Why did MMOs die universally? Why did they all stop being

Why do tens of thousands of people still play on legacy server MMOs then

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>>385417489
Basically

>be subculture
>pick up speed
>everyone wants a piece of the cake
>market is flooded with MMOs
>to keep your audience devs streamline their games
>essentially killing the soul of their MMO to keep revenue streams
>when the soul goes audience leaves

its essentially a catch 22 situation

Devs forgot what was actually so fun about these games, ie. exploring a game world that felt actually alive and the feeling of wonder and discovery that came from this, and focused on the gear treadmill.

The few games that don't have a gear treadmill are sandbox memes that bank entirely on the ~player-centered emergent gameplay~ shit, which just turns them into glorified PvP deathmatches. See: Eve Online.

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>give MMO players QoL
>turns out MMO players are all solo single alone playing autists who would go trough any hoops just to play alone
>cash out on this
hmmmmmmm

>>385417489
They pandered to normies. Normies ruin everything.

I wouldn't say they "died" necessarily, the problem is people are only interested in Themepark MMOs that have all the staples (i.e. Dungeons/Raids, PvP, quests, crafting, etc) and the MMO that does this the best is WoW. So every now and then a MMO that does a slightly different take on the formula will become popular, or has some sort of gimmick that WoW doesn't have to make it popular (like being playable on consoles) so those will get semi-popular but will eventually die out.

So basically MMOs are locked into this cycle where the only ones that are popular at a given time are WoW and 2 or 3 other ones that will fizzle out in a couple years.

So basically if you want to play MMOs but you don't like WoW, ESO or FF14 then you might as well find a new genre.

Internet developing and creating guides for everything contributed to killing the exploration aspect

>>385417489
They got replaced by mobage. Which is a cancer even worse than mmos.

>>385417489
Too jewish for casual players.
Not social enough.

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Blizzard ruined

>RTS
>MMORPG
>Card games
>ARPG
>FPS

>>385418693
>ruined

you mean popularized

you're just being a contrarian faggot who dislike anything mainstream

Man I keep writing a shit ton on the death of the MMO era but functionally all the early MMOs and especially World of Warcraft were successful because they were on the cusp of a new era of video gaming. People were just then discovering how powerful the internet was for gaming. It wasn't just new demographics, but old demographics suddenly grew tenfold. The death of Everquest and the subsequent interest from the success of games like Ultima Online were slowly revealing this new genre that could only exist with the internet. Celebrities were going on talkshows about how they had a secret WoW account. But that shine of the internet is gone now. The internet gaming playerbase is heavily diluted and broken apart. People looking for a team-based game are probably playing Overwatch. People looking for something competitive have DotA/LoL or CSGO. People looking for a game to just spend some time with friends have endless amounts of titles like PUBG. This is further complimented by widespread use of TS3 and Discord which serve as a connector between online friends, no longer requiring a need to log onto a game to talk to people.

MMOs served a very specific and interesting purpose at the start of that era. It was a way for people to just spend time in a world with other people but with some menial tasks to do in the mean time. I mean just look at vanilla WoW... what exactly is the gameplay up until end game raiding? It's super basic RPG stuff. It's not new, it's not interesting, it's barely interactive with other players or creatures. But it created a necessity to interact; who doesn't remember the members of their first guild?

People don't need that world anymore and spending hours away in that world isn't as enticing as it used to be. So the only MMOs that can thrive now are those that push story or the raiding aspect hard (FFXIV) or manage to have secured a niche with legitimately unique gameplay and world infrastructure (EVE)

Not sure what you mean?
Final Fantasy 14 is the first good MMO

too many companies tried easy cash grab with shitty games after seeing how well wow did. and then the market just got over saturated with very similar mediocre titles and people lost their interest in new mmos.

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>>385417489

datamining and wikis kinda killed the core theme of mmos, which was all about exploration and community cooperation.

also mmos are in a weird market niche, because the average person can only realistically dedicate themselves to one mmo at a time, so competition between mmos is a lot more fierce than other genres. because of this and how expensive they are to maintain, companies don't take risks and instead opt for safe options (copying wow) and so you end up with lots of soulless games that splinter the target audiences. and if mmo players are all split between a bunch of games instead of focusing in on one (like in the early days of eq/runescape/wow) then your mmo won't have enough people playing it. and if there's no community, there's no point in playing an mmo, unless you enjoy the single player aspect, in which case there's no point in it being an mmo in the first place.

mmos live and die by their community, and developers not understanding this is the main reason why they all suck now.

>>385418947
Nope. Ruined. They pick up a genre, casualize it to the point that there is no reason to play it and then all other devs do what blizzard does but worse.

That is why there are so many wow copies, Hearthstone copies, Diablo 3 copies and Overwatch copies.

>le same but with a tweest xD

>>385419083
>all the other devs do what blizzard does but worse
how the fuck is that blizzard's fault? isn't that all the other devs faults?

>>385419083
>ruined TCGs
mtg still exists and have begun going down the drain long before Hearthstone was a thing

>>385419185

Blizzard doesn't do a very good job in the first place. Inferior copies of an inferior original are bad.
Blizzard are showing developers it's ok to half ass it and that your MMO will make money no matter how shitty it is. That's not a good thing.

>>385419082
Pretty much. I think MMOs should get some ideas from Souls Games. If the user interfaces weren't as detailed, then the guides wouldn't be as immersion breaking.
Basically, WoW but without

>Addons
>World maps
>Minimaps
>Detailed quest tracking
>Boss fight information

Sure you need quest tracking because there are so many of them, but don't give them waypoints.

>>385419413
or you know, don't fill the game with rubbish garbage back and forth filler quests

>>385419185
you were right the first time, blizzard make shit popular but often introduce bullshit which in turn lowers people´s opinion on them
for instance in WOW you have the match making for all the dungeons and if not not mistaken some raids

oh yeah and the diablo auctionhouse which introduced real money as a part of the game

>>385419413
I agree with this. Even if there are websites to look stuff up on, I could still play it blind like I do with Dark Souls and have an actual game

>>385419376
>>385419508
that still doesn't describe how that is Blizzard's fault and not other developer's faults for copying a supposedly shitty game

>>385419413
Pantheon is exactly what you described

>>385418301

This is a major problem. The player base has come to expect MMO to mean themepark MMO (or sandbox MMO). They want MMOs to have various features that work in certain ways and actually get upset when a game doesn't follow this formula.
Developers are naturally catering their games to their largest player base. Just so happens this player base wants a pretty shitty experience.

There are obviously many other reasons for MMOs being shit, but simple fact of the matter is most MMO players want the next gen WoW clone so that's what developers are trying to give them.

>>385417489
devs blame the changing tides in vidya and the average player not having the attention span or the time to dedicate to a real mmo, but i don't believe it for a second.

>>385417679
this

>>385419564
because it got popular thats why
eat shit millions of flies cant be wrong, thats how it works

>>385417489
Intrrnet and guides removed all mystery and exploration from the worlds and turned everything into a giant to do list.

>>385419691
>make a shitty TV for whatever reason
>other people start copying my shitty TV design
>people buy those knock-off designs
how the fuck is that my fault, how about you just start blaming other developers for copying a bad design?

>>385419705
>thottbot wasn't popular during vanilla WoW
very few people give a shit about exploration and the lack of exploration certainly isn't what killed the mmo genre

>>385419790
i blame who started the trend and the shitters who follows them altogether
is that the answer you want?

>>385419790
I don't like to tell you this. But you are a fucking retard. And I am not going to waste my time trying to explain how marketing works.

Just know that you are stupid and an inferior human.

>>385419886
No, you're still being retarded. You can't ruin a genre by making bad shit.

I can't ruin rock by making shitty rock music. Do people still make good ice cream even though there are inevitably some people out there who make shitty ice cream? Are the people who make shitty ice cream RUINING the very concept of ice cream? No, that's fucking retarded.

are there any mmos that involve aim and dodging rather than just spamming a rotation? that's my biggest gripe with most of them, you don't even feel like youre playing really

Basically MMOs stopped playing like social, interactive games where you can find friends and form communities, to just single player grindfests.

Nobody wants to help anybody anymore. If you enter a raid without knowing EXACTLY what to do, you either get kicked, everyone else leaves, or you get berated endlessly. Which creates a toxic environment where new people don't want to play, and just makes the old people more bitter since nobody is playing their game anymore.

Also, devs relying too much on cash shops and pay to win models for most games these days.

>>385419705

This is partly the developers fault. Data mining can be prevented and there is certain stuff (a lot of stuff actually) that does not need to be included in the client. Developers include all this shit in the games client because it's easier to have the client handle it than the servers.

