Why do modern developers struggle so hard to grasp the concept

>>387204774
because they're still dumbing things down for a casual audience so they can make a widespread profit.
video games are now an industry about profits first, not a small team creating their vision of a game with fun and gameplay first.
and they never will be again.

Where's the fucking demo Romero? What happened to you and Adrian Carmack*'s game?

*no relation

>>387204774
It doesn't work on consoles.

>>387204964
>Where's the fucking demo Romero?
he decided to make a taco game with his wife's son instead

i wish i was joking

>>387205140
>the kickstarter was pulled more than a year ago
>blackroom website is still up

goddammit, he's just deathmatching in Quake Champions isn't he?

>>387204891
fpbp

Why build a community when you can charge $20 for map packs?

>The market for classic shooters is still there
>Every classic shooter is DOA
Ebin

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>>387204774
Old school shooters are fucking shit
Middle school shooters from the early 00s are the best

>>387205605
>Every classic shooter is DOA
Name one

>>387204774
Fucking Romero. This man could've been the rock star of gaming, but he fancied himself the rock star of gaming, so he became shit instead.

>>387204774
most game developers are now millennial hipsters. They follow the orders of their corporate overlords. Game devs working for the big triple AAA companies in my mind have no soul and are drones.

Any self respecting passionate game designer would tell an overbearing "plz create dumbed down gaem" overlords to fuck off and quit immediately.

I respect the Blizzard North crew who did so way back.

>>387205697
Halo 2 and Modern Warfare are the best

>>387204774
Developers don't do this anymore because they can't sell mods and map packs for $60, and rather not do it at all if they're only going to make $20. These "amazing mods" are nothing but more content for the base game plus maybe some little enhancements.

>>387204774
yeah maybe, but he tried to make me his bitch that one time and thats not cool man.

>>387205939
>Any self respecting passionate game designer would tell an overbearing "plz create dumbed down gaem" overlords to fuck off and quit immediately.

Spoken like a true NEET. Self-respect gets you literally nothing. Suck cock to make the make the money. The trick to following your dreams without being a stooge is to suck cock just enough to make them trust you, and then sneak your own shit in. In a world owned by the establishment, it's the only way.

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>>387204774
When did Romero become such a cuck?

>>387205697
Shooters were never good. It's a genre for angsty teenagers that healthy people grow out of when they go to college.

>>387204891
There's also a fundamental difference between the audiences now compared to back then. During the 80s and 90s, games were about being challenging, to that point that a game could brag about how challenging it is as a selling point.

These days we get Bioshock Infinite's hilarious retarded 1999 mode or whatever the fuck that was, which was just some half-ass shit-tier garbage they shoved into the game without caring how games actually played in 1999.

>>387204774
I think a lot of the passion got taken out. Most games now feel souless, like they were designed in a boardroom with focus groups trying to hit all those checkboxes; open world, progression, "visceral combat" etc. You still find a few passion projects here and there, but they're a lot rarer these days.

>>387206296
looks like he reproduced way more than you and your hand ever will

>>387206296
the lady looks like a demon

>>387206273
>audiences
the Indie-Team to the rescue! INDIE GAME DEV!!>>387206504

>>387206535
>reproduced
That's his wife's son.

>>387206504
Great games are a work of art created by passionate artists working together. You are correct in saying modern games feel soulless. It feels mass produced and technical.

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where muh sonny jims at?

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>>387206418
This
Intelligent people like us mature gamers have migrated to far superior MMORPG games a long time ago

>>387206665
I don't think so, Sonny Jim.

>>387204774

>and it's objectively better designed than all of Nu-Doom in its entirety

You don't have to try that hard, kid. I've been playing DOOM since 1993 and while no newer DOOMs will surpass them, DOOM '2016 is still fun. Still, can't believe about that new level he made.

Does anyone have any idea why literally every "oldschool shooter" in modern times is actually just arenas between hallways? Like how did this meme even happen?

Did people forget that games like DooM, Duke3D, Blood, Shadow Warrior had open maps that you could progress through or backtrack through with some degree of freedom rather than literally

>Go down hallway
>Big open arena, kill dudes
>Door opens, go down hallway
>Big open arena, kill dudes
>Door opens go down hallway

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Post yfw
>didn't back Strafe

>>387204774
>Why do modern developers struggle so hard to grasp the concept of "old school" FPS?

Real simple answer. It is fear. They don't want to go too much in the direction of old school FPS because they fear it will alienate the very important casual bucks. So instead they take a few elements while making it play mostly like any other modern shooter. This allows them to make the claim it is old school while playing it safe by not going all the way in that direction. In their eyes potentially losing any casual audience.

>>387206612
He has three kids of his own.

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>>387207031

>>387206296
When did he become a woman from the neck down? Also
>wife's son

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>>387206273
>The trick to following your dreams without being a stooge is to suck cock just enough to make them trust you, and then sneak your own shit in. In a world owned by the establishment, it's the only way.

I wholeheartedly agree.

>>387206665

sonny jim army reporting in!

