>have literally a shitton of undeniable evidence that R=U

Fithos...

I loved this instalment. I grew up playing with my fat fuck cousin. We beat it together, it was fun.

What shitton of evidence? Ultimecia is like from the future, Rinoa would be long dead.

I believe that random fucker since he was on the writer's staff.

>>386812125
Squall is dead.

Staff trumps fan theory, you can say it doesn't make sense, but in the end of the day, they have the final word, and I wish you American autismo fuckwits would understand it, and drop these stupid, long dead fan theories thinking you're a lot smarter than you are.
As far as I'm concern, this is no better than Sans is Ness theory.

>>386814178
Not him, but all that stuff about being persecuted for being a witch (which Rinoa was) and her idea of the ultimate GF being Grevier. It does make the story way more intriguing IMO.

>>386812125
>oh no! Rinoa is about to fall! What do we do!
>Help her up? Nah! Call Squall who has his hands full right now!
No, I refuse to believe the Ultimeca is Rinoa theory solely because evidence proves that FFVIII just has shit writing. I can believe the ending has such a fucking stupid plothole because the game itself is fucking stupid

>>386812125
>Hey! This orphanage looks familiar!
>Yeah! I remember it too!
>Wait so do I!
>Hey we all went to this orphanage but we just forgot!
I love playing and breaking FF8 to this day but the plot was fucking laughable. Rinoa should have stayed in space with her dog, Squall should have hooked up with Quistis, Seifer should have hooked up with fujin but with sorceress powers, Ultimecia is a hack. Literally a sorceress from the future that somehow couldn't stop you or see it in the future that you would stop her.

>>386814505
gee whiz a sorceress got persecuted in the future after basically every sorceress in the past was evil, what a fucking shocker

>>386814379
>staff blah blah
death of the author, faggot.

if I write "Jane likes potatoes" and then years later someone ask me what it meant and i go into a long speil about "jane likes potatoes' being an analogy for interalized coping with abuse, are you going to say 'well that's that" or are you going to say "that's fucking retarded, there's no evidence for that and the statement is clearly about jane liking potatoes"

Actual evidence in the story trumps some shit some staffmember says after.

>>386812125
That Squaresoft was unusually retarded in that instance and they really missed a chance there. Maybe it was planned that way but later scrapped or whatever.

Anyway I'll keep it as my headcanon, the explanation that Ultimecia spontaneously gets the idea for Griever from Squall's mind is absurd nonsense compared to the R=U version.

>>386814379
It's stupid though. Why not just saying nothing?

>>386814819
>death of the author, faggot.
No fuck you, and fuck "death of the author" bullshit, that is such goddamn horseshit. If I made a character hug another character of the same sex, and one reader says 'I think he's gay' and I go 'no, he isn't, and then the fan constantly going on how said character is 'clearly' gay, who are you going to believe, the fucking person who knows the character inside out?
You can say the author is an idiot, but in the end, he has final say, you can argue, but you can't say your word is more important than the goddamn writing staff who made their stance clear.

>>386812125

While I'd like to say that it's open for interpretation, like all subjective material is, I don't think that works in this situation.

In a world where modern """art""" is a shoe on a pedestal, with a 29 page explanation of how it represents women's suffering, the creator's word is law.

If the the game director said it's non-canon, it's non-canon. If anyone else says it though, it's probably still subjective.

It depends on who claimed that it was non-canon.

>>386815152
b-but muh headcannon...! In my head Squall is a hedgehog because in the dance scene he was shy and hedgehogs are shy. He also has spiky hair!

It doesn't matter if it's true or not if the evidence is so opaque that you'd have to go over the story with a fine-toothed comb to figure it all out. Something that significant should be revealed in plain English. The only reason the theory exists in the first place is because FFVIII has such shitty plot structure that it's downright plausible they'd have botched the delivery of such a major revelation. If it were true that actually wouldn't make the game better but worse because now you have a major revelation that should have serious ramifications for the characters and their story arcs being mostly ignored and treated as a minor bit of easily missed trivia. That'd be like if Darth Vader's identity was only vaguely hinted at by a random dude on Cloud City and everyone just sort of ignored it.

>>386814716
>Rinoa should have stayed in space with her dog
Rinoa's dog is the best character alongside Squall

Sorceresses don't have extended lifespans. They don't die until they transfer their powers but as they are dying they are pretty much forced to.

If a sorceress could cheat death by refusing to transfer her power you could have never defeated Adel and Ultimecia.

Rinoa will age, become old, and be forced to transfer her powers. Maybe down the line the powers eventually find their way to Ultimecia though.

>>386815398

I don't agree with this, I see your point though, and you're right that something like this might have been intended as this big reveal but the writers' dropped the ball.

That being said I think it's more of a "last minute thriller-like reveal". You know, one of those silly M. Night Shyamalan movies where the last twist is always shown overly dramatic reveal.

The only difference is that in FF8 they forgot to reveal it. And that's poor writing, I agree, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

>>386815628
>The only difference is that in FF8 they forgot to reveal it. And that's poor writing, I agree, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Counter point, if that truly, TRULY was their intention, then why the hell didn't they just say 'yeah that was what we were shooting for' when asked? This is such a simple thing to clarify

>being disrespectful with the staff's work
It's their game you entitled fuck

Ultimeca by all logic of the game won no matter what. What you are forgetting is these are the same writers that did "We all grew up in the same orphanage!"
They are hacks, frauds, idiots, it is a plothole they completely forgot to fix. The reason the theory exists is because the plot of FF8 is awful

>>386815628
But if they forgot to reveal it then it didn't happen. If Batman Begins had a cut side plot about the guy who shot Batman's parents being from Planet Xerkon 5 and then cut it last minute then the guy just reverts to being some bum in an alley.

It's called conservation of detail. Things are what they look like unless we're told otherwise. When you hear hoofbeats think horses, not zebras.

>>386815754

Heh, I totally get your point, but honestly, wouldn't you be pretty ashamed of dropping that kind of ball?

I mean think about it, you're the writer on a major AAA video game, known for it's plot and characters. At some point, in some early meeting, someone pitched the idea of the main love interest also being the main antagonist. A lot of you loved it, but some of you didn't.

Now you decided to keep the idea and write the script to reflect that, but your team's incompetence started to blur into the original vision. People who didn't like this idea who were on the writing-staff were starting to go out of their way to not hint at the borderline strange reveal.

Now after a lot of forwards and backwards the oppsiing writers actually got majority and at the last second the plot point was written out. You and everyone else just assumed the existing hints were too vague and that no one would ever find it without the official reveal.

But people did, and now you're ashamed.

Of course this is all just guess-work,
but I've heard that, at least in movies, weird writing disputes spin off like this all the time.

>t. someone who actually works in the movie industry

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>>386812125
>>386814379
Which staff member said anything about it? This is the first I've heard.

>>386814716
The thing is Ultimecia knows you defeat her in the past
But she goes to the past anyway to stop you from defeating her

She could have gone to any other time period and she would have been fine, but she HAD to go to the specific period of time she knows you defeated her in

Also what the fuck was time compression supposed to achieve? Like what was she going to do after she compressed time, what's the goal

>>386816140
If that someone doesn't have the balls to clarify something this important like a dropped plot point of this magnitude when asked, they deserve to have the point obscured.

>>386814741
There was more to it but I forgot the more nuanced stuff.

The biggest smoking gun is the whole exchange between Squall and Rinoa about Griever and Ultimecia using it as the ultimate GF. It's almost perfect except like >>386814379 said the writers basically went "nope" so the official canon is that they're not one and the same.

What we have is a fan theory that is only really supported by the fact that the game sucks at telling it's story. Occam's razor would dictate that it's just a game with a bunch of plot holes rather than a secret gambit to hide major revelations like a scavenger hunt that only the player (not the characters) learn about. Again, that would actually make the story a shit ton worse, not better.

>>386815531
>finds a way to "compress time"
>can't circumvent aging

Hell we could just go with time travel even. Final FANTASY amirite

>Shitton of evidence
No, you don't.
Every single bit of it is refutable.
As for the shit with Griever, she literally pulls the idea from Squall's thoughts.

>>386812125
How in the hell does it make sense for Rinoa not to be Ulti when Ulti has your ring as a GF?

SiD >>>>>>>>> R=U

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fuck selphie
marry quistis
kill rinoa

>>386812125
>Ihavetwosides.jpg

>>386816276

Of course. FF8 suffers from some truly abysmal story writing (and character-writing for that matter, what was the point of Selphie's character again?), so there's a real possibility even something like a big plot point could have just been left completely un-revealed thanks to some in-team dispute or something.

>>386816608
Why not both? Maybe as squall is dying he realizes that rinoa is a bitch and makes her the ultimate villain

>>386816251

She wanted to end all existence so that she could seize existing. It's a stupid concept but she can't die without passing on the powers, and she's too bitter for that. Meaning that the only way to die AND keep the powers is to end all reality.

It's silly.

