Are we ever getting an official Sonic game in the style of Utopia?

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It doesn't take a genius to figure it out: Sonic Team is simply a bad studio. They steep themselves in flawed design philosophies and refuse to change or learn or grow. The most constructive thing they ever did was go from Sonic Adventure format to Boost format, which didn't actually solve anything at all.

Why is 3D Mario good while 3D Sonic is bad? It's as simple as: Because Nintendo EAD is good while Sonic Team is bad.

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Green Hill Paradise Act 2 is another great example of how to do Sonic 3D, and also completely fan made.

>>387160157

Pretty much this.

>>387159741
They were clearly trying to with the beta Windy Valley, but they dropped it.

I think a few reasons, difficulty, budget, time, hardware constraints, and probably a fear that a player could miss out on most of the experience if they are given a giant open world.

>>387160157
Mario also changed up its base formula far more when it made the jump to 3D than Sonic did.

>>387160396
>great
Ehhhh....

>>387160547

>a fear that a player could miss out on most of the experience if they are given a giant open world

Super Mario 64 had been out for a few years when this entered development, and Banjo Kazooie was also released months before Adventure 1. There were enough 3D games out by 1998 that they could see what would and wouldn't work.

The problem was focusing on cinematic elements and writing, without trying to reformulate the basic design principle of the game. They simply tried to recreate the essence of the original games with visual stimuli instead of looking at the game's design.

>>387160870

For a fanmade game it's pretty impressive. Imagine having a triple A studio behind something like that.

>>387161061
But the player didn't fast, so their worlds were not AS big as Utopia's or Green Hill Paradise. In these smaller areas with far less emphasis on momentum it is easier to craft an experience for the player.

>>387161556

Indeed, but they obviously should have designed maps with fast movement in mind, but adapting the open-ended structure of those games. Remember that being open and having multiple paths was a core part of the original 2D sonic games. The way to translate this to 3D is not "take the right path or take the left path in this on rail segment", but to make an expansive map that features multiple objectives, like the N64 platformers often did. What they did was simply make 2D levels with some slight horizontal movement, much like we see in >>387160157

The Knuckle stages are usually kinda like this, but they have some problems of their own that make them not as fun as the Sonic stages, namely the fact that shard hunting is pretty boring.

>>387161139
Impressive is not the same as good. Speaking honestly, Sonic Utopia is a great prototype of how to do Sonic in 3D. Green Hill Paradise Ace 2 is a bad prototype of how to do Sonic in 3D. It's sloppy and janky like a Sonic Team game with a weird slime of amateurishness blemishing the whole thing. I mean, yeah it's better than pretty much every 3D Sonic game, but it sorta proves nothing other than how that Sonic Advance gimmick of having a "fast state" isn't beneficial or fun for a Sonic game done in a physics-based open-ended style. Good example of how not to name something though.

>>387161968

Oh, I agree completely. Utopia is a much better example, my point is simply that GHP is another example of how Sonic works better in that type of environment than with linear levels. It definitely suffers from jankiness and other Sonic Team games' problems, like the game awkwardly grinding to a halt whenever you lose speed and try to do some platforming. Utopia's level design is entirely based around letting you keep running even if you take the "wrong" path, with its wall ramps and convenient loops and curves in the terrain.

Something that would greatly help a game like this in my opinion would be a dedicated button for ground pound, so you could immediately land, making platforming segments less of a pain and much quicker, and a dedicated spindash button, like Utopia does.

Sonic Team is pure shit that's why. I hope Forces bombs hard so that we can get a new era and stop with this autistic style over substance shit for autistic 1999- born morons.

Sonic Team is a developer with the quality of studio that only shits out liscensed games, the only caveat being that they have Sonic.

Hopefully the bring in whoever made Utopia and like they did with Christian Whitehead and crew.

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>>387161139
>Sonic Team
>AAA

How come people consider linearity in a 3D platformer to be bad? There are plenty of 3D platformers that are above average that have a linear focus and there are platformers with a focus on exploation that aren't above average as well.

>>387159741
>It's like the opposite of what happened to Mario.

There are four 3D Marios that Nintendo themselves consider to have a linear focus.

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>>387160157
fixed 4 you

>>387163109
There's a whole genre dedicated to Linear 3D Sonic Games. It's called Racing.

>>387163109
What's the point of having it in 3D at all if it's going to be linear?
3D platformers are always uncomfortable to control, with the stick. The camera is worse. And it's hard to judge distance. 2D platformers offer everything 3D platformers do when it comes to gameplay. The only exceptions are the added difficulties of moving your thumb in the right angle (frustrating control aspect), a camera that doesn't let you see what you want, and ambigious locations for goals and enemies. None of which are fun additional challenges in a platformer. The only reason to make linear 3D platformers would be to sell more, because people consider 2D outdated. From a gameplay perspective, they are inferior in every way.

If you are going to make a 3D platformer, the only way to go is making it open. That adds an experience you don't get in 2D.

>>387163623

I agree in parts. I'm sure people can make a 3D linear platformer work, I wouldn't say "never do it", but only do it if you have a really good reason for it to be linear, and if it's better than just going pure 2D.

The crash games were pretty good, for example, but they're an early example of how linear 3D is an outdated concept. Spyro for example outdid Crash in every way in the gameplay area.

>>387162523
Utopia won't work without giving Sonic mission based objectives beyond just getting to the goal.

All you would do is combine a lot of the same stuff from Sonic Adventure but make it one character rather than 6.

>>387160157
It's EPD now

>>387159741
Utopia looked like ass though. Why would you think a giant, empty sandbox would be fun to play?

The Sonic World fangame is as close as we are ever getting to a good 3D sonic game.

