How did you escape Skinner's box, /v/? What was it that

>>386498871

I've never found them in the least bit interesting or engaging.

Is there something fundamentally wrong with me?

>>386499034
>Is there something fundamentally wrong with me?
Nah, you were just never conditioned to push the button.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

>>386499234
It's a jrpg thread

>>386499234
Operant conditioning. The video games condition you with rewards in a way similar to a slot machine conditions the gambler, or a button that drops corn conditions a pidgeon

>>386499234
video games are Skinner boxes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

It's only gotten worse with shit like loot crates and microtransactions. I think vidya is too far gone to ever get better

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>>386499432
>>386499495
I know what operant conditioning is, I'm having trouble making heads or tails of OP's thread. What does it mean to "escape" this box in the context of video games? What is the significance of having escaped it, and what happens when you do? Is OP trying to say he's no longer playing video games? What does he consider to be the "reward" of playing video games outside of entertainment value?

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By burning my steamed hams.

>>386498871
>How did you escape Skinner's box, /v/?
Never did. Even when I realize what's happening I still play on because it feels good. Every once in awhile I still find myself playing internet idle games just because I like to make numbers go higher.

>>386500015
>What does he consider to be the "reward" of playing video games outside of entertainment value?
The entertainment value is the "reward". Skinner box shit is just a way to get you hooked so you keep playing and spending money usually long after you stop enjoying the game.

>>386500269
Not him but I'd say the otherwise depressing state of my life and need for escapism is why I keep playing even when its no longer fun

You can't escape the skinner box, it is everywhere. Whenever something that makes you feel good happen, your brain will learn that it feels good so it will try to replicate it.

>>386500015
The context is more about the modern game designs like microtransactions, loot crates, RNG item drops, etc. Think of a Fallout 1 vs Fallout 4, or an old puzzle game to Candy Crush

>>386500269
>>386500386
Oh, well I was never in that box because I'm not a faggot.

>>386498871
>How did you escape Skinner's box, /v/? What was it that made you realize what was happening?
My ex kinda pushed me out of it because she thought MMO's made me sexist or some shit. It was retarded but I'm still thankful. Fuck AQWorlds.

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>Playing WoW for months now
>Stabbing an ogre in the ass
>Been stabbing ogres in the ass for hours
>Suddenly a resounding question rings out in my mind
>"Why?"
>Just stop dead still while the ogre is beating me up because I'm thinking
>I can't find an answer
>Quit, uninstall, and never play again

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>>386498871
Mythic+ in Legion. Getting 1 more ilvl per wk wasn't worth racemixing with the tryhardNEET race.

>>386500373
>why I keep playing even when its no longer fun
Play a different game.

>>386500784
Literally me with every game now.

>>386498871
I got full Best in Slot in WOTLK and then a new tier of raid loot made all my shit worthless and the new raids were shittier. I said, 'fuck grinding all this out AGAIN' and quit.

To condition an animal you need s stimulant or whatever. If the player doesn't care about the reward then it isn't effective conditioning. It's like waving around a big black cock in front of a lesbian as a graduation present: she's not interested.

>>386498871
I noticed how similarly tedious grinding was to real life tasks, like driving down the same route every day to work. The more of those things I had to do in my life, the less I wanted to spend my free time playing skinner boxes.

For me the breaking point was playing Maplestory on Extalia, picked since it was the most tedious game I could think of. I got to level 120 or so grinding hours and hours of Monster Park for cubes, but that was the last time I played an MMO.

Its fun and a good waste of time but at the end of the day you have to come back to reality and it just doesn't work unfortunately. I couldn't healthily do both so i just stopped.

>>386501193
You have taken the first step, shitposter of this shitpost.

Now reply "I am a huge faggot" to this post. It will be over soon.

I played CS:GO.

>don't pay for crates or any of that shit
>don't pay for in-game cosmetics
>don't pay microtransations in general
You'd have to be either a kid or just kind of dim to get into the box in the first place.