>>386816251
Compressing time was just a way to make her God (just like every Final Fantasy game) where she can control everything but was stopped before it could collapse completely just in time because plot but enough for you to walk through space and time into her future where she was conveniently sent and fight her. The only way to exist in a time where they don't belong is THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP because if someone believes in you, you exist. No one believed in Rinoa so she didn't. But after you beat Ultimicea in her time, time starts compressing and Squall is saved when Rinoa believes in him. I can't fucking make this up. It's 2deep5you.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Time_compression

>>386814716
What the fuck do you have against the dog? Angelo was a cool thing.

>>386815152
The dudes in your example probably aren't gay, there's no mound of evidence for it.
If there was a mound of evidence for it, but then the author later says "nah" even though the two characters are buttfucking by the end, would you give the author's input the same credence?
Are you going to be a mindless sheep who just accepts the word of someone who clearly didn't and doesn't know their own work enough to realize what they've set up, or are you going to use your own brain and intepret from the evidence clear to you?

At the end of the day, what's in the story is all that truly matters. The author won't always be there, they might not always remember, they might not ever tell you. In the end, they are just a fantheorist as much as anyone else after their work hits the public and is out of their hands.

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>oh btw I remember the orphanage but I didn't didn't want to say anything

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>>386816687
Heh, I mean it's like almost 20 years ;_; too late, but that would be pretty good.

>>386817053
>using a wiki as source

Might as well have written "my gaping wide anus".

>>386817182

It was a weird little twist that wasn't as much a surprise as it was completely stupid.

>>386817182
He was trying to play Mr. Cool. Can't be Mr. Cool when you're all "whoa guys wtf why don't you remember me"

>>386817242

Every time I see this picture I cringe a little. And not because of the obvious reasons of how silly it is, but because this wasn't too far from how I was in my early teens.

I remember trying to create one of those free websites that were all the rage in the early 2000s and base it around me having a light and a dark side to my personality.

It was turbo-cringe and I can't look at this picture without remembering it.

>>386817070
He was a dog. That was a missle. But not in the Ghost Trick sort of way. Wasn't even around for plot.

>>386817245
I'M SORRY YOU'RE RIGHT LET ME POST A BETTER LINK

https://www.emuparadise.me/Sony_Playstation_ISOs/Final_Fantasy_VIII_(E)_(Disc_4)/52210

>>386817182
That said... What was the point of that while deal? To show that Edea and Cid hooked up? The fuck did that add?

>>386817514
>interpretation

>>386817604
>4-dimensional chess

>>386817479
Nice blog!

>>386817609
Not interpretation. She literally says she's going to "uze ze time kompression" to remake the universe. Did you even play the game?

>>386817696

Thanks, I should really start it again.

>>386817604
I think they just wanted a cool twist like in FF7 finding out about Zack / cloud just being a grunt but they fumbled it and produced some very cheesy and pointless storytelling

>>386817716
>i
>n
>t
>e
>r
>p
>r
>e
>t
>a
>t
>i
>o
>n

>>386814505
>>386816282

Griever's scan states Ultimecia created it on the spot after looking into Squall's heart.

>Game specifically states Guardian Force usage causes amnesia
>You fags still flip out about the orphanage shit

The only thing wrong with it was Irvine remembering and not saying shit.

-GF causing memory loss only becomes a non-shitty orphanage plot point if it's also used to explain that Rinoa forgot who she really was over time and become Ultimecia
-Note how Rinoa was the only party member who didn't grow up in that orphanage

-Rinoa constantly states throughout the game that she wants time to stand still and for Squall to be with her forever
-She also states that she only wants to die by Squall's hand

-She tells Squall at the fields outside the orphanage that they'll meet there again
-It's also the same place where Ultimecia's castle is located

-Griever. Enough said.

-Rinoa and Ultimecia not only have the same facial features, but are the only two sorceress in the game that are associated with angel wings

-Nothing in the game itself states sorceress live normal lifespans, only supplementary materials. The game beats you over and over the head with sorceress can't die until they hand over their powers.

Basically the plot of the game is that Squall was Rinoa's sorceseress knight. After using GF for a long time Rinoa forgot who she was. People hated her so she only knew to hate back, and became Ultimecia. Something about Squall still lingered in her head (she felt drawn to him) based on her past memories so the time compression plan was engineered so she could bring his past self into the future.

I don't care if it's non canon. It adds an extra layer to the story that the game itself fully supports.

>>386817479
atleast

atleast you weren't like me and actually posted picture

>>386817182
The game made it pretty clear that despite his outward appearance Irvine was fairly self conscious and lacked confidence in himself. When he saw all of the others act like he was a stranger he wasn't the type to confront them about it. Plus they were much younger in the orphanage. He could have very well thought they just didn't recognize him. And again, lack of confidence meant he didn't bring it up.

>>386814716
The memory loss thing was foreshadowed several times.

>>386817965

Oh I did. Somewhere out there is one of those free webpages with the worlds dumbest picture of me smiling in a colorful image on the left side, and me looking serious in a black and white picture on the right. I pray that whatever that service was has been shut down and all the pages cleared and lost.
I dread someone some day accidentally tripping over that mess.

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>>386817882
Plus all of this.

>>386818149
I'm sure we'll be fine

>>386818276

L-let's hope so Anon. Let's hope so.

>>386818205
Half of those are jokes.

>>386814645
This is the most valid argument ever.

>>386814505
>and her idea of the ultimate GF being Grevier
It came from Squall, not Rinoa.

>>386814716

Why did Fujin talk like that

>>386818205

I kinda' want this theory to be real. Like, if the lead writer ever came out and said that this was all planned all along and they just decided not to reveal it as they felt the clues they provided were good enough, that'd make FF8 the most cryptically written FF ever.

>>386818462
Yeah It's still almost literally an asspull compared to the fan theory.

>>386812125
So if it's the truth and it makes the game better, why haven't Squenix confirmed it?

Give me one good reason, Balamb Garden and all the cheezey modern japanese highschool life tropes don't make the game's world jarring and impossible to get invested in.

It's like if bayside highschool and the cast of saved by the bell replaced the shire and hobbits in lord of the rings.

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>>386815395
>Cloud has spiky blond hair
>Super Sonic has spiky blond hair
>Final Fantasy 7
>7 chaos emeralds

>>386818376
No, they're hints at the amnesia twist.

>>386818512
That pic has nothing to do with the idiotic Rinoa/Ultimecia theory. That's some Death Stranding is Chapter 3 levels of delusion.

>>386818097
>>386818205
It's not that it wasn't hinted at, it's just a lazy plot point. It's on the same level as everything was just a dream. That compounded on with everyone conveniently being in the same orphanage and Irvine never saying anything hinting about their past.

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>>386818661
HOLY SHIII

Nida was too good for that game.

>>386818097
Not well though. Thats FFVIII's problem in a nutshell: it takes vital information and obscures it by only vaguely referencing it during seemingly insignificant scenes you're likely to forget or ignore as mere background fluff. And in a 60 hour long game with tons of dialogue and lots of distance between plot points, the sudden revelation that this amnesia thing has a MAJOR effect on your characters and the story is stupid as shit.

>>386818619

You're thinking about it wrong.

The Gardens aren't:
>cheezey modern japanese highschool

It's more of a:
>child-soldier African nation with far better organizational structure

There really isn't all that much slice-of-life to be had in it. Garden's are mostly a way to glorify the PMC-life and permit young men and women to die for a poorly defined cause.

>>386818556
>using Draw is an asspull
Sure thing, anon.

>>386818679
No, you're reaching too far. Nida is the cliche "so unremarkable everyone forgets about him" gag character.

Pulling extra shit out of your ass when several objective sources support your point makes you look like a total retard.

>>386818821
>it doesn't beat me over the head with foreshadowing so it's bad

>>386812125
I don't give a fuck either way. I think it's a great game.

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>>386812125
Wait, now I am confused.
I always thought that Ultimecia was Rinoa from the future, it is not?

>>386818462
Seems a bit weird that Ultimecia cares so much what Squall thinks of as the ultimate power. Also, why does she have the power to read/manipulate minds? Doesn't that beg the question as to why she didn't just get Squall to be her knight?

>>386817479

>tfw in middle school I used to draw comics that had OC characters who were friends with Sonic the Hedgehog and went on adventures with him
>luckily never scanned or uploaded them anywhere and the only people who know are people that have known me since then

>>386818885
>using Draw
lmao Ultimecia needs to git gud and lrn2refine shit, who actually uses Draw lmao

>>386819001
Anyone who wants all of the GFs?

>>386818965
She knows Squall is the one destined to kill her. Duh.

>>386814645
there wasn't a thing they could have done and since they are all teens they just called their leader.

big deal, you retard.

>>386818979

We were lucky to grow up before the boom of social media Anon. Can you imagine the borderline irreparable damage we could have done to ourselves had these fragments of childish autism been associated with our actual identities for the res of our lives?

