If you gave a hundred players who've never heard of Zelda

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While I agree that Majora's Mask is the superior game I think more people are likely to be turned off by the time limit system.
Yes, if you are able to give it a chance, it objectively adds to the game both through gameplay and the thematic aspect.
However, if you don't have the patience to try it out you're just not going to enjoy it. You might time out once off guard and lose all your shit and dungeon progress and abandon the game in frustration.

Ocarina of Time is a more welcoming experience.

I loved ocarina of time but I was a poorfag so I never got the cartridge for majoras mask.
Should I emulate it right now?

>>388042026
Whatever you do, do not play the 3DS version.
It's legitimate trash compared to the original.

>>388042112

Thanks for the tip.

>>388041496
>they'd all agree that Majora's Mask is better.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
HE ACTUALLY BELIEVES THIS
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

>>388042026
You won't regret it.

>>388041496
ALTTP best 2d. MM best 3d.

>>388042421
Awakening is the best 2D if we discount graphics

>>388041782
this. OoT is a straight forward narrative adventure game. Majoras Mask is weird with its clock, timelimit, side quests, time traveling. The basic normie video game player would be turned off of MM within the first 30 minutes

>>388041496
MM introduced some interesting mechanics, but the low number of dungeons really hurts it. It also started the trend of "we can get away with a Zelda with fewer dungeons as long as we pack it with side content". Meanwhile OoT is the complete package. Dungeons, side content, story. It has everything. Considering MM was made in 18 months and meant to be a way to further recoup losses from the long OoT development by reusing the engine and assets I don't fault MM too much, but to call it as good as or even better than OoT is false.

>>388041496
This argument is so dumb that even calling it specious would be too generous

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ALTTP = MM > Links Awakening > Ages > Seasons > Minish Cap > 1 > Link Between Worlds >>>>>>>>>> [[[POWER GAP]]] >>>>>>> Links Crossbow Training > OOT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything Else

Undisputable list.

>>388043062
It's not.

>>388043608
extreme worst list

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>>388043685
Explain

>>388043062
Awakening is not better than Link to the Past.
I feel like there's an argument to be made for Link's Adventure but not Link's Awakening.

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>>388041782
Came in to say this.

more like major league ass

>>388041496

Played both, still prefer Ocarina. Majoras Mask is obviously still a great game but It was nowhere near as satisfying.

Majoras Mask didn't feel as open or rewarding as Ocarina. Ocarina made you start from the bottom using a shitty wooden sword and you eventually work up to a point where you have an excellent arsenal of powers and weapons all through skill, in two different forms (kid and teenager) It felt like it was on a grander scale. The non-linearity was a great plus in Ocarina's favour. Yeah it set a standard of linearity that later Zeldas would milk the fuck out of, but this game in comparison still had a great deal of freedom. The dungeon order, travelling between the past and the future, idk it felt incredibly liberating (especially with the new 3D technology)

Majoras Mask on the other hand was heavy. In both a good way and a bad way, heavy. Heavy story, heavy changes, heavy responsibility. Everything weighed you down. From an artistic perspective it's much more interesting and works well, but from a Zelda perspective it puts a dampen on what the series is known for. Exploring felt restricted and limited because of the moon, and the heavy linearity just gave me the impression that exploration wasn't my "priority", which honestly, in a series like Zelda, is a huge kick to the nuts. Everything had to be done in order. It was like someone took the freedom and openness of Zelda and replaced it with story and character. Whether thats bad is entirely subjective but to me the former is more important.

>>388043720
I'm not going to dissect a troll list

>>388043608

>Minish Cap
>the discount store ALLTP with a garbage gimmick and uninspired everything

>above ALBW (and above a whole other ton of stuff)

Jesus fucking christ has a list ever been this wrong

>>388042112
>It's legitimate trash compared to the original.
I don't see how it's possible to tell.

>>388041782
>my ADHD prevents me from reading
Millennials, everyone.

>>388044830
nice strawman

>>388044909
It's not a strawman, if you bother reading you'll learn how to save the game.

>>388042421
>being this wrong

>>388041496
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
No.

>>388041496
>Unless you're the type who says that Birth of a Nation is the best movie ever

This is some grade A bait

>>388041782
It would be interesting if the dungeons in MM didn't suck ass

>>388041496
If they've never played them before, they'd undoubtedly go for oot. Normal people don't have time for groundhog day bullshit

>>388041782
This guy's right, I loved MM but I initially dropped it for awhile.
You have to know what you're getting into with MM, whereas you can just pick up and play OoT without a hitch.