>>387163109

The problem with 3D Sonic stages aren't that they're linear. It's that they're rigidly linear. Most 3D stages are nothing more than winding rectangular corridors floating over a death pit, usually riddled with boost pads or scripted sequences to push you through any remotely interesting geometry. There's almost no interesting platforming or real use of 3D space. Any attempts at exploration or hidden secrets are tacked on at best. Replayability takes a hit because of how similar each run is.
I don't think 3D Sonic has to be open-level to be good but as it stands the current standard for levels in 3D Sonic games are so boring.

>>387162735
Here's an example


Mania.

>>387164283
Because they are course clear 3D games.
You see similar stuff in 3D World/Land.

The best thing Sonic could do is to learn from the Galaxy games, which were course clear with a good degree of exploration...which is why I think Lost World feels like huge wasted potential since SEGA lost faith in the core mechanics even though they were stellar.

I think the game was great outside of some horrific gimmick levels which throw the gameplay completely out the window.

To make a good 3D sonic game rotate everything in a 2D sonic game 90 degrees. What I mean by this is, instead of vertical exploration, encourage horizontal exploration.

The central path is straightforward, the right path is low, the left path is a high path. Follow these rules, and alternate between right and left being high and low paths. Low paths reward you with items and special stages. High paths reward you with Speed. Middle paths reward you with some of both.

>>387163973
The only Mario game Nintendo EPD has released is the mobile game.

>>387164735
That's Sonic Lost World.

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>>387159741
>>387160396
See the thing that pisses me off about people saying we should get a 3D game like GHP2 or Utopia is that those are not games, they are tech demos with no rela gameplay except exploring. If you're someone who has spent years playing with Sonic's physics in sandboxes it's easy to forget this, but they have no appeal to an average player outside of maybe like an hour of exploring.

How do you properly introduce obstacles without allowing the player to just freely run around the side of them?

How do you ensure that each place the player can fall off a ramp actually leads some place else? And that the player remembers which direction they are supposed to be going in all this?

Hell how do you even have a gameplay objective besides "find a hidden exit or emerald tucked away in this giant maze?"

The more you try to take these demos and make a workable game level with a clear objective, challenging obstacles and player undesirability, the more you get closer to... Sonic Adventure 1. The game you claim to hate.

>>387163919

That's not bad at all. Having objectives like freeing all the animals (which would give defeating enemies a bit more purpose in the 3D world), collect rings, reach specific checkpoints, find hidden caves like the ones in Utopia, etc.

It would bring back the map exploration aspect of the old sonic games, collecting enough rings and then looking for checkpoints so you'd be able to reach the special stages, instead of them being just a respawn location. That is, in a very basic form, a mini-mission: instead of just reaching the goal, you're trying to collect stuff and then go to specific parts of the stage so you can get a reward (the emeralds); it's a primitive but similar way to how 3D platformers use their open-ended maps.

>>387164890
Classic Sonic in those games plays similar to Adventure 1 but with less air friction.

>>387164651
>.which is why I think Lost World feels like huge wasted potential since SEGA lost faith in the core mechanics even though they were stellar.

I feel the same way. Lost World deserved a lot more than what it got.

>>387164890
I meant "player understandibility", I guess I fucked up by letting Chrome spellcheck it

>>387164890
Why wouldn't Sonic work with an open world sandbox game?
I feel almost all of the problems can be mitigated with that.

Heck I would argue Tails works too if you implement a fall damage.

>>387164890

The answer to all those quiestions is: good game design. A good game designer knows how to find solutions for all those problems.

>playing with Sonic's physics in sandboxes it's easy to forget this, but they have no appeal to an average player outside of maybe like an hour of exploring.

I beg to differ. I think a lot of people would love to explore well designed map while playing with sonic's speed, like in Utopia.

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>>387159741
>>387160396
There is already a full retail game in the style of Utopia and Green Hill Paradise ya dinguses. It even has classic Sonic physics

>>387164890

>The more you try to take these demos and make a workable game level with a clear objective, challenging obstacles and player undesirability, the more you get closer to... Sonic Adventure 1. The game you claim to hate.

No, Sonic Adventure 1 has almost no exploration, you're just constantly being pushed forward. If you try to actually explore the levels and do something the game doesn't expect you to do, the game starts shitting itself and drowning on its own jankiness and broken camera.

>>387165334
So I'm not the only one who has thought that momentum based 3D platformers should look at skating games

They need some adjustment because skateboard games are built around getting scores to a large degree, but I believe there's a lot to learn from them.
Have high speed, and you can jump higher walls, maybe allowing you to reach a higher rail giving you a different path.

>>387165334
To be fair that is a brilliant mode, if Sonic was built out of the Tony Hawk mold, then you could provide a challenge through objectives and time limits.

You also provide a reason to bring back Sonic's friends, even if they have their own differences.

>>387164780
No they fucked that up with tubular levels,

>>387167537
But that's pretty much what you are asking for.

>>387167741
No, what crack are you even smoking?

>>387164890
>with no rela gameplay except exploring.
Yes and? put a real timer one, place a flag at the end or points and/or interest around the level. Boom you got a game

>just freely run around the side of them?
Shocking twist, what if that is in fact an option and you are rewarded for trying weird shit

>How do you ensure that each place the player can fall off a ramp actually leads some place else
Because they aren't falling into a black hole where they can't get out of

> And that the player remembers
Because they aren't a 1 year old child, plus just a marker or even mini map if needs be

>Hell how do you even have a gameplay objective besides "find
Why would it need more? Go from X to Y for arbitrary reasons cause doing so is fun

> clear objective, challenging obstacles and player undesirability, the more you get closer to... Sonic Adventure 1
I dislike sonic adventure cause it has bad physics, very straight forward levels, boring characters outside sonic, horrible animation, bad voice acting and is a glitchy mess. And even then I enjoy fucking about in it.

>>387165334
>>387165580
>that momentum based 3D platformers should look at skating games
I actually came up with a similar idea like that mixing jet set radio and sonic.