>>386818902
One of the more important plot twists is everyone has amnesia. How is that not bad writing?

>>386819047
I don't need no GF, I just cast spells nigga.

>>386818205
Again, some random dialogue from NPCs is not how you prepare a major third act revelation. Remember, Squall was a self absorbed dick who spends the first half of the game telling people to fuck off. That he wouldn't bother to remember some random person is in line with his stated character traits at that point. You shouldn't have to play a game a second time to pick up on the foreshadowing.

>>386819170
Because it has proper build up and good payoff.

>>386818376
>literally has alzheimers
>a joke

>>386819162
Those things can only happen in isolation. Anyone with good sense would know to keep stuff like that private.

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>>386819162


basically

>>386818821
Reminder that this is FFVII's fault

>"dude VII is SO DEEP there's all this DEEP shit"
>square hears that fans think this and decides to up the DEEPness by hiding plot in rare conversations and leaving lots of stuff unsaid
>fans get a game that is seemingly braindead
>the ones that like it come up with /x/ tier conspiracies like R=U and Squall is Dead

>>386818879
>It's not a japanese high school because of its militaristic structure.

Unlike all the other high schools in japanese media that do nothing but train kids to fight with magic. right?

They even had kids setting up a cultural festival and fighting over the fancy sandwiches at lunch.

>>386819128
>why does she have the power to read/manipulate minds? Doesn't that beg the question as to why she didn't just get Squall to be her knight?

Why do people call Squall emo?

>>386812125
Is there like a video or something that summarizes the whole Rinoa/Ultimecia theory? I'm interested in learning more desu

>>386819504
People have no clue what emo is and use it as a general insult towards characters they don't like.

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>>386819529
>not just googling it and reading some scholarly articles

>>386819504
because of "whatever"

>>386819303
You're right about a proper build up but wrong about the payoff, however it's still a device used by lazy writers. Nothing is lost if everyone had their memories. If it was explained from the beginning that they were all from the same orphanage or even if the opening scene of the game was orphanage scene played out, it would have made no difference. It's just lazy writing.

>Ultimecia in Dissidia

>Uses Rinoa's equipment
>Quotes Rinoa's "Shall we dance?" line from the Balamb ball
>Uses some of Rinoa's animations from FF8

What did Square-Enix mean by this?

>>386819417

That's not really the point though is it? The point is that Japanese high schools DON'T train their kids to become elite mercenaries through physical combat.

There are other things that break the high-school similarities:
>there is apparently no "graduating" from the Garden, you can become a SeeD but you're still associated with the place and you still continue to take lessons
>there are very few actual classes being taught, rarely do you meet anyone in the garden "on their way to class" or preparing for theory-based exams, or talking about their grades
>the concept of uniforms and a structured education plan seem very lax, to the point where the student must partake in practical examination, but between those exams the student is free to do whatever he/she wants to bolster their strength

If anything FF8's Gardens feel more like a very literal military school, as in a school that trains you to join a branch of the military, over an actual place of theoretical education.

Lets also not pretend that its the first time Square did this shit. Yeah the amnesia thing is hamfisted but lets not forget that Tifa let Cloud tell a story to their friends that she knew was bullshit.

>>386817604
To hammer in the point that this is all preordained and a matter of destiny catching up with them. Also to put the whole "GFs screw your mind" part in the spotlight.

>>386819964
>The point is that Japanese high schools DON'T train their kids to become elite mercenaries through physical combat.

You sir are a liar.

>>386820059

No I'm not. Most Jap-schools are just academia mills that shit out mediocrity like most other schools.

>>386812387

lusec

>>386819487
>why can a sorceress use magic?

This is how stupid you are.

>>386816140
>Heh, I totally get your point, but honestly, wouldn't you be pretty ashamed of dropping that kind of ball?
No? Even Japanese writers and developers admit to their mistakes, especially on games so far back in their resume. If the problem stemmed from internal disputes, there really isn't any reason to shy from admitting it because that kind of shit is so common in the industry. It's not like it fucked over the entire franchise. It still made money. It was still well received enough to make more FF games. Shit happens. It was almost two decades ago.

>>386817174
It still doesn't matter. If it comes from the creator, it is the absolute truth. If it isn't supported by the evidence in the creator's work, it just means the creator did a piss poor job of executing their intent. It doesn't change the intent though. Even if two male characters spend the entire story buttfucking each other, if the author says they aren't gay, then they aren't gay. The author comes off as a hack who can't get their message across properly but that's still the message they intended to send.

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>no, see, it'll be perfect
>i'll have a bunch of random latin words and it'll be an anagram of the words SUCCESSION OF WITCHES and LOVE

>>386819695
It gives the Edea twist more impact.

>>386819984
There's legitimate reasons why Tifa couldn't bring it up though. For one thing, because Cloud's a mentally-unstable headcase with retard strength, and challenging his reality could be disastrous. For another, there were things about his story that she knew was wrong, but there were also things about it that were right that he couldn't possibly have known unless he was there, and since her memory of the ordeal wasn't complete either, she couldn't challenge him on it. You even see her try to bring it up a couple times throughout the game but she changes the subject because she doesn't think it would help anything.

>>386812125
FF6 story was good because the characters were fun/interesting and it's all based out of their interactions to the simple plot.

Even with said theory, FF8 was still a bloated mess filled with inconsistent aesthetic choices in both the narrative and visual design. Plus it had some weak ass characters. I could talk shit about Squall and Rinoa all day but the supporting cast is so weak I don't even need to.

>>386812125
>it actually makes the story better
No it fucking doesn't. It ruins the story by making the time loop impossible, and completely undermines the tragic life of Ultimecia.

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>>386820363
>ff6 story was good

>>386820396
>It ruins the story by making the time loop impossible, and completely undermines the tragic life of Ultimecia.
It does neither of these things.

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>>386819897

>>386819964
Japanese high schools don't teach kids to fight, they don't teach kids to play Duel monsters, they don't teach kids to exorcise demons, or take witches souls, or be the little-boy-fuckpets to the women fighting alien monsters.
Using a high school setting with all the trimmings is usually just pathetic market flailing to get kids attention, and it was especially out of place for the final fantasy franchise which had gone through 7 games without resorting to it.

>>386820130
we're talking about japanese schools in media, not real life.

Video games and anime aren't real.

>>386818890
he had a name? maybe i should stop using GFs IRL.

>>386819395
>R=U
>/x/ tier conspiracy
>the story literally makes no sense without it
>all the hints >>386817903 mentions
>but ONE RANDOM STAFF GUY SAID IT'S NOT TRUE
I dunno man if you want to not believe it you're free to enjoy the inferior version of the story, no pressure
Meanwhile I'll be over here enjoying a story that actually makes sense with a good (although horribly botched) twist

>>386820329
A twist that makes her look human, yes. We're getting into preference territory here but personally, I think it would be better to have her be human from the beginning, then turn bad, then help you out in the end rather than a build up of everyone has amnesia and then the game does nothing with it for the sake of a twist. If the game did more with the amnesia thing, it would have made it better.

>>386820347
And this is where Square kept fucking up. They dont know how to connect the dots. They dont leave a trail of breadcrumbs that is appropriately paced for the length of the game. Instead they leave one crumb in the first two hours and then *BOOM* disc 3 plot twist! We know SOMETHING is wrong with Cloud because he short circuits every now and then but we never actually get informed that Tifa is legitimately worried about his mental state to the extent that she'd let him lie about vital information. Up to the flashback she just seems like his friend who doesn't really like that he's not like he used to be.

>>386820240
>Doesn't that beg the question as to why she didn't just get Squall to be her knight?

Try not disregarding that part before calling someone stupid, stupid.

>>386812125
>undeniable evidence
>obnoxious amounts of coincidences and the fact that the Time Compression forces you to FLY THROUGH FUCKING CENTURIES TO FACE HER
God you're fucking retarded.

Just believe whatever makes you happy dude. It's a video game. The devs at bioware said Calen (sp) would have lost the fight in dao even if Loghaine attacked even though that's super fucking retarded for various reasons so I just believe what I want to believe.

>>386820752
Having the orphanage scene play out and later revealing that Edea suddenly turned evil a few years later would have made the possession twist a little too obvious. I'll agree it could have been done better, but so could every plot point out there.

>>386817604
It's kind of dumb how Cid plays down the fact that the first kids in their orphanage were then trained to be child soldiers without batting an eye.

>>386820983
stupid.

>>386812125

>the worst girl is actually the best girl

It makes no sense whatsoever

>>386820967
If you have Tifa with you at Gongaga she flips out when they start questioning about Zack. I'm sure there's other parts too that I'm forgetting, but she's not worried so much as determined to keep everything ticking along because she wants her idea of Cloud to persist.

>>386819504
Just because of his looks.
The irony is that emo stands for emotional, and Squall is the total opposite

>>386820967
All the sections where Cloud is talking to himself should be enough to let you know that something is amiss, I mean just who is he talking to? Nevermind that it happens as early as the first bombing run.

