Thank God for David Sirlin! >"Skeptics at these shows

I think wall 1 is CERTAIN special move motions. Hold down back- down forward-down back-up forward for a super is fucking godawful (Dee Jay, Guile in SF4). Guile's Super in SFV (hold back-forward-back-forward) is also incredibly annoying. I think that those are a little extreme, but necessary to make the moves at least a little bit technical. I'd also switch Wall 2 with the tactics, because fundamentals are incredibly important to any game

I'm not good at fighting games by any metric but I still enjoy them. I don't see why it's so hard for people to have fun.

>>386075568
Did you actually play the game on the demo weekend? I had fun with it

>>386075931
Charge moves in general are terrible since you never know when you're fully charged. The character should flash or something so you know you're good to go.

>>386075568
I get very frustrated in video games when I don't feel like I'm in direct control of my character so when I struggle to get out a certain move it really puts me off playing. I tried the whole fighting stick and everything but I still can't consistently get out a proper z motion.

>>386076957
count 1 mississippi in your head that's the amount of time it takes to charge it also counts during any animation, some games it might be two.

>>386077305
I agree with the sentiment but the z motion is really not that hard.

>>386077305
With stick shoryukens are really easy. Just press right, down, then slide it to the bottom right until you touch the gate.

>>386078016
>>386078174

I'm just particularly bad at fighting games. Instead of repeatedly failing against people online and maybe winning one round after a while I don't get the satisfaction that OP's picture is implying, Maybe I'm just impatient these days but I feel like I'm fighting with the game for the most part.

>>386078380
that's what fantasy strike is trying to fix, you missed the demo weekend

does chess 2 follow similar logic
is it "more honest" than chess 1

>>386078516
Fantasy Strike is shit though.

>>386078516
Neat, I'll have to keep an eye out. As lame as it sounds the most fun I had was with Killer Instinct for the xbone because it was pretty simplified.

>>386078694
don't worry, there'll be another demo weekend after the crowdfunding campaign fails

>>386078629
chess2 had a different idea. he wanted to add 'select your character' to chess.

>>386075568
Do people really not like special move motions? I mean ya sometimes they can get retarded with pentagrams and why not but they're there for a reason--to provide balance, diversify the cast, and help create unique identities for characters. The motions all reflect different archetypes of characters. It's why grapplers have 180s and circles, why shotos have basic motions, why som

>>386075568
>Practice for years and consider yourself a professional fighting game player
>Lose matches to a guy who had only played for a few hours

KEK.

>>386078872
not only special move motions, but shit like option selects, fadcs, charge partitioning etc etc. it's tough out there for a casual

>>386075568
>People who literally made the game beat people who have never touched it before

Wow amazing, clearly the game must be extremely deep. I just love how the "Skeptics" were suddenly so impressed, clearly this game must be wonderful.

>>386078826
>'select your character'
would this part at least have had some good bgm

>>386079206
never played it but i doubt it, he hired some cheap programmer and everyone says the online implementation sucks

>>386079039
Except that doesn't happen, experienced players run a train over newcomers even in games like Rising Thunder and Fantasy Strike. That's also why removing the execution barrier does nothing.

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Quarter circle forward and backwards
charge back and forward
DP motion forward and backwards
charge down and up
down down motion
double quarter circle forward and backwards for supers


These are the only inputs that are really necessary. The more unorthodox inputs should only ever be used if the character has exhausted all of the other basic motions. Ultimately stuff like half circles take no longer to do than a quarter circle and half the time the games are designed in such a way that you don't even have to do the complete motion because of input shortcuts, so I say just cut the middleman.

>>386075568
I don't care about what they say, but a fighting game that only has so few attacks is going to get boring super fast and can't be deep. It's just going to devolve into spacing with one button and match ups are going to be horrendously bad just because if someone's spacing move is better than yours, you lose. Balancing this game is basically going to be impossible and match ups are extremely likely to be one sided.