>>387164735
But how does this actually work? In 2D Sonic games, the high path is usually a faster, more rewarding path with more risk associated with it, while the low path is where you end up if you make constant errors, and can be difficult to escape from, at least with any sort of permanence.

The reason both of those paths are the way they are is because of gravity. Sonic is a platformer, his primary tool is jumping. If your only action is to jump, then it becomes clear that jumping up to get higher is advantageous, and failing to jump over holes will punish you. If you can just swing left and right and go wherever like you suggest, then it abandons any mechanical resemblance to 2D Sonic's vertical level design.

It's also a bizarre decision because it suggests that 3D games are somehow not able to pull off verticality.

>>387168126
>open world with some arbitrary goal point and "points of interest"
>being able to ignore structure and designed obstacles is good because freedom and "options"
>use markers and minimaps as bandaid solutions for level design issues

absolute cancer

>>387168469
That is only really true of 2. 3&K, CD and it seems mania encourage you to go all about the place

>>387159741
>I don't get why Sonic went from expansive, secret filled levels you could explore and play with in the 2D games to the linear, cinematic on-rails experience that the 3D games are.
Because, a in a 2D space, you are limited to only 4 directions, left, right, up down. You ever get lost in a level, you only need to keep going right and you will finish the stage. In 3D huge levels like Utopia run the risk of of you getting lost and not knowing where to go or getting distracted because you no longer have just one direction to go in to complete the stage. SA1 and 2 was basically as expansive as any 3D Sonic level should get, maybe even 06 if you actually bother to fill that space.

>>387168715
Those games do offer rewards for exploring lower parts of the level, but the higher path is still inherently, and by design, more difficult to reach and maintain. For a reason, too. Even S3&K would occasionally bait you with a special stage and then trick you into falling down a hole with no idea how to get back up to where your prize was.

>>387168656
>>open world with some arbitrary goal point and "points of interest"
Yes, like what good sonic has always been. Getting from point to point should be the fun part, it shouldn't matter what those points are.

>because freedom and "options"
Yeah how terrible, people being inventive and learning how to use the system being rewarded? Awful, the game should be rigid and only allow intended fun with cinematic angles.

> bandaid solutions for level design issues
Did you ignore the part when I said only babies need it? I'm just saying if they had to cause people are so stupid these days.If you played utopia it doesn't really need it and that wasn't even a proper attempt at polished level design.

>>387168935
>In 3D huge levels like Utopia run the risk of of you getting lost and not knowing where to go or getting distracted because you no longer have just one direction to go in to complete the stage.

That is a design flaw, not a trait inherent in 3D maps. Getting to know the map and familiarize yourself with waypoints is a staple of exploration.

> SA1 and 2 was basically as expansive as any 3D Sonic level should get

That's just wrong.

Objective based 3D Sonic is something that would be perfect.

Super Mario 64 often had a peak to climb that the level was structured around.
I'm thinking that it might be the right idea. You need some landmark that's easily visible from many parts of the level to know where you are.

But Sonic should go fast, so I think basic level design should be a bowl, or maybe a few, surrounding a central point. A bowl gives a good overview of many parts of the level, and you can go fast while knowing much about what's in front, and it's more difficult to get lost.
This is only the main layout covering everything, the bowl could be filled with land shapes and enemies.

>>387168935
>In 3D huge levels like Utopia run the risk of of you getting lost
Only if the level was seriously winding. Otherwise going any direction but forward it would be obvious that you were coming across shit you saw.

That is only if the level is a path, I think a Mario 64 (but much bigger than even sunshine) style area which you run around would work nicely

>>387169510
Except Sonic is a game about exploration, is a game about getting to from point A to B. Multiple paths in the way they were implemented even in the 2D games were just simple 2 second distractions in which you may be rewarded for your efforts or they were another way of reaching the goal. This is how they should always be in a Sonic game, nothing like how they are in Sonic Utopia in which there is no real directions.

>>387169261
The goal point in good Sonic games is the right of the screen. Even in the twistier levels that have you go in multiple directions, your ultimate goal is to move to the right, and every path leads there. There is a difference between one, two, three, six paths that all lead to the same goal with better players being able to take the fastest among them, and an open world where you don't know where the end of the stage is, wander around until you find it, and tons of "paths" lead nowhere. Chances are, once you know where the exit is, nothing will prevent you from taking the three-dimensionally fastest route, straight from where you are to where the exit is, because the stage has been spread wide for no reason other than obfuscating the goal rather than challenging the player to keep their footing.

Well designed and structured obstacles are always better for platformers than being open for the sake of being open. There is no inventiveness when it comes to circumventing something in an open world game or stage, especially one where you move as fast as Sonic and scaling walls isn't even an issue. This is why actual enemies have become so utterly trivial in 3D mario games and hazards that assault the player during bottlenecks or instantly punish missed jumps have replaced them. In a physics-based Sonic game with no pits, not even hazards can hinder you.

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>>387159741
Sonic Team, on top of generally being incompetent, lost all knowledge of how to create Sonic's pinball-y physics back before Adventure happened when Genesis-era staff left, and the runners/boost2win and skin-deep nostalgia they've had to settle for will still sell just as much anyways. Not sure how Advance came to be though.

They have no incentive to even try it, and Japan giving a mainline title's reigns to foreigners who actually know how (i.e. Mania) is about as fat of a chance as the Freedom Fighters/Boom cast showing up in main-canon and the Yakuza's wageslaves abandoning all their weeb-appeals in nip media.

Just be happy SoJ, through their seething-hot angry teeth, let SoA be open and kind to ROMhackers and fan-content instead of going full-Nintendo or Disney on them. Also hoping Utopia goes on and doesn't end up like Fan Remix.

>>387169680
>>387169961

Landmarks exist for a reason. If you're a good level designer, people won't get lost in your stage.

>>387170054

>Except Sonic is a game about exploration, is a game about getting to from point A to B

Mario was too, but they knew that would transition badly into 3D, so they changed up the formula.