>>386820983
Because Squall wasn't the one with childish delusions about being a knight? She didn't mind control Seifer.

I honestly think VIII deserves the remake.
VII is already good.

>>386821170
Good job refuting the point, not that I expected you to.

>>386821038
Oh man, they should have done that but hinted more heavily at the split between her and Cid. Make it seem like she took a garden over to beat his SeeDs to fit with the political tension in the game. They could have done so much better!

>>386821156
For them it's normal though

>>386821156

When faced with the eventual destruction of spacetime, you get more relaxed with your morals

>>386821218
>her idea
You mean she doesn't want him realizing he's fucking delusional until she finds out he was there all along?

But for real, does Dquall die at the end of Disc 1?

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>>386821373
Fixed

>>386821519
>>386821484
For the kids maybe, the only reason he had the idea to make Garden was because of that weird as fuck prophesy and he used kids he raised from near infancy for it.

>>386821293
Just because she didn't have to control Seifer doesn't mean she couldn't do it to Squall.

"Ultimecia seeks to become omnipotent through the absorption of all time, space, and existence. She can invade and control an individual's body and mind both internally and externally, and, through the use of Junction Machine Ellone, wields this ability throughout different eras. Ultimecia can reach into a person's mind to steal or give life to thoughts, knowledge, and magic."

>>386820443
The "Phophecy" of the ultimate witch, Ultimecia was created because of the time loop, and created long before Ultimecia was born. Because of it, all future generations of SeeD develop into very aggressive witch hunters, seeking out anyone with witch powers to either kill or seal them away before they start wrecking shit.

Ultimecia was being hunted before she was even born. She never once had anyone to side with her, to protect her. She had no knight. Her entire life was misery because of SeeD. She grew to despise everyone and believed her only solace would be to be completely alone. Ultimecia did NOT go back in time, she was thrown back to the point of Squall's childhood during the interrupted Time Kompression after she was defeated in the future. The only way for Ultimecia to have gone back in time was if Squall went to the future and defeated her.

Rinoa on the other hand is the polar opposite, her life was effortless and safe and pleasant because she was a little rich girl. She had a bunch of friends, many silly ideals, and had a crush on the cutest boy at school. Squall vowed to protect her, and Rinoa made sure to use her Sorceress powers for good.

The whole theme of the game is "Love". Rinoa and Ultimecia are as far apart as possible when it came to experiencing love, they both end up facing persecution in the witch hunts, but have opposing views on what they want. Ultimecia wants to be alone, she can't trust anyone. Rinoa wants to be with her friends and family and Squall.

If Squall were to die at any point during the game, the time loop could not take place. He HAS to defeat Ultimecia, Ultimecia has to go to the past to possess Edea. No matter what, Rinoa will have a happy life when they get back to the present and would obviously be exempt from SeeD persecution. There is zero reason for Rinoa to suddenly do a flip and take on the name Ultimecia, the same as the one whom they defeated.

>>386821558
That, and so he can keep being her hero like she made him promise to be before he left Nibelheim.

>>386821658
>wiki shit

Give evidence directly from the game itself or fuck off.

>>386821817
She makes no indication it was for her own benefit outside of keeping someone from her hometown near her and the one who basically got shit for trying to stop her from going up the mountain and getting herself killed.

>>386821901
"Edea renders Rinoa under her control like a puppet, and Rinoa placidly follows Edea out onto the balcony where she is designated as a sacrifice for Edea's coronation ceremony."

>it's a "the clever merchant who hides in the shadow is responsible for all the evil in the world" episode
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhtNMRRw08c

WHEN FANTASY AND REALITY MEET

>>386821802
>She had no knight
There's nothing in the game to say she had no sorceress's knight.

Also the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory doesn't otherwise contradict anything you said. By using GFs Rinoa forgot who she was. People hated her the moment she became a sorceresses in her teens. With Squall dead of old age and GFs wiping her memory away, Rinoa as Ultimecia became exactly like the person who you describe

>No matter what, Rinoa will have a happy life when they get back to the present and would obviously be exempt from SeeD persecution
There's no evidence for this. She's still a sorceress. The people that actually know she's a good person will die of old age eventually. People know that sorceresses are bad because of what that future sorceress did.

The themes that you pronounce and the R=U themes are compatible.

>>386821218
>>386821289
The problem was that there wasn't any foreshadowing that protecting Cloud's psyche was one of Tifa's character traits before it affected the story.

Think about Aladdin. Remember when Abu fucked up in the Cave of Wonders by stealing that giant ass gemstone despite the warning not to touch anything? The reason that works is because in the first act we see Abu having no self control when it comes to his thievery. We learn about his character trait in an innocuous setting and then later it turns out that trait causes mayhem.

In FFVII Tifa letting Cloud tell a fake story is a HUGE deal but we're never informed that doing such a thing is her modus operandi. Finding out a character has a trait only once it becomes plot relevant is terrible writing.

What we needed to see before Cloud's flashback was a sequence where Cloud lied about something innocuous that Tifa knew about, got caught, and Tifa is forced to admit that she didn't interfere because she's worried about him. If they did that then when Tifa says "yeah, I thought his story was fishy but I didn't say anything" we could all go "OH! That makes perfect sense!"

What Square does, though, is give us information that appears to be on the level, have a character act nebulously weird about the situation, and then pull the rug out from under us hours later paying only minor lip service to the rationale behind it.

>>386820157
wecos

>>386822081
If you actually played the game you'd realize "control like a puppet" is meant to be taken literally, as in using magic to physically manipulate her body.

>>386822261
You do realize any dialogue hint of her knowing something was fucked with his flashback story would literally break the twist right? And she basically shows she's thinking about his story during one of the brief breaks and hell, she even calls him out about whether he stole her underwear or not.

>>386822149
Rinoa has no reason to use a GF after the events of the game, and you need to have one actively Junctioned for any memory shenanigans.

>>386822390
No, the flashback could remain exactly the same. What needed to change was Tifa's complete lack of character development in the "willing to let Cloud lie" department BEFORE the flashback scene. That wouldn't break the twist. It would make the twist actually work right.

>>386822001
I'm pretty sure she does have moments where she talks about how she was trying to fool herself and believe his story because of wanting him to be like that, and she shows how she thinks she cares about him and wants to be with him but finding it exactly would take too long and I don't remember the full game explicitly right now so uh, just take my word for it? Besides there's the flashback at Seventh Heaven showing her wanting him to be her hero.
>>386822261
That's not comparable at all. One is using a character trait to set events in motion while the other is hinting at a character's motivations in a scenario before a plot twist. It'd be more like if you start watching Aladdin after he's made the wish to be a prince, with the Cave of Wonders happening later on, which could work in it's own way.

>>386822261
What do you think inner voice Cloud is there for? And you act like Tifa doesn't get squirrely every time the past gets brought up. The whole point of Cloud being an unreliable narrator is so that the twist could be dropped. What impact is gained from him realizing the truth off the bat?

>>386814379

But Sans IS Ness

>>386822361
oh hay well why didn't she do that to squall either roflmao

>>386822784
SeeD training.

>>386822784
She did. Play the game.

>>386822456
>Rinoa has no reason to use a GF after the events of the game
Self protection from the angry mobs who want to burn her on the stake?

>>386822654
Tifa's behavior is what enables the twist in the first place, though. She's the gatekeeper in the scenario. If she calls Cloud out, the entire story comes crashing down. For that reason we needed foreshadowing that letting Cloud lie is how their relationship works. Alternatively, an earlier scene where she DOES call out Cloud for some innocuous lie and Cloud goes completely apeshit would work just as well since that would justify her later silence. As it stands in the game itself, she just ends up looking like an idiot.

It's like plot structure 101. If someone's character trait is plot relevant then you have to introduce that trait before it actually becomes plot relevant.

>>386822910
How are they going to get through the waves of SeeD that protect her? Also she's still a sorceress so she doesn't need a GF to use magic.

It's almost like this theory is poorly thought out or something.

>>386823072
>How are they going to get through the waves of SeeD that protect her?
They're not gonna protect her forever.

Remember for the storyline with Ultimecia to work, people have to still FUCKING HATE sorceresses even after the end of the game.

>Also she's still a sorceress so she doesn't need a GF to use magic.
Then why does Ultimecia junction Griever ("the ultimate GF") to herself?

>>386822707
Nobody has to learn the truth right off the bat! What we, the audience, have to learn is that Tifa would be hesitant to correct Cloud's testimony before Cloud gives testimony that is vital to the story. Tifa "acting squirrely" about their past doesn't tell us that she'd let him lie. That's the entire issue here. Square's pattern is to have characters "acting squirrely" and thinking that is adequate foreshadowing. It isn't. That's not how foreshadowing works and why so many of their plot twists look like ass pulls.

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>>386814178
1/2

>>386823182
You are seriously fucking retarded. Sorceresses are a big deal because they can use magic naturally. Edea used magic naturally, Adel used magic naturally, and even fucking Ultimecia used magic naturally in the first part of her boss fight.

