Who deserves the most blame for Rare's downfall? >Microsoft

themselves, they were never that good.

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>>386780425
Nintendo. They would have bought them entirely if Miyamoto wasn't butthurt about a bunch of gaijins blowing him the fuck out with his own character.

>>386780570
(You) are entitled to your incorrect opinion

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>>386780830
>Miyamoto wasn't butthurt about a bunch of gaijins blowing him the fuck out with his own character.
>This shitty ass fake rumor again

>>386780425

The problem is that Rare hasn't made a single game that's part of their original series except the new series to judge them by

Ghoulies, Kameo and Viva Piñata were great on their own right

Nuts and Bolts was a banjo game changed by Microsoft thinking the genre is dead

The only real comparison was Killer Indtinct but that wasn't even made by them

>>386780425
Miyamoto fucked them over with Star Fox Adventures.

>>386780940
>changed by Microsoft
Rare decided to change the direction, not MS.

No doubt it was Microsoft. Talent like that doesn't just evaporate when an enormous company with basically limitless funds buys you unless they completely fuck up on management.

Rare was responsible.
>wanting to focus on more adult mature games
>not listening to their previous success

basically the same shit as naughty dog, except not as successful.

>>386781106
>Talent like that doesn't just evaporate
but as >>386780940 said, they still made some good games under MS. Most people say Rare's downfall happened when they left Nintendo, but I don't think they truly went downhill until they embraced the Kinect.

Nuts and Bolts is probably the most retarded decision they ever made.
Everybody just wanted an old fashioned plataformer, not that vehicle creation bullshit.

The downhill started with Nintendo.
DK64 was shit and Star Fox Adventures was an abomination.

>>386780425
Microsoft did. Had they stayed with nintendo, they would have still had some creative freedom (at least more than the tight leash microsoft has on them)

Rare.
A lot of talented people left the company before they even exited the N64 era and as a whole they grew complacent. Tooie was mediocre and DK64 and SFA were fucked from their fundamental design (yes, even the Dinosaur Planet version).

Nintendo isn't responsible for Rare's bumbling and Microsoft was extremely accommodating to them until they ended up with one success, a decent but flawed new UP nobody was interested, and like five abortions.

>>386782541
Honestly aside from the novelty of it being an M rated game (as well as very funny), I really don't think Conker was all that fun to play.

>>386782826
The people who made it don't think it's fun. The point of the game (post-"OH BOY ANOTHER CUTESY KIDDY GAME" reception) was quickly cobbling together a big "fuck you" at everyone. It's a farce of a game that hates you and itself. That's part of why it's funny.

>>386780931
What rumor? The one where he says that DKC proves people will put up with bad gameplay if the graphics are good? Because thats fake. But its obvious that his dumbass stubborn jap ass was just itching to get rid of them so nobody would realize that DKC was just a better version of Mario.

>>386782541
i found tooie amazing, the cut off point for me is dk64

>>386784647
Is that why they went on to produce a ton of Nintendo games unabated for 7 more years?

>>386782541
>Tooie was mediocre
Nice meme, nostalgiafag.
Tooie is better than Kazooie in every way.

>>386784715
Banjo-Tooie was released a year after Donkey Kong 64.

>>386784715
DK64 was sandwiched between the BK games

>>386781253
This.
They made some great games under MS, unfortunately, Xbox users weren´t interested in playing Rare games and Nintendo fans were afraid of using a controller that wasn´t a Wiimote. As a result, Rare´s games didn´t sell very well until Kinect Sports.

>>386784769
You think Miyamoto could have just said "firu themmu" and gotten his way then and there? Nintendo's rep would have been destroyed and all their second party devs would want out. No, Miyamoto likely complained about them for years and when the opportunity finally came up, his buttbuddy Iwata seized it and let them get bought out.

If OG rare were such masters why was Yooka laylee so shitty??

Also

Viva pinata is best rare game. Yes ive played the banjo games and conker's bad fur day, Viva pinata has better gameplay. In fact it has better everything.