Sonic always had huge levels with tons of secrets, hidden checkpoints and bonus stages that rewarded exploration. They had the most expansive level design for a platformer back when they were released.

>>387170243

Again, you're doing exactly what Sonic Team did: thinking that the 2D games have to LITERALLY translate into 3D. They were "go from A to B" because that's how games were made back then, what made sonic different was it speed and momentum, its physics-based level design, and it's multiple routes, all of which could easily be translated into a good 3D game without it having to be about "going from A to B".

Seeing a power up way high on a rock and looking around for routes which will give me enough speed and air to reach it in Utopia is 100% more like what it was like to try and reach power-ups in the 2D sonic games than anything Adventure made me feel.

>>387170243
>and an open world where you don't know where the end of the stage is,
You've taken this from just reeee open world bad to now being that person who needs the mini map. And really it is not an issue, you explore till you find an exit which is fine cause the exploration should be fun. Was it just the idea of open will that made you all moody? cause really it is just large levels

Plus you missed the whole idea of multiple objectives

>Well designed and structured obstacles are always better
No, that completely depends on what you are looking to achieve. You act like you can't have good design in a large map and that old sonic didn't let you blast past obstacles if you knew what you were doing

>There is no inventiveness when it comes to circumventing something in an open world game
So using the physics to fly over something you shouldn't is not inventiveness? Then Sonic was never inventive apparently. You are also acting like every player will instantly break it all, even utopia with the unpolished levels doesn't have that but I'm sure someone who invests enough time will do something crazy which is good. People who get deep in should get rewarded

>>387170805
>If you're a good level designer, people won't get lost in your stage.
You have too much faith in man

>>387170740
Many of the original staff were involved with Sonic Adventure.

>>387170740
>>387171028

Are the advance games really that good? The only portable sonic I played was Rush Adventure, which had pretty good 2D levels but I couldn't handle the mini-games and all the "plot"

>>387171101
Advance 1 is great, but has some major issues keeping it from being on the level of Sonic 2/3. I would always play it over Sonic 1 or CD.

Sonic Advance 2 is Rush without the boost, and it is pretty bad.

Sonic Advance 3 kind of feels like a hybrid of classic and Rush due to its robust partner system which essentially let's you craft your own playstyle; however, this leads to really jumbled level design to take advantage of it.

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>>387171336
>Sonic Advance 2 is Rush without the boost, and it is pretty bad.
>implying going fast in that didnt feel more fluid than rush
>playable charcters with different ways to get around routes
>controls better than SA1 and SA3
fuck you.

>>387171101

Advance 1 is a fairly tame genesis like with more characters and more moves for characters. It's the most faithful of the three to the classics and a great little handheld game that does it right.

Advance 2 and 3 shifted it into maximum overfast and gimmicky, huge winding levels that feel somewhat empty. Advanced 2 has a super momentum mechanic that's suited more to 3D than a 2D game and the worst fucking way to enter a special stage. Advance 3 has a buddy system and small hub layered on top of it where you can mix and match tons of abilities together, which is neat since there are a ton of combinations. That is until you discover most of them are shit or broken.

>>387165334
SO HERE I AM!

>>387163623
>What's the point of having it in 3D at all if it's going to be linear?
this is like every game out there

>>387159741
Literally no one cares about Sonic Utopia.

Sonic should've been translated into 3d in style only, not level design.
For example, having multiple paths that connect at many points isn't impossible.
The homing attack also helped killing enemies flow and feel a lot more natural as just jumping wouldn't work so well in 3d.
Speed ramps and bumpers were done well at first in a way that you could miss them and they weren't required.
The spindash was a good way to gain speed without overdoing it like the boost that replaced it and translated arguably well to 3d.
By far, the most important thing needed is consistent level design, which 3d sonic has never had.
For as much shit as it gets, Sonic Adventure did a good job with most of these things and added nice bonuses to change the pace, all it needed was more robust physics and superior sonic levels

Prove me wrong
Protip: You can't.

>>387172540
I think Sonic Lost World started out with good level design too.

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You're all delusional fucking idiots. I want to find everyone in this thread and brutally beat the shit out of you until you finally get it. As it stands you're all deluded beyond belief and so far detached from reality. I want to fucking beat you guys up so bad.. fuck.... I hate letting evil have it's way... It pains me to let evil have its way....

>>387168349
That's basically the premise of Hover and it's a tedious mess.

>>387160157
contrary to popular belief, Sonic Team IS NOT a studio
it's a brand with several teams using it
the Sonic Team logo is just here for marketing

>>387173871
Sit down fat ass

>>387174663
Quickly looking it up on Youtube, that doesn't look like that at all. Seems there is no height difference or jumping, and it's just completely different from what I was imagining

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>>387173871

holy shit

>>387174663

More like Glover, which was awesome.

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>>387171101
Put it this way: if Advance 1 had twice the levels, A2's bossfights, A3's chooseable teammate-system/cast, Rush's bestcat and RA's occasional oceanbiking challenges but harder, it'd be right next to 2 and 3&K as best Sanic game IMHO.

Otherwise Advance 2 was just holdright2win, and Rush started the boost2win bullshit.

>>387165334
reminder that Sonic Adventure was supposed to have a skateboarding spinoff on the GCN but it got canned

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>>387164753
once Tezuka unveiled his 2D Mario project beating NSMB, Mr. Taxman can go eat his heart out.

>>387160157
>Nintendo EAD is good
kek

>>387174857
Funny thing is you're all the fat asses and I'm the jock chad.

>>387172540
>For as much shit as it gets, Sonic Adventure did a good job

I almost half-agreed with your points, then you kept talking. Also open-ended pinball-ish focus and non-railed design are still integral aspects that should've really been kept instead of taking the 90% straight-racer approach.