>>386822859
So basically an unquantifiable trait?

>>386822874
Squall still killed her in the end. How does she command all this power and it only never works when in favor of the protagonists?

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>>386814178
2/2

>>386823329
>You are seriously fucking retarded
No you are for not realizing that even sorceress' like Ultimecia junction GFs to themselves to augment their power.

You're talking like it gives them zero benefit which is nonsense.

>>386818934
The argument is that every single bit of evidence in game says she is, however some jackass who worked on the game said categorically that she is not.

>>386823424
Ultimecia junctioned herself to Griever, not the other way around.

>You're talking like it gives them zero benefit

It does.

>>386812125
squal is rinoa which is the final boss which is death as soon as you kill it with your stupid death squal. It is possible to read too much random shit into things that was never planned or wanted and its also possible that most of the random crap is only there to make everything appear deeper and fool idiots into making grand conspiracies when in reality they writters wrote themselves against a wall.
The best example of this is neon genesis evangelion there are video interviews out there asking the dude why this why that why so obscure and the answer was bascially to make it appear deep/pretentious.. the fans do the rest and finish your crappy broken story for you lol

>>386823483
Maybe it was on purpose. I mean here we are, nearly 20 years later, still talking about the game. Is it possible that the writers at Square came up with a perfect explanation for the batshit story, buried it just deep enough into the narrative so that it wouldn't be obvious and that players would feel clever for discovering it, only to then deny that it exists so as to fuel discussion about the game and keep it relevant in the public eye to generate free publicity for the franchise even decades down the line?

Or are they just too retarded to write a cohesive story

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>>386823363

I'm 60% sure that sorceresses in FF8 just had crazy powers of suggestion / manipulation. Why does no one ever mention the Galbadia carnival scene, where Edea melts the president and everyone starts cheering. Seifer and Squall both did crazy about-turns in personality as soon as they encountered sorceresses (or rather, when Rinoa inherited sorceress powers).

Part of the reason people still talk about FF8 is that the English translation missed a lot of subtleties, and there was generally a lot of room for interpretation.

>>386823590
>Ultimecia junctioned herself to Griever, not the other way around.
That's merely semantics. You could also argue that Squall junctions himself onto Shiva or whatever because Shiva is a more powerful being, as a GF and all.

>It does.
Right except that's contradicted by Ultimecia doing it and getting a big power boost.

>>386816251
Ultimecia doesn't know the party defeats her in the past, just that they are supposed to defeat her. Compressing time in her mind is meant to ensure her defeat never occurs, unaware that her efforts at staving off her death at Squall's hands are precisely what brings it about.

>>386822707
You can't just have Cloud be the unreliable narrator in that sequence, though. Cloud gets a lot of foreshadowing that he's not right in the head thanks to his freakouts. But Tifa is also essentially an unreliable narrator in the flashback and we get fuck all foreshadowing for her. The most we get is that she's nebulously awkward about Cloud, which makes sense since we know there's something wrong with him. To be told later on "Nuh uh! She was hiding info too!" is dumb as fuck.

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>>386812125
>Ultimecia is bascially one of the hottest FF females
>Almost no porn of her
It just doesn't make any sense

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You would have to be a brainlet to think that, irrespective of whether it made it into the final story, that R=U wasn't at some point planned for the storyline during development.

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>>386823740
Yeah I remember the time Squall junctioned Ifrit and turned into a horrific amalgamation of man and beast. Totally just semantics.

>>386823803
Cloud's mental instability is hinted at in the first fucking hour when he freaks out about the Reactor and his inner voice tells him "This isn't just a reactor" and then there's the time he freaks out and flashes back to when Tifa declared she hated SOLDIER and SHINRA because they ruined her family and life.

>>386823963
I really don't think so because I honestly think that a twist like that would be too clever for Square to have thought up. The only reason the theory exists at all is because the story as it is has gaping plot holes you could drive a truck through. If they were competent enough to concoct a twist that compelling they'd have written a better story for the final game.

>>386823690
>Seifer starts the game as a whiny dickhead with delusions of grandeur
>Seifer remains a whiny dickhead with delusions of grandeur throughout the whole game

Yeah man, totally mind control. Has nothing to do with the fact that Seifer is a punk that would suck your dick if you told him it'd make him a cool knight.

>>386824010
We know from the game that even minor exposure to GFs causes health problems (i.e. memory loss). So people are too afraid to go all the way and junction themselves fully onto their GFs.

Ultimecia at that stage doesn't give a fuck, so she does it, suffering an enormous consequence to her body by becoming deformed.

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VIII thread?


Is Hein "the Great Hyne?"

>>386824083
Why do you keep talking about Cloud when the issue is Tifa? Nobody is questioning that Cloud is given enough foreshadowing that he would tell a bogus story. The issue is why Tifa would keep her mouth shut. That is not foreshadowed. Like at ALL.

>>386824184
Now you're just making shit up and won't even try to support your retarded idea.

I actually like the U=R theory. Not because it's inherently correct (hell it's even disproven if that one guy is to be believed) but because of the sheer amount of fun and interesting conversation it has sparked on the topic.

>>386824240
Juno and the Gold Saucer date.

>>386823002
She's worried about what calling him out would result in and according to the game she was right. Cloud loses his shit and starts begging Hojo for a number so he'd have an identity.

>>386823252
Once again, that's what Cloud's inner voice is there for. To raise the questions that Tifa is afraid of.

>>386824240
Because Cloud is the unreliable narrator, who the party is looking to for answers because he has the closest ties to Shinra and Sephiroth

>>386823002
You're only saying it's lies because of later knowledge though, for one thing the fact she gets Cloud to tell the Nibelheim story himself shows that she's not confident in either of their memories of what happened, but she's asking questions throughout it without pressing too much, which makes sense considering what we find out happened on the last day. She later even says that she partly wasn't confident in her memories of Cloud but just wanted to go along with his wild ride because she wants to stay with him, already shown right when she's first introduced.
Also, why would Cloud go apeshit for lying or being wrong about something? In this part of the story he's still trying to keep up the Soldier 1st Class persona, only things that directly challenge that would potentially have some kind of effect, and even then he's constructed such a strong image of himself that it takes Jenova mindfuckery for him to start falling apart.

>>386824276
Not making shit up. The game itself back ups that exposure to GFs is harmful - and all the party do is junction for extra stats and summon the GF out every so often.

Not merge themselves entirely with their GF. Nobody tries that except Ultimecia.

>>386812125
I think the real question is did Seifer pop Rinoa's cherry and Squall got his sloppy seconds?

>>386824395
Find at least three instances where the game mentions multiple levels of junctioning. Go.

>>386812125

The "evidence" and "hints" at Rinoa being the ultimate cunt (which she is anyway) may be remnants of an old draft for the story where she really was a villain or something.

Like how FF7 was about Aerith trying to find her brother Sephiroth, and the whole detective thing. In the end her and Sephiroth did end up connected in some way, as well as Cloud, just not as originally imagined.

I also believe Rinoa is not quite right, but it's my belief against what the staff says is true, and they made the damn game, so yeah.

>>386824240
But it is clearly foreshadowed that she's hiding something. I don't think the reason why really matters, though for what it's worth, I'm fairly certain that she mentions at least a couple times that she doesn't want to focus on the past and she just wants to focus on spending time with Cloud in the present. And she's right, whatever holes Cloud's story had were never relevant up until shit hit the fan and they had to piece his broken mind back together. It could only have turned out badly if she had pressed it, and the story makes it clear that she's aware of that.

>>386824423

They spent a "youthful summer together". And what do two handsome/beautiful 18 year olds who are madly in love with each other do during the summer months where the heat encourages skimpy dressing?

>>386824507
>Sorceress Ultimecia: "The GF's true power...To show you...! Griever! Make them bleed!"

>true power
>implying normal junctioning isn't true power

>>386822357
boypussy

I actually really dig that FF8 can be theorized about even to this day.

What I want to know is what the fuck Elone's deal was. She had the ability to send people forward and backward in time, right?

But why? As far as I can tell, this is the one thing in that game that's never even hinted at.

Is Elone the only one who can do it? If yes, why? If no, who else and why?

Elone is a fucking mystery that's barely touched on at all and it pisses me off.

>>386816247
Why does Selfie make my dick so hard?

>>386824692
Said when Griever uses Shockwave Pulsar. Has nothing to do with junctioning.

Why didn't they just keep a diary?

>>386824981
This is the only time in the game that a person is able to use a GF for longer than just a few seconds.

Do you really need everything to be spelled out by the game? Are you seriously nothing more than a brainlet?

>>386825017

Because most people in that universe, as in this universe, don't. And hell even then the concept of GF's fucking with your memory is heavily implied to be made up bullshit and the students are told thus.

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>>386823963
>tfw to inteligence for headcanon

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>>386825049
There are multiple examples of GF existing independently. Try again.