>>388044564
OoT>MM, you just have a lot of hipster faggots on /v/

You pretty much nailed it. These are usually just bait threads anyways.

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>>388044564
What a bunch of shit. You are objectively wrong and here's why:

OoT was incredibly on rails with the only real choice being between completing the Shadow or Spirit temple first. The traveling between timelines was barely a mechanic as it only furthers the story when you have to go back to being a kid for the Spirit temple. There aren't even a lot of sidequests and they tend to be very short, save for the Biggoron sword.

MM on the other hand is chock full of sidequests. The three day system really brings a lot to the table, the Anju and Kafei quest being a great example that puts the Biggoron quest to shame. The whole reason why the game has 4 temples is because of the amount of extra content spread throughout the world and time put into the pre-temple areas. Finally, just compare the work put into getting the Biggoron sword and into the getting the Fierce Deity mask.

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>>388041496
That's assuming the majority of people would appreciate the extra layer of gameplay and narrative it adds on top of OoT.

I'm not sure why you'd ever assume that to be the case.

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>>388044564
>Ocarina made you start from the bottom using a shitty wooden sword and you eventually work up to a point where you have an excellent arsenal of powers and weapons

In Majora's Mask you literally start as an entire person made of wood. With no sword.

MM is good, but it lacks the polish of OoT. I felt like I was playing an expansion pack, at the time.

>>388046431
>OoT was incredibly on rails with the only real choice being between completing the Shadow or Spirit temple first.
Wrong.
Forest -> Fire -> Water -> Shadow -> Spirit
Forest -> Fire -> Water -> Spirit -> Shadow
Fire -> Forest -> Water -> Shadow -> Spirit
Fire -> Forest -> Water -> Spirit -> Shadow
Forest -> Water -> Fire -> Shadow -> Spirit
Forest -> Water -> Fire -> Spirit -> Shadow
Forest -> Water -> Spirit -> Fire -> Shadow
>the Anju and Kafei quest being a great example
I sure do love waiting around for a bunch of arbitrary quest triggers.

Reminder Majora's Mask is a game only praised by /v/edditors.

>>388046431

The side quests in Majoras Mask didn't involve searching or finding outside of a few of them. They just involved finding someone sticking out like a sore thumb thats easy to find and then watching cutscenes while filling in the gaps with simple tasks. They were side quests that the game basically encouraged you to do because it had put much less effort into filling the world with places to explore. Each of Ocarina's 9 dungeons were either huge on the inside, had huge locations surrounding them you had to traverse, or both. Like I said, 9 dungeons in a bigger map feels much grander. Also:

>the only real choice being between completing the Shadow or Spirit temple first

That's not true. You can do the first 3 dungeons in the future in whichever order you want (to some extent anyway, the fire temple needs the bow for some areas).

It doesn't matter how much you offer to do outside of the main quest. If that development time bleeds into what Zelda games are known for then it's not a better experience. Just a different experience.
Ocarina just felt less scripted. It felt like an adventure you were doing for yourself, not a heavy emotional journey the world needed you to do as soon as possible.

>>388046668
Are you counting exploits?

>>388041782
how long do dungeons take, if you know exactly what to do?

>>388046668
Doesn't Fire Temple require some completion of Forest Temple and Water also some completion of fire I can't really remember but I'm pretty sure the tools you need for each or to get into each are from the previous.

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>>388047371
>bigger map

I'm triggered. Having a big open field in the middle gives the illusion of having a big area but it's just a fucking ILLUSION. The actual map outside of the dull emptiness of Hyrule field is quite small.

>>388047525
You only need the Bow to access to the Map in the Fire Temple and the Hammer is never explicitly required a single time outside of the Fire Temple.

>>388047919
>Hammer is never explicitly required a single time outside of the Fire Temple

Yeah I guess if you don't wanna have fun.

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>>388043384
OoT's side content doesn't remotely compare to MM's. 24 masks to collect and NPC's all with unique, daily schedules and side quests.

>>388048020
>I don't know what 'explicitly' means: the post

>>388048116
>I don't know what "fun" means: the anon

>>388041496

>4 dungeons instead of like, 8 or whatever

Even as a kid I felt ripped off at getting half the game, but the grim dark hit me just right as opposed to Twink links boy stocking and earring

>>388041496
Cringe

>>388048084
>24 masks to collect
All of which are pretty much useless and as a matter of fact the Circus Leader's Mask is for all practical reasons completely useless since the only use it has is to redo the quest that you did to get it in the first place.