>>386079383
I agree, except SPD-type moves should still have a 360 or 632146 motion as a balance measure.

>>386075568
>tactics, decision making, and fun
It's much less fun if the game is just tactics and decision making with no actually interesting gameplay.
Like divekick, it's basically just a novelty.

>>386079640
>should still have a 360
what's funny is that i actually PREFER to do 360s to half circle motions
i accidentally jump more often with the latter than the former
maybe it's because i used to play zangief a lot in super turbo days but i ended up mastering the 360s

>>386078872
I mostly just hate charge moves. I'd rather do three pretzels than a charge.

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how it should really be

>>386079331
That happens in tons of games, people get cocky and get blown up by players who are really good at other fighting games. If the first guy was really a professional then you would be right.

>>386079836
you'd fucking love vatista
spoilered: charge-gore
2C > 5C > j.[B] > j.C > land > j.A > [8]2A > 2[C] > 2]B[ > 2A > 2B > 2]C[ > [6]4B > j.C > FF > [8]2C
>charging and releasing over 5 inputs in the middle of the combo and releasing them at precise times while holding 2 other buttons

>>386080003
This. People wouldn't complain about it being hard to get into if it was at least a fun journey, but it's not

Whats up with /v/ and his hated for figthing games?
I grew up playing metal slug and driving arcades, I avoided the fighting ones because I was bad, but I knew they were great games

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>>386075568
more accurate

>>386080325
It is though, it's just that because of the internet suddenly everyone can't have fun unless if they're super good at the game and beating up other people. Have you never mashed buttons like mad against friends before as a kid and had fun?

>>386079610
The biggest issue with this way of thinking is that they think everyone wants to play competitively but is being held back by the learning curve when in reality those that want to be competitive are the people that wouldn't get stopped by the learning curve in the first place (and actually enjoy the learning experience)
The result is that the game caters to an audience that won't stick to the game whatsoever
>>386079331
>That's also why removing the execution barrier does nothing.
The experienced player and the newcomer are definitely not on even grounds even if it's just the simplest game because the tactics and mindgames are something that the experienced player already knows while the other guy knows absolutely nothing or even how to properly use his simple moves to the fullest.
Another thing with these low execution based fighters is that they are very reliant on 50/50s, they become more luck based over just pure skill.

>>386080527
Yes but ONLY because that was what we were both doing.

Nobody in my friend group continued playing a game if one of us were uber competent and won 100% of the matches without even the possibility they'd lose.

>>386080527
Mashing buttons isn't learning the game. I mean memorizing frame data, hitboxes, etc is not fun for a newcomer. It's worse than homework.

>>386080252
More characters need forward charge moves.

>>386080670
But you don't NEED to do that, that's what I'm talking about, you can have fun without needing to do any sort of studying, In fact, unless if you are legitimately one of the best players in the world, there will always be some people who will kick the shit out of you anyways.

Also, memorizing frame data or hitboxes is a terrible way to learn fighting games. It's just some stupid misconception people get because it sounds complicated. Frame data and hitboxes aren't going to help you if you don't understand fundamentals and you'll figure out a lot of them just by playing anyways.

>>386080659
This is why you need to get fighting games no one has ever heard of and have mystery tournaments.

>>386080252
That shit is basically why I avoid charge characters. Fuck trying to do a charge during a combo. I have no idea how people play some of those characters in Arcana Heart with up charges.

>>386079383
I've grown accustomed to half-circle back-forward motions. I really like those, I dunno. Geese's pretzel motion is also really fucking cool to me for some reason.