What separates a skinner box game from a non-
skinner box game?

>>386501902
non skinner box: Skyrim, Minecraft, Roguelikes
skinner box: pretty much any MMO, Diablo, PoE

>>386501902
Nothing, they are all a waste of time. Even if you don't play games to gain easy satisfaction, you probably are doing it to escape reallity in some way or another.

>>386502294
>doesnt realize leveling up and experience is a skinner box

L O L

>>386502294
That doesn't answer my question in the slightest.

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>>386500784
Happens literally every single time I try to play an MMO.

I just stick to single player stuff now. Probably for the best.

>>386501902
loot crates

the moment a game stops letting you spend money for the actual reward you want and tells you to buy a pseudo-random number of crates instead, you tell that game to fuck off

Rocket League is starting to do this now, only putting new car skins inside of crates and not letting you buy them and I'm getting really tired of it

>>386502485
this

Far too many games are basically the same skill level throughout, with only the numbers getting bigger.

>>386502294
Skyrim is pretty Skinnerbox.

>>386501902
a game that's a skinnerbox is generally easier, simplified, and made in a way that you're always being given a shiny after every task. Often these games have microtransactions. A non-skinnerbox game would be more comlpex and lead the player to having to think, weigh options, or even multitask. For an in-series comparison, think of Fallout 4 vs Fallout 1

>>386501902
>>386502760
addendum: this isn't fully true as plenty of games have skinner box designs without monetizing that aspect (i.e. WoW or basically any MMO) but loot crates are the worst

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>>386498871
That I can't exactly get immersed into the game and ask myself "What is the end result to all of this after I played a lot?"

MOBAs, ARPGs, FPS games, whatever is popular.

>>386502437
>>386502760
>>386502841
>>386502890
Somehow I'm getting the impression that this term doesn't actually mean anything in the context of video games and you're all just making this shit up as you go along.

>>386502841
>>386502485
>Skyrim is pretty Skinnerbox.
Really depends how you play the game. I explore the world and do the guild quests.
>>386502603
Shut the fuck up retard

>>386503062
All of the things mentioned actually relate to Operant conditioning though. What's the video game equivalent of pushing a button, and receiving the corn?

>>386503062
>t. moron who doesn't even know what operant conditioning is

>>386503062
Here, have a definition that is less feature specific

>A reward system that slows down over time. The most common system is the level system, where it takes more and more experience points to get new levels. Zynga's Farmville has crops that take longer and longer to harvest.
>An end goal that is eventually replaced with another end goal, ad infinitum. The creation of new dungeons in World of Warcraft defines this trait.
>A reason to be addictive. I haven't seen an intentionally addictive game that wasn't made that way to make money. Monetization is the name of the game here.
>Repetitive gameplay to the point that it's not fun anymore. The companies are banking on the game being so addicting that you won't care.

>>386498871
>>386502993
This mentality is self defeating.
The only way to avoid it is to never play any game. Don't think yourself above anyone because you think your games don't deploy these designs. Name a game in the last 5 years that does not have a leveling system.

>>386503285
However, there is a big difference between a game that's addicting because it's fun to a game that's addictive. In the former case, you can't put the game down because it's fun. Once you beat the game, you can just go play the next game and all is well. In the latter case, you can't put the game down because you become reliant on it, like a drug. Like other forms of addiction, you can't put the game down even if you hate it!

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>>386498871

I always limit the amount of time I spend playing a single game in one session. It's usually for an hour or so, and then I either take a break or switch to a different game. The only exceptions are co-op games where I need to make a commitment to my team, but then I immediately stop playing that game once I'm done.

It's served me pretty well. I can play video games for as long as I want on any given day. The only restriction is how long I play a specific one in one sitting.

>>386503062
All videogames are Skinner boxes used to feel accomplishment.

But yes, some people use the term to describe games they don't think offer good enough rewards or gameplay to continue playing.