>>388048313
But you got the full game?

>>388048313
Even if they aren't considered "temples" Majora's Mask has a bunch of challenge areas that are just as if not more complicated than those in Ocarina, like the Gerudo pirate area for instance

>>388048841
Ahh yes the Zora egg fetch quest, brilliant moment.

>>388048941
If you replaced the eggs with keys and had Link get some special medallion at the end, people would call it a dungeon. Just because there's a common item doesn't mean it isn't a Dungeon.

>>388048941
fuck that part

whenever i want to replay majora that part holds me back

>>388049121
Unless you're talking about the eels, which I of course wouldn't count as a dungeon.

>>388049121
I don't recall having to get a certain amount of keys because I only hold so many since there are limited vessels for the eggs, go deliver them and then return to collect more and repeat that two or three times for ANY dungeon in the series.

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>>388048368
Every mask serves some sort of purpose and the means by which to acquire them were all interesting. Story and atmosphere-wise MM also blows OoT out of the water. OoT did have a larger amount of and more creative dungeons though, I'll give it that, but that alone doesn't stack up to all of the assets MM brought to the table (and even with that Ikana was amazing).

>>388049506
>Story and atmosphere
Stopped reading there, the minute someone mentions 'story' when talking about a game's positives there a pretty good chance it's garbage.
>Every mask serves some sort of purpose
The Circus Leader Mask serves literally no purpose, you don't get anything for redoing the cart escort.

>>388049871
The emotions a game makes you feel are valid. As long as it doesn't interfere with gameplay there's no reason to be upset about it.

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>>388050020
>feeling emotions

I want normiefags to ge the fuck off this board.

>>388045591
I'm the most correctest.

>>388043062
Nah. It's good though.

>>388050219
Someday we'll be able to test for legitimate psychopathy at birth and throw those kids off a mountain.

>>388049871
>the minute someone mentions 'story' when talking about a game's positives there a pretty good chance it's garbage

>>388049871
>Dungeons, side content, story. It has everything.

I guess that makes Ocarina of Time garbage. Especially since MM beats OoT in side content (I gave OoT credit for "dungeons"). If you're the OP you're a flip flopper. If not you're reductionist who's not worth listening to. Saying that story doesn't matter in a game is as retarded as saying that graphics, music, and level design don't matter.

>>388047425
If you know what to do, about 20 minutes approx.

>>388050453
Graphics matter because they're literally the constitution of the video game. They are the "video" in video game. Without them there is no video game. They are one of the two essential things.

Story is non-essential but like music/sound it can be used to enhance.

>>388042112
The boss fights are shit, I'll give you that. But what else is wrong with it?

>>388050752
I only disagree in that sound design is far more important than story in games. Some games are known for their music more than anything else.

>>388050752
>Graphics matter because they're literally the constitution of the video game

Nothing beyond Pong's graphics are "essential" or in any way matter using this dumb logic.

>>388051113
Then you're not disagreeing because that's what I agree with.

>>388051227
Try to make Skyrim using only 2D pong graphics.

Graphics are the visual representaiton of gameplay and need to be detailed enough and increasingly complex with the gameplay's rising complexity to represent it accurately in order to give that visual indication and feedback to the player. Graphics, gameplay, the two essential parts of a video game. Everything else is extra and enhancement. Audio can be used to give auditory cues to the gameplay like sound effects that give the player even more interaction and feedback from their interaction with the system. Story can add an extra layer of player investment. However it is objectively true that the only two essentials are gameplay and graphics.

>>388041496
What about Legend of Zelda: Birth of a Nation?

>>388049871
Although I always put Gameplay and Level Design over Story, you can't be that dense and say the story and atmosphere = garbage.
A great game usually is a combination of great gameplay and level design with a descent to great story. I.E. Silent Hill 1 - 3

>>388049871
>the minute someone mentions 'story' when talking about a game's positives there a pretty good chance it's garbage
Except when the base gameplay is essentially the same between the two.

>>388051532
And REmake's non linear and interconnected level design along with superior replayability makes it the far better survival horror game.

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>>388051440
>Try to make Skyrim using only 2D pong graphics.

I could make Skyrim using text.

Now try making Planescape Torment without any writing or Guitar Hero without any music.