>>386080670
>I mean memorizing frame data, hitboxes, etc is not fun for a newcomer. It's worse than homework.
It's not even that hard or time consuming. You hardly have to memorize hitboxes, you just learn your reach by playing and getting familiar with it. Frame data is typically only REALLY useful for select moves or strings, and typically only your own characters. Again, not even 100% needed when you're first trying to advance your level of play. It can be broken down in to simple "safe" or "not safe" by experience. The ONLY thing that takes actual practice in the form of "homework" is combo's, which can be simplified to an insanely easy degree while being effective still.
As you get better, your drive to improve more will go up. Once that happens, THEN you go in to advanced learning like detailed frame data, specific punishes, and bigger combos. The "wall" of FGs is a big myth. People say they'd play a FG if it was easier to play, but in reality they'd drop it anyways because there's no drive to improve in the first place. You're going to get your shit destroyed regardless of how "complex" it is, which is enough to make most people begging for easier inputs quit anyway.

>>386081189
yeah and i don't have to move right in super mario bros either but i'd be a dumbass if i didn't

>>386081280
You can buffer Saki's up charges while coming down from the air, or mid-combo string. I get what you mean though I can't wrap my head around actually making my fingers doing that and not fucking up constantly. I just played Wind Scharl because I'm shit and never took AH all that seriously.

>>386079823
>input combos are gameplay
i'm constantly amazed that people like you are real

>>386082040
>walking and jumping in mario is gameplay
>shooting in a fps is gameplay
>controlling units in an rts is gameplay
i'm constantly amazed that people like you are real

>>386081605
What a stupid comparison, first off a player vs player game and super mario bros aren't comparable, as unless if you have the mentality of a 4 year old you should still be able to enjoy yourself even if you're losing to another player who you're fighting against, where as a single player game is about overcoming a challenge. Secondly, having fun does not mean you are not trying to win, just because you are not looking up strategy guides on the internet does not mean you are not trying to win in your own way, whether it be a made up strategy you are coming up with yourself on the spot or by trying to do something stupid, you can have fun. Thirdly, having fun playing against friends in fighting games is about interacting with the players, shouting and getting hype with friends about what's happening in a fighter is great, yelling at your screen by yourself is not.

Basically, if you seriously believe you have to be tryharding to the point where you're looking up guides from other players to avoid losing since you can't take a loss, even with friends, you should stay away from any sort of competitive game at all.

>>386082040
I bet you enter CSGO threads and complain about recoil mechanics.

>>386082040
It is, isn't it?
Making combos is to a fighting games what aiming is for FPSs

If there's an upper mechanical limit where raw mechanical skill can be improved no further (when you can consistently execute every move in the game perfectly, for instance) AND all serious competition takes place beyond that specific skill barrier, it raises the question of why you'd have that barrier at all.

>>386081605
Let me guess, you didn't have any friends to play games with growing up.

>>386076957
that would make it possible for your opponent to tell, reducing your strategy. *but Chun-Li's charge moves work like this in MvC: Infinite
Just practice charge times in training

>>386082040
Inputs and mechanical difficulty have a point though. Guile can't walk forward and throw Sonic Booms all day (outside of bullshit AI Guile), consequently Sonic Booms can be much stronger because of that limitation. You can also read a charge character's neutral just by watching what they're doing. This is a weakness inherent to the character but it is balanced by them having stronger overall tools than characters with no input requirements.

A DP motion takes a bit of time to come out, you don't just have a reversal button. Sure you can get really good at the game and that time becomes damn near negligible, but it's still a greater than just your reaction time motion to throw out your reversal.

Now I'm going to make a completely asinine analogy for you to easily argue against. Taking out input complexity from fighting games would be like removing the need for QBs to actually throw passes in Football. The QB would just say 'I want that receiver' and the ball would appear in their hands. That way it's all about the tactics and strategy!

>>386080003
>>386080478
two kinds of people

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Prove me wrong

>>386082374
Because not everything needs to be instant gratification. It helps as a measure of improvement.
On top of that, using stuff like DP or QCF have gameplay ramifications too. If you mapped projectiles to a button rather than a motion, you'd shit like being able to instantly do an EX fireball out of block, since you wouldn't need the forward motion. The 3DS port of SF4 actually proves this insanely well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA9v5zE9kwY It's >Maximillian but the point is very apparent. It's a design that limits what characters are capable of. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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>>386075568
>Thank God for David Sirlin!