An example is Tree of Savior. Lots of stuff remained a complete mystery for over a year after release, despite it being easy to datamine the game. Until very recently when developers talked about it, people didn't even know how item drops worked (and we still do not have complete drop tables for every monster).
The client doesn't need this information since the server handles it, so it wasn't included in the client.
Likewise, the game has loads of quests, raids and other content players know very little about because you just cannot datamine something that's handled by the server.

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>>385419705
This, coupled with addons that basically play the game for you and the developers straying away from group content and more into singleplayer territory you end up losing what makes an MMO great in the first place - the community.

I'm just glad I got to experience the golden age when Anarchy Online, Guild Wars and vanilla WoW were at their peak.

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>>385417489
>Space Planet

>>385419958
>I don't have an argument so i'm not going to explain anything
wow I totally didn't expect that at all! and I really hope you don't reply to this either

>>385417489
apparently millions of people still enjoy hotbar based MMOs as shown by the hundreds of WoW private servers out there and how many people flocking to FFXIV as their subreddit keeps gaining users

>>385419587
>indie
>amateur
>unity
>kickstarter-like
I meant a proper game, anon

>>385420095
>the developers fault
Nobody could've predicted how big data mining would become.

>>385419867
Thottbot was pretty obscure during most of vanilla. Most people played like shit, didn't mixmax, and more importantly had fun.

I can't play Magic: the Gathering or Netrunner anymore, Blizzard ruined them for me by making Hearthstone

I played ffxi from ps2 launch until they started pandering to casuals. online guides were always a thing as far as i can remember. the main draw of the game for me was the community. leveling took so long it almost forced you to make friends. eventually it got to the point where i looked forward to exp grinding because it was mostly just bullshitting with people.

only things like mission fights and a few battlefield fights were instanced which helped a lot. there were also rarely ever any areas that got used once and never again. The whole game felt like a world rather than the trash nowadays where you stand in town waiting for X then you take a teleporter straight out there and then just warp back to town when you're done.

>>385419705
>>385420096

Yep. MMO's suddenly became a job, the community aspect crumbled. You no longer had to socialize to do anything because it was either piss easy to do alone, or you would just click a button, join some randoms, finish the crap, no one would talk, and they would all go their seperate ways to finish their to do list.

Sure info existed for vanilla wow, guild, dark age, and EQ. But it wasn't like what it is now. There was less hand holding in general so you WANTED to play, WANTED to succeed, and WANTED to meet new people. The players have changed as well. Today's "gamers" are not the same as yesterdays. Different audience. All of this combined was the doom of the glory days of MMO games.

>>385418228
This. MMO forums used to be full of "can you solo this game?" and "what is the best solo class?" threads. Devs saw a gold mine and decided to invest on it. Not only that, but the MMO audience changed a lot since the golden era of [your favorite MMO]. The internet as a whole changed a lot. Half of the old MMO's magic as the community, and that is something that will never come back.
Plus you have >>385417865. Korea flooded the market with their games, nowadays you pick a game based on the artstyle alone. Some games are designed to last a year or two at best (very similar to mobage games), then they will leave it on "life support" mode and work on the next cash cow.
It's not like they "died", but it is a completely different genre now.

>>385420058
not anyone from this convo but I think he just means that without blizzard making these games, the genres might still be doing what they were doing earlier.

It's not blizzard's "fault" but if they didnt make the games then the genres wouldn't be "ruined"

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Its just that the internet progressed
no need to interact and meet strangers ingame shit nigga you already have all those social media shit.
and there's no more sense of mystery and discovery because everyone just google whatever the fuck they need in those datamine sites
you could basically start out in the game as a noob but with the power of internet you could just solo the grind because you know everything. builds, loots, maps, quests.
whereas in the older days you start a character, you ask other players for tips, builds, directions and try to get friends and beg for money or gear. If you both didn't knew shit you would party up and try to explore it.
also no more haggling and scamming stuff because auction houses

I'm probably just a nostalgiafag tho

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>>385417489
http://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf

Here is a piece written by a professor on the subject.

>>385417679
A mixture of being dirt poor and nostalgia

There's a reason that most private servers are fooded with BRs and chinese.

>>385420734
>Auction houses kill game economies

LOL

>>385420058
okay so we are gong to do it this way, okay listen up you god damm shithead im going to break this down in a easy to digest fashion so even you cant miss the point

companyX makes a bad game called gameX with a huge marking and and development budget behind it
gameX becomes popular and is a financial success, it have millions of fans but they want more
companyY makes clone of gameX but calls it gameY, they also have success but to a lesser degree than companyX
companyZ makes gameZ which reminds of gameX and gameY mixed together but ultimately fail to become a success, game genre is considered dead by big companies and many years pass between new games of that genre

if you fail to understand the above then you should contact a brainshrink since you are obviously the most autistic fuck around here, get well soon
>>385420565
you got it somewhat right, they may not even have started it but they helped continue the downfall of RTS as we know them among other things
look i love the old blizzard but frankly speaking anything they have done after burning crusade have been shit, incidentally they have gotten more staff with unnatural colored hair and such
im not opening that can of worms but you get the idea

>>385417489
their appeal isnt there anymore.

all the new 12 year old kids that would normally start an mmo and spend years playing them arent picking them up when they could just play other games instead.

older players dont want to spend another 4-5 years in a new mmo either.

im not sure why but thats part of the reason.

They used to make games for players.
Now they make games for shareholders.

>>385420467
>There was less hand holding in general
hand holding increases accessibility in the short term, but undermines everything in the long term, because players don't feel responsible for their actions.

>>385420898
everything else was spot on though. not even sure how you have a proper MMO without a player driven economy. maybe he was arguing that anonymous auction houses kill it?

>>385419587
You disrespect Pantheon. Pantheon is based on real games that shit all over Soulstrash.

>>385417489
Money.

>>385420907
>older players dont want to spend another 4-5 years in a new mmo either
Why not? I'd love to find a game I feel like spending years on again.

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>>385418693
>RTS
ASSFAGGOTS community and devs running out of ideas did it, Blizzard was actually too slow to do anything (good or bad) about it.
>FPS
>Card games
Market was already flooded with these kind of games before Blizzard touched it.
>ARPG
Diablo 2 was the only game that had any impact in the genre as a whole, and it was very minor outside of the few Diablo clones out there. But Diablo helped Sonic Team to create my all-time favorite game, Phantasy Star Online.

Blizzard is a piece of shit, but they just deliver western/cartoony versions of other people's ideas (especially chinks). The only genre they actually had any impact was MMORPG.

>>385417489
>Blizzard falls ass backwards into a good MMO with a great community
>becomes so much of a monopoly that they are basically the entire MMO industry
>slowly destroy the game with incompetence and going full dreamworks by appealing to the lowest common denominator and trying to crank out expansions as fast as they can
>kill the industry
on the bright side xiv is nearing their popularity in NA and Europe, they are already halfway there

>>385420898

But it does. Look at games that didn't have them built in. The economy takes a fucking nose dive as soon as auction houses are implemented. Not just the economy but the game world suffers.
>Hey I have a quest taht needs a faggotroot, gotta go find one!
>Go to auction house, buy 1 of 37,000 faggotroots for sale
>finish quest only having to walk across the street from quest giver and back again
>Ahh the feeling of success! Job well done me!
Meanwhile out in the faggotforest I can't find a god damn root because farmers are completely wiping it out.

Vanilla wow was the ultimate sandbox, which was then ruined with attempts at making it linear.
Every other mmo has tried to copy post-vanilla wow.
For some reason mmos are still super popular. The premise is good, the execution is trash.

>>385421047
all mmos are basically the same shit, if you put a bunch of time in one you basically played them all so you see no reason to start a new mmo when you could just play the old one where you're super ahead already.

we should be seeing mmos that arent rpgs soon enough and they might succeed.

>>385421005
Entirely depends what he's talking about.

Automatic group finder that teleports you to a dungeon with 4 other random players then teleports you back? Thats cancer.

Group finder that requires you to list what you're running and have players apply and slowly form a group, then make your way there? Thats an convenience aka QoL feature that is actually good.

>>385421130
Yeah, nah.
EvE has an auction house - vibrant player driven economy. If you can buy quest items, thats its own individual problem. Just make them Soulbound. Wow. big issue.

>>385421010
Yeah great games like Vanguard, and Star Wars galaxies, and Jimmy Neutron. lmao

Before
>Online RPGs with immersive Fantasy words marketed to autists. Everything takes ages to do but it's ok because the point of the game is just doing shit inside the game world.
Now
>Single player pseudo-RPGs with optional co-op marketed to ADHD kiddies. Grinding is virtually non-existent but everything except end-game content is a chore to get through because it serves no purpose

>>385421209
>Vanilla wow was the ultimate sandbox
What

they were never good, people are just now realizing it

>>385420205
>indie
That's the only way to make anything but a WoW clone, faggot. Investors and publishers demand you go by the proven skinner box formula.
>amateur
What does this even mean here? This is a porno tag. If you mean the developers are amatuers you're wrong, they've got a lot of veteran staff from old MMOs and CRPGs.
>unity
Engine development costs a shitload of money they don't have.
>kickstarter-liked
Again, the money can't come from typical sources.
>I meant a proper game, anon
You are what killed MMOs. Your faggotry and sense of entitlement. Screaming "MOMMY I WANT IT" won't get a game made, you need to ante up.

