Why is /v/ so adamant that video games can't be a good

>>385204083
Because it's full of Nintendo babbies who played Mario when they were little and never grew up.

>>385204083
/v/ is full of westacuck redditors who think that video games are only good for sci-fi quips and gay orc sex mods, and that """real""" stories for really """mature""" people are books for """adults""", like Great Gatsby or Niechz, which they read on the high school required reading lists.

>>385204083
It can be, but it's a waste if that's all there is to the game.

>>385204083
I like story

>>385204083
It can be. But those cinematic games aren't the right way to tell a story with a videogame.
They simply mimic hollywood's movies, put some button promps in it and call it a day.
Videogames can tell a story using all the things that make it different from movies, books and comics: the gameplay. But it takes much more commitment and devs are lazy fucks that want easy money.

Contrarian hipster douchebags and literal autists that can't empathize with thr characters.

Because it's hard to TELL a story in a medium where the protagonist doesn't have to abide, and why even bother. Videogames can have interesting setting, and interesting emergent storytelling, but book/film tier perfectly calibrated storytelling? Fuck no

Anyone who has played more than 3 games recognizes them as a valid storytelling medium.

The real problem is that gamers are illiterate as fuck and there's so few good writers in vidya. So it's slow to see them develop.

They can be, but you can't have a good videogame story if there isn't a game to play

File: 1473705795932.jpg (108KB, 986x553px) Image search: [Google]

108KB, 986x553px

>>385204526

>>385204083
I dunno but post more girls looking puzzled with question marks.

File: 1432269081745.png (75KB, 380x296px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 380x296px

>>385206309
I only have one picture, but I will contribute to your cause annon.

Because as you move storytelling as a focus you will limit interactivity and player agency, narrative and game play are at odds with each other.

>>385204083
I don't want it to, same with the "art" bullshit.

There are people that feel threatened when their pleb tastes get exposed so they retort with "muh gameplay" when story and gameplay can harmonize perfectly without problems if done well

>>385204083
They can be, but this is often used as an excuse to try to make storytelling without appealing gameplay.

File: Chun Li with Beard.jpg (65KB, 600x898px) Image search: [Google]

65KB, 600x898px

>>385204083
Well firstly they absolutley can be. The main point is that your Walking Gone Assassins Uncharted Elder Witcher Effect Of Us game has a shit story that takes up far too much of the playtime, and the games would be better served with much less of it.

It already is and has been for a while, which is fine. What's not fine is fucking storytellers, fuck those people. If I wanted a walking simulator broken up by cutscenes I'd just watch a fucking movie, but I don't because movies are fucking terrible and all the same shit.

File: 1491593174617.png (159KB, 492x588px) Image search: [Google]

159KB, 492x588px

>>385206309

same niggers that think MGR is better than mainline

>>385205457
>The real problem is that gamers are illiterate as fuck and there's so few good writers in vidya
except that's wrong
video games are just a horrible medium to try and be tradtional stories like a movie or a book
giving the player the freedom to do whatever they want kills your ability to craft a good narrative
it has nothing to do with the quality of the writers
video games can be great when they acknowledge they're video games, people who think they're great storytelling devices in the same way movies are are tasteless retards

>>385206708
>romanized interrogative punctuation
>Reddit-tier "just add bigger words to the meme in order to make it funnier"
Welp, looks like this meme is dead.

File: CIA q..png (525KB, 658x702px) Image search: [Google]

525KB, 658x702px

>>385204083
>>385206309
Why is /v/ so adamant that Baneposting can't be a good storytelling medium?

File: tohru go back to v.jpg (300KB, 1745x1080px) Image search: [Google]

300KB, 1745x1080px

>>385206708
I would tell you to go back to /v/ but, sigh.

>>385206708
holy shit what a fucking faggot

>>385206829
Tl;dr yes and no

1. A good writer will know vidyas strengths and weaknesses, and utilize them as they work with the designers
2. Good cinematic games do exist that dont sacrifice gameplay (MGS, Max Payne, Vagrant Story, etc)
3. Different genres have different needs

>>385205104
>and why even bother.
Because in a film you only get to look at a set for the duration of the scene.