>>386075568
Why are reversals specifically pointed out? Wouldn't that just be special move motions? Beginners pick up which moves have invincibility very fast.

>>386079836
Yes. Except in very few cases, I don't see the point of charge moves (even though I've found myself enjoying several charge characters recently like Bison, Parasoul, Venom).
The idea that charge characters have "stronger" fireballs and anti-air held back by holding back is negated almost entirely in MODERN fighters. Not only are their fireballs or any charge special usually not stronger than anyone else's, but the charge is just buffered while the player is doing something else, like SFV Bison can dash up, hit you twice with any normals and combo into a knee press.

There are only a few charge moves that would make a good case for charging, like Guile's Flash Kick being fucking big and fucking dangerous (or that one girl from UNIEL). But again, nowadays there are all sorts of shit Guile can do to stay mobile or charge while doing other things and follow up with a Flash Kick anyway. He can always have it ready and the charge won't really limit him.
Back in SF2 before they adopted combos as an actual mechanic and not a bug, the "two seconds on the timer" charge actually reigned in Guile's power a bit. But now in SFV, a charge is 0.6 or so seconds for most charge moves. He can do virtually anything and still have a Flash Kick or Sonic Boom ready to go at any time.

At that point, you may as well make his moves a motion. Imagine if Flashkick were a 360 motion. It would be fitting.
On the topic of 360 motions, it was a pain to do a Gief360 back in SF2, especially doing it raw without jumping, but now that we have dashing and input shortcuts and whatever else, he can do the 360 during his dash or after a jab and it'll work. There's technically no longer a situational barrier to executing it.

Basically, I'm more of the mind that 360s and charge moves had a "reason" back then, limiting their ability to be used on a whim. But all of the "standard mechanics" added on to fighters since then have undone most of those reasons to have the more complex moves.

>>386083067
Does this have Smash controls with two B buttons?

>>386083046
Lmao I bought this game, even as a complete babby just pressing the insta buttons felt lame to me and I learnt how to do the real inputs.

>>386083067
BASED

>>386082942
I agree. Fuck combos.

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>>386075568
Who's hyped for Fantasy Strike!?

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>this thread

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>>386080478
>>386080003
>>386075568
the truth

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fixed it. fuck off casuals

>>386082535
But real sports are almost ALL mechanical ability, and that technical ability is both infinitely complex compared to game inputs and occurs on a spectrum. You can throw an awful, a pretty decent, a good, an amazing, a near perfect football etc. fighting game inputs are binary. Either you did it or you didn't. Eventually you reach a level, commonly the benchmark for "serious competitive play" where mechanical skill bottoms out and both players are capable of doing all of their inputs perfectly. There's a specific benchmark where mechanical skill is strictly a non-factor.

>>386083046
That's true, but several of these limitations could be achieved in other ways. There's no reason you couldn't limit the ability to chain together moves via an innate cooldown period for instance. Lots of inputs have also grown needlessly complex and don't facilitate limiting the character anymore, they are done purely for a mechanic barrier's own sake (the majority of specials are guilty of this).

>>386083498
looks a bit stiff still, when does it release?

>>386083067
>Our game is super complicated and deep even though we only have 5 attacks guys!

Unless if every character is the same, the game will be unbalanced shit.
>Regular fighter
>Opponent has long range pokes that beat out yours
>Switch to a more aggressive playstyle and use your short range attacks instead, or come from a better angle

>Fantasy strike
>Their long range poke beats out yours
>Can't do anything because you don't have another move
>Theoretically impossible to win if their anti air beats your jump in

Street Fighter 2 basically had this problem even with a much larger moveset. With such a tiny movepool you're basically guaranteed to get this problem if you have more than a handful of characters.

>>386083498
what an amateur looking mess. pass

>>386083218
Each character has Forward, Neutral and Back normal Attacks.
A few characters have specials modified by holding forward or back when pressing B or C.