>>388051889
>I could make Skyrim using text.
Nope, that wouldn't visually create the gameplay. Skyrim requires 3D models and environments to translate its gameplay visually.

>Now try making Planescape Torment without any writing or Guitar Hero without any music.
Sure.

>>388042112
>Whatever you do, do not play the 3DS version.

No, I'm honestly going to have to say that the opposite is true. The 3DS version is the only version that is actually worth playing because it improves on the original game in incredibly meaningful ways. The single best thing it does is that it actually encourages you to search for quests by interacting with the characters in various way, since speaking to them at the appropriate times can cause them to reveal information about what relevant quest might occur at a given point.

This is in contrast to the original game which STRAIGHT UP gives you all the times for all of a given character's quests as soon as you talk to them, and otherwise discourages you from talking to them at other times unless you have a specific reason to because of how much time you waste in doing so.

>>388052260
>Skyrim requires 3D models and environments to translate its gameplay visually

No. Most of the Elder Scroll games aren't even 3D.

>Sure
How?

>>388051801
Level design is a Mansion but that doesn't mean it isn't linnear, there's still a sequence for you to progress in REmake. Linnearity doesnt mean that you're on rails 100% of the time, it means that you need to pass through a sequence for the game to let you progress

>>388052847
>No. Most of the Elder Scroll games aren't even 3D.
Most of the Elder Scrolls games are not Skyrim and do not have the same gameplay as Skyrim. Understand? The graphics are a necessary visual delivery of the gameplay.

>How?
Keep the graphics and gameplay and remove the writing/music.

BotW is unironically better than both desu. Also not /v/ related.
>>>/vr/

>>388053041
>Most of the Elder Scrolls games are not Skyrim
Most of the Elder Scroll games are very much like Skyrim which in turn are very much like Tabletop RPGs that have no graphics at all.

>Keep the graphics and gameplay and remove the writing/music.
There is no gameplay without either. That's why it's retarded to separate gameplay from story and music in the first place. RPGs like Planescape Torment and Adventure Games like Grim Fandango progress by interacting with characters to progress the story. With Guitar Hero you're either trolling or bafflingly have been living under a rock and have no idea what it is.

>>388041782
This. Ocarina would be the most liked. I particularly prefer Ocarina because of turbo nostalgia, but I recognize Majora's Mask created an incredible atmosphere and game mechanics and should be considered the best one.

Thing is, most gamers don't care about atmosphere, time travel mechanics or well crafted side quests. On the other hand, most gamers get excited when they become adult Link for the first time, and Oot as a whole plays more like an epic legend than Majora's, which is, relatively, more introspective. This somewhat makes Oot more memorable. Both games would be well liked even today, though.

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>>388043608

>>388047371
>side quests in Majoras Mask didn't involve searching or finding outside of a few of them.

This is a huge, huge deal that its fans are extremely weary of acknowledging. The way quest work (in the 64 version at least) means that you spend most of you time either

-Setting up something you've already done before in preparation to test out something new
-Waiting around for a character to do something at a given time because you were told to do so or because it's otherwise obvious and simple to work out
-Not knowing specifically what to do and trying out things in the small few minute windows you actually get to test things out and hoping that something ends up working lest you have to repeat the previous steps to try it again

The problem is that, given the short amounts of time you are given, things have to either be fairly straightforward, or otherwise you end up wasting tons of time because you only have a short time to experiment in. This means that quests with genuinely difficult and 'clever' solutions are actively fucked over by the game's quest structure, where in OoT you have all the time in the world to figure out who to give a given item to and so the game is free to allow the solution to a given quest to take place in any area in the game.

MM actually has some really interesting quest solutions itself, but the best it has to offer are actually those that have the least to do with the time system, the complexity of which ends up in chains of events that least into each other but which don't take advantage of their potential to encouraging the player to explore mysteries and reason about solutions to them instead of mostly being based around trial and error as they are in practice. The adult trading quest in OoT (including gaining Epona) is IMO legitimately better than any of MM's timed quest chains.

Conversely, MM has no optional mini-dungeon as good as the Gerudo Training Grounds, nor does it have a collection quest as good as OoTs' skultula.

>>388053750
>Most of the Elder Scroll games are very much like Skyrim which in turn are very much like Tabletop RPGs that have no graphics at all.