>>385421209
>Vanilla wow was the ultimate sandbox

No.

>>385421120
isn't xiv just another wow clone though? when it comes down to it

>>385421391
hello blizzard shill

>>385417489
They died the moment web1.0 died. Normalfags ruined internet for all of us.

>>385421407
Its quite a bit worse.

>>385421291
>>385421391
vanilla was more sandboxy than current wow. Now it's all linear as shit. Just follow the quest marker and get your free legendary weapon

>>385421407
WoW clone that copied half of FFXI's models kek

>>385421234
>Just make them Soulbound. Wow. big issue.

You would think, but it isn't something that most games consider or implement. Just because EvE works doesn't mean that everything else is fine. There are exceptions of course, but on a whole auction houses have never been handled well when they are added into games and end up fucking thit up.

The problem is less casuals play MMO now. They were the ones that kept the game alive by being social and chatting. They quit because now they can get their social fix in other ways.

>>385421431
>shilling vanilla

Please, anon. Vanilla was shit. WotLK was where it's at.

>>385421407
opposite, WoW took the hero story from xiv, the artifact weapons, and even the squadrons and cracked it up to 11 and fucked themselves over in WoD and Legion

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>>385421236
>VG
>SWG
>not good
Oh, ok, you're just subhuman then.
>leaving out EQ because you know you'd get torn a new asshole over it
Soulsbabbies are a disgrace. Shouldn't you have asked reddit what the Dark Souls of internet communities is before you started posting, or is that what led you here?

>>385421484
>vanilla was more sandboxy than current wow
Yeah, perhaps slightly
>Vanilla wow was the ultimate sandbox
No, pretty god damn far from a sandbox

>>385421521
WoW had an auction house and its economy was fine.

Its absolutely fine as long as you aren't absolutely retarded with it.

>>385421387
Unity is a shit engine for online gaming. Of course that making MMOs is expensive, you're having thousands of players connected to the same server at the same time, that doesn't make using a subpar engine acceptable.

>>385417489
When the past 10 years have been people copying the WoW formula which is dying on its own, it's not surprising that it takes it clones down with it

>>385421130
this is why you need to have crafting be a worthwhile thing for both gear and consumables. which ties into many other things such as gear swapping during combat and vertical vs horizontal gear progression....

>>385421629
Lazy gamedevs don't know how to write code anymore. Just drag and drop some shit together in a GUI catered to students and other newbies, shove it as early access on Steam and ta-da, you got most of the new indie games that came out the past 5 years.

Degeneracy, all of them. Especially pubg

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>>385417489

Because WoW infected the mind of every player in its reach and those hordes of retards would ignore any other MMO if it wasn't like WoW, so companies got greedy started to copy WoW, following MMOs became more or less like WoW and died off with a few exceptions.

I fucking despise people with that "WoW mentality" who go into other games and run their mouths why X is not like WoW and bitch why a different game feels or plays differently from it. We will never get fresh and original MMOs again because it's a costly undertaking and the devs and suits in accounting want to make a profit not selflessly entertain players.

>>385421626
auction house ruined diablo 3. It made it too easy and quick to get the best gear for your level. Localized market vendors is the best way to do it (like eve/swg/shroud of the avatar).

There is nothing worth interacting in terms of people and/or community.

For example, FFXIV has one of the worse mmos communities I have ever ran into. They can't take advice, they think every critizism is an attack them, you question why when they're at a high level why they can't keep a basic rotation; aoe; or do foes and you get called toxic for calling out bad players. Me the bad guy who expects at least a decent person who knows how to do basic shit.

I mean, tonight I had over 5 fucking brds and not one of them did foes until either I called them out on it or they outright refuse to do it and worse of all they lie saying shit like they're new but they know how to do their sing rotation and do battle voice.

Fuck people and the mmo community.

>>385417679

They don't. You don't want this, trust me. You think you do but you don't.

>>385421584
Arx Fatalis MMO when?

>>385420107
It's clearly a generic mock up for a MMO concept.
The funny part is MMOs are universally so generic you have to look closely to even notice this.

>>385420125
>le no argument generic 4chan reply
>wow

No, he's right. You're a retard buddy

>>385421987
You don't seem very trustworthy Mr. Brack

>>385420565
>>385420903
>It's not blizzard's "fault"
>you got it somewaht right
ok that's all I needed

>>385421914
I made like $200 bucks on that shit

>>385421629
>that doesn't make using your only option acceptable.
I'd rather have a poorly optimized but existing game than these threads every day. Besides, the moment a concept other than "WoW clone" is proven we're free from this hell.

>>385421856
It's about time, not effort or ability. People need to get paid, people need to eat.

>>385422081
>no argument
please continue

>>385417489
Because MMOs are inherently shit by design.

If you make an MMO too casual it offers little depth and lets you just pick it up play it for a month and be done with it and people will cry its a shit game because it didn't hold their attention for a decade.

If an MMO is too hardcore the majority of people won't want to invest stupid amounts of time only a NEET or an aspie would, or anyone with no social life or family obligations whose daily life is work and MMO grinding.

MMOs are designed to make as much money as possible. If that means throwing in low effort quests that can be implemented very quickly by some pajeets working for dimes thats less money the publishers have to pay the devs. If its on a sub model the publisher will want the game to take forever to reach the "fun" parts and then to do the "fun" parts you have to grind endlessly for consumables or whatever bullshit.

>>385417489
>stopped being good
I guess you haven't played ESO: Morrowind yet

>>385421234
>EvE has an auction house
Way to miss the fucking point. Auction in eve is way, way, way more different that your run of the mill wow clone auction. It is decentralized, although there are few big trade hubs, there are no automated delivery system, so if you buy something in bumfuck nowhere you need to haul it yourself or pay actual players to do it, on top of it goods are actually fucking expendable in eve, your precious purple ship can be blown by other players for fun.

>>385422132
More than likely it's going to be an example of why wow clones don't work, thereby dooming the industry. Pantheon will fail and what will executives reply when they are pitched a novel MMO? That Pantheon proved that MMOs need to copy the WoW formula. Even though Pantheon will fail due to dev incompetence.

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>>385417489
Because every single new or upcoming MMO over-promises, and under-delivers.

>>385417489

I think the charm of these games early on was the multiplayer part of the experience. The games nailed online connectivity and interaction. As the tech got better more and more games connected players, along with the inclusion of RPG elements in most games, allowed players to scratch a similar itch with games with better actual gameplay.

>>385420898
>he hasn't experienced real bartering before

>>385421987
>You think you do but you don't
This is actually true and has been shown time after time. I don't know why people act like he was wrong.

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>>385422213
>I guess you haven't played this other shit mmo yet

>>385422263

It's like they all took a class with Peter Molyneux as a teacher

>>385422239
Yeah, nah, this isn't the first original idea to fail.
Not even trying to belittle you here, but how old are you? It seems like you have no idea what has happened in the industry beyond the past ~6 years.

>>385422340
Nost had over a million accounts when it was shut down. Not bad for an underground server with no marketing budget.

>>385422237
>, there are no automated delivery system, so if you buy something in bumfuck nowhere you need to haul it yourself or pay actual players to do it, on top of it goods are actually fucking expendable in eve, your precious purple ship can be blown by other players for fun.
this right here fampai

>>385421928
People used to be nice back then. If I saw someone grinding the same thing as you, instead of competing for EXP, I just talked to them so we would party up for bonus EXP and possibly grind stronger enemies. Nobody would say no to that, except turbo autists.
Now everyone is either a passive-aggressive cunt or too afraid of being banned for "hurt muh feeling" to even use the chat. MMOs are alive, it's the community that died.

The traditional concept of an MMO isnt compatible with the capabilities modern internet has given us.

Nostalgiafags love to talk about muh exploration not realizing that we live in a world where 1 billion people can talk to each other instantaneously. Theres nothing to explore. What one person knows everyone knows. Within a week of a games release there will be a hundred video guides and streams detailing the exact, data-mined most effecient way to make any build, get any item, solve every puzzle etc.

The future of MMOs are a mixture between Destiny and something like ARC, in which PvP with friends is the endgame and all of the single player is just a means to that end.

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>>385422381
I don't blame them honestly. In the world of kickstarter and early access, why wouldn't you over-promise?

If people are literally paying you upfront for an imagined product, that you are under little to no obligation to follow through on, why wouldn't you take advantage of that?