>>386785117
>why was Yooka laylee so shitty??
It wasn't, you're just a parrot trying to fit in.

>>386785117
>why was Yooka laylee so shitty??
If Yooka-Laylee was released on the N64, it'd be hailed as a classic.

The old bags from Rare just haven't learned how to refine/polish the formula over the years.

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>>386784647
Miyamoto has never disliked Donkey Kong Country. He was involved in its development and contributed to the revival of the series.

>>386781028
That's not what I heard. Also why would Rare of all people take a nearly completed Banjo game, leave the world itself intact, but replace the content and game play entirely?

>>386780425
Vital Rare staff were leaving and Nintendo knew their quality-downfall was coming, and the latter isn't exactly big on dealing with the West, so of all the chains to cut Rare made sense to them. (That or there was more conflict caused over SFA/DinoPlanet than previously thought).

M$ gave them a chance but also saw they didn't "have it" in their current staff, atop Xbots wanting only GearsofHaloDuty, so into the Kinect-box they went.

>>386785051
Oh, yeah, that makes plenty of sense.
And he ordered the hit on Gunpei, right?

>>386784824
I played Tooie first, cunt.
It's just a padded, gimmicky version of the same shit. It's mediocre in the same way Mega Man X3 is.

>>386785117
As much as I liked Yooka-Laylee, I agree that the game got several problems (technical and game design).

Also, Playtonic being Rare 2.0 was such a big lie that some people wanted to believe(completely stupid considering that Gregg Mayles is still working in Rare on SoT).

>>386784824
Not the same guy, but I recently replayed both of them and enjoyed Kazooie much more. I like both of them a lot, still, but Banjo Tooie just had way less rewarding levels, and it all took ten times longer. It was way more challenging, though, which is a plus.

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>>386780425

Microsoft. Don't listen to anyone that tells you Rare was dying before Microsoft bought them. They have a track record for killing studios and franchises.

This year we're getting a new 2D Sonic, a 3D Mario, Crash came back, hell even Bubsy is back. Yet Microsoft can't be arsed to do anything with Banjo.

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>>386785117

Yooka-Laylee wasn't that bad. Just okay. Jontron parroting murdered this game.

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>Always thought "if nuts and bolts was a platformer it'd be so much better off"
>Yooka Laylee comes out
>Not very good

I don't know what to believe in anymore

>>386780425
Microsoft.

In nuts and bolts opening cutscene, theres the whole 'broader auidence' line. Microsoft was probably all over them on what to do. That said, stuff like viva pinata was lit.

Although in the end, it matters little, rare was a dying animal from a time past.

>>386785512

If by "Vital" Rare staff you mean most of the Goldeneye team. The Donkey team and Banjo teams, arguably the best fits for Nintendo, were still there. The Stampers just wanted to get bought out, and Nintendo didn't wanna bite at the huge price the Stampers were wanting.

>>386785526
>Muh retarded dev that has been ruining every series he's been involved with for the past 10 years couldn't have done anything stupid before
Don't forget that japs are stubborn, vindictive retards that don't like being shown up. There is no doubt in my mind that a version of that happened

>>386780425
ive spoke to a couple of rare devs in my time, and they say it was when the brothers left

>>386781253
Explain the Conquer remake, Grabbed by the Ghoulies. Those are the only two games developed by Rare for Microsoft before Kameo on the 360. They were both awful. Ghoulies was just a trash linear action game, and Live & Reloaded was soulless as hell, and is proof that better graphics don't make a remake better than the original.

In fact, from 2001-2005, all Rare really did was develop games for the GBA. The Donky Kong Country ports, a game titled Sabre Wolf, and a game titled It's Mr. Pants, and all of those games scored pretty high among users and critics alike.
>>386785012

>>386786140
>It couldn't be that Nintendo didn't see value in buying out a company where a good chunk of the talent just left and FUCKING MICROSOFT is eyeing them.
>IT MUST HAVE BEEN A CONSPIRACY BY THIS SINGULAR GOOK!!!