>>387171101
Advance 1 if you like Classic-ish gameplay. Treat it as Sonic Adventure on-to-go, it even has Chao Garden.
Advance 2 if you want that speed-based gameplay from Sonic 2
Advance 3 if you're some chump that loved both Knuckles Chaotix and CD mostly
Battle is pure sonikino and way better than The Fighters
Pinball Party is just another pinball game but the GBA'ified OST what makes it pretty decent

>>387159741
>>387160396
Open world tech demos do not have any meaningful gameplay
They fulfill sonic autist's dreams of self insert running fast in a colorful world but literally nothing more

>>387176981
>Battle is pure sonikino and way better than The Fighters
Battle is a broken piece of shit that's not even busted in a fun way.

ITT: Classicucks continue their assault on the ebil 3D Sonic games since Sonic Adventure

>>387177114
>is a broken piece of shit that's not even busted in a fun way.
hey hey nobody's talking about your poor romhack of Fighting Vipers

if i could, i'd take Honey out of that game and put her into Battle where she won't be associated with bad fighting game gameplay.

Mario 64 was shit, 2D Sonic fags need to stop looking as a base of superiority . when it fits the same argument of aging poorly as man Retro Sonic fags claim Sonic Adventure out for.

>>387177374
except you can play SM64 without getting flung to your death by a broken scripted path

>>387177296
>Sonic Battle
>All characters have 3 moves at best and were clearly slapped together in a few minutes
>One button infinites exist
>Shadow can remain invincible for the entire fucking match by holding down a button
Sonic Battle is quite literally a broken proof of concept fighting game engine that was shamelessly shit out as a finished game.

>>387177467
too bad it's still not fun to play. squirrel controls and all.

>>387177631

Your opinion is not only NOT a fact, but also shit.

utopia looks really empty. why would you want that

>>387177764
>my opinion
what of it? everyone in here is expressing their opinion.

>>387177826
Classicucks

>>387178002

>being a fan of the 3D games
>classic someone else a cuck

>>387178061
Jokes on you, i enjoy both. but it's not my fault classicfans are a special type of degenerate that belongs in AOL-era internet.

>>387165110
I got this UE4 project, a simple flight sim / sanic wallrunner concept, the idea is collecting energy/ammo/buffs to stay moving, where thrusting up to fly costs more energy than surfing up walls, already figured out some tricky parts like networking and the math for sticking to surfaces, the flight part is hard to get right without an being overly complex flight sim, as the game would mainly be an arcade shooter with a twist. Gotta finalize the flying code before I design maps and have an alpha </logged>

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>Hotwheels tracks for legs

>>387179034

You described every sonic game. We're discussing how to make it work without turning into a jumbled mess.

>>387178432

It's not that people are too attached to the 2D games, it's just that they realize the 3D games are shit.

Sonic isn't even in my top 20 games of all time, I just like discussing the design of the games.

>>387179235
You're a fucking dumb idiot. You're not smart at all.

>>387180221

>3D sonic fans are autistic children

No surprise there

>>387177626
>>387177296
Should I try playing this again? I loved it when I was younger but I tried going back to Heroes a couple days ago and what a fucking hot mess. Gave up on the casino stage.

>>387181109
Honestly I normally see people talking about Heroes like it's among the better 3D Sonic games, but fucking Shadow the Hedgehog holds up better.

>>387181109
It's pretty shit, but feel free to figure it out for yourself. The game's problems are pretty self evident from the get go

>>387181109

It's more repetitive than broken, really. It's not as janky/broken as SA2, as in the gameplay feels more organic, but you'll be doing the same things over and over until the end multiple times, repeating stages with the different teams, etc.

>>387177214
>stupid gaijin/goyim stop having opinions!

>mfw the closest idea of how levels should be in 3d was fucking Sonic Heroes

Despite the problems with the gamplay and shit forced story into some cutscenes, and... robots with helth bars, the levels had the right idea(except for grindland zones).
Zones had paths, not just going right or left, paths were actually their own thing not connected to some "main path" or close to it(Metropolis is the better example). Some had shortcuts too, but Adventure 1 did that better like for example Red Mountain.
In the boost era few did that, like Generations with Seaside Hill, or some in Unleashed like that Empire City day stage. But it didn't escape the silly things ST likes to do with "use rails and there, a path", or "homing attack 5 robots to get to another path".

https://archiveofourown.org/works/11798901

http://archiveofourown.org/works/11778270

>>387181246
I played all the dreamcast era sonics for the first time as an adult and I have to agree. I'd call Shadow a mediocre game overall - which is to say, it's far better than the meme awful status lots of people give it because of the excessive edginess, and arguably on par with the adventure games in some aspects

>>387177626
>>Shadow can remain invincible for the entire fucking match by holding down a button
this is as bad as someone saying Wolf is a clone and only fought with specials in a fucking Smash game.

once after you KO a character even once in a match, they'll start autoguarding forcing you to use another strategy.

no way in hell you can win a match by just spamming Roaming Chaos or Chaos Burst. Shadow only got his merits by his overpowered air dash and his Heavy Attack

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>>387183498

>Rape/Non-con
>Part 1 of The Sonic the Sissyhog Trilogy

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>>387183498

>Gloryhole Zone: Act 1

>>387183816
Adventure is as broken as Heroes, if not more, but Adventure 2 does stand out as a good game

>>387184515
Omni came up with that one.

>>387184785

I will never understand how people can say that. I have both games on Dreamcast, and I feel without a doubt that Adventure 1 plays much better than 2.

Adventure 1 has much better stages and the gameplay feels much more fluid, while SA2 feels much jankier and slippery, the story goes ABSOLUTELY bonkers (even though SA1 isn't much better) and everything that isn't a Sonic/Shadow level is boring as fuck.

SA1 is not a good game, but it feels much nicer to play than 2.

While I do enjoy the boost type gameplay for what it is the general movement fro adventure was always better imo and after playing Utopia nothing else quite compares

>>387183006
You're a nigger.