>>385204528
>perfectly calibrated storytelling? Fuck no
Perfection doesn't exist, but besides that consider SACRIFICE by Shiny Entertainment. You might not like the story from a subjective point of view but you can't argue that it isn't well told from a technical perspective, while also succeeding as a video game.

>>385207127
MGS is purile trash. Max Payne is cheesy genre fiction. Haven't played Vagrant Story. Obviously good writing can help in a video game, but the idea that video games don't have good stories just because no good writer has attempted it is wrong. Writing has a much different role in games than linear media. The things that work for movies and film to create those emotions you feel when you experience art often don't mesh well with gameplay. Games aspiring to be cinematic is just a cancerous idea in general

>>385206829
>video games are just a horrible medium to try and be tradtional stories like a movie or a book
Yeah. Except, I don't know: Silent Hill 2, Homeworld, Vietcong, Cryostasis, Grim Fandango... all works based on very traditional narrative scheme, all actually better than most of it's genre bretheren. You are just completely full of shit.

>>385207514
Only game I've played on that list is Grim Fandango and all I can say is adventure games were barely even games, the gameplay part was horrible and they were essentially just interactive cartoons, which is why the genre died off. Adventure games may have had good narrative, but it comes at the expense of gameplay, which doesn't really make a good case for video games.

>>385207407
You misread my saying there arent many good writers in vidya as me saying there arent any.

A good example of how writing in vidya is Bloodbornes Old Hunters, its perfectly integrated with the style of the game and is incredibly cohesive. Imo its the best work FromSoft has ever done this gen

>>385207714
>Only game I've played on that list is Grim Fandango and all I can say is adventure games were barely even games,
Quick question:
Why the fuck would you even begin assuming that anything you say or opine about matters or is any way relevant? You are an idiot. Are you not actually aware of that?

>>385207893
I'm an idiot because I don't share your taste in video games? Good to know

>>385207893
He's a /lit/fag who forgot he has no power here.

Anyone who tries to use "genre fiction" in a demeaning way is a joke and a pseud.

>>385204083
Because story ruins gameplay every time. I want to play a video game and a cut scene every 10 minutes disrupts my gameplay. And unlike the manchildren known as journalists, I read books when I was to focus on story. Because I'm not illiterate.

>>385207960
>I'm an idiot because I don't share your taste in video games?
No, you are an idiot because you don't know anything about games, their history, can't even differenciate between highly subjective personal bias and a semi-reasonable judgement, haven't actually played or even heard about some of the most important tiles in history, yet feel completely entitled to go around spouting great judgements about how games can or can't work as a narrative medium.

Seriously: WHAT made you ever think that you actually are qualified to talk about this shit?

>>385208019
I can assure you this moron has never actually read a fucking book in his life.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /v/ is a single person boogeyman
Shit thread m8

File: hmm.jpg (737KB, 1080x1080px) Image search: [Google]

737KB, 1080x1080px

>>385206309

>>385208179
>I can assure you this moron has never actually read a fucking book in his life.
Nope. I just realized long ago that "genre fiction" has no real meaning beyond marketing. A good story is a good story.

Sheesh, all you McSmartypants should get this by now, nevermind all this ranting on the fine points of totally obvious bullshit for how stories are told in games.

>>385208179
I've played silent hill and homeworld, didn't like either of them enough to keep playing so can't make a reasonable judgement. I'm interested in what you think my subjective bias is here. Games can have a narrative, they can even have a good narrative. But will any of them pass the retarded 'citzen kane of video games' test that game critics keep throwing around? Will the stories of any of these games be enough to get people interested in them who weren't already invested in video games? I haven't seen many games that do that, and certainly not the ones that you mentioned. Games that are considered universally, culturally relevant are considered that way because of their gameplay. I've never seen a game with a story that could be considered great, and not just good.

>>385204083
some games tell a good story.