>>385422363
>quentin posting
kys

>>385419012
>>385420086
>>385420683
>>385421532
>>385422269
literally the only correct answers in this thread

>>385417489
They died when FFXI's lvl cap went up. This is why people are all moving to FFXI lv75cap private servers.

Any other MMOs were just shitty cash-grab WoW clones, which are aimed at casuals.

>>385422608
>kys
back2reddit

>>385422417
Nost was free to play and 100% not region locked unlike real WoW which is NOT free to play and is region locked across different countries.

>>385422132
>It's about time, not effort or ability. People need to get paid, people need to eat.
And guess what, I'm not gonna support early access shovelware if devs can't even manage their own time between paid work and investing in a new project

>>385422213
>Morrowind expansion
>Only adds a new class (which isn't even that good) and a PvE region
>40$
ya no thanks, I'll just stick to ESO Plus.

>>385422773
>saying back2reddit
wew lad, summer is in full effect, huh

>>385422862
>projecting
fuck off reddit retard

>>385422204
this is a shit argument. you don't have to be a NEET to enjoy a game that's a long grind as long as the game is fun. the only thing stopping you from enjoying the game is you for some inexplicable reason trying to compete with everyone. who the fuck cares if someone wants to play 15 hours a day to be the first one to do X? if you have fun doing what that guy did and it takes you 10x longer, why is the game shit?

if the game is fun, why should time it takes to do all the content be relevant at all?

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>>385420058
>can't ruin rock by making shitty rock music

Man do you know anything about music genres and how they died? Hell, even toy trends, movie genres etc.? Whenever something goes into limbo or death knell it's usually started by a catalytic release or a series of similar releases. These set the atmosphere and market, ruin the brand and eventually burn out the consumer.

The catalyst can be either a successful release that has critical flaws that reveal themselves as it is emulated or it can be a cataclysmic release that well, others fail to not copy. Like people said if the original source is high quality then the ones that come after have a better chance of being high quality to match its standard, the less chance of consumer burnout to happen. You have a higher burden on this if you are a market leader, human beings are memetic by nature and you as the market leader have to make sure you set a good example and do not damage the "brand" as any bad moves will have lasting damage for anyone down the line and you eventually as forces swing back around.

>>385417489
Because they get very boring after too long. It's just the same boring grind over and over.

>>385423013
>you don't have to be a NEET to enjoy a game that's a long grind as long as the game is fun.
99% of grinding isnt fun no matter how you sell it

feel free to find an example that is.

>>385417489
Appeal to a casual userbase. This created subpar content that alienated the hardcore users. And casual people can't justify subscription based games.

>>385422269

This is the absolute truth. No one here will aknowledge you because a) its too conclusive and kills the discussion ans b) its more funvto whine about "kids these days destroying the industry"

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>>385421130

>I SELL X
>how much for X?
>offer?

Fuck these cunts. People are always like this, they know god damn well the average price for the item they just bait you into going up. This is a waste of everyone's time and I'd rather buy it straight off the auction house than haggling with petty kikes over a 5% price difference for faggotroots, for common everyday shit it's cancer. For high-end shit like special armour/weapons or unique and rare items I totally agree, this where bartering makes some sense because the prices are way higher.

I get that conveniences and cutting corners aren't good for MMOs but there has to be a line somewhere. In the end I'm playing a fantasy online RPG where I'm supposed to be "the chosen one" not a peasant in a middle eastern bazaar haggling for camel-dicks and mushrooms.

>>385423142
it's as fun as you want to make it? i can't give anything other than anecdotal evidence...

i played ffxi for like 10 years. grinding for exp for a few hours at a time was fun because it was mostly me bullshitting with my guild and either meeting new people in the exp party or bullshitting with friends in the party.

maybe if i was socially awkward or autistic i wouldn't have had a good time, i can't answer that

>>385423013

If the gameplay was fun it wouldnt be called "a grind".

>>385423013
That doesn't work that way and you know it. Nobody wants to be some loser nobody on who neets will be styling with their high levels and epic gear.

>>385423370
>it's as fun as you want to make it? i can't give anything other than anecdotal evidence...
so not fun at all for 99% of players, neat.

>>385420058
yes you can

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>>385417489
something something Vindictus

>>385422237
>Auction in eve is way, way, way more different that your run of the mill wow clone auction.

Okay but we're talking about the concept of an auction house. Not "Wow's auction house implementation", dummy

trimming armor 5k only

>>385421928
>They can't take advice

Yeah because ALL other MMO communities you've participated in are rational, calm and thankful beings.

You just sound like a butthurt, delusional moron if you think you can change peoples ways by giving unsolicited advice, players suck and always will in all games. Go play Overwatch or any other "safe space" promoting games and rethink your opinion.

>>385423491
??? i honestly didn't care... it took me a like 2 years before i even did the endgame content in ffxi. all the NEETs had done it 10x before i even did it once. they had the best gear possible. it affected me in absolutely no way.

>>385423505
i guess? why are you playing a mmo if you're antisocial? i guess nowadays it doesnt matter, but it used to

>>385423609
something something not MMO
something something fun?
something something nexon

>>385423770
>why are you playing a mmo if you're antisocial?
Because people used to associate MMOs with antisocials, so actual antisocials decided to play them and spam "solo friendly?" on forums and shit.

>>385423609
>slow motion as your weapon hits the enemy
why the fuck do games do this. gives me a headache

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>>385423609
>posting old hurk videos
something something faggot

>>385424028

This is why I avoid Korean games like the plague.

>>385424010
it's a cheap and extremely lazy way to make weapons appear to have "weight".

>>385423740
You sound like a cuck that willing takes it up the ass so you can be the "mature" one.

These trash need to be called out on it and need to know it. Not keep our mouths shut about it because if you keep your mouth shut about it then you let evil fester and grow and that plague will spread to other people and then the devs have cater to those trash.

You know like what happened SWG and Archage.

>>385422457
The community went along with the changing of the culture. Back in XI I ran into a bunch of chilled people and interesting guildmates such as doctors and learned about the profession. Now mmos are infested with sjws, libcucks, self hating Whites, and disgusting non Whites.

>>385423770
Yeah because you were playing with old web1.0 community. If you play it now you will be kicked from any leveling party for not having sufficiently good gear, your guild will bleed players because people want to aim higher in the game when they get enough gear and some socials will be bored with killing rats when other kill dragons and have way more fun skills at their 99 level, leaving to some way less time demanding games in which you can fuck around with friends to same extent.

>>385424180
>sword is as big as my entire body
>my swings clip through the enemy's entire body/limb but somehow they don't get chopped off
>better add SOME kind of realism in
>let's add in weapon weight!

>>385423609
Vindictus is not an MMO, it's a multiplayer game with hubs, just like PoE

>>385424445

I always wanted a game with more realistic weapon mechanics.

What I loved about Age of Wushu was how obscure the shit was. Weird ass mechanics you've never seen before in an mmorpg coupled with a small playerbase in an extremely competetive environment where knowledge = power led to nothing but outdated or barebones information available on the web. The most information you got through the grapevine by talking to players ingame, it made the game feel genuinely fresh and exciting.

>>385424602

You think you do but you don't. Especially not in an MMO, singleplayer yes

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>>385424602
You are in luck anon, it exists.

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>get mmo itch
>all mmos are shitty cash grab wow clones
>no depth to anything, either follow what other people have already determined to be the best route or get kicked from every group
>no one wants to world build, instant teleporting to dungeons / locations killed any sense of scale
>community is shitty, either too big to know others on the server or too small to live

Fuck i miss MMOs 10 years ago

>>385424391
impossible to test this anymore. ffxi turned into a solo game. I joined a private server which is capped at content added before like 2007. since im playing solely with like minded individuals this situation doesn't happen there either.

the second half of your post though... a NEET will still spend the same amount of time killing rats as someone like I did. I guess i can't related to most people's gripes about old MMO grinds because i never made it a competition. I saw people killing cooler shit and it just gave me something to look forward to

>>385423770
>i guess? why are you playing a mmo if you're antisocial? i guess nowadays it doesnt matter, but it used to
you can be social and not have to grind in every single other game so why play grindy mmos?

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>>385424070
buy the 500 dollar gacha goyim

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>>385424858
>get mmo itch and watch to go back to TERA
>remember that UI

>>385425029
what an assinine and unnecessary resolution

at least the filesize is still acceptable

>>385420067
Some Korean MMOs like Vindictus does this but it's dead as fuck. It's a shame because the skill ceiling is so high you can solo most bosses in the game if you're good enough
https://youtu.be/nDNa2vje3Mg

>>385424858
>reinstalling wow this very moment because absolver releasing in august and i have zero will to play any single player games
MMOs are like crack, i can't force myself to play most of the singleplayer games and i don't even like to do all the group content in MMOs, but something about having other people running around, chatting and shit is very compelling.