And yet you cannot replicate Skyrim's gameplay without 3D models, animations, environments, etc. You're spinning your wheels here against a point which cannot be moved because it is objectively true. There is a level of graphics needed to represent the coding and system calculation of a player making an input which triggers the numbers representing a 3Dimensional movement of a model representing an avatar in hitboxes on an X, Y, and Z axis.

>There is no gameplay without either.
Yes, there literally is. There is player input which triggers an interactive series of coding (creating a visual representation of that interaction). A video game.

You're just arguing against a basic objective necessity here. A video game is gameplay and graphics. Sound can then enhance the gameplay with audio cues tied to feedback from input. Story cran create investment and give direction. However there is literally nothing at all which is ever going to change the fact that the two core and only absolutely necessary factors are gameplay and the visual representation of the gameplay.

>>388054212
>collection quest as good as OoTs' skultula.
This is fucking garbage though, they're collectibles that expand your wallet when there's nothing to spend rupees with in that game. I think OoT is the infinitely better game but you're a retard if you think that is a highpoint of a side quest.

Majora's Mask is weird. It has weird music, weird themes, weird relationships (you basically lose all the progress you make with a character when you go back in time, despite still knowing them, and you know they're still going to die.), weird final boss. Not to the point to be a "hipster game" or something like that, but most people would give it a weird look, even today. Oot has an heroic "save the princess" story line that's just more relatable to people.

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>>388054212
>biggoron sword quest
>better than anju and kafei

>>388054352
My point isn't that Skultulas are a 'highpoint' of the game, but rather that they serve a specific purpose better than any equivalent in MM. In MM all the collection quests jam all the collectables into a single area that you're expected to clear out in one go. Whereas in OoT, the skultulas existing as they gives you incentive to actually explore the world as a whole and progressively find more over the course of your play. They are naturally integrated into the world in such a way that means you're more likely to find something be searching through the world carefully than not. Whereas in MM, outside of stumbling upon heart pieces and the rare quest, there's no reward to fill that hole (often quite literally) and so exploring the environment more often turns up empty.

>>388055164
>the skultulas existing as they gives you incentive to actually explore the world
No they don't because expanding the amount of rupees you can hold is not a meaningful reward when there's nothing to spend them on.

>>388055164
Yeah what would I do without that rumble pack activator for the rumble pack I don't have?

>>388054760
Yes, and I have good reason to hold this.

For one, getting Epona is itself an optional quest that is a prerequisite for to total completion of the Biggoron quest. So that itself forms part of the quest.

Secondly, the clues the game gives you as to who you ultimately give the saw to, how they are woven into the world and how you can piece them together are much more clever than any equivalent in KafeixAnju that is actually relevant to the quest's solution.

The whole complex of quests and character interactions surrounding KafeixAnju is actually extremely interesting and intricate, but very little of it is relevant to the solution of the actual quest in the same way. Discovering things like Kafei's diary means little when you discover his identity by waiting around for the mailman either way. It's actually a shame because the game could have easily pushed this mystery aspect much further and done stuff like made accessing the knife room relevant to getting Anju to trust you.

>>388056189
I'll agree that MM was a missed oppritunity, but the biggoron sword quest was literally point a to b to c etc...
The most it did to relate to non quest stuff was that guy dying and even that was just a subtle nod to deepest lore.

Overall, OoT just had a fetchquest while MM made you care about what you were doing.

>>388056619
>while MM made you care about what you were doing.
*tips*

Majoras mask is a great game. But when I first played it I was turned off because it didn't feel like a zelda game to me for some reason. I remember being dissapointed as a young kid. Then I gave it a shot a few months after getting it and I loved everything about it.

>>388054308
>game is about playing music
>doesn't require music

No.

>representing a 3Dimensional movement of a model representing an avatar in hitboxes on an X, Y, and Z axis.

Skryim barely even uses it's Z axis, as is true for most 3D RPGs in which you can't rise more than two feet from the ground or jump as anything more than a novelty. You can go through the entire game without ever jumping once leaving you with the x and y axis available if the game was 2D.

Graphic quality is one of the least important qualities of a game which is why Final Fantasy 6 will always be more heavily revered than the prettier looking newer ones. This is largely due to its writing. And this would still be true whether the game was in 2D or 3D.

>>388056923
I wonder if /v/ were around when it was released it we'd see more shitposting than we are right now with BotW.

>>388057028
Yes, actually. The game is making two inputs, your strum and your fret buttons, at the time which they are coordinated with the window on screen. That is the game.

>Skryim ...
Everything after this is completely irrelevant to the unmoving point.