>>386824240
She actually does the opposite from the moment Cloud gets back. She reinforces the idea that he made it to Soldier, so that he'll stay with her and so they can stop Shinra.
Why are we talking about FFVII in here when there's that other thread?

>>386825203
Yeah but not after they have a human master

>>386825258
Ultimecia was Griever's master from the moment she created it.

A couple problems there. First, those happen after the flashback. Foreshadowing happens, ya know...fore.

Second, you listed two events and one is optional.

I also don't remember Tifa being anything but vaguely dodgy in more than two or three scenes. Everywhere else in what amounts to probably 40 hours before the reveal she acts normal. So there's a volume issue too. It's pretty silly for Square to write a major twist and then point to a handful of vaguely weird moments within a sea of normal ones and be like "SEE! We hinted at it all along!"

It's especially a problem in games like FFVII and FFVIII because the main characters have specific quirks about them that would justify their party members' shiftiness even if there were no big twist. Cloud didn't have to be lying in the flashback for Tifa to act strangely around him since we know Cloud was acting weird himself.

And again, there are no specific character traits introduced. "Hey, remember that foreshadowing that could relate to just about ANY twist? Well it relates to this one!" Cloud lying about the flashback? Tifa acted dodgy about their past! Cloud is a subterranean lizard person? Tifa acted dodgy about their past!

>>386816247
woo hoo

>>386814379
I bet you say Jraphics instead of Graphics like the author of .GIF "intended" it

>>386824354
>She's worried about what calling him out would result in

Dude, we are NEVER told that's on her mind before the twist. I'm pointing out kinks in the plot structure and you're just reciting the storyline back. Nobody has an issue with what the plot IS, the problem is how the plot is STRUCTURED. Cloud's inner voice tells us jack shit about Tifa's motivations. Cloud being an unreliable narrator tells us nothing about Tifa's motivations.

>>386825413
>It's pretty silly for Square to write a major twist and then point to a handful of vaguely weird moments within a sea of normal ones and be like "SEE! We hinted at it all along!"

They opted for the quick, hotter burn to get a larger reaction out of the player. They really double down on it during the trek through the northern crater.

>>386816610
Patrician taste

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>>386825573
>Dude, we are NEVER told that's on her mind before the twist

You sure bro?

>>386824372
The way the foreshadowing happens isn't important so much as it happens at all. We find out later on that Tifa had doubts about the story and didn't actually question Cloud as he told his version (let's be real here, her periodic interjections were not sufficient and seemed more like color commentary since Barret was also talking). What we don't learn, though, is why any of this even was allowed to happen until after it happened. What we got was an info dump of Tifa's personality traits only once the twist happened. That shit should have been laid out in plain english much earlier.

>>386825231
>Why are we talking about FFVII in here when there's that other thread?

A tangent to explain why there's nothing strange about FFVIII. Square was always terrible at foreshadowing plot twists. FFVIII just gets extra hate because amnesia twists are inherently dumb.

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>>386825781
wew lad

I belive Griever is the strongest tie between Rinoa and Ultimacia.

People can make all sorts of assumptions based on the two women's appearance and their symbolic differences and stuff, but at the end of the day the strongest link to me will always be:
>Squall has a symbol, it's a Lion called Griever
>Rinoa has a deep fascination with Griever when she hears about it
>player gets to name Griever
>when you fight Ultimecia, she makes you fight Griever (or whatever name the player gave him)

You can rub some of that off, as coincidence, but the thickest tie (IMO) is the naming. The fact that you can name the lion and that this name is reflected in the boss. This is not some random monstrous entity.

This is literally the creature Squall though to be a lion, down to the name, whatever that name might be set by the player. The fact that through the entire game the player is allowed to set that name to whatever he wants and then Squall tells that name to only ONE other person, and that deity showing up in the final battle EXACTLY as the player named it is too much to overlook for me.

I belive that the reason the player gets to name the lion is because it's literally something made up on the fly. Griever is never mentioned by anyone except Squall throughout the game, because he was the one who invented the name. And that name is never mentioned to anyone but Rinoa.

But what, somehow Ultimecia knows it?

Good thread. Also doesn't Squall die at the end of disc 1? You dont even see him dancing in the final fmv and Rinoh is on the balcony by herself.

>>386826223

fuck off

>>386825975
Dude, that line tells us literally jack. Why is it so hard to understand that vague allusions to a character hiding something is not good foreshadowing? This is Square's problem in a nutshell and affects Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, everything. They have these moments where characters start to say something then either slide into vague allusions to something not being right or just clam up entirely. It tells us nothing about how these characters behave. It tells us SOMETHING is coming but once it comes there's nothing to look back at and think "oh, yeah, that's totally in line with the character." If Cloud fell from space 5 years ago Tifa's line there would still be perfectly fitting. Fucking ANYTHING can be a twist when all you do is have your characters act nebulously shady.

>>386826223
>Rinoa is on the balcony by herself
Did you forget squall was there or something? You literally see him and rinoa together on the balcony. Even if you follow the "squall is dead" thing, why would she gesture like she's talking to someone if she's alone?

>>386826223
Squall almost dies but Ultimecia/Rinoa saves him by transforming him into Griever and sending him to an alternate timeline.

Does Ultimecia mention Squall by name?

If not it lends itself well to the theory that her Rinoa's memory is so lost by the GF use that she literally does nor remember him.

Or you could see it the other way as her not knowing Squall was perfectly natural: she never actually met the guy before the final battle.

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>>386826324
How about the rest of the dialog? That good enough for you skipper?

>>386824132
>I really don't think so because I honestly think that a twist like that would be too clever for Square to have thought up.
That's usually the reason I don't buy into a lot of fan theories. The stories they're about often tend to be as subtle as a brick through a window, and I can never get past the thought of "if these fucking hack-jobs actually wanted to do a twist like that, there wouldn't be any arguing because they would have spelled it out plain as day"
see: Indoctrination Theory

>>386826324
That may be true if the only time there was any allusion to Cloud's past was Tifa's unease and insistence on his story, but there's also everything else that happens in the game.

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Would you play a sequel/spin-off of FF8 following the down-spiral of Rinoa and the dealing with the inevitability of time?

>>386826626
I would play any sequel, spin-off or fanmod with enough quality on it.

>>386825573
Do you get frustrated any time someone has covert motivations? You must not watch a lot of TV dramas.

The game clearly shows Cloud spazzing out at certain points when other people are around, Barret and Tifa question him about it specifically on their bombing run. Rather than question why Tifa is occasionally squirrely around Cloud who clearly has something going on, I'm curious as to why Cloud is spazzing out and having this voice talk to him in the middle of things.

>>386826324
To further the issue, look at all the FFVIII theories abound. Squall is dead, Rinoa is Ultimecia, etc. You know why they can exist? Because Square doesn't know how to fucking write. They think setting up a plot twist means having otherwise normal characters say something cryptic four or five times over the course of 20 hours worth of game. All these fishing expeditions for plot twists are enabled because nothing is ever concrete with these jokers. Since the characters holding the keys to the twist never commit to anything, then the twist can be literally anything. And it all holds water because no matter how obscure the justifications, the actually in-game plot's justifications are just as obscure. Suddenly any random NPC's poorly translated dialogue becomes evidence of a twist.

>>386826120
It literally says in the Scan spell, that the Griever you fight in Ultimacia battle, was a being that was taken from Squall's mind.
The monster you fought was the equivalent of the Stay Puft Marshmallow man from Ghostbusters.

>>386826808
>You know why they can exist?

Autism and a desire for internet fame.

>>386826683

Honestly, me too. If someone did a fanmade spin-off more focused on the U=R theory. Hell even direct sequel that went much deeper and much darker into the grieving mind of Rinoa after failing to pass on her powers and out-living Squall.

>>386826409
Twist: Cloud is a crab person in a human suit.

Tifa: "You really, really are..... you... right?"

Literally ANYTHING. It's not foreshadowing if the foreshadowing can apply to any random twist. This tells us nothing about why Tifa would let Cloud tell a bullshit story.

>>386827056
autism

>>386827056
>It's not foreshadowing if the foreshadowing can apply to any random twist.

You're judging her lines in a vacuum. Foreshadowing doesn't work without proper context.

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>>386812125

>someone involved in creation of the game
>"game theorists"

Gee, that's a tough one.

BUT HEY

Here's an interesting tidbit.

>last thing Ultimecia ever says is:
Reflect on your... childhood... your sensation... your words... your emotions....... Time... it will not wait... no matter... how hard you hold on... it escapes you... and......."

Now take that and combine it with the absolute first text the game introduces to you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2LCSzmjPj8

>>386826739
The big difference is that in an hour long TV drama the story follows a clear three act structure and the characters who might have covert motivations usually do something or are in a position that would clue the audience into what those motivations might be. Often the show will set up a red herring as well as the real motive but once the resolution happens the real motive tends to have been recognizably established in Act 1. It would actually make a shitty episode if the first 20 minutes was the target character acting vaguely suspicious. In fact, a character acting vaguely suspicious without the audience being able to come to a conclusion of why they're acting suspicious probably means THEY are the red herring.