Do you realize how fucking stupid you sound? Did they flake out on Argonaut because of Miyamoto? He must be behind the death of Cing, too. Don't forget the fall of Skip! That's because they DARED to parody Miyamoto's work!

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>>386785051

>Ruined Star Fox Zero despite Platinum being involved
>Stripped Paper Mario of original characters and RPG elements
>Removed the Kremlings from Retro's DKs games
>Sold Mario film rights to Sony Pictures Animation, creators of the Emoji Movie.

Why do we like Miyamoto?

>>386785847
Minecraft probably replaced most of M$'s interest in older Rare-mascots, at least for now.

Also Rare themselves are still busy with their Pirate game.

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>>386786656

Meanwhile 90's nostalgia is hot and Microsoft is missing the boat on it. Because like they have always been since the original Xbox, they are incompetent.

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probably microsoft because microsoft

>>386785756
>but Banjo Tooie just had way less rewarding levels
The only portion of Kazooie that felt rewarding was the Engine Room in RBB. Everything else was really easy. Meanwhile beating CARAY FUCKING MARY was and is to this day a fucking triumph.
>and it all took ten times longer
Because the Jiggies weren't just laying around on the ground. You had to actually work for them. The level design was also extremely intricate and every level being connected made the whole game feel real and alive despite it being about a cartoon bear.

>>386785676
>padded
Wrong, there is no amount of padding in Tooie that makes the game unenjoyable.
>gimmicky
Explain. Because the only "gimmicks" were the transformations, which were again, a million times better than Kazooie's, in which ALL FIVE transformations were just size modifiers that made it so you could fit inside a hole that you couldn't before except for Termite (which served an equally boring purpose)

>>386786714
Microsoft doesn't believe in embracing anything but the future, and don't you dare tell them what's fucking hot right now. Innovation is all they care about, and they can't even fucking do that right.

>>386785117
An orchestra without their conductor + music sheets can only play what they remember.

Also Unity is the ghetto of game engines.

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>>386780940
>>386785351
>a banjo game changed by Microsoft thinking the genre is dead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R2sCzlT5Uc

You can thank Gregg Mayles.

>>386786998
If that's the case, then it's proof positive that Microsoft was the one that fucked over Banjo, because it sure as hell didn't feel like Banjo.

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>>386785117
Because Yooka-Laylee wasn't even made by HALF of the original Banjo team.

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>>386787151

>mfw people say Yooka-Laylee is shit because Gregg Mayles is still at Rare

Rare can keep him.

>>386785117
>>386787248
playtonic is like 60% artists, 30% people who worked on random Rareware/Rare games, 10% people who worked on b-k

>>386786121
Also The Stamper bros were fucking furious at Nintendo doing things like pulling publishing for the PAL version of Conkers BFD at the last minute as the carts were being printed and felt Nintendo had no faith in them as creators. The Stampers believed Nintendo would buy and were just fencing with Activison, THQ and MS. So much that Howard Lincoln drafted an agreement that Rare would hand over IP they created for existing Nintendo IP's like Donkey Kong and Starfox in exchange for the Engines, their codebases and original IP created by Rare because the moment THQ or Activision bought the shares. Nintendo could just sign a blockbuster deal that kept the E-Rated franchises on Nintendo and let the others on PS2/Xbox while holding a majority stake in the company so Acti or THQ would do their bidding (And Iwata was good friends with Danny Bilson and Bobby Kottick so they easily would have got on). They didn't expect MS to have such a strong bid at the last minute and Yamauchi to bail out on them and sell the rest.