>>387185303
I disagree, Adventure 2 is a lot more polished and plays much better. Also there's less characters, which makes it less boring.

That said, I only played Adventure DX on PC and Adventure 2 Battle on the GC, I dunno how different they are from the originals.

I like the plot on both, even if they suffer from terrible voice acting and direction

>>387164890
Mario 64 went through a lengthy process of simply tweaking his movement mechanics so that he was fun to play. That's what projects like these are focusing on first. At least in Utopia's case, the level is purely there to give players a playground to play around with the movement mechanics.

>>387185536

Oh, I think DX has a lot of hit collison and gameplay problems, from what I remember. Try to get it running on NullDC if you have a gamepad and judge for yourself. SA2 also plays better on DC.

The games don't become instantly good or anything, but they feel much better on the DC, at least to me.

What are the best versions of the Adventure games? I skipped straight to Heroes and that game sucks.

>>387185704
Its called prototyping and that's basically what utopia is just a little more polished up

>>387185796
1. GameCube versions of both
2. 2004 PC release of SADX and PC release of SA2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiB80b1QZ4M

>>387185907
>>387185796

The Dreamcast version looks worse, but plays better. The GameCube ports feel a bit jankier, it's a lot harder to control Sonic.

SEGA just didn't know what to do with their franchises, they either died while being good like Jet Set Radio or became shit not only like Sonic but like Golden Axe too, anyone remember that game for PS3?

SEGA seems to be back on their tracks now, Sonic Mania, Yakuza, Alien Isolation, etc. but unless Sonic Forces turns out to be alright somehow 3D Sonic will still be shit

>>387184785
>Adventure 2 does stand out as a good game
How? Only one third of the game is arguably good. The treasure hunting levels are shit for more reasons than a worth mentioning here, and the mech levels are literally just "run down this corridor, shoot enemies at the end to unlock the door to the next corridor with enemies at the end etc"

>>387184105
I'm not referencing that you fucking moron
Shadow has a special in which he teleports and reappears with an explosion. The Teleport can be held down infinitely for infinite stalling.

>>387164632
Sonic Team didn't make Mania.

>>387186092
That's really surprising considering how much I love Sonic Adventure DX.

you know it's funny that mario went full-on exploration when moving to 3d, because I feel like sonic would have been a much better fit for it.

>>387183006
I wouldn't say it's the closest, but it definitely had the right idea, since it emphasized platforming way more than SA1/2. Problem was that it was constant highway-in-the-sky levels and what alternate paths there were were few and far between. What it did do right was blending speed and platforming, that allowed skilled players can get through tight platforming areas without slowing down.

>>387164632
How retarded can you possibly be?

>>387186814
the scale of the levels needed for an open world sonic game wouldn't have been possible back in 98

>>387160157
>>387163553
This is why I hate Kirby Blowout Blast. Even Sonic made it to 3D better than Kirby, so far.

>>387186501
>Shadow has a special in which he teleports and reappears with an explosion. The Teleport can be held down infinitely for infinite stalling.
if you think that's a problem, you should try using a trap attack to negate the stall

>>387170243
>The goal point in good Sonic games is the right of the screen. Even in the twistier levels that have you go in multiple directions, your ultimate goal is to move to the right, and every path leads there.

S3&K kinda bucks this trend though, with multiple parts per stage where you have to move left

also there's that one part in sonic 2 chemical plant zone where you have to move left while jumping on the platforms that disappear, which felt really out of place

>>387173871
But violence is never the answer anon

>>387187218
>Trap him
>When the stall can be held indefinitely

>>387187512
>hit him with a trap or projectile during the stall
>suddenly the stall stops

Sonic died with adventure 2 battle

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>>387187510
It is when it comes to this. You're all retards that are talking about a franchise you don't understand. The point of the 3D games flies right over your fucking plebian pea sized turd that you call a brain. And then you wanna act like talking shit about them makes you objectively right or something. Suck my fucking throbbing dick, all of you. You're all fat NEETs while I'm a fucking jock chad who wouldn't hesitate to kick all of your shits in irl. You're all fucking mindless tasteless sheep. Literal drones that I have to beat down to get to the top. And nothing will stop me from going to the top. Nothing.

>>387187665
What part of "invincibility" do you not understand?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw516uy3qYM
he's right you know

>>387187176

The Dreamcast definitely could do maps that were bigger than, say, Banjo's, and those were already pretty big. Just space out map elements, give the player some space to run around and do shit instead of making a tight level that clashes with the character's speed (like the adventure games do) and that's it.

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>>387187916
>a jock chad
>but likes sonic

so we're all pretty much equal then

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>>387187916

>>387188151
I understand there's lots of losers that like Sonic but the true beautiful people such as myself appreciate the 3D games like I do. People who don't are just mindless sheep that parrot the opinions of others. You're all literal-whos that stand on some fake high ground that you've made for yourself and pretend like you know everything. You don't. You're a loser. And always will be. Fuck off and die

>>387188508
infinite is edgier

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Just make a new Sonic game with level designs like Lost World but fix the physics and remove
>the mandatory stage gimmicks
>areas that slow you down for more than a few seconds
>enemies that take more than one hit

And having Sonic running on a cylinder wrapping around 360 degrees also prevents the game from being linear. You're rewarded for circling around and finding items / bonuses that would otherwise be hidden in plain sight. It gives the player multiple paths to explore and feels more akin to classic Sonic than boost2win shit.

>>387188115
http://imgur.com/a/OVGWF
he's also in right here

>>387188573
Infinite is evil idiot, I'm the good guy.

>>387160157
>Why is 3D Mario good while 3D Sonic is bad?
Neither are good. Both franchises only work in 2D.