Some games shit the bed when trying to tell their story. Like MGS2

>>385208389
I'm not using genre fiction as some elitist term here, the max payne story is 100% cop noir movie, I've never been to /lit/

>>385208427
You can worry about cultural relevance a hundred years from now. Most masterpieces aren't even recognized until well after the author has died.

File: 7a0ac97e86a714ef48ae249398b59e5b1357512183_full.jpg (89KB, 640x387px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 640x387px

Do you feel like a hero yet?

>>385208583
>Most masterpieces aren't even recognized until well after the author has died
Some is not most. There already are culturally relevant video games. And they aren't relevant because of their story

File: 1456125074157.jpg (25KB, 247x284px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 247x284px

>>385204083
Why are you so fucking wrong about the /v/ hivemind's opinions?

It's because you wanted your thread to have replies.

>>385208427
>Games can have a narrative, they can even have a good narrative. But will any of them pass the retarded 'citzen kane of video games' test that game critics keep throwing around?
The absolutely retarded "Citizen Cane of..." which is pure memery aside: the answer is yes.

>Will the stories of any of these games be enough to get people interested in them who weren't already invested in video games?
And a huge yes to that as well.

>I haven't seen many games that do that, and certainly not the ones that you mentioned
First of all, that is your stupidity. You being an ignorant is not an argument in your points favor. Second of all, you can't even fucking appreciate like 70% of good games apparently, so again: THE FUCK gave you the impression that your opinion is relevant to anything?

>I've never seen a game with a story that could be considered great, and not just good.
You. Are. Ignorant of the fucking medium. That is all there fucking is to it.

>>385208704
Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Halo...

You can say those stories aren't good, but they have had an impact on mass culture and gotten people into games who otherwise wouldnt have heard of them.

File: disappoint dad.png (104KB, 318x308px) Image search: [Google]

104KB, 318x308px

>>385204083
Because Story>Gameplay pushers are 99% of the time tremendous hipster faggots who are willing to forego gameplay quality entirely to tell a story. If you just want a story that badly, if you're really fuckin jonesing that hard, read a fuckin book or watch a movie. Do not cross mediums.

>>385204083
It can, we're just generally flooded with shit attempts at it.

>>385208848
>my list of 5 games is 70% of good games
your tastes do not reflect the state of the rest of the world, you can't have an intelligent dicussion if you believe so
Please tell me what the Citizen Kane of video games is
Please tell me what the video game that will make critics of normal, linear narrative mediums sit up and say "wow, video games are now real art"
There isn't one

>>385209061
for starters what even makes something the "Citizen Kane of X", tell me, in your words, what it did for film

stop thinking it memes t b h

>>385208161
>I read books for entertainment/story
Well I've got some bad news for you, buddy. You may not be illiterate, but you sure as shit are pretentious. Books are for learning, not for enjoying stories as entertainment. It's 2017. Stop trying to act like a pompous pseudo-intellectual just because you're too much of a manchild to enjoy a good story-driven JRPG.

>>385209184
>Tips fedora

>>385208161
>>385209184
is this some triple-reverse beito or what

>>385209061
Pathologic, for starters.
The Void, Silent Hill 2, Cryostasis, Bastion... all also apply.

When it comes to genre fiction, Homeworld, Morrowind, most other SH games, Grim Fandango, The Longest Journey, plenty of others that I'm just too fucking lazy and hangover to think off.

And I'm looking forward how you are going to say "I either don't know these games, or am too stupid to play them properly or did not like them for whatever abitrary subjective reason so that totally makes you wrong, you retard.

>>385209153
I don't even know, I think it's a ridiculous meme aswell, the point is there are no games that stand alone as great narrative experiences in the same way that films or literature do. There's nothing that would have converted someone like Roger Ebert to video games.

>>385204083
because so many companies keep butchering gameplay to have 'a better story'
see TH4IF

Why does /v/ hate No Man's Sky? It has nothing but gameplay.

>>385209252
>Nor wanting story to interrupt your gameplay every 5 minutes
>Bait
This place has really gone to shit.