>>386501902
A Skinner box will reward the player randomly form performing a repeated action, no matter how well or how skilled you perform the reaction the reward is independently random. Think RNG based rolls for loot, or an MMO boss that have a 1% chance to have the item you want/need to progress. There is no skill involved in progression just random luck and repeated action. The skinner box rewards the pigeon with food randomly it could reward the pigeon with food on the next press or 482 presses from now there is no pattern to it. That's what makes it different.

A Non-Skinner box will reward the player predictable or steady ways Imagine an MMO where the boss has a 100% drop rate if you kill it in under a set time period, or a gatcha that allows you to pick which rewards you want out of the complete set rather than granting them to you randomly every time you roll.

I'm not really sure. For me I stay way from anything I cannot actually immerse myself in. I do the same with every medium.

Reading, drawing, watching movies. I have to feel immersed one way or another. Most games these days are designed purely with money in mind, leading to microtransactions, and shitty game design philosophy, which makes them impossible to be immersed in.

So I stick solely to non pleb tier single player stuff that doesn't suck your dick as soon as you press the shiny button.

>>386503165
>>386503243
>IN THE CONTEXT OF VIDEO GAMES
Learn to read, jackasses.

>>386503490
You missed a key point to a skinner box. It starts out guaranteed. You press the button, you get corn. You complete the quest, you get the item. Only after you're conditioned to expect corn do they start making it less and less frequent, so you constantly push that button desperately hoping corn drops

>>386503645
How about you learn what it actually means before you embarrass yourself.

>Playing Runescape
>Doing that island minigame where you get bonus experience items as rewards
>After a dozen hours or so I realize I'm bored out of my mind grinding just so I can play the game
>Realize that there's still dozens of skills, and I've barely broken 60 on what I am grinding
>Realize that I'm going to spend hundreds of hours not having fun...for what?
MMOs were never the same after that. Stupid loot treadmills and grinding for gear IS the game. At least RS had fun quests.
Monster Hunter is still cool though as it has fun gameplay. Going dump hundreds of hours in MHW when it releases on PC.

>>386503729
I know what operant conditioning is, you've merely failed to establish a consistent standard of how it applies to video games. If different people have a different view on what a skinner box game is and there's no consensus then your personal definition doesn't really mean jack shit does it?

>>386504078
But literally everything posted fits within the standards posted in >>386503285

>>386504168
And you'll notice that:
-the post you're referring to came after my post replying to four
-my post calling you a jackass did not link to that specific post because that person is clearly not a jackass.

>>386504361
Sweetie, You're talking to more than one person. You're also continuing to argue a point you already know has been made, and seemingly agree with.

>>386504078
Ok retard. Let's use Diablo 2 as an example.
>press button (kill enemies/bosses)
>get rewarded with exp and loot
>however, the best loot is dropped at a very infrequent rate (variable-ratio schedule)
>you continue playing to get the best loot due to the randomness of the loot

>>386504450
Thanks angel I do not know what I would do without you. All my love.

>>386504450
>Sweetie, You're talking to more than one person.
This was clearly a debate between me and two jackasses who don't know how to read so I'm not sure why you decided you needed to hop in, but your worthless input is appreciated "sweetie."

>>386498871
I don't escape them, I enjoy them, on the other hand I have far too much free time...
My counterargument for Diablo-like games, despite them being skinner boxes, is that they're pure gameplay almost 100% of game time (barring travelling empty spaces where you've already killed all the monsters), no cinematics, no long drawn out speeches, no shit involved. If you're good and know what to do, you'll spend less than 10-15 seconds looking at your inventory or determining what skill to use/upgrade.

>>386504476
Holy shit, learn to read a thread. Literally two posts above you and you'll realize this post was entirely pointless.

>>386504718
K, well I've already made my post about Diablo 2 so you can stop convenient ignoring it now. Or not, you can kill yourself for all I care.