Again, the problem isn't that Tifa is acting weird. It's that she doesn't have an established character trait that the twist can exploit. The only thing that the twist rests on is "Tifa was acting weird."

>>386827401
That's fucking scary. Even the "..." shit matches up. It sounds like it's coming straight from her. And the fact that her last words end on "and". Ugh.

>>386818486
Chaika syndrome

That VIII's story is such a mess that these retarded theories seem somewhat legit.

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For all of you fags that hated enemy scaling, enjoy this mod. It rebalances the game and removes enemy scaling.

http://www.insanedifficulty.com/board/index.php?/topic/8109-final-fantasy-viii-pc-requiem-v229/

>>386827401

Holy shit never thought of that. The intro to the game and all those weird sentences never did make much sense...

>>386827401
Oh my fucking god that makes sense.

>>386823312
>>386823363
Because that is really annoying to read, found source

https://pastebin.com/H4rLjJ0U

>>386827685
Don't kid yourself. They were never meant to make sense. "Clever writing" to Square means "obtuse philosophical nonsense." The stories aren't actually complicated, Square just doesn't like telling you what they are and want to play pretend at being high art literature. FFVIII, Chrono Cross, Kingdom Hearts...it's all the same shit. Characters talk like they're reading a water damaged copy of Nietzsche run through Google translate.

>>386818486
lost in translation, she was being fancy and concise, only speaking words that were kanji, no extra fluff grammar

unfortunately her screaming single words in capital letters in english just made her seem like she was deaf

>>386812125
>What should we believe?
What the fucking staff says.
If you think R=U is more interesting than the actual story, then great. Good for you.
As long as you keep it at that, and don't try to fucking delude yourself into thinking that your 'headcanon' is the true story and try and share it as fucking gospel.
The second you do that, you turn into a matpat-tier faggot and nobody should listen to anything you say.

>>386827902

They do make sense if you play them out right after Ultimecia's last lines. Of course this is a slippery slope. "t" and "h" and "e" will always make a word that makes sense in English if you put them right after each other.

>>386827401
>>386827514
>>386827685
>>386827796

I'm not fucking seeing it. Can you be more specific?

The words in the opening is the oath that Squall gives Rinoa on disc 3 (?) so they'll meet at the Lighthouse.

>>386825093
>generations of child soldiers using GFs
>memory loss is a known thing, even if not confirmed
>not a single person proposes keeping a diary to test ad record its effects for science

Last I checked, we didn't have GFs with recorded instances of memory loss from overusage either.

>>386828376

Not any of those guys but yeah, it's the oath, but that's not his point (I think). It sounds like a continuation. You also probably need to accept that Ultimecia's dying words are some of her memories about Squall as Rinoa and some of them are of Ultimecia.


>Reflect on your... childhood... your sensation... your words... your emotions... Time... it will not wait... no matter... how hard you hold on... it escapes you... and....
>I'll be here... Why...? I'll be waiting... here... For what? I'll be waiting... for you... so... if you come here... you'll find me.

It doesn't make an incredible lot of sense and the guy's probably just reaching, but the grammar does line up at least and it's not like the words don't sound like they could be part of the same conversation.

I actually got around watching this game on SGDQ and holy shit I thought FF7 was one of the worst older FF's but FF8 takes the cake. What a piece of shit game.

>>386828618
Hmm. Okay. If Ultimecia's death had a similar CGI video and her last words appearing in the same way on the screen, then I'd buy it and that would be fucking rad.

>>386828861

Ehr, agree. It would be amazing if there was a little more evidence supporting it. But as it stands it's just a slightly entertaining coincidence to me at least.

Don't get me wrong, a fun coincidence, but a coincidence non the less.

>>386814819
>Death of the author
kill yourself

>>386828618

That "continuation" makes almost no sense though, if it wasn't for the "and..." then it would make pretty much no sense.

>>386827469
>In fact, a character acting vaguely suspicious without the audience being able to come to a conclusion of why they're acting suspicious probably means THEY are the red herring.

Maybe you should think about that for a bit, lol.

Except Rinoa can literally fight Ultimecia

>>386829239

True, but the "and..." is there. So it does make some sense. Of course this is at the end of the day just some guy grasping at straws so what do I know?

>>386828618
>>386829239


>Reflect on your... childhood... your sensation... your words... your emotions... Time... it will not wait... no matter... how hard you hold on... it escapes you... and....
>I'll be here.... I'll be waiting... here... I'll be waiting... for you... so... if you come here... you'll find me.

Fixed. Now it makes sense.

Who the hell was NORG? Did he own Balam Garden? Was he the boss of it? I remember thinking that Cid was the top guy and then NORG shows up

Also, why didn't everyone ride on hoverboards?

>>386829239
I'd go a step further and say the lines don't make much sense even when taken separately. Square's idea of "deep" is "be as cryptic as possible."

>>386827660

FF8 doesn't need a rebalancing to save it (sure it needs a rebalancing TOO, but that's not the most dire problem with FF8).

FF8 needs a complete, from the ground up re-write.

>>386826329
In the final fmv no he isnt

>>386829435

That actually does make sense, but now it does not line up so well with the oath Squall gave. You version does make a lot more sense in terms of sentence flow though.

>>386818205
>>386817882

It wasn't that the game didn't tell you that using Guardians causes memory loss, it was stupid that all these people don't remember each other.

They lived together in an orphanage. Then gate another member to join who does remember that lived together and he doesn't say anything till the story calls for it. The headmaster of your school even knows and never brings it up. They all forgot the exact same memories at the same time and just remember all of a sudden? That's just plain stupid.

>>386829445

NORG was the money. NORG was suppose to be the silent investor who sat in the background and made money from Cid.

But Cid was too idealistic and ended up not making NORG shit.

The reason for the rebellion was that Cid was the face of the Garden but NORG strictly speaking owned it.

>>386829445
Cid borrowed money from him to build the garden. That's about as far as it goes.

>>386812125
>Square canon
Honestly Square has tendency to shoot itself in the foot when they have interesting story ideas by establishing a less interesting canon

Making Cloud an emo faggot and Sephiroth a generic edgelord in Advent Children, retroactively ruins FFVII for alot of people. I hope to god Nomura gives the remake a tone similar to the original, but each character's depiction in KH says otherwise.

>>386829975
Everyone they put into Kingdom Hearts comes out worse. The KH team clearly doesn't take the time to check backstory or personalities before adding people.

>>386829795
If anything it makes the amnesia dumber because of how hilariously specific it is. Sure, GFs make people forget the kids they grew up with but they have no problem remembering their SeeD assignments, or the locations of cities around the world, or the bazillion other things a person needs to remember to be a functional citizen in modern society. Nope, just these few specific people.

>>386830192
They based it around how real amnesia works, except that works by blocking out traumatic events whereas FF8 amnesia blocked out childhood because we really want to use power of friendship as a plot point for some reason.

It feels like they wrote themselves into a corner and then had to go back to revise the story to squeeze in the orphanage twist to escape it. I just don't see that plot point coming up in the first draft.

Square doesn't know how to write a second act. They just leave the early game's plot threads hanging forever and then quickly shore them up in the final stretch. Squall's personality change happens instantly after you save Rinoa in space. He just flips like a lightswitch.

>why doesn't Ultimecia recognise herself?
>why doesn't Ultimecia notice anything when possessing herself?
>why doesn't Ultimecia recognise Squall?
>why does Rinoa gain height and longer arms and beast feet over time?
>why does Rinoa change her name?

Ultimecia has no guardian forces junctioned to her. She is a sorceress, and sorceresses wield magic naturally. Griever is created during the final battle, it does not exist previously. Ultimecia's actions have no relation to Rinoa's motivations. The whole theory is retarded, the game doesn't do anything to set up an ambiguous tragic ending. This bullshit only exists because of a split second of Ultimecia's face in the ending FMV.

>>386830903
>This bullshit only exists because of a split second of Ultimecia's face in the ending FMV.
I think a lot of this wouldn't have been an issue had Square not been so staunchly against voice acting in their FMV scenes. It makes major events in FFVII and FFVIII's endings feel like mind screws when they probably weren't supposed to be.

My only complain with this game is the FUCKING LEVEL SCALING
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

>>386831406
Just dont level up your guys and it makes the game a piece of cake. Turn everything into a card and its' smooth sailing

>>386829975

This. Square should honestly just roll with it every now and then. Like when theories like these pop up which make the game infinitely more interesting.

If I was Square I'd just roll with it, and say "hey someone finally figured it out! Woo!".

But they're too proud, stubborn and/or stupid for that and would rather let a game die in stupid mediocrity.