>>386786493
Ghoulies was 90% done by the time of the buyout and in the final stages. Conker L&R got screwed over in some sort of spat between MS and WalMart over stocking the 360 and WalMart being offended by Conker so much they threatened to stop stocking MS products in general so MS had to ask Rare to tone it back more than the original game. The online was criminally underrated in that game though

Rare and Microsoft. Rare because BEFORE the buyout, Rare was having tons of internal problems. Lots of people were fired. Tons of games got delayed more then normal. An internal struggle as well between the stamper brothers and a group wanting more lax working hours. Tons of problems. So Nintendo simply saw them as a crashing company, and decided not to pay money to get nothing out of it. After they were bought by Microsoft, their internal structure was dismantled and rebuilt. People against this were fired or quit, only to be replaced with Microsoft employees. They went from being overworked in making games, to being overworked in going to progress meetings. They were having more meetings done then games.

Ultimately, Rare's death was going to happen either way.

>>386785676
How can anyone put so many buzzwords in one single post? Is this what they call lack of proper argument?

Them telling Nintendo to fuck off, only to get swallowed whole by the beast that is Microsoft.

>>386786607

>RPG elements

No that was Tanabe, who clearly stated he wanted to remove exp system. Miyamoto's only involvement in Paper Mario was asking to use the Mario World

>Removed Kremlings

That was never the case, Retro wanted to make new enemies to make them stand out reviving DK instead of relying on Rare's past

Where the Fuck are you getting these lies from anon?

>>386787517

>They didn't expect MS to have such a strong bid at the last minute and Yamauchi to bail out on them and sell the rest.

Microsoft ruins everything.

>>386780425
Themselves. Their return saw them make horrible choices.

>>386784647
But DKC plays quite differently from the 2D Mario games. Take your head out of your ass.

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>>386787151
>started off as remake
>OKAY BUT WHAT IF CARS
>YES LET'S MAKE IT MORE BANJO BY NOT MAKING IT BANJO
b-b-b-but microsoft did it!

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Microsoft easily
>Buys out Rare thinking they were gonna get DK
>Promised to let them have more freedom but then forces them to released an even more censored version of BFD and then never lets them make the sequel
>Kept rejecting their platformers from getting greenlit because their dipshit marketing research team says that they aren't popular
>Then forces them to shit out a stream of Kinect garbage
>Now the only freedom they have is making a boring multiplayer pirate game
Fuck Microsoft, I'm glad the Xbone is a fucking joke

>>386787921
>but then forces them to released an even more censored version of BFD
that literally wasn't even microsoft related
holy shit, you guys just can't accept rare's drop

>>386787151
They act like they're speaking from a script. It's almost as if Microsoft is saying "Act like it was your idea, but also try to act enthused about it". The only problem is they're acting is the equivalent of a kid who found out his birthday gifts early and is pretending to be surprised.

>>386785117
I've only played a demo of Viva Pinata on my 360 many years ago. Was it really that good? I vaguely remember the game being somewhat fun.

>>386787601

I would have been so happy if the teams behind Banjo and Donkey Kong stayed with Nintendo. Those honestly were the only good fits for the platform. The rest of Rare I don't really miss and Goldeneye's rise was the start of Rare's fall.

>>386787976
>They're acting
You believe that. Maybe your precious Gregg will be super based and release the epic Banjo Threeie next year.

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>>386787976
>They act like they're speaking from a script

>>386787921
>Buys out Rare thinking they were gonna get DK
Who the fuck keeps parroting this? That line in the Conker Commentary showed that ONE dude at MS (could have been an intern for all we know) thought they owned DK when seeing him on a poster with Rare's other games.

How the fuck do you think they finalized the deal without being 100% sure of what they were getting?

>>386780425
Personally, I didn't enjoy rare games past the SNES.

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>>386787921
The only thing you can actually blame Microsoft for is the focus on Kinect.

>>386785117
Because most of the team making YL weren't the original BK team, hell the level designer for BK is still at Rare
>>386787972
>that literally wasn't even microsoft related
Yes it was

>>386780425
Rare. they have never been good it was only under Nintendo's guidance they made anything of worth

>>386787921
>Kept rejecting their platformers from getting greenlit because their dipshit marketing research team says that they aren't popular
>Then forces them to shit out a stream of Kinect garbage

Yep. People either skip over this or don't realize it. Because Microsoft bought Rare 100% they have say in what gets made. There's at least 20+ games Rare pitched or worked on that never happened.