>>387188775
Nah m8
2D Mario is and has been babbies first platformer since SMB3
3D Mario is STILL 3D platformer king 20 years down the line

>>387188947
>3D Mario is STILL 3D platformer king 20 years down the line
Sunshine is the only 3D Mario game to even approach being decent, and even then it was still just mediocre.

>>387188746
good and evil is relative

>>387159741
>Are we ever getting an official Sonic game in the style of Utopia?
No
>I don't get why Sonic went from expansive, secret filled levels you could explore and play with in the 2D games to the linear, cinematic on-rails experience that the 3D games are. It's like the opposite of what happened to Mario.
Are you retarded? Most zones can be beaten in under minutes, easily. How is that expansive? And what secrets? Special stages aren't secret or hard to find. And what "exploration"? Trying to find the fastest route is what you're supposed to do. You're fucking stupid.

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>>387189007
>Sunshine

>>387189384
Sunshine is the only 3D Mario game with a fully-controllable camera, which makes it the only 3D Mario that nears being passable.

>>387189317
Then I'm the lesser of two evils

>>387189449
completely subjective

>>387170740

This


Its also why I was surprised by Utopia, its what 3d sonic game should have been but the tech was not there. Bring back physics based speed to create momentum.

Utopia feels really great.

>>387189447
Sunshine's Camera is objectively the worst of any 3D Mario. Shit borders on Sonic Adventure tier

>>387189596
So the fact that you think a certain someone is edgier than me is subjective too.

>>387189343

Just because you can speedrun a level doesn't make it small.

> How is that expansive?

Sonic was known for having pretty big levels, in terms of alternate paths, for a 2D sidescroller.

> And what secrets?

Kek, have you even played those games?


> Special stages aren't secret or hard to find

They are. If you want to get all the emeralds you'll be hunting for checkpoints beyond the "in the way" ones, on top of hunting for rings.

>>387189784
The camera is just fine. You control it with the right stick just like you control any proper camera in a 3D console game.

The objectively worst cameras in 3D Mario belong to 3D World and 3D Land, with 64, Galaxy, and Galaxy 2 hovering between them and Sunshine but leaning far closer to 3D Land and World than Sunshine.

>>387189753
>its what 3d sonic game should have been but the tech was not there

By the time SA2 hit I'm pretty sure the tech was available. Like many people said, Tony Hawk did on the PS1, no reason they couldn't take momentum physics and apply it to big maps in the Dreamcast area. I mean, we got Jet Set Radio, so there really was no excuse.

>>387187187
blowout blast is good though??? Best 8 bucks I could've spent.

>>387189970
Maybe viable, I jumped the shark a bit, but the level would not be so great.

Maybe even sonic racing level of big would be sufficient.

>>387189929
You do the same shit in 64 with the C buttons.
And with the added benefit of a Camera that doesn't randomly spaz out, obscure objects, and/or trap the player behind camera generated walls

>>387189787
no, that's objective fact

>>387190427
Kill yourself.

>>387190136
It's shit anon.

>>387190297
>You do the same shit in 64 with the C buttons.
Which isn't fully controlling the camera. You're choosing among 8 possible angles and 3 possible heights, and frequently none of those angles or heights would be ideal.

>And with the added benefit of a Camera that doesn't randomly spaz out, obscure objects, and/or trap the player behind camera generated walls
The camera was always under your control in Sunshine and wall textures were invisible if you were looking through them from the wrong way. Any objects were shown as question marks. The game did everything it could to show you where things were if you were looking at the playing area from OOB. It's not the game's fault you're a fucking idiot and can't position the camera exactly where you want it, because it gives you the tools to do so. No other 3D Mario does.

>>387190532
no thanks

>>387189784
What are you talking about? The camera is really good. It goes where you tell it to go. If you want a shit camera play Pac-Man World 2.

>>387190292

Sure, it doesn't have to be UTOPIA big, but big enough that you can play around and explore different routes. I have no idea why they haven't tried that yet.

>>387190745
C'mon, do it.

>>387174751
>>387174751
>Sonic Team IS NOT a studio
>it's a brand with several teams using it
>the Sonic Team logo is just here for marketing

Half truth, but wrong.

Sonic team used to be AM8, wich was renamed as Sonic Team with Sonic release, since the success of the first game, part of the japanese team went to USA to develop Sonic 2 with STI, while part of the team remained in japan developing Sonic CD. Naka remained with STI and ST until they finish S3+Knucles and then he come back full time in japan to work in Burning Rangers and Nights into dreams and so, until the reestructure, wich was near 2004 when Sonic Team absorved several teams like AM9 and come back with the main division of sega after the merge with Sammy, but Studio 8 remained as central production house for Sonic games. Sonic Forces is developed by studio 8 and Takashi Iizuka


Sonic Team USA is Sega Studio USA now, they supervised external studios like travellers tale, Bioware or Backbone studios for small spin off games like Sonic 3D, SCTDB or Sonic Rivals. Sonic Team supervised Dimps over GBA games.

>>387191348
my best friend almost killed himself and I don't wish that on anyone

>>387190723
>move forward
>The Camera collides with some imperceptible shit in the foreground on the corner of the screen
>Entire thing spazzes out and doesn't respond to inputs properly for the next 10 minutes.
The sunshine camera is great when it works, but is broken horse shit when it doesn't. You'd be hard pressed to find a game with a more unpredictable Camera. The game "giving you perfect control over the camera" is quite frankly a flat out lie. It's one of the buggiest and inconsistent cameras I've seen in an AAA title.

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>>387191015
I mean lets be fair, Sega was a giant and a wellspring of original games and incredibly talented development teams with TRUE arcade cred.

But shit start to shake as soon as 1995, and people gradually left SEga a skeleton and finally dead when Dreamcast was dead on arrival.

A good way to go out however.

>>387191612
if you're this much of a moralfag so why do you spout lies?