>>385205104
The fact the protagonist has the freedom to go where he wants when he wants should be what makes videogames unique as narrative form. The problem is, no one cares. The fans standards are too low and they are too divided in factions, the critics are a joke, and the industry is all too happy to keep things as they are.

File: 1499570059447.jpg (78KB, 480x602px) Image search: [Google]

78KB, 480x602px

>>385209292
>I don't even know, I think it's a ridiculous meme aswell,
Why use a metric you dont even know the basis of?

>>385209291
None of those games meet the requirements I outlined, and the fact that you think because I don't share the same taste in games as you I must be ignorant or stupid speaks great amounts about your own maturity and ability to look at things objectively

>>385209406
Because I personally don't believe in comparing games to normal storytelling mediums, I think it's a flawed outlook and the whole citizen kane meme is just an example of how stupid it is. Games should be video games instead of trying desperately to be accepted in the same category as movies.

>>385209438
Your requirements don't matter, because, as established earlier, you are a moron. Actually the games do meet the criteria you explicitly stated, but it's not like anyone expects any kind of consistency or honesty from you at this point.

>>385209568
you established I'm a moron because I don't like your favourite video games like a 12 year old. Show me one literary or film critic won over by a video game story

>>385209565
Your shits all mixed up.

Telling a story is telling a story, anything can do it anywhre from a game to a song, and how well you do it depends on A) you knowing how stories work and B) you knowing how your medium works

Different genres have diffrent demands, a game like Final Fantasy would need all the fancy cinematics to aid the grand adventure feel thats proper to the series. Games like Doom have little story beyond th basic premise since the focus is on the action itselfl. Meanwhile games like Dark Souls is somewhere in the middle.

There are very, very few games that are trying to strictly be Hollywood, and the most extreme cases of that are David Cages' shit and Kojima, and the latter has proven himself more than once that he can deliver on both mechanics and story. Compare that to someone like Yoko Taro who has gone on record saying he dosent give a fuck about gameplay.

File: 1476952519101.png (88KB, 400x770px) Image search: [Google]

88KB, 400x770px

>>385208962
>Do not cross mediums

Why not? I don't even like this cinematic bullshit but limiting the way games should be made is the fastest way towards creative stagnation. Being narrow-minded is what kills videogames, experimentation never will. I don't think videogames should try to be movies, but they can learn a lot from books or comics and even other mediums.

Making a game with little to no story and only gameplay is great, as long as the gameplay is good enough, just like it's great to also have a game with barely any gameplay and focused on story, as long as the story is good enough, which unfortunately it rarely happens, but that's not the fault of the medium, it's of the creators for being shitty writers. Someone wants to be an asshat and discuss semantics by saying they're not videogames? Fine, go ahead call it whatever you want. Won't stop me from enjoying them anyway.

>>385209882
making a good video game story is more about knowing how gameplay works than how stories work. Stories can work in video games, they just work much differently than other mediums which is why people trying to hold them to the same standards as film are being retarded

>>385210105
>>385208962
Gameplay and story shouldn't be two separated elements. It's like movies, you have the story (what you want to tell) and everything else (lighting, colours, lenses and so on) which is how you want to tell it.

In a videogame, you should use the gameplay to tell a story.

>>385209695
Actually, I established that you are a moron because you talk about shit you don't understand and can't differenciate arbitrary subjective bias from anything resembling a reason.

So far you have literally said "games can't have good storytelling". Then when given a list of games that prove you wrong went "I actually don't know those fucking games except for one, and I personally did not like it because I don't like an entire genre by default so that don't count" And then after asking for more examples, you literally went "Nope, those don't count" without even fucking attempting to explain why.

You are an idiot. Jesus Christ read what the fuck you posted so far. There is LITERALLY no argument, bunch of contradictions and some idiotic rantings about how everything has to directly conform to your shit taste or it does not count.