>>385425017
because the grind helped build the server into an actual community... in MMOs today, do you know many people outside your own guild/friend list? when I was playing ffxi there were many people whom i was aware of that weren't on my friend list or in my guild.

>>385424858
>Texas
sup

>>385425403
I played quite a few mmorpgs that had communities just fine without grind

>>385425384
Honestly its not worth it. If you played it previously youll log in for an hour or two and roam around, see that your old guild is dead, then log out having wasted $15+ for the month

>>385425443
Going there in a week for ~10 days, Tyler area to visit some family. Anything I should check out while im there?

>>385417489

They were never good.

>>385425363
Skill ceiling is actually pretty average. If you compare it to how important actual gear is you will find that getting good is a meme and you should enhance your weapon instead.

Should I stop playing ESO and get into FF14 or should I just stick with ESO?

I don't dislike ESO but I've heard a lot of good stuff about FF14.

>>385425403
grind did help people get to know each other through repeated interactions but nowadays it doesnt really help at all since everyone has their vent/teamspeak/clan chat and just avoid everyone else entirely.

that being said, you can do all of that WITHOUT brain dead grind so there's no need to keep it now.

>>385417489
Streamlining games with party finders kinda ruins the concept of socializing with people to try to get raid groups together.

>>385425554
No that's the middle of nowhere, our governor is a retarded cripple just get out as soon as you can.

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>>385425179
i only do those resolutions when new stuff is out

>>385425554
I know, but fucking hell it beats staring at /v/ catalog and pressing F5 every few minutes to see threads to shitpost in. It also doesn't help that all the singleplayer shit i am looking forward to will be releasing in autumn at best and in 2018 at worst.

>>385425704

Free trial

Data Mining ruined MMOs
Fucking minmax faggots ruin everything

>>385424858
play everquest project 99

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>not paying 10 dollars monthly to play on a server that you could play for free on literally any region for free at better rates
step it up

>>385425783
then you lose out on the world building part of the game. not the same anon, but i also played ffxi in it's prime. a lot of the fun of exp grind parties was finding somewhere new to do it. what mmo today has a world where nearly every single zone sees use more than just once or twice? most of them you don't even have to walk through anymore because you just teleport to your destination from town. ffxi did this and the game is completely different and shit now

>>385426165
>then you lose out on the world building part of the game.
????

you dont need grind for that in the slightest.

>>385417489
A few reasons:
>Company failures from trying to hop on a trend but ultimately failing to capture the market
>emergence of an overbearing casual crowd that would ultimately move on to mobas
>the emergence of mobas
Most important thing to bote is that mmos are now a time investment for little community payoff. It doesnt take a genius to realize that mmos nowadays are more insular but also that they fundamentally lack the community building tools to keep people interested. Focusing on cashops is another example of this because youre essentially taking what could be an achievement for the player and reducing it to a real life cash number. The point of mmorpgs are to keep people invested in the long term but nowadays theres little reason to do so. By focusing on endgame more than the leveling process itself you now have people reaching their number a lot quicker and lacking any reason to stick around.

This also goes into the lack of zone replayability when leveling. Without any reason for players to go back to older zones they remain what they are, zones. Pit stops for minor progression that are ultimately useless and forgotten. Part of the investment is convincing players you are in a living world but most games dobt do this. Leveling is ultimately a sidestep to endgame.

>>385417489
More games to play. It really is that simple.

Dedicating yourself to playing the same repetetive grindy shit over and over again could work in an era when people just didn't have that many alternatives. These days if you want to keep playing a single game, dozens of PvP "competitive" games offer more variety, less busywork. Otherwise indieshit and discounted AAA easily accessible through Steam offer enough singleplayer content to keep you busy forever at a reasonable price.

MMO at their core are literal timewasting games, and there are just better options in that regard.

>>385424714

interesting.

Thank you, anon!

>>385426230
of course not but it helped. lets assume you start the game at max level instead. even if instantly teleporting to your destination is not a thing, you still see only a fraction of any of the zones that are in the game and it may as well just be a large hallway. you are running from town to exit on the shortest path possible to save time. random quest or mission sends you to some obscure point in the zone, but unless there are literally tens of thousands of quests, most zones are going to see no use, and the use it does see is limited to a fraction of what the devs even took the time to put in there

>>385424687

I said more realistic, not totally realistic,

Totally realistic combat would be kinda boring.

>>385426632
Not him, but I like how Guild Wars 2 did their exploration, putting points of interest and viewpoints throughout the map "forced" people to complete the map and granted experience

I've been playing eve pretty solidly since it went free to play last november. I've played it on and off in the past but ive gotten even more into it this time.

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Would a MMO with Dark Souls style mechanics even be fun? I kinda want to see that

>>385426632
you can have all of that without forcing players to kill 2 million cows.

>>385424650
Boy I can't believe someone else in here knows about that game. But yeah I think that Age of Wushu was the last MMO to give me that magic feeling. I liked their fighting game + rock/paper/scissors combat system which honestly felt way more dynamic than PvP combat in any other MMOs at the time. Plus what you said, the whole world still containing secrets and it was such a fucking thrill to get them Random Encounter quests that no one else have encountered or very few little people have received it.

But alas, the game also fell prey to the wrath of Asian Kikery. Frankly speaking I don't think I have ever seen this kind of jewing and whaling happening at the same time.

For those who are wondering how bad it was here's an example, the game at some point started selling a skill set that costed you $300. That's right, three hundred American bucks for one completely broken skill set. And there just happens to exists a guild that is also composed of members that have nothing but that said skill set. To simply put, everyone in that guild was running a $300 skill set each.

I think other anons have covered most of the major points of why MMOs failed but one point I will always maintain is that MMOs die because none of them are innnovatice to go past the point of being just another reskinned wow clone. But at the same time, god forbids there be a MMO with a unique idea or setting before the asians' kikery run it into the ground.

>>385427054
Wizardry Online did something like that. You can give it a try.
Or wait you can't because Sony killed it.

>>385417489
The mmo genre is one of the most popular, it has more players and makes more money than most others.

If you mean why aren't they constantly pumping out new titles, because the market is flooded and the people who play them get extremely mad if the companies shut them down.

>>385418228
Wow, what the fuck. Since when are solo players the target demographic for MMOs? Like, how is that even fun (sans maybe The Secret World, but they should've made that a single-player RPG with more polish).

>>385417865
This is how I feel pubg and survival multi-player games are going.

>>385427124
fine, what's your option for having players use zones more than once and more than just a fraction of the zone?

>>385427653
make them useful?

>>385422081
The >I don't have an argument so I'll complain about being called out for not having an argument, argument.

My main issue with every MMO is that everything is fucking automated these days. There's no reason to group up with anybody and create a Guild, to have somebody literally be an accountant for your group thanks to loot split systems, to have people renowned for their skill through name alone when the game plasters then with ranks and other shit.

>>385427746
yes, and how are you going to make them useful if you're not using them for a grind party?

>>385427557

Shit can't die off quickly enough.

>>385427861
by giving people reasons to use them?

I think a bad habit MMOs have is either focusing too much on the grind or focusing too much on the Endgame. You have to have a good balance of making the climb from level 1 to max level enjoyable and time consuming while also having fun and interesting Endgame content to keep players invested in getting to higher levels.

However, a lot of MMOs released recently have fallen into the pit of either:

A) making the leveling experience too short and putting too much emphasis on Endgame content which completely kills the longevity of the game and destines it to dying out, or

B) Having a reasonable grind but not having enough Endgame content to warrant it.

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>>385427841
>be an accountant
That doesn't sound very fun.

>>385428057
t. brainlet

>>385427990
grind parties did this, how is whatever you're trying to say going to be different? quests that use the less seen areas of zones?

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If you want to play a good MMO, try out the Ascension private WoW server Sargeras that just launched. FFA PvP, some items dropped on death, classless system with full customization of abilities and talents. It's the hardcore MMO experience that I've missed for a long time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m24ob0SyTu4
http://project-ascension.com/

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>>385427484
They pretty much did that with SWL. You barely run into players outside of Agartha.

>>385421914
> It made it too easy and quick to get the best gear for your level
Anyone who defends grind needs to be led behind the house and shot. grind is never good. grind is literally a measure to get people prone to addictions to run through your skinner box.
It's the opposite of gameplay.

>>385428116
>quests that use the less seen areas of zones?
sure.

there is more than 1 way to make an area useful, grinding shouldnt be one of them.

>>385428194
ok cool. so i do the quest then what? zone never gets used again

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>>385418301
ArcheAge was the perfect blend of Themepark and Sandbox, the Beta was so much fucking fun. Then they go and release the fucking cash shop from the Korean/Russian version and gimp everybody who doesn't use cash shop items.

I'm still fucking mad.

Real question is: how many of you would play (like, right now) a private server of Star Wars: Galaxies/Utlima Online/DAoC/etc.? Or are you here just to cum nostalgia over those games?