>>387189823
>Just because you can speedrun a level doesn't make it small.
Never said they were small in comparison to, say, Mario. But "expansive"? Hell no.
>How is that expansive?
The level design is great and has multiple paths, but almost no Sonic level is over 3 minutes
>Kek, have you even played those games
All recently in prep for Mania. Note that you had no examples
>Special stages aren't secret or hard to find
>If you want to get all the emeralds you'll be hunting for checkpoints beyond the "in the way" ones, on top of hunting for ring
You're just baiting now. Sonic 1 is just having 50 rings at the end of a level. 2 is signposts with 50 rings, and with the amount of checkpoints makes it VERY easy to get 7 emeralds if you're good at the special stages. 3&K is hunting for big rings, which is very easy to do with how plentiful they are. The Super emeralds are a nice touch, but calling it as "secret" is wrong since the game tells you where they are in a cutscene. Only 2D Sonic game where you hunt for hidden shit is Sonic CD and it's the most annoying aspect of the game.
Saying the classic games were "expansive" and full of "secrets and exploration" is flat out wrong, and you're stupod for thinking they're fucking Banjo & Kazooie-esque. They're better than that. They're more about being fast and skilled.

>muhmentum
the introduction of the spin dash in sonic 2 eliminated all concept of building up momentum

>>387192084
Wrong. The spin dash won't carry momentum on anything but a downward slope. Spindash is more useful for killing enemies or getting up loops which you shouldn't need if you know what you're doing.

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>>387191802

I never said they were Banjo-Kazooie-esque you retard, I said they rewarded exploration and trying out different routes. There are tons of hidden paths leading to extra rings and power-ups, and getting to know the layout of the maps and the best routes takes much more than just "being fast", you have to actually explore the level.

>But "expansive"? Hell no.

Yes, expansive. They were huge for the standards of the time.

And yeah, signposts were plenty, but if you fucked up once, you had to look for a new one, which lead you to explore the map. Unless you played the games with save-states, which doesn't really count.

>>387192214
Wrong. The spin dash eliminates the need to build up momentum to pass loops and ramps upwards

>>387192481
Which is why what Utopia does is great.

Spin dash only gives you a slight boost.

>>387192613
what's the point of a spin dash if it's only a slight boost?

>>387192358
You've been blown the fuck out, kid. Mutiple paths is great for replayability but Sonic isn't some fucking expansively empty collectathon and never was. Outside CD the point of the classic games was to nab the emeralds in the easy to find (sometimes hard to get) special stages and blast through the zones on the fastest path. That's what it encourages you to do and what it gives you the most points. Hell, the game even kills you if you take 10 minutes on a level. The game does not encourage endless dicking around "exploring" shit. Your objective is to reach the end of the level as fast as you can.

>>387192876

Its just there so you can create a slight momentum again and mostly to attack. You can just start running normally again.

Try Utopia and you will know what I mean.

If you want a momentum based 3D platformer why not play marble blast gold?

>>387160157
Adventure formula is way better than boost tho

>>387192960

>You've been blown the fuck out, kid.

By stating facts? You're the one making the retarded conclusion that exploration and big maps = slow collectathon. I never said that. Exploration can be fast paced, like it is in the Sonic games.

> The game does not encourage endless dicking around "exploring" shit. Your objective is to reach the end of the level as fast as you can.

Just because you play the game like that doesn't mean everyone else does. Plenty of people enjoy exploring different routes, finding secret pick-ups and taking their time to explore the level layout.

Just check out the maps in mania, for fuck's sake. They're huge and filled with alternate routes.

Somehow you're making the connection between exploration and slowing down, which is entirely on you, I never said that.

>>387193134
>3-6 underdeveloped gameplay styles full of rough edges with levels that each have their own extensive one off gimmicks, all equally rough and unpolished

>better than one fleshed out gameplay style that's relatively polished (yet not unbreakable)

Sonic adventure in particular was a literal fucking tech demo for the dreamcast

>>387193134

It really isn't. Adventure is only fun when it's doing exactly what Boost games do, but in a jankier, shittier way.

boost games are reaction based platforming built around perfecting and optimising the set path, and that is a perfectly valid gameplay style

>>387193535
Lost World was my favourite stage, it is the furthest thing from a boost zone.

>>387193837
how the fuck do you actually like lost world?

>>387193535
Gonna have to disagree with you there. Sonic Adventure is most fun when using what little physics the game has to break levels with spindash jumps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT3SfVwvMzE
SA2 is the game that shit the bed with scripted sequences being more than 10% of the level and implementing corridor designs.

>>387194046

That looks glitchy as hell. I can't stand how janky the game looks.

You may find that fun, but I'm pretty sure that's not what most people think.

>>387194046
>sonic adventure is most fun when you abuse the broken physics in a way the developers did not intend
not a good argument in SA's favor anon

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>>387159741
>>387160396
These tech demos don't have enough to carry an entire game.

This guy has laid out a pretty good framework for how a classic 3D Sonic game could work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVKFRxgwSWE

>>387159741
no one wants to see "classic sonic" ever again

>>387194356
>>387194401
>Why are people abusing physics in Physics Abuse: The Series

>>387194682
Again, not an argument in the favor of the objective quality of sonic games

>>387194765
Do you expect me to give you examples of the game's source code and explain how efficiently it was written?

>>387194908
the 2D or 3D games?

>>387194682

2D Sonic games were fun when you weren't artistically breaking the game to speedrun, SA isn't.

>>387194908
>write a primitive physics engine with lots of broken exploits
>"it's efficient because the code isn't that long and that's good!"

>>387194952
Yes

>>387193984
Platforming, puzzles, and running along the walls.
It is the least automated level.

>>387195015
Do it

>>387195028
>level
are you getting your names mixed up? Lost world was the wii u game

>>387195158
Lost World was an action stage in Sonic Adventure.

I also do like many of the standard 3D stages in Sonic Lost World.

>>387194468
>playable tech demos don't have enough to carry an entire game

>this theorycrafting video does