Fuck, there's so many cancelled Rare game's that previews for them are BONUS FEATURES on Rare Replay. Way to make your fans clinically depressed.

http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88273291&postcount=1

Rare was also at one point making Crackdown 2.

>>386780997
Yeah, they added starfox skins unto a shitty game.

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Rare would have been better off being acquired by Sony

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>>386787517
Grabbed by the Ghoulies could have been a really fun, open world game, if it had not been for the buyout.

>>386788376

or Activision, or THQ. The two other companies behind Microsoft bidding on the company.

>>386788128
>>386788057
Clearly you've never heard or seen anyone read from a script before. It's too obvious. You just don't know what you're looking for.

>>386788376
No, they'd still shit out mediocre games.

>>386788376

And eventually morph into another AAA blockbuster "PRESS X DO DO SOMETHING AWESOME" like they did with several of their other studio's? I rather them die.

>>386780425
Rare, they lost their vision after Diddy Kong Racing because 3D platformers were the cash cow of the time, then shit happened. It's a miracle that Perfect Dark and Jet Force Gemini were good.

I hope they make another Viva Pinata

>>386780830
>(You) are entitled to your incorrect opinion
>blames Nintendo for Rare shitting the bed and Microsoft cancelling projects

>>386788663
>Jet Force Gemini
just might be my favourite RARE game. I absolutely adore the game.

>>386788302
Explain that to the kids who had to endure years of suffering playing their NES games.

>>386787739
Ed Fries really wanted them and had very positive talks with The Stampers and staffers like Gregg Mayles regarding what they wanted to create and thought they would be perfect to fill a niche missing in Microsoft's portfolio. That's why he went in so strong at the last minute when it looked like Activision were going to win with a $100 million bid.

>>386788306
Rare never worked on CD2. They were creating a pitch and treatment for it when they heard MS wanted to do it but MS were too slow to sign Realtime Worlds again (Who did APB and killed the company). They made a treatment and pitch and MS turned them down because a splinter company from RTW was going to do it who already had Renderware proficiency (Compared to Rare who would have had to rebuild it in their own engine). Turned out shitty, especially because the Rare one could have been really interesting as Chris Seavor really wanted to direct it.

>>386788403
Supposedly Miyamoto wanted them to take it linear because he loved the combat so it was already on the way to becoming that game (And it was more metroidvania ish open world than a platformer). Miyamoto loves filthy humor and dad jokes so he jokingly sent back "Remove the crude humor" in every fax because he knew Rare would put in more.

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>>386788640
Because having them become a studio dedicated to Kinect garbage was so much fun right?
Sony gives their devs tons of freedom, they don't force shit on their devs and let them do what they want, some of them becoming trash is because they let in shit game designers onto their teams, not because of Sony

>>386788478
THQ didn't publish very many good games, and they don't even exist anymore. Why would it have been a good idea for them to buy out Rare?

Is it true that Microsoft only bought Rare because they thought they were getting the DK ip?

>>386789019
No, that was one employee thinking that aloud

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>>386788739
I hope they make another Perfect Dark

But never ever

>>386789005

They likely could have saved THQ.

>>386789019
see >>386788238

>MICROSOFT KILLED RARE BY FORCING THEM TO DO SHIT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO
>Ghoulies and Kameo were all Rare
lol

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>>386788994
>Sony gives their devs tons of freedom, they don't force shit on their devs and let them do what they want, some of them becoming trash is because they let in shit game designers onto their teams, not because of Sony

So that's why they shut Studio Liverpool and Evolution while keeping Sony Bend and Polyphony Digital open. Really activates the almonds.

>>386788978
It literally says that the games simpler design and concept was due to the buyout. And Mayles says himself that they basically had to gut the entire game and re-imagine it as an Xbox title.

>>386788376
If this were 15 years ago I'd agree. PS1/2-era was still the pinnacle of vidya-variety and experimentation in my eyes.