>Graphic quality is one of the least important qualities of a game
Nice goalpost move. We're not talking about "quality" in the sense of aesthetic gratuity. We're talking about the bare minimum visual representation of the gameplay. You can make graphics exceed that bare minumum but it doens't change the fact that the bare baseline requirement for graphics is objectively essential to the video game and therefor more important that audio and story which are again, objectively, not essential.

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Why do you people keep responding to this asshole? Don't you see he gives us Majora's Mask fans a bad name? He's been at this asinine tirade against OoT for three fucking years. And everytime somebody versed in Zelda like >>388044564, >>388046668, or >>388047371 respond he posts a picture of Plankton to show you he has a Napolean Complex. He only owns Majora's Mask and a few other games so he feels inferior to all us with modern consoles. He's not even a real Majora's Mask fan because he's also the memer who posts in every thread saying the 3D remake is shit, just like he did in this thread. If anything it's better, but he's too mentally challenged to comprehend anything outside the scope of his little bubble of reality.

Seriously, stop letting him make a fool out of you and sage this shitty thread.Unless you're trying to trick him into joining a Facebook group and letting his identity slip so I can DOX his ass, quit dignifying him with your time.

>>388056804
>not an argument
OoT is a straightforward journey without much plot importance
Everything in MM is about the people you meet and how you help them solve their problems.
They both have the exact same gameplay, even with masks, so there's no point trying to compare them, so that makes it all come down to presentation which is the entire focus of MM and therefore, makes it superior to OoT.
Prove me wrong. Protip you can't

>>388056619
>but the biggoron sword quest was literally point a to b to c etc

But that IS actually true of KxA to an even greater extent. Finding Kafei in Ikana is itself the most creative aspect of the quest, and the bulk of it is a combination of waiting around and tedious trial and error.

>The most it did to relate to non quest stuff was that guy dying
Conversely, getting to the point where you'd think of trying to trade with that guy's father involves a more freeform process of discovery and lateral thinking beyond what KxA itself involves for the most part.

>>388057363
>Skyrim requires 3D models and environments to translate its gameplay visually
>Skyrim doesn't require 3D models
>Irrelevant

Nice goal post move.

>it doens't change the fact that the bare baseline requirement for graphics is objectively essential to the video game

This is irrelevant though. Especially if your argument is that story doesn't matter. Obviously it does or no game would be acclaimed for its story.

You would have to be delusional to think that more people would like rewinding time ad infinitum: the game over ocarina of time if they had never heard of zelda.

>>388058519
>Nice goal post move.
No, the goalpost remains, Skyrim requiers 3D models.

>This is irrelevant though.
No, it's not. It's 100% the entire debate actually. That graphics are essential and story is not.

>Especially if your argument is that story doesn't matter.
Not what I said.

At this point you're so fucking far off the mark you can't even understand what the discussion was and it's literally not possible for you to change the facts as they stand so you've pretty much just used up your (You)s from me now.

>>388058363
I understand what you're saying, but the truth of it is that all that thinking is unnecessary when you're told where to go most the time and the rest of it most likely amounts to progressing through the story and guess work.

Like I said, there was missed potential in MM, but it built upon OoT by having their story and relationships being indirectly relevant to many parts and secrets around clock town.

>>388058904
>No, the goalpost remains, Skyrim requiers 3D models.

And yet Skyrim doesn't even make use of its Z-axis, a fact you disregarded as "irrelevant." Can't even keep track of your own arguments.

>Not what I said.

"the minute someone mentions 'story' when talking about a game's positives there a pretty good chance it's garbage."

>>388059056
>but the truth of it is that all that thinking is unnecessary when you're told where to go most the time and the rest of it most likely amounts to progressing through the story and guess work.

Which is exactly what I'm saying is every bit as much true of MM. Like, I get that you love how the quests allows the game to present the story of the characters and how you discover this, which is totally a fair thing to praise in itself and which I don't disagree with you on, but none of this was better integrated into the actual process of doing the quest itself and I don't think you're disputing this.

I mean, it's really nice that stuff like the bomb bag quest actually meaningfully interacts with this quest line how it does, but ultimately once you understand this it's simply a matter of not doing that quest at the same time. I appreciate the incredible amount of detail that was put into it like this, but you realize as much as I do that very little of it affects how you'd want to manipulate it to play out to the extent it might have.

>>388050717
Not even. If you know what you're doing 10 minutes.