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>>385427172
I think that many koreans and chinese devs/publishers have this idea that MMOs should be disposable games. After the initial burst of cash and some months (rarely years) of decent income, they simply milk the cow as hard as possible before it dies instead of trying to take good care of said cow for many years. Maybe it's because how technology works, they want to release new games with more advanced shit on them, but most of the top grossing MMOs are old shit like Dungeon Fighter Online, Lineage and their mobile ports, and whatever "Fantasy Westward Journey Online" is.
Then again, DFO is a gambling machine disguised as a game, so I guess they are cheating the system.

>>385428256
more quests, pvp zone, pve zone.

>>385428137
They also somehow made combat way fucking worse, killed any deck building fun you could possibly have and introduced shittiest p2w mechanics straight from secret pw laboratories.

In short, if you hven't played the story of it, do it but stay the fuck away of it. SWL is way, way worse of an MMO than original TSW.

>>385428445
its hard enough to find a mmo with meaningful quests, do you really expect a game dev to make dozens of them per zone? more quests is just going to be fetch quests which most people won't even care to do.

not sure what you mean by pvp and pve zone. elaborate, or don't i dont care im heading to lunch shortly.

>>385428636
I played TSW quite a lot before, and I find that SWL is a major improvement to the combat, from a mechanical point of view.

It is woefully shallow, as you say, but the combat itself plays better than it does in TSW.

I got a questing for people who played mmos before wow:
What makes an mmo a wow clone according to you?
Is it the combat, questing system, instanced dungeons or some else?

>>385428769
it means you're a retard.

>>385429027
spamming your 'rotation' is what does it for me.

>>385429115
>anon gets triggerd by some autist defending grinding
top lel m8

>>385428837
No it doesn't. It really fucking doesn't. Weapon energy kills any fun that you could possibly have with the system as guted as it is, even 6 skills and 5 passives doesn't hurt as much as weapon energy. Weapon gimmicks are hardly fun too, most are even designed to be as antifun as possible, i am looking at you dual pistols roulette.

Stupid forced tps camera doesn't help either, it is really awkward and acts as sticky targeting anyway, tab target was way more natural to the game and it shows, especially in dungeons.

>>385417489
I'll give my 2cents right now

People grew up, I'm 21 and since my 16s the gaming magic kinda died
I also have no time to fucking play videogames let alone MMO's which are time consuming
other people feel the same or even if you got a group of friends everyones schedule is different so no time to group and play.

basically, unless you're a neet there's no point in MMO's if all you can is play 1hour or two per day at best because work, lifting, cooking, chores, etc.

>>385418228
What a faggot. FFXI was amazing because of how it forced you to work with others. The community was fantastic because of how rewarding it was to meet and work together with new people every day. If you were a piece of shit, everyone knew about it and no one would play with you. Plenty of great people I met were initially "antisocial," but guess what, if you wanted to get anywhere you had to put away your autism for a few hours and be part of a team.

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>>385417489
Played BDO for about 10 hours to see what the modern MMO looks like. Game is complete trash.

>classes/combat are all flashy but very basic
>game runs and looks like shit
>immediately tries to get you to spend money in the cash shop since there's no AoE loot and you need pets to loot your shit if you don't want to lose your mind
>a mess of MMO ideas like housing and professions all tossed together and poorly executed
>first game I've ever played that was designed around being AFK

>>385429438
>basically, unless you're a neet there's no point in MMO's if all you can is play 1hour or two per day at best because work, lifting, cooking, chores, etc.

There are no mmorpgs anymore that give people an advantage for playing too much, they reward people who play for a few minutes every day and those get ahead about as fast as people who nolife it. Im playing BDO right now and it's a competition of who can stay afk the longest and if you play the game you're punished.

>>385429381
>Dual pistols roulette

You can pretty much get any matching set you want at any time you want with the correct abilities and passives. "Stacking the odds" in your favor is actually the thematic focus of the weapon.

>>385429438
>hurr everyone grew old and are too busy flipping mcdonald burgers nowadays
are you serious
do you literally think nobody older than 16 or a neet played MMOs

>>385429779
I guess shit has changed a lot then
I remember playing a shit ton of "f2p" mmo's due to friends and unless you doshed out some cash or played a shit ton and farmed like a madman you'd be fucked

>>385419012
When I played vanilla as a stupid kid, I just focused more on exploring the world. Never got my rogue above level 20 and ended up in several places I had no right being in. I was the best damn mountain climber on the server, and I'm still proud of that.

>>385418947
Popularized is just a synonym for ruined

>>385429438
I get this argument but it's still a bad one. unless the game absolutely has no way you can progress on limited time i guess.

when you were 16 and lets assume you spent 5+ hours a day on a mmo, why would it be less fun only being able to spend half that time today? was the game itself not fun until you finally got to a certain point in the game? if that's true, the game itself was designed poorly.

most people who say this were treating it as a competition and were unhappy because people who are more of a NEET than they were, had more in game success.

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>>385417489
PC MMO:s thrived in an era (early 00s to 2012 or so) where almost all other genres on all platforms were experiencing their absolute worst times with everything being casualized garbage with no game series left intact and before crowdfunding and indie got big (i.e only games that greedy publishers would fund gets released = braindead games). There's also a generational and cultural shift away from the MMO kind of time-consuming experiences in favor of shorter higher intensity content like the 30-60min of dota/csgo/pubg that are all larger than they ever were before, or the billions of phone games (people born in the late 90s/early 00s and after are basically melded together with their smartphone).

>>385427172
>Boy I can't believe someone else in here knows about that game.
there was a /v/ guild and everything anon

>But alas, the game also fell prey to the wrath of Asian Kikery.
Yeah, this is what killed it hard, alongside with eternal catchup if you weren't playing from day1

>>385419705
well put into words senpai

>>385417489
>Why did they all stop being good at the same time?

they stopped being good long before you played the genre. Asheron's call, UO, Everquest were the real MMOs.

tabula rasa :<

>>385424010
muh impactful hits

>>385421629
>Unity is a shit engine for online gaming.

t. university of broscience

>>385430650
t. unity shill

>>385417489

After a few big spectacular failures and even more lackluster return on investments due to games that were supposed to make it big but just ended up doing "ok" publishers were less willing to fund MMO projects and even less willing to sink the required $100m into a massive game that was likely to just fall flat.

This of course applies mostly to the West, in the east they still crank out grindy p2w trash for addicts in PC-bangs to click away at.

I think that people really don't understand the MMO genre. It was a gaming population that was always kind of niche, people that want simple gameplay, lots of social tools and features, and a big expansive virtual world to wander around in. EQ / UO didn't make their marks by being gameplay focused high finesse games, they're places to explore and screw around with your friends while doing something mindless.

The MMO audience isn't big, but WoW made it look big. The trick is that in the Venn Diagram of "MMO Players" and "WoW Players" there isn't that much overlap. 90% of WoW players just play WoW or play other games, they don't play other MMOs. People making these WoW games underestimated that and figured that there was this audience of tens of millions of people that would dive right into a new similar game, but there isn't, and they didn't.

Remember how Wildstar billed itself as a return to form for people that loved the early days of WoW and no one showed up? It's because the idea that there are millions of people just waiting for the next MMO to return them to their nostalgic virtual fantasy world is another myth.

>>385430704
unity aint that bad, but it wont do everything for you either

>>385417489

It is really funny that Second Life of all things is still going strong, it has more monthly players than any MMO in the west with the exceptions of WoW and FFXIV.

I like sci-fi and most MMOs are generic Tolkien shit or Asian garbage. Already played the shit out of EVE.

What are some good non-generic MMOs? It doesn't even have to be sci-fi, just not fantasy garbage.

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>>385429997
>tfw i swimmed from menethil harbor to the mountains behind ironforge and dun morogh and eventually found a little house in literally nowhere at the base of the mountains facing the sea

Time...

>>385427054
>x with Dark Souls

kys

>>385430917

Wildstar, but it has a cartoony aesthetic that really puts some people off, but it's sci-fi with a great housing system.

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>>385417489
>Why did MMOs die
>Why did they all stop being good

Because every MMO became an analog of World of Warcraft. Even WoW became a parody of WoW. Also, grinding sucks, and devs are too ignorant and lazy to remember that games are supposed to be fun.

>>385421878

This is a really weird opinion to me. That people aren't allowed to compare and contrast a game with other games of the same genre.

>mabinogi is getting a mobile version
fug

>>385431041

You could argue that MMOs were never fun on a gameplay basis, they were always about other things.

is TESO fun? is the gold edition thing worth 30 bucks

>>385430787
Great post, have a sincere (you).

>>385431023
W* is more of a space fantasy than actual scifi though.

It's not affordable anymore, paying $15 a month on a video game just isn't in the green for many people now.