>>387207016
Doom, Duke, Blood, and Shadow Warrior all had sprite-based enemies, which weren't very intensive to render and thus allowed developers to fill the map with however many they liked. When games moved to polygonal enemies developers had to consider enemy placement thoroughly to avoid having to render too many at once. You'll notice that Quake, despite being made by roughly the same team as Doom and Doom 2, has dramatically fewer enemies per level than those games did because of the shift to polygons. Arenas became popular because they allow for encounters with large numbers of enemies that are continuously spawned in, without having to worry about things like the player running past early enemies and thus dragging them into already high-population areas.

Honestly, I don't think the "old school" shooter market is a big as nostalgiafags think it is. Most people I knew in my childhood who were really into FPS don't seem to die-hard nostalgic about the entire genre.

And if they aren't gonna' buy it, who will? The """modern""" FPS crowd are all drawn in by Overwatch, TF2 and other meme-shooters.

When Quake Champions comes out, and is revealed to be DOA (something that should honestly not come as a surprise to anyone at this point) the genre will finally die and the casuals can continue playing Halo.

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>>387207514
those sprite based games were still really intensive on contemporary hardware when new anon and the designers certainly had to consider enemy placement throughly, chiefly for gameplay balance but also for technical restrictions. The limitations only became even tighter in the move to 3D and alleviated somewhat with 3D accelerators like voodoo

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>>387207535
Honestly I just want a good, nervous arcady shooter with health bars like Enemy Territory
I'm tired of tedious ironsight pixel-hunting slugfests and of CS clones
Fuck Dirty Bomb

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Why does the right side of the room look so happy while the left side looks so depressed?

>>387207514
I can understand the hardware limitations and such, but it doesn't explain away how level design became arena-hallway based in all these modern-oldschool FPS games.

Quake and even Quake 2 still had open levels you could traverse (somewhat) freely rather than being railroaded down paths between arenas to the end. Hell Quake 2 even let you revisit older areas if you wanted to and had something of a free-to-traverse map going with metroidvania get-this-item-to-proceed doors.
They definitely did have their arena moments with enemies that spawned in every now and then but there was still a map to explore and secrets to find rather than being funneled down a path to the exit/boss.

>>387204774
>By the way, this ultimate god created some new levels for original Doom in his spare time last year (for the first time in 20+ years) and it's objectively better designed than all of Nu-Doom in its entirety, unironically. Suck it down.

Links?

>>387208427
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2x2ee3r51986dkt/e1m8b.zip?dl=0

>>387205697
>middle school shooters

actually, it was a high school *cough*

>>387206458
>During the 80s and 90s, games were about being challenging, to that point that a game could brag about how challenging it is as a selling point.

Honestly how can anyone be surprised about this not sticking? Challenge is nice and all but should it really be the main selling point of a game?

>>387206418
What kind of school shooters are you talking about?

>>387208026

left side is probably the people that had to code all the shit and constantly shift to the next carmack leftover engine

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>>387211697
ones with a diverse roster

>>387204774
Are there any good indie fps games?

>>387204774
Not economically viable
Look at all the new arena shootans that are utter stillbirths because nostalgiafriends are few and don't actually play new things

>>387204774
Shooters are the only genre that have actually made positive progress, when you take away all the copying from COD of course.

>+100

>>387205951
this statement is objectively wrong

Romero's new levels were too easy t b h.

>>387206665
Fuck of Gareth

>>387211251

Well designed challenge is fun, which is the point of any game. Any game is ultimately some sort of challenge to accomplish a goal within the confines of a set of rules.

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>>387208026
Romero projects happiness, while his evil brother arch nemesis projects despair

>>387213092
>90's FPS
>Multiplayer

Then those people are missing the point. 90's FPS and Arena Shooters are two different genres with two entirely different focuses.

>>387213585
Nobody is going to make a 2.5d sprite shootan game in the 2017th year since the Birth of our Lord, don't kid yourself

>>387213585
>the birthplace of fragging deathmatches

they were one and the same anon, you're a hipster newfag

>>387204774
Yes, OP, they don't understand your specific, nostalgia-addled mental idealization of what and how shooter "should be", because no-one does (least of all, I'd wager, you when you'd be tasked to design your ideal game), and guess what, nobody cares because every fan has their own little fantasy concept of "the perfect 90s shooter" and trying to cater to all of those is futile.

Here's a better question: how did Id back in the day push out THAT many games?

>>387213768
>>387213747
Multiplayer existed, but it wasn't popular until Quake 2.

All you need to do is look at the number of people playing DOOM .wads compared to the number playing multiplayer. People prefer single-player FPS over multiplayer. Go ask DOOM general in /vr/.

If single-player FPS weren't popular, games like nu-Wolfenstein wouldn't have sold so well.

>>387214079
Romero was literally too addicted to DOOM multiplayer to work on Quake, whole enterprises sprouted up just to serve doom and quake multiplayer

>>387213092
>Nobody cares about single player FPS, they only care about multiplayer!

http://steamcommunity.com/stats/379720/achievements/

>Finish the entire single player campaign.
>25.5%
>Win just one match of multiplayer.
>20%

hmmmm

>>387208026
>left = programmers
>right = designers

>>387214918
who are you quoting

>>387215026
The person I quoted, of course. Click on the red numbers!

