hate mirror matches for the same reason low level players hate them: because they can be fucking annoying sometimes.

>>388438079
That guy at the start looks like he almost shat himself after calling LTG a bitch lmao

>>388438773

Also for relevance on the 'Ragna' comment is because Ragna has a very good mirror match and loses no tools and can play exactly how he wants to play, even gaining some tools.

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>>388429725
I live for mirror matches.

Last night I spent 2 hours playing with the same guy in Blazblue. 2 hours of Hakumen mirrors

pals 4 lyf

I don't like mirror matches because I almost always end up playing characters that can blow up your health in 3 hits if you actually get touched by them (mostly Elizabeth in P4A that mirror is awful). I always switch to my sub if someone picks my main because shit sucks.
>>388438773
Didn't everyone think Jiyuna was retarded for posting this? Like, I disagree with him though understand where he's coming from, but he still gets laughed at for this from time to time.

>>388438270
>binary event
Apparently you never learned to begin with lmao.

>>388429725
I dislike mirror matches because in alot of games the difference between your character and their character is minimal and it's easy to mix up which is yours.

>>388429725
1) it's also the ultimate humiliation because if you lose it basically means your opponent is better at playing your character

2) it's generally less interesting if both characters use the same moveset and have the same ranges. playing other characters will obviously lead to a more dynamic and interesting game

>>388439807

Yeah, like I said to that other anon I don't actually agree with the idea but I was trying to show him where the idea is coming from etc.

>>388440195
>it basically means your opponent is better at playing your character
It means your opponent is better at the match up than you are, at best.
If another Ryu player happens to have Daigo's number in SF4, does that make them a better Ryu than Daigo? Of course not, unless they have also have the tournament results to back them up.

>>388429725
I never see mirror matches in Injustice 2 because I play a mid-low tier character but that's fine because it makes it that much more fun when I get a competent mirror.

I was a top 10 Joker at one point. Could probably hold on to that rank if I wasn't a full time wagecuck.

>>388429725
>Why do pros hate mirror matches in fighting games?
>Wouldn't it be the ultimate skill test? No character countering the other, no favorable matchups, just the best playing defeating the other based on pure skill.

That is the exact reason WHY the "pros" hate mirror matches in the first place. There are no John's. If you and your oppennt are going the whole round with the same exact set-up and are using exact replica's of each other, then if you lose the match, you are going to be BTFO and both you and your opponent will both know who the worse player was, no bullshit. You always here shit from "pros" like, "oh, it was just a bad match-up", and mist people jump on their dick to agree and white knight them, but the moment you enter a mirror match and get BTFO, you just know that those excuses are invalid, even if your fan-base still gargles down your balls, and it really fucks with the ego of the loser on a whole different level.

>>388437364
Never say that about my waifu again

>>388437067
>>388436381
>>388435609
you don't know what matchups means and you don't understand the number system, shut your ass up

>>388440993
Forget work, win tournaments and get those WBucks.

>>388434031
5-5, even chances, at any point of the match it could go either way, its a 50/50
in the examples given throughout the thread, the mirror matches cannot go either way throughout the match, they're damn near 10-0 in that whoever gets the early lead will always always crush the opponent utterly. In other words, it's a bad matchup.

>>388429725
Mirror matches are boring, there is no match up.

The difference between characters and how they play is the most interesting thing about fighting games, if both people are playing the same character there is no match up so its boring.

>>388434325
wtf that's completely wrong do you even know what 7-3 and and 5-5 mean it refer to number of matches and thesw numbers dont change in middle of a match if one of them get the final mixup doesn't mean in second match he will also get the final match both players will start from zero and both will have equal chance of landing that mixup doesn't matter if it is a 100% considering the execution is not a factor between both of those players. You are contaminating innocent minds.
Mirror matches are always equal unless if it is like old ryu vs new ryu or like that.
Stop assuming weird things

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>>388443436
It was just an illustration, anon, geeeez. I know what the numbers mean, I was trying to showcase the other anon's viewpoint that matches where both players are utilizing the exact same set of tools may not necessarily be truly 5-5 matchups. I could've worded it better I guess.

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>>388429725
Because in real life, competitions are never mirror matches, and especially in fighting, irl, you do get vastly diffirent aproaches and styles under common rules. That is what competition is, you just want to gimp that. No. Boring.

>>388431145
Explain it you stupid cunt.

>>388436651
Do a thing? Get consistently paid? Still doing paid thing? You're a pro.

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>>388444027
You need to upgrade that Hakumaid my friend

>>388441651
I never buy the bad match up excuse. That is a choice someone made. The "bad" thing was their own choice. It's still on the competitor.
>oh shit im a striker only who just got thrown on my head by a wrestler?? Better just say it was a bad match up!

>>388444027
But its still wrong tho. Both have equal chance of things. You are thinking that if one wins the game its because of match up but no its just because of difference of skill. that's why people say don't mind tiers, there was a time O.hawk was considered top tier but its not necessarily true.
And if you go to srk wiki super turbo or even 3rd strike section there are strategy pointers written against same character but win lose rating is always left blank again considering if both chars are of same version

>>388429725
because """pros""" are huge ego whores
they can't handle it when someone calls them out on having no skill

I'm not a pro but I fucking love mirror matches as you can only gain from one.
If you win it's an ego boost, if you lose you can improve massively by looking at what the opponent did right and what you did wrong.

mirror matches vary wildly, like ryu vs ryu is perfectly fine but gief vs gief is absolute aids

>>388434325
>whoever gets touched first will lose

I don't understand. Isn't that like saying "whoever gets KOed first will lose"? The match started out perfectly balanced, whoever got touched first is obviously not as good. The only way it wouldn't be balanced is if the first hit was randomly decided.