>Show me one literary or film critic won over by a video game story
This is like the fifth time you moved your goalposts you fucking retard. How many actual film and literature crititics do you know, even? I could list at least six or seven literature, art and philosophy professors from my country that I discussed this, including a 70 years old proffessor of aesthetics and the greatest expert on renessaince and baroque philosophy being highly impressed with the narrative of Bastion and Pathologic, but I don't assume those names would mean anything to you, nor do I particularly feel like desperately trying to chase you racing backwards with the goal post above your head you fucking mongoloid.

>>385210384
Nigger if you dont know how stories work you arent going to tell a good story, thats the ABCs.

Now if you want to tell good storis in games you need to learn, again, how stories work and also how that can be applied in videogames, especially if you want to go beyond basic cinematics.

>>385204083
/v/ isn't one person and most people here don't think that.

>>385210565
everyone with a brain knows how a story works, the challenge is doing it in the context of gameplay and creating something that doesn't suck

>>385211045
>everyone with a brain knows how a story works,
And thats what everyone thinks, even after their crying about their manuscripts getting rejected over and over.

>>385210448
my argument isn't that video games can't have good stories, just that they can't have good stories in the same way a film can. Good stories in video games exist in symbiosis with the gameplay. Many of the games you named would fit that bill, but the stories to those games dont't stand on their own and wouldn't win over any critics looking at it through the eyes of someone who only enjoys traditional narrative media. I say it because there's a whole movement of insecure gamers trying to get their 'medium' accepted as an artform alongside the greats, which it never will be, not in the same way, because it's not the same as anything that came before it

>>385211260
Your argument is wrong, plain and simple. And I don't give a fuck about your percieved conspiracy theories either. Games already provided great entirely linear classic stories, as well as fascinating entirely unique ones that could not be replicated in other media. That is a fact. Nothing else you say matters: I've already provided examples of this too. You sticking your head in the sand and screaming "NOPE, CAN'T HEAR YOU" because you are so damn insecure you have to make up entire category of people that you could feel superior too actually does not change anything.

My real question still stands: why the fuck do you actually even think your opinion this was ever worth sharing to begin with? You clearly don't know shit - haven't played many games, haven't talked this subject with people who have experience or authority on it, nothing. You have literally no fucking ground to stand. So why the fuck do act as if you did? What is wrong with you?

>>385211609
your 70 year old aesthetics professor doesn't know much about video games and you can't really call someone else insecure if you're still extremely butthurt I didn't enjoy your favourite game. If you want to say my argument is wrong you should provide evidence why. As I said before, show me a film or literature critic who has been won over by a game story. I've never seen one. If you want to see evidence of people in the game industry desperately wanting to be accepted like hollywood is, go watch an extra credits video

>>385211938
Judging from what you said so far he actually knows more than you do. Also, SIXTH time you moved your pathetic goalpost and went on "nope that does not count because I say so" routine.

>If you want to say my argument is wrong you should provide evidence why.
Already did you god damn retard. Listed like eight games?

>I've never seen one.
That is your problem! I just provided examples and you literally went "nope, don't count because I say so!" AGAIN you fucktard.

>If you want to see evidence of people in the game industry desperately wanting to be accepted like hollywood is, go watch an extra credits video
I don't give a fuck about your insecurities. Nobody fucking does. Fuck off and don't talks about shit you don't know anything about.

>>385212212
your professors are both anecedotal evidence and not critics. Listing games is not an argument. My goalposts have and always will be, games can have good stories, but not in the way that tradtional media can. Honestly, you could make some cases at some games having good standalone stories but most of your examples are horror games which is some of the most cliche-driven paint by numbers shit out there

>>385212454
>your professors are both anecedotal evidence and not critics.
First of all, you are asking for ancdotical evidence, you mongoloid. YOU asked me to name one person. Now you fucking say "hahaha, one person is anecdotical evidence". What the actual fuck is wrong with you?
Second of all, actually two of them are critics. One from the department of hispanic studies, a country-wide renown expert on south american magical realism, book critic and essayist. The other pretty much the same deal from department of anglistics. That is actually what most literature professors do: they teach and write critics and analysis.