Sony today is the result of copying Microsoft's sinister success in vidya practices, purchasing marketing-rights instead of innovative developers, producing shitty films post-Raimi-Spiderman Fuck you, 3 was still great, and now chasing after the cinematic-success of Last of Us.

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>Neo-/v/ hates Banjo-Kazooie
What happened?

>>386789316
That would be implying that those games are bad.

>melodramatic faggot thinks people shitting on nu-Rare means everyone hates Banjo-Kazooie
what did he mean by this

>>386789317
Vs Microsoft shutting down Lionhead, and cancelling Scalebound right :^)

>>386789505
https://boards.fireden.net/_/search/filename/Why%20have%20you%20forsaken%20me.jpg/
Come on, dude.

>>386789316
>Ghoulies
see
>>386788403

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>>386784824
>Tooe is better than Kazooie in every way.
No, it really isn't.
As someone who recently beat Kazooie and jumped straight into Tooie, the difference in quality is staggering.
The meme of the levels being too big is honestly a very real, and very noticeable problem. It doesn't help that Tooie doesn't start getting good until WitchyWorld, because having the first two levels being the worst ones makes players burn out faster.
Things aren't as well placed as they were in Kazooie levels, and most of your time is spent traveling instead of collecting things. Kazooie's level design just feels much more tightly knit together, and the addition of even more minigames, as well as forcing the player to backtrack to previous levels in order to complete them 100% can get really tedious really fast.
It's definitely not a bad game by any means, but going from Kazooie to Tooie feels very awkward because of how different it feels. Even the camera isn't nearly as good, and it gets stuck on things way too often.

All of then were at fault. Nintendo didn't buy them, Rare allowed themselves to be bought and Microsoft raped them. The End.

I liked Nuts and Bolts

>>386788306
They pitched a Conker's bad furday sequel and were shot down

>>386790387
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOpRL5qanyg
inb4 THEY'RE ACTING

>>386789893
More like
>Rare had internal-organization issues and Stampers set their buyout price too high
>Nintendo refused to bother saving said firthy-gaijinnu despite having affordability to do both; Dino Planet probably causing relational troubles too
>Microsoft restructured everything by force and Rare were no longer themselves for the chances given; stuck into the Kinect-freezer until now

>>386789803
>too big is honestly a very real
It's not, its just that, a meme. The levels being big complemented the much faster movement and transformations that were actually fun to control.
>having the first two levels being the worst ones makes players burn out faster.
Except GGM is fantastic and MT fine, but just too small. The worst level is JRL, and even that level is still decent with faster swimming.
>Things aren't as well placed as they were in Kazooie levels
You mean where you're done with a level 10 minutes after entering it for the first time? Every new level in Tooie can be taste-tested before you undoubtedly find an entrance to an older level, by which point you'll have new moves to help you get previously unattainable Jiggies and areas. The level design is literally made to reward exploration, experimentation, and attentiveness. Kazooie is just course completion.
>and most of your time is spent traveling instead of collecting things.
Good thing the game is built around this and is a massive step up from Kazooie, where the Jiggies are just laying around on the ground waiting to be picked up. You have to actually exert some efforet to get Jiggies in Tooie.
> Kazooie's level design just feels much more tightly knit together
If by that, you mean cramped, yes.
>and the addition of even more minigames
Which shake up the gameplay and add more to the game than just platforming.
>as well as forcing the player to backtrack to previous levels in order to complete them 100%
Again, the game is built around this. Every world is connected to every other world, so jumping between them is easy and quick (thanks to warp pads).
>Even the camera isn't nearly as good, and it gets stuck on things way too often.
Okay, most of your points are subjective, but this is just objectively false. the camera in Tooie is a hundred times better than the camera in Kazooie.

How much did Microsoft purchase them for?
Think they've made their money back?
I wonder how much money has gone into Sea of Thieves.

>>386792729
>Think they've made their money back?
Honestly, none of their Xbox consoles have turned a profit so if buying them was a waste, then it was par for the course

>>386792729
They haven't even made a profit with the Xbox brand