>>386831406
>oh no, a level 100 Bite Bug
>how will I ever overcome its 2500 health?
>fuck scaling and fuck this game forever

>>386814645
>Send quistis because she has a whip she can lower to her
>She doesn't

????

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>>386816247
>tfw no selphie gf

>>386831406
Always hear the same argument, despite the level scaling only carrying until set caps on each enemy.

>>386830903
>Griever is created during the final battle, it does not exist previously.
That has no impact on the R=U theory. It's still a GF that Ultimecia created that Squall told the name to nobody but Rinoa at a very early part of the game.

Even the name of the GF supports the R=U. The reason Ultimecia summons Griever is because Rinoa (as Ultimecia) is unconsciously 'grieving' over the death of Squall her, sorceress' knight.

>>386831828
Then why doesn't the game tell us any of that? This isn't some side issue, it's the main antagonist's primary motivation. That kind of thing shouldn't be left for the player to figure out on their own.

>>386817182
Quistis is beatiful and she practically throws herself at Squall and he rejects her like a huge faggot.
Quistis is best girl, Rinoah a shit! A SHIT!

>>386832020
She explains she only does that out of sisterly/motherly affection, it's explained on the beach during the orphanage flashback.

>>386832081
Well, Squall is still a fag for not hitting that and Rinoah is still a shit.

>>386831406
What the fuck is people's problem with that?

I beat the game as a fucking 12 year old and never had a single issue, didn't even grind. I am legit curious.

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>FF8
A warning sign for things to come.

>>386832081
>sisterly/motherly affection
That's another reason FFVIII is so dumb. It actually can't decide what Quistis even is. She's a whole year older than everyone else but is somehow the team mom. She openly flirts with Squall on disc 1 but then decides that she isn't really into him like that. She's supposed to be super mature but then decides to abandon her post during a critical mission to apologize to Rinoa for a minor slight.

>>386831938
I personally think that it was the original plot later dropped because Square executives wanted the game to end happily rather than a tragedy.

Even in the game we got, Ultimecia's motives are completely unknown. That indicates that Square just erased any parts which explictly confirmed she was Rinoa while leaving the rest of the game intact.

Some actually interpret the final encounter with Griever as being made from the mind of the old Squall, rather than the young one who fights her.

>>386832261
Becaus most people grinded in the island closest to heaven/hell and then found out that you're not supposed to grind many years later? What games do you know that punish you for grinding, I can only think of FF8 and The Last Remnant.

>>386832406
Why start grinding if the game is piss easy? Do shitters have some kind of self defense instinct that tells them to mindlessly go grinding without need when you start an RPG?

>>386832503
Not everyone played 10 years after release retard. The game doesn't say anywhere that levelling is detrimental. I played FF8 on release.

>>386832403
The game ending tragically would make even less sense I think. The game's story is actually pretty upbeat through most of the game. Finding out Rinoa is Ultimecia and oh shit the world is fucked would be way too an abrupt shift in tone.

>>386824010
>implying the Ultimecia/Griever merge wasn't foreshadowed by the game

>Rinoa: "So that's what you call it. You know Zell said he'll make me one exactly like it. Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too. That'd be crazy, huh!? I mean, everyone might, y'know, get the wrong idea about us."

>Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too.

Square is great at writing an outline of a plot. Once they have to write it out in long form they fuck it up.

>>386832538
Nice reading comprehension.
Where the fuck did I imply I was playing it 10 years after release? I played through it in a fucking 2001 or so, cmopletely blind, obviously and never had a problem with it. Stop being a retard yourself.

>>386832680
It's completely against an RPGs design to NOT grind. Fuck off with your bullshit lies.

>>386832632
>Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too.

I think she just meant metaphorically, like being proud and strong,. Not literally becoming a lion.

>>386832724
>bwaaaah I am so shit I have to go grind instinctively every time I start a game

>>386817882
Irvine didn't use GFs until he joined your party so he never had long term exposure.

So Ultimecia gets stronger every cycle, right? Take any cycle and let's call it the first. In this cycle Rinoa gets Edea's and Adel's powers which will eventually find itself towards Ultimecia who creates a new cycle after defeat and passes her powers to Edea.
That would mean this new Edea now has the powers of 1st cycle Edea and Adel.
Following that every new cycle would mean Ult's power is increased by one Sorceress. There should come an eventual loop with the party losing spectacularly.

I would love if they actually reinforced it in the game and made Squall's sudden personality flip canonically justified by Rinoa brainwashing him.

>>386832753
Use of metaphors in foreshadowing is a common literary technique

>>386832789
>Bwaaaah I have to lie on the internet to make myself look smarter because I'm just a retard irl

>>386814819
You are fucking retarded.
The author can be a fucking braindead but he wrote that character (as retarded as he wants)

>>386832403
Not only do you try to explain the game's story by blindly guessing what must've happened during development, but you also conclude that the absence of something means it was erased rather than it never existed to begin with. You're making too many leaps while ignoring the game as it exists.

>>386833017
Nothing in the actual game contradicts the theory though. And there are too many things in the game that hint towards it.

Obviously if this shit was explicitly spelled out we wouldn't be having a debate.

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>>386832876
Yeah, nah. My argument actually has some weight. You're just spouting angry bullshit because you're mad I called you out on being a dumb casual piece of shit who grinds in every game assuming by default that it's going to be impossible to beat otherwise.

>>386833079
Its just too consequential a change for it to have been there at one time without the game needing a nearly full rewrite to remove it.

ITT: my game is so shit that i have to invent a new plot to enjoy it

Remember how the game inconsequentially drops the information that Seifer and Rinoa had a relationship? And like absolutely nothing is done with this information. Seemingly useless background info.

But then Seifer is Ultimecia's sorceress knight. Hmm...

>>386827401
I love this quote

FFVIII has the most mysterious and probably creepiest story out of all the games. The whole thing really does have a dreamlike quality to it

>>386832954
He's retarded, but not because he's heard of Death of the Author. The real reason is because he's inventing too much stuff that can't be derived from the story, and cherrypicking bits of narrative instead of formulating a cohesive interpretation. Ultimecia is linked to multiple characters thematically, visually and in pure plot connections. She has no special relationship with Rinoa, but she does with Squall because of the obvious protagonist-antagonist dynamic. There is a distinct lack of the game implying through textual or visual means that Rinoa and Ultimecia are the same person, in fact it's the opposite. One loves Squall and wants to save him, the other has no personal interest in Squall and tries to kill him as part of a greater conflict. I suppose this is 'too' obvious for people and they complicate things for the hell of it.

>>386833210
I wish Zero Time Dilemma had these fan theories so I could pretend it was good closure

>>386833264
Seifer only thinks hes Ultimecias knight. Problem being he doesent know what a sorcerers knight means and Ultimecia isnt going to tell him he isnt a knight. Seifer thinks being a sorcerers knight is to protect them from danger through being a hero like in that movie where Laguna was, where as a real sorcerers knight is closer to Cid, Edeas husband.

>>386833493
>the other has no personal interest in Squall and tries to kill him as part of a greater conflict
Funny how Ultimecia doesn't actually kill Squall at the end of Disk 1 when she absolutely had the chance huh

IAMALIVEHEREIWILLNEVERLETYOUFORGETABOUTME

>>386833596
I think that's more explainable as Seifer being both too immature for a proper relationship with Rinoa (hence why he got dumped) and thus too immature to know the real meaning of being a sorceress' knight.

>>386812125
the guy on the staff

>>386833597
What if Edea's spirit interfered? What if Squall was kept alive for interrogation as he was the apparent leader of the SEED team and therefore the most valuable prisoner? Both of these are less far-fetched, and they don't have weird contradictions like the fact that Ultimecia gives absolutely no shits when she meets Squall in person, despite supposedly going insane over losing him if we assume the theory is legit.

>>386822261
You see nibelheim get burnt down in the flashback Tifa acts weird about. Then you GO to nibelheim and everything looks normal and both Tifa and Cloud freak out about it. When you talk to people in town they say they've been living there for generations and don't know who you are. Barret then gets squirrely about Clouds story but Tifa assures him it happened but seems even more confused. The game drops a lot of hints along the way about how everything isn't as it seems and though cloud is unreliable, it's still setting up plot points later. If they came out and told you he wasn't reliable there would be little suprise, likewise if you could find out about the Ancients and Jenova before encountering Sephiroth who thinks he is the rightful heir to the planet when he is not.

Even the villain of the game is hopelessly mislead for most of it.

>>386833597
>>386833875
Ultimecia doesent actually know who is going to kill her in the end so she thought it was more important to torture Squall for information on SEED. Edea would know Squall is destined to kill Ultimecia but Ultimecia doesent know anything Edea knows while possessing her. Basically for Ultimecia Squall was just some piece of shit SEED she hates and nothing special.

>>386832367
I want Zero to slap me in the face with her beef curtains

>Elone can only send back people in time she's met
>she sends Rinoa back in time at a point in the game even though she's never met her
>Elone, however, has already met Ultimecia through Edea

Explain this, my R=U denying friends