>>386083218
Up and down both change what move you're using, though.

>>386083651
Mechanical skill plays into reflexes, anon. For executing combos, yeah there's a point you reach where you did the combo, mission accomplished, greater mechanical skill doesn't help. That point is not particularly hard to reach for any fighting game. But in neutral, your mechanical skill broadens your potential answers to various situations in conjunction with your reflexes.

A special might be a better option to anti-air, but if you can't input that special fast enough, you probably just want to fall back on a simple normal anti air, or just block. Specials can also be relevant answers to certain block strings, but you don't have the reflexes and mechanical skill to input that when you see the opening unless you are prepared and planning for that opening.

Also Football and real Football have a fuck ton of non-mechanical skill involved. You're never going to make a goal if you're not coordinated with your team and in the right position to do that sweet bicycle kick you practiced for years, because you're never going to get the cross or a defender's going to be inside your anus. This is why MLS is a fucking joke, they have no strategy/coordination, the players themselves aren't that bad on skill wise.

>>386083498
Needs to be faster

>>386079169
Those aren't specific motions but players using established mechanics in new ways that they discovered themselves. It's not something you can or ever should plan for to remove, because it's an organic process of discovery that is both enjoyable and constantly adds more to a game.

>>386082434
Great, so you did, no need to brag about it

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>Let's make games more casual

It should be crime to say shit like this nowadays

>>386083926
From what I saw of the prealpha the game is extremely matchup heavy.

I just hate links. why can't you just buffer everything? I ask this every time and the only answer is "harder = better" memes.

keep removing motions, mechanics, combos, and don't be surprised when the end product is basically just rock-paper-scissors. you'll be left with "tactics and decision making" like which of my three moves do i feel like throwing out now?

Go play fucking chess if only tactics and decisions matters

>>386085867
Chess doesn't have cute waifus

>>386085867
And remember what all the different pieces do? Sorry anon, I actually have a life, I don't have time for artificial difficulty.

I don't think special moves are really that hard a wall, nor reversals.

that said, 1-frame links are cancer and need to go, timing that is that fucking strict serves no real purpose aside from making the game harder to control.
'Plinking' should never have been a mechanic in SFIV because the controls should never have been designed in such a manner where you need to trick the game into recognizing your inputs.

wall 1 is knowing the mechanics
wall 2 is using mechanics correctly

>>386082374
Remember Rising Thunder? They removed that barrier and the people that complained about having to perform inputs just started complaining about tactics and decision making instead
I bet if you made a turn based fighting game with all combat driven by menus they would still complain about the system being why they lost

>>386083651
>Lots of inputs have also grown needlessly complex and don't facilitate limiting the character anymore
Name some. 720s are the only ones I'd say are needlessly complex. There's also the point that having them mapped so differently reduces the chance of getting a wrong move accidentally, or overlap with moves in general. Changing up the system and having to rework how people design characters/mechanics is too much for too little gain. You go through a ton of hoops and very experimental gameplay for what, a few thousand extra customers? If they want casuals they just include a story mode.

>>386087117
>I bet if you made a turn based fighting game with all combat driven by menus they would still complain about the system being why they lost
They already did - Yomi. In fact, the same guy behind Fantasy Strike did it.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/287960/Yomi/

>>386083506
Rude

>>386080252
>pick up ah3
>Oh this character looks pure and she kicks
>fucking reverse charge input

I don't get japs. Why? Do the make their games more execution heavy for the sake of?

>>386088248
Saki a best.

>>386088478
She and zenia are cool I wish I had the execution for arcana heart though the arcana system was fucking legit.

I don't believe the image it's more like
>now that you are knowledgeable and skilled at the game you can become frustrated at OP characters and bullshit attacks. The grass is never green.

>>386085804
>don't be surprised when the end product is basically just rock-paper-scissors
Fighting games already ARE Rock Paper Scissors.
The wakeup game is all about guessing what the other guy is going to do, and the options they have are usually only about three things.
Mixups, option selects, whatever terms each individual game has, every situation is a situation about guessing what to block/how to attack. You don't have the time to react to 90% of things given the speed of fighting games, it's predicting/guessing.