>>386503362
It's more that you never really feel rewarded for playing those kinds of games. You would mostly play those for a free gacha box or loot crate or whatever rather than the actual games themselves. It's a rather sad flaw that was brought in as western devs took inspiration from Japanese phone games as they are making games more into services now.

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I willingly play skinner box games because even if I know its a skinner box, I still get the endorphines from the shiny colors and happy sounds. For this reason I enjoyed non-games like Cookie Clicker, AdVenture Capitalist, and recently I've been enjoying Slime Rancher. There is no escape when I put myself in this cage.

>>386504798
I'm ignoring it because the point was already made you unbearably stupid fucking twat.

>>386505042
lol u mad? it's ok to be mad, but you should probably learn what operant conditioning is, yeah? here, i'll spoonfeed you like the retarded inbred you are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

>>386505107
Ok now you're just fucking with me.

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>>386498871

If a game has no real end, the moment I solve the basic gameplay loop of a game, I just drop it. From this point it's only grinding and repeating of tasks.

>>386498871
Only fools think they've escaped the Skinner box of life.

>>386499432
Or how a job conditions you with money? Fucking idiot

>>386505806
life is a skinner box
I didn't want to say so cause it's depressing

>>386506024
Does that job eventually stop paying you every time? No? Then it's not a skinner box. Yes? Find a new job, because that's illegal.

>Finally get optimal team in dokkan battle
>new meta comes out
>pull new the new unit easily
>realize now banners can't give me anything that will make me stronger
>no idea what to do now
>already beat boss rush i have to wait until they make an event stronger than me

>>386506148
If you stop doing what they want you to they will

>>386506819
and in the case of the game you're doing exactly what they want, and they're holding off the reward knowing you'll do it more and more

>>386498871
I've never spent money on a game that wasn't buying the game or buying dlc that I would consider analogous to an old school expansion pack like The Old Hunters.

I will never understand why people pay to open loot crates and shit. But I'm not a gambling man.

>>386500269
If entertainment was the reward then things wouldn't be so bad, but there are games nowadays, especially MMOs, where people don't play for the entertainment but were effectively conditioned to keep playing.

>>386505004
You pitiful bastard.

This whole threads reminds me of hots, i kept playing because i thought the next match was going to be good.
On the other side i got all the cosmetic shit i wanted for free because the game gives you free loot crates by leveling heroes and doing the weekly brawl.

I don't make micro-transactions and usually don't play any sort of gacha.

I admit to enjoying DBZ Dokkan Battle, but I don't spend any money playing it.

>>386500784
>Play a game for days on end
>Get up one monring
>Start playing game
>"Why are you doing this, why aren't you exercising, why aren't you learning how to make a game, why aren't you learning your history or reading the news, why aren't you learning a new skill, why don't you get a job, why don't you get a degree, why don't you move out"
>Close game, delete it, cry
>Install a new game and repeat

>>386506884
He's talking about the job not the game

>>386507862
>or reading the news
You don't want to do that, believe me. No matter what side you stand on, reading the news will just make you angry at the world

>>386500269
If you don't pay money for the game, then what's the downside of playing the skinner box?

>>386508391
loss of time
up to you if that's a problem
it will be eventually

You can call anything a "skinners box" if you simplify it down to "get reward for doing action". Is my job a skinners box because I receive money for doing work? Is sex a skinners box because you're rewarded with pleasure and kids for finding a woman?

>>386498871

Any game I see with "positive reinforcement" I avoid now. Things like +xx XP for a kill or action is a good example.

I worry what effect being conditioned has on your none gaming normal life.

>>386508543
>Is my job a skinners box because I receive money for doing work?
no because the skinner box relies on using random (or at least pseudo-random) rewards
>sex
depends on your view of procreation and regularity of sex

>>386508543
>kids
>woman
normalfag spotted

If you actually buy into (((psychology))) then you're fucking retarded and brainwashed.
The only person who can hope to understand the human mind is the creator himself, anyone who pretends to is a fucking con artist. You're being scammed.