>>385431049

You really think WoW fags compare, contrast and "reflect"? I'm not saying you shouldn't compare the quality or anything but they have that mentality where if something is not like in WoW it's bad. They come in and say X is bullshit because its not like WoW. They've simply gotten so used to the WoW look, feel and everything around it they reject anything else and because they're the overwhelming majority other devs try to lure them away by making their own games more and more like WoW so that these mongoloids have an easy entry and feel right at home.

That's what I'm mad about.

>>385431626
what the fuck are you talking about retard? wow was more popular during the financial crisis of 2008 than it is now

>>385419082
You make a great point, i dont understand, some games like swtor, eso and guildwars and even wow could have been the best single player games of all times storywise, they could have been created such as the division or wildlands (i think ubisoft understood that a mmo concept is retarded in this day and age) and have yearly expansion packs but with solo content, imagine dragon age origins having yearly xpacs expanding the game and down the line adding co op and so on, instead we get half assed mmos that go f2p down the line and eventually die out.

FFXIV is great.

1. Vanilla WoW multiple filled hotbars, every skill being useful
2. Bosses aren't just WoW tank-and-spanks
3. Higher difficulties of existing content are actually entirely different challenges altogether
4. World bosses are fun to hunt down
5. Isn't afraid to throw a curveball in dungeons so players are forced to communicate
6. Don't need multiple characters on different servers in order to play as every class
7. Gathering skills aren't plagued by bots monopolizing valuable material nodes
8. GCD doesn't encourage mindless buttonmashing

>>385417489
because wow was shit and killed them all at once, so the only one left standing wasn't good. ergo they all stopped being good.

>>385431781
Yes and most of us were teenagers at the time so mommy and daddy paid it for us, now we're all big boys and don't make six figures.

>>385431556

It's a strange setting, there isn't magic, just ESP, the game has more of a western vibe, but it looks like a saturday morning cartoon.

It certainly isn't hard sci-fi

>>385431938
>Yes and most of us were teenagers at the time so mommy and daddy paid it for us
uhhh what?
>now we're all big boys and don't make six figures.
imagine not being able to afford $15 a month on something you enjoy lmao

of all the things to bitch about in MMOs the price to play isn't it you fucking underage

>>385431626

Due to inflation EQ's $15/month was like $20 a month. MMOs have gotten cheaper to play, but there is more competition for your dollar than ever before.

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>>385421987
>spend more money on legal fees than making a rebirth server
>"lol you don't want it, see? it shutdown"

>>385431926

It does well on those things, but the presence of invisible walls everywhere, the incessant instancing of zones where a simple city is 2-3 different instances, and the limitations imposed on the game by having to support consoles really makes for a rotten foundation to have fun in.

>>385431626
> just isn't in the green for many people now.

Second and third worlders shouldn't even be fucking playing MMOs in the first place, and if you have no money (unemployed) you shouldn't be playing MMOs as well.

You can't have it fucking all. Maybe stop smoking and drinking or quit wasting money on lottery tickets. Get your priorities straight and don't talk like people don't have 10 or 15 $/€/Pounds a month for a dumb videogame.

>>385432062
Not him, but I was in high school for WoW, and now I have a mortgage and bills.

I can afford $15 a month, but do I want to pay that for something that I don't have an eternity of free time to dump into it? Roughly 3 or 4 months of that can buy me a year of xbl or psn.

>>385432062
It adds up sperg, $180 a year on a single game is ridiculous. Most people here are college students with little income coming in, why do you think MOBAs are in their prime?

Free and fast entertainment as opposed to a time-sink with a monthly subscription.

>>385432381
>I can afford $15 a month, but do I want to pay that for something that I don't have an eternity of free time to dump into it? Roughly 3 or 4 months of that can buy me a year of xbl or psn.
That's a different issue than not being able to afford it.

>>385432449
>$180 a year on a single game is ridiculous

But 500 a year for shitty console triple A exclusives is not?

>>385432449
>Most people here are college students with little income coming in
Why are you just making things up lmao

>>385432449
you're looking at it wrong. 180 dollars for the amount of entertainment it offers is nothing. people willingly will spend 15 dollars to go see a 2hr movie

>>385432247
Excluding invisible walls, the PS3 is to blame for zone instancing. The PS4 should be able to handle a less instanced world.

>>385431186
This DESU, my only experience with WoW was a private server a year ago and it was just grinding to 60 for all the fun stuff like PVP and raids. The server wasn't populated enough for low level PVP or raids to really happen often, but it was fun when it did.

>>385432449
money isnt the problem you fucking retard

>>385432554
I mean if I had to guess your probably in your twenties right? Either you're a wage slave or in college.

>>385432731
I'm 31, why are you just pulling statistics out of your ass lmao

>>385432552
>>385432612
>>385432697
$180 a year plus the yearly $60 expansion isn't feasible for the majority of people unless you're a neet with mommy paying the fees for you.

MMOs died because people realized they not only will never end, but they start to realize they've been wasting thousands of hours and dollars on a game.

>>385432953
>$180 a year plus the yearly $60 expansion isn't feasible for the majority of people unless you're a neet with mommy paying the fees for you.
How fucking poor are you jesus christ lmao you can afford that working part time at mcdonalds

>>385432449
>Most people here are college students with little income coming in

Millennial minimum wage workers can afford:
Netflix
F2P currency such as Riot Points
$2000 gaming PCs with streaming equipment and a capable internet connection
Starbucks every single day
Social eating at the local artisan restaurant
Avocado toast for breakfast
Fraternity/sorority dues
Beer for said frat/sorority parties
iMacs and the latest iPhone

...But they can't afford an MMO monthly subscription fee.

>>385432953
$180 for a game you waste thousands of hours in isn't a bad bargain at all you fucking retard. The more you play it the more worth it the ticket price becomes.

>>385433008
It's not a matter of whether you can or not, it's a matter of whether it's worth it.

Why would I spend $15 a month on something when I could find another more popular game to play for free or for a one-time payment?

That's why MMOs died.

>>385432953
again... you're looking at it wrong.

are you getting entertainment out of the game still? does it offer more than a couple hours of entertainment per month? if the answer is yes, pay the fee and stop crying. if you cant afford this you can't afford to be playing other games, or using electricity in general tbqh

>>385432953
>$180 a year plus the yearly $60 expansion isn't feasible for the majority of people unless you're a neet with mommy paying the fees for you.
>source: my ass
you argue this yet you gladly spend 1 grand on cosmetics I bet.

>>385432953
> yearly $60 expansion

Just say if you're talking about WoW

Not every game is WoW dude. If you're a legacy FF14 player for instance you only pay 10 dollar a month and expansions are every 2 years

>>385433148
>It's not a matter of whether you can or not, it's a matter of whether it's worth it.

Now you're changing your argument. You literally started off with "it's not affordable anymore, paying $15 a month just isn't in the green for many people now".
>>385431626

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>>385417489
>Why did they all stop being good at the same time?
dont make me say it

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>>385417489
>Why did they all stop being good at the same time?
Because WoW casualized the genre around 2005. The only "good" ones were from before that era, but they slowly tapered off and died (like FFXI went from about 2002 to 2009, SWG got ruined, etc.)

When you invite soccer moms, children, and other assorted "low skill" gamers into the house, they won't leave. That's what you get for catering toward the lowest common denominator. Blame Blizzard. It's literally the gentrification of video games.

>>385424858
How in the fuck is Aion or Tera a Wow clone?

>>385421928
The XIV community was a lot better in ARR. I can't really speak for HW since I was gone for most of it, but almost every party was like an actual party. People were social, cracking jokes, and generally having a good time. Coming from that to SB, it's entirely different. You very rarely get those kinds of parties. It's usually just saying hi at the start of the dungeon, and then going as quickly as possible through it without any communication. It's more efficient I guess, but it lacks the soul that made ARR shine for me

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>>385433308

(you) cunt

>>385433008
>>385433093
>>385433108
>>385433191
>>385433210
>>385433250
MMOs were only worth it when we were teens and didn't worry about money. Your literally paying for a time sink that you'll eventually regret in a few years from now.

THE GAME WILL NEVER END, YOU CANT COMPLETE IT - THAT'S WHY IT DIED.

>>385433760
>MMOs were only worth it when we were teens and didn't worry about money.
i have more than enough money to pay for an mmo you fucking moron.

10 dollars a month is more than feasible for someone addicted to the damn game.

all im arguing is that ITS NOT A MONEY PROBLEM

>>385433760
You type like a nine year old.

>>385433760
but i don't want it to end...

>>385433842
If your telling me you don't regret the hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars you've spent on a single game that was designed to be a time sink along with designed to be addictive then I admire how fucking gullible you are.

>>385433586
i unironically thought the game was better before ARR... if they could have fixed the latency problems and never added the stupid fatigue system anyways

>>385417489
>Why did MMOs die universally? Why did they all stop being good at the same time?