Even the neutral which was really the only place that had a fundamental strategy that wasn't guessing high/low/throw/whatever is starting to suffer because modern fighters make the neutral irrelevant. Walking speed is nerfed because dashing is now the norm, meaning the neutral space can be passed through and the opponents are now playing the guessing game of jab/throw. Punishing is a lot more difficult because everyone has super long blockstrings that bring in a great deal of uncertainty, shit like FADC makes punishable moves safe, and parrying being a universal function throws in a ton of uncertainty.

There's a lot more guessing now in everything. A lot more Rock Paper Scissors.

>>386087117
Rising Thunder fucked up because all they did was make Specials a single button press. Everything else was still exactly the same, so it became a game of ideal execution, one optimal combo that requires you to use Kinetic Advance to perform cancels. It was Street Fighter 4 3DS edition (the one with instant special buttons on the touch screen), on PC.
They didn't actually reduce the execution barrier that is very long combos you MUST perform for effective damage output. They only targeted a symptom of the thing causing the issue.

>>386083973
the webm that guy posted is over 6 months old

>>386084586
nah

>>386077305
Z motion is one of the most forgiving inputs. Just do a quarter cicle from up to down and then another from down to up, like a Hadouken. In my scrubiest days I used to do it accidentally all the time.

When you get that down the only difference from the perfect input is that thefirst up to down motion should be direct instead of a quarter circle.

>>386089142
>Everything else was still exactly the same
You mean the tactics and decision making and positioning mattering these people say that they want?

>>386088478
I'VE GOT THREE WORDS FOR YOU

KO
NO
HA

>>386089568
Yah. FADC isn't some esoteric specific ability, it's someone seeing that you can cancel an attack into a Focus Attack, then thinking "If I can do that, and I know Focus Attacks are cancellable by dashing, then maybe I can cancel a special into a dash and do even more with that.". This is one of the issues about people wanting tutorials that explain everything there is in a particular game, it's simply not possible because in most games such things come from people applying their own knowledge to new situations and coming up with new tricks, which is one of the most beautiful parts of fighting games. Just about every game out there already has a tutorial about the basic concepts that can start people off, and there's even more available online, but the most important part is how people approach the game themselves. Which isn't all that different to any other genre really.

I would literally enjoy fighting games less without special inputs, even if they made a good balance with another system. Does anyone else share this mindset?

Doing one feels great and pulling it off efficiently in a match is even better. I'm not particularly great but being able to do something that can't be done as soon as you jump is the best.

>>386080003
It's fun for me

If casual didn't mean lets make the game slower I may not be so upset about it.

>>386090923
Well besides removing depth from charge inputs, tking, and moves that require buffering it would also all but eliminate having different versions of specials. If you want a 1 button hadoken you're either going to need to cut the different versions or add half a dozen buttons to your stick for the other specials.

>>386079331
The guy in the OP literally said that happened. Learn to read.

Why does /v/ brag about being hardcore and says that casuals should fuck off, but as soon as FGs are on the tablet they do a 180? You're making me feel like I have an illness or something.

>>386090923
The consistency with which you can pull off simple fireball motions, DPs, and simple 2-hit normal into special combos and the like is a thoroughly underrated aspect of judging someones skill. Pulling it off every single time you try it for 10 matches straight is impressive in my eyes, especially in tournaments.

>>386091810
90% of /v/ is actually really bad at videogames, but don't want to let it show. Actually in recent times I'd say the number has gone up to at least 95%.

>>386091810
The answer is that /v/ is objectively shit at video games and anything beyond button mashing is too difficult

>>386077305
Tap forward, bring the stick back to center and quickly do a fireball motion. Alternately Press Down Right, Down, Downright. Even just double tapping down right brings it out pretty consistently.