These silly gooses that want to imply single player FPS don't sell, when in reality single-player draws more player attention than the multiplayer ever does.

>>387215316
But I can't find anything even resembling the idea of that quote you made up, anon

>>387204891
there's the 0.001% of indie games that are focused around fun not profits

>>387206273
Spoken like a true braindead socialist who will never climb the ladder and blame it on "the man"

>>387215467
>But I can't find anything even resembling the idea of that quote you made up, anon
There aren't many people brave enough to openly admit that they failed elementary school

>>387217240
Alright anon, I'll have to be frank
My post was not about single vs multiplayer at all
I did not claim anything about people preferring single player fps
You skimmed over my post and created an idealized version of it in your head so that you could insert your pre-fabricated argument
You'll have to read posts properly in the future and stop that silly strawman thing you've got going

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>>387217326
That's not me, dingus. I stopped replying when I saw the thread was dead and that you were trying to be an evasive faggot. Plus there's another 90's FPS thread up anyway.

Point remains, OP posted about single-player FPS and you immediately responded with "It's not viable" and listed only multiplayer arena shooters as examples. Silly!

>>387217582
>maked up arguments to argue against while attributing them to a specific person
>calls other silly
I'm on /v/ alright

>>387205047
This. True shooters can only be played with a keyboard, maybe a mouse if you're a girl.

>>387207079
Why is Carmack so smug all the time?

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>>387218019
>*rear view mirror activated*

>>387204774
Because map design is not the responsibility of a game designer anymore, but the responsibility of "artists". Map design was an inherent part of gameplay before.

>>387204774
Because they're trying to sell something, not give away something barely anybody wants for free.

>>387206418
Mature games for mature people eh?

>>387204774
I played those recent romero levels and can confirm they're very good. It was refreshing to notice good level design instead of the environment just being a background you walk through.

>>387213060
Ziggurat?

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>>387207031
>Strafe turned out to be a shitty proc.gen rogue-lite with no clear focus and more back-stepping than actual fucking strafing
>Dusk is looking mediocre as fuck and is banking so hard on old-school nostalgia points that it's ripping from FPS games that thematically clash for the sake of "HEY REMEMBER THESE GREAT GAMES THAT WE'RE TRYING TO EMULATE?"
>Literally ripping off the ethereal crossbow from Heretic, same color of the bolts and everything
>Crappy Quake-style low-poly graphics and it'll probably have a limited color palette as well
>Dev had no prior mapping experience and the first maps he showed were bland corridor maps
I'm expecting it to flop after a week. You can't just bank on nostalgia and mashing elements from old games together that don't even thematically work together.

>>387204891
>video games are now an industry about profits first, not a small team creating their vision of a game with fun and gameplay first.
>and they never will be again.

I think it can happen. But it'll have to take place outside the boundries of AAA publishing.

>>387208271

go here and check out mods

>>387204774
because they and their publishers only want money.

>>387220952
What about it doesn't "work thematically"? The weapons, enemy and level designs all have a clear redneck cult style. The only things that stick out that Ive seen were the secrets like the sword and shit. The maps werent corridors if anything they are a bit too open.

>>387204774
In bloated nu-games, you need a dozen of people finish the level, modeling, texturing, scripting, adding all kinds of shit. If you decide that this corridor should be shaped this way instead, you're fucked, because you have to do all that shit to make that corridor. In doom you can just redraw the corridor, and maybe take a few more minutes to redo the details. You could do this hours before the game ships. The more bloated a production becomes, the more the freedom of design suffers. Romero should know this all too well

>>387204774
>Why do modern developers struggle so hard to grasp the concept of "old school" FPS?
What makes you think they care in the first place? Only devs trying to make old school fps are garbage tier indie hacks, selling overpriced shitty dated "retro" hipster looking games. Actual modern devs wouldn't throw money on dated concepts just to appeal to a small niche, every classic shooter that came after the early 00s was garbage anyway with Doom 3 and Quake 4 being the worst offenders.

>By the way, this ultimate god created some new levels for original Doom in his spare time last year (for the first time in 20+ years) and it's objectively better designed than all of Nu-Doom in its entirety, unironically. Suck it down.
Doom 2016 is the perfect example of how a modern shooter should be made and you're a fucking retard for trying to bash it by comparing it to anything made for classic Doom, Doom 2016 is suppposed to compete against modern shooters and it did a great job at that, it has the best level design in a shooter probably since early 2000s, far better than Quake 4s and deffinitely better than the pile of shit that was Doom 3, but of couse, contrarian nostalgia tards would rather bash the new game because it doesn't play exactly like Doom, even if its a better game than every game that tries hard to be like Doom.

>>387224742
tl;dr - aaa devs are only interested in pandering to the average casual

>>387225101
aaa devs pander to people who plays and buys games, not to retards who are stuck in the past.

>>387205260
Nah, he pulled it out because he wanted to have more to show to make people believe he is not a scam trying to ride with his name and make you his bitch. Very honorable imo.