>>386508968
If you actually buy into ((meteorology)) then you're fucking retarded and brainwashed.
The only person who can hope to understand the weather is the creator himself, anyone who pretends to is a fucking con artist. You're being scammed.

>>386509121
You can see the weather.
You can't see the human mind. How can you measure something you can't see?
Fucking brainwashed libtard. Go suck your "girlfriend"'s dick

>>386508968
>creator
HAHAHAHAHHAAA

>>386509275
>edgelord atheist

>>386508968
Psychology and Psychiatry are valid fields of study but therapy is a fucking scam.

>>386500015
To escape it...

You realize the "game" is more psychology than gameplay and you no longer wish to be manipulated by it.

I consider it evil but devs dont know any better.

Allot of devs use it because it's a tried and true method but that doesn't make it right. It just means the dev don't know how to make a good game without it, Or are not allowed to by their superiors.

>>386509221
>how can you measure something you can't see?
Same way you measure your penis lol

>>386509368

>delusional child-minded fairy-tale believer

Path of exile is fun but I'm really feeling that skinner box in map progression

>>386509442
>>386509490
You'll be washed out when the day of the rope comes, mark my words.

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>>386498871
Simple, I just press that button so fucking hard that i burn off very quickly.
Well, now that i'm older i also consciously avoid games where you play to have fun instead of having fun by playing.

>>386498871


idk i kinda figured it out a while ago and decided i couldnt put up with it anymore around the gradivus dilemma in warframe

now any game that tries anything similar just bothre sme

>>386509221
>I can't see the Earth curving! FLAT!!!
>I dont see the germs! FAKE NEWS!

suicide pact anyone?

anyone?

suicide pact?

>>386507862

are you me?

and then instead of playing a game you just go on forums because it feels like less of a time commitment, because you have no time and should be doing toher things anyway, but ironically, if you just bugeted out 2 hours to play an 4 hours to do shit, youd be fine, instead you spend 13 hours on forums until5am and cal out of work?

>>386502724
This. Singleplayer games are designed to have an ending, and completing a game as much as it can be completed is rewarding. You can't get that with MMO's. You just keep going and going forever until you get burned out.

>>386509678

https://discord.gg/g38KsBW

pale #7487

>>386509678
Yeah, you first

>>386500385

That's something to transcend anon, The basic impulses. To choose to stop being a domino that exists only to react to other actions.

>>386509637
>He actually believes the earth is round
Fucking sheep
Educate yourself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMzlIuZ_Bss

>>386500863

I wonder if normies can understand this post?

>>386500784

Happened to me when playing ARPGs like Diablo 3 and Path of Exile. I used to love games like them but man, why should I bother anymore? What's the point?

>>386509637
>earth is round
Explain this then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TCpDkNgPn8

>>386510370
>have 467 hours in PoE
I fully admit it's a skinner box, I enjoy it because I enjoy optimizing systems, planning builds is half the fun
I get burned out and come back to it for a while with each expansion, the changes and new uniques give me new ideas to build around

>>386510302
wtf im a flat earther now

>>386500784
>>386510370
How dare you get off that number treadmill
return at once and buy more boxes goy

>>386500059
>burning your steamed hams
>not using your kitchen exclusively for viewing the northern lights

>>386504792
Quit being a cunt.

>>386505004
Have you considered doing DRUGS?

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>>386500059
>>386510742

>>386508543
Yes we can call anything a skinnerbox but let's instead use this knowledge to identify games that use skinnerbox mechanics and avoid them.

>>386503126
i think the level scaling in skyrim makes it pretty skiner-boxy. the game tell s you youve progressed, but it makes practically no difference

>>386499432
>>386499495
>video games
Watch the last three videos in this article if you __dare_:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/5a7b18b5-0ec3-3d3e-a307-54820a7c6a59

>>386512172
This is EVIL