Dumb fags will probably say WoW in some way doing it.

But fucking naw shit is really the fault of American connections speeds being on average kinda shit. So cause the connections are kind of shit game would have to be designed with that shit in mind. Meaning that there is only so much one can done with things that must rely on shit that can be made to run at like a 120ms lag.

So mmos "died" because of how samey they all felt given that they had to be designed around a very limiting connection speeds of the time. And they never really recovered from that.

>>385433918
Yeah because I can't understand how you guys are unironically defending a monthly subscription in [CURRENT YEAR].

>>385433994
i dont care about that, all im arguing is that THE PROBLEM IS NOT MONEY YOU STUPID NIGGER

>>385433994
>spending money on getting joy out of something is the dumbest thing you can do!

>>385423636
I'm pretty sure that everybody was talking about simple auction houses like what 95% of MMOs have these days. I mean if everything was good as EVE's we wouldn't even be having this topic in the first place.

>>385434027
Wakfu is turn-based and it used to be good as well. It can't be that.
Moreover, we've seen regional servers with good lag that still became cesspools.

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>>385433760
>YOU CANT COMPLETE IT - THAT'S WHY IT DIED.

And the dumbest post of the thread award goes to (you)

>>385423347
Any mmo that makes every single player character the chosen one will cripple the ability for players to feel important in an mmo world off the bat. Why try to gain influence and power in a game where everyone is a god of light, just like you? And auction houses do kill interaction, mind you.
Any base items is bought from NPC vendors, but anything specific should have to be traded for, it makes the world feel real. You have idiots like you stated above, scammers, and a myriad of people talking and trying to accomplish their goals by, you guessed it, interacting with other players. Thats what makes the world feel alive, like a real place. Would you rather just have people showing up in droves silently to a ye old teller booth that they buy and sell everything from?

>>385434179
dude nothing like spending my paycheck on a game designed to be addictive and made to insure you waste the most amount of time possible on it. LOL!!!!!!

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>>385417489

Simple

>MMOs were brand new and exciting
>massive multiplayer online means you will be able to play with people
>people get on it, have a blast making friends, selling shit and doing contents
>world of warcraft comes in, at first it was a pretty good mmorpg
>vanilla was the perfect balance of exploration, and making buddies. Back then people didn't use a mic and wrote to each others in-game. Everything was nice
>also features world wide quests like the opening of Ahn'Qiraj
>people start doing addons for the game, casuals, autists, lonerfags and cheaters start coming in and enjoying the game because they don't need to think anymore thanks to quest helpers addons
>burning crusade features flying, things are still alright but the casual scene start showing up and knocking up at Blizzard's door
>Wotlk comes, Blizzard gets sold to activision, the end of Wotlk features the worst thing to ever get featured in a mmorpg: Instant dungeons queues
>Cataclysm comes, casualize even more the game with a quest helper forced on everyone, almost every other mmorpg jumps on the feature that lets player fetch parties all over the world with just one click of a finger
>mmorpg are now single massive online role playing games
>core players leave because they didn't sign up for a casualized game, they signed up to meet new people, and explore new maps, and then ultimately do raids and other shit with other people
>autists and casual stays because they signed up for a solo game where everything is handed to them

>>385427893
Yes! Only genres from our childhood and young adulthood are good! Everything new sucks!

>>385434023
I never played 1.x, so I can't really say. I was a console shitter until 2015, so I played it on my PS3 and then PS4. Watching gameplay though, it seemed very large, but hollow. I do like the movement system though. Had some weight to it instead of floatiness

>>385434256
but you'll spend 12 dollars or whatever it costs for X tv streaming service, or 90 dollars for cable, or 15 dollars for one trip to the movie theater or etc etc...

MMOs were incredibly cheap for the amount of entertainment they offered. just because you can't wrap your head around someone still enjoying a game after 20 hours doesnt mean they're shit. you're part of the reason MMOs went to shit

>>385434256
>spending 10$ out of your 2000$ monthly paycheck is all of your paycheck
Are you like 14?

>>385434328

How big of a lobotomised dimwit do you have to be to make such a retarded implication?

>>385434447
yeah man, totally. A game isn't meant to live forever, it needs to end at some point.

MMOs had their fun, it's time for them and their outdated practices to die. Games nowadays don't force you to pay a subscription.

And just an FYI, I don't spend anything on "X tv streaming service, or 90 dollars for cable, or 15 dollars for one trip to the movie theater or etc etc..."

Why pay 15$ a month for one game when constant steam sales, humble bundles (let alone humble monthlies), and F2P games exist? 15$ could, at the right time, get me almost 20 damn games to play. They're probably going to be smaller, shorter games, older games at that, but that's the comparison point in pricing you really have to look at. For the people who are actually tight on cash, that's a great goddamn deal.

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>>385423609
>shilling a dead game
>shilling a game where progression is completely based on luck
>shilling a game where that little of playerbase that remained is just elitists and RPers
>"new" content is just rehashed old content

>>385434487
Why spend money on something you'll never fully own unless you keep feeding it money?

>>385434328
Generally speaking, yes. Kid vs seasoned adults

I prefer the grown everytime in every medium.

One of the biggest things for me is that MMO's took away the ability to be a dick and grief hardcore. I know you faggots will hate me, but you can't have a good time without bad times. You needed me.

>>385434618
>yeah man, totally. A game isn't meant to live forever, it needs to end at some point.
why?

>>385435086
because anon, nothing is good forever.

>>385435185
that's just like, your opinion, man

>>385427054
Just wait for MHW. You're never going to have a MMO Dark Souls.

>>385435281
if it was my opinion mmos wouldn't be dying, right?

>>385434932
>mpk used to be a thing in ffxi
>people would train aggro'ing high level mobs to the entrance of a zone
>people cried about it because they couldn't get by for the next 10 minutes
>i switch jobs to a high level one and clear it out for the shitters
>fantasize to myself about how much of a hero I was and how wet i was making the shitter women who were crying

yeah man those were great times

>>385431926
1. Most of those skills are either cooldown self-buffs or combo fodder to make your rotation seem more robust.
2. Bosses are really about the same as modern WoW's in terms of gimmicks to tank and spank ratio.
3. Can't argue with that.
4. Non-instanced content is pretty great in general.
5. Pre-levelcap boss gimmicks are still pretty braindead, at most one might require a brief explanation before the fight.
6. Good mainly because of how absurd the handholding is in XIV and how horrible it would be to have to make alts.
7. Instead you can just max out all the professions you need and fully circumvent any sort of player economy. You can't really win here.
8. lol

What MMO is worth playing for party content / raids? Is WoW really still the standard after 13 fucking years?

I know Wildstar tried to do the hardcore raiding and died, and FF XIV does okay but I haven't heard much on endgame. I've also tried PVP centered games like Aion and Black Desert Online but havent enjoyed those as much as PvE centered raids and dungeons.

>>385435562
none. go look into private servers of MMOs that used to be considered good

>>385435562
What about guild wars 2?

PvE is mostly solo world content working together with a zerg and theres WvWvW for zoned pvp

>>385417489

Why is this thread made every day now with the same responses every thread.

1. WoW set the standard when there was none and brainwashed the majority of the MMO playerbase
2. MMO players are now the most bottom tier gaming community
3. Devs don't want to make a hundred million dollar game on a guess, they want to at least attract some people looking for the next WoW even though those people are the type to hop ship if something's "not like WoW."
4. People keep treating MMOs like they're supposed to be ethereal second lives that they can drop into like some fantasy anime, it's as much a game as any other MP game just with a focus on different things. Don't want to say "lower all your expectations to the floor" but until Bill Gates starts funding the next great MMO, you won't see the MMO of your dreams. The MMO you played in childhood was heavily influenced by nostalgia and would probably make your adult self gag. As is evidenced by how many times people try vanilla servers or old MMO servers only to drop them.

>>385435909
>Why is this thread made every day now with the same responses every thread.
people like talking about nostalgia.
surely the 1 thread a day isn't causing too much problem? I mean I realize it's taking away one more e-celeb, or "what game is like X" thread, but its only 1...

>>385435909
People are secretly hoping that someone will prove them wrong and post the Y Online that they are looking for.

>>385435909
>The MMO you played in childhood was heavily influenced by nostalgia and would probably make your adult self gag
I can play Runescape just fine nowadays in the /v/ server.

>>385435909
>4..

Ragnarok is still as good as ever, you're dead wrong.

>>385427484
>Wow, what the fuck. Since when are solo players the target demographic for MMOs?
When Blizzard shit the bed and started catering for that solo-casual market. By its very nature, the number of people who are solo-casuals is much much larger than the number of people who are willing to cooperate with others to complete a task.

MMORPGs are now full of people who would be better off playing a solo-offline RPG.

>>385436335
the only reason why I don't play Ragnarok is that it's too old and I wouldn't fit in desu