>>385212454
You literally demanded to know games that tell great traditional stories, when provided you asked for critics that would acknowledge that, when provided that you literally complain that the evidence YOU demanded is not what would convince you.

>most of your examples are horror games which is some of the most cliche-driven paint by numbers shit out there
ONLY ONE of the examples I provided is a horror game, and it's a purely psychological horror about guilt you retard. And apparnetly you have declared that horror stories are all bad. Because Shining and Rosemary's Child and Pit and Pendulum and Scarlet Letter apparently are all crap too.
But great job spouting more completely uneducated bullshit about games you never fucking PLAYED IN THE FUCKING FIRST PLACE YOU RETARD.

Seriously: how the fuck do you even live with yourself?

>>385212986
>arguing with retards over basic shit

save yourself anon

>>385212986
I said most horror, not all horror. If you can site a source or a link it's no longer anecdotal evidence. I'd really like to see someone with qualifications say that a video game has a great story, because I've never seen it happen

I think it just becomes a problem when the focus of the game becomes the story and the game play is an after thought
I enjoy stories mostly through games over books or movies, but 99% of the time I would rather just experience something through "show dont tell"
I think video games are a great tool to tell stories but devs just throw exposition at us like its a book
I think of visual novels as not really passing as video games. I might as well sit in a movie theater pressing a button somtimes.
I honestly dont understand why the mods push VN's as vidya and encourage Vn threads on /v/

It can be, just not in the same way film is. The problem is, that's how the likes of Cage and Druckmann keep insisting is the way to do it.

>>385213695
>I said most horror, not all horror.
Apparently math is not your strong skill if you consider ONE game out of six or seven to be "Most". At absolutely most generous, you could claim two, as Cryostasis is about as much of a horror game as Bioshock is. That is, not really.

>If you can site a source or a link it's no longer anecdotal evidence.
You... you don't even fucking know what the word anecdotical evidence means? WHAT THE FUCK?!
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. Is there a bottom of this well of fucking stupidity?
Also, I'm not fucking putting up anything that can lead people to where I live and who I work with, you moron.

>>385214006
saying "my professor said this and that" doesn't mean shit, its anecdotal evidence. Obviously I'm not asking you to reveal your personal details but if it's just some guy you know and not something you can link online it's difficult to have a meaningful discussion about it.
When I said "most horror is shit" I meant most horror movies, and games, not the ones you specifically listed. Silent Hill could be considered to have a good game story but I don't think you can really claim it's on the same level as book or film. I've worked in the game industry for 15 years and not once have I seen any video game be critically acclaimed for its story by anyone outside the medium

File: 1494100565259.jpg (403KB, 2048x1152px) Image search: [Google]

403KB, 2048x1152px

>>385206983
But it is.

>>385214454
>saying "my professor said this and that" doesn't mean shit, its anecdotal evidence.
That is literally not what anecdotical evidence means, actually.
>When I said "most horror is shit" I meant most horror movies, and games, not the ones you specifically listed.
When you said that, you actually meant "I have absolutely zero arguments but GOD KNOWS I'M NOT GOING TO EVER QUESTION VALIDITY OF MY OWN CLAIMS, SO I BETTER THROW A DESPERATION CLAIM".

>Silent Hill could be considered to have a good game story but I don't think you can really claim it's on the same level as book or film.
It can. It is, in fact. It's actually better than vast majority of movies and books in the genre.

>I've worked in the game industry for 15 years and not once have I seen any video game be critically acclaimed for its story by anyone outside the medium
You must be pretty damn fucking retarded then... Ten second random search:
http://www.thecine-files.com/new-screen-order/#_edn12
While it mostly focuses on formal aspects, there are multiple mentions of how videogame storytelling is actually hugely influential to modern cinema on all levels. This shit is all over the internet too.

>>385215050
that's an article on how video games are influencing cinematography, not on video game stories or the quality of a video game story. You could certainly say video games have had an effect on the shit that comes out of hollywood these days, but I certainly wouldn't call it a good thing or any indicator of the quality of a game story. Don't google random irrelevant shit just to try and prove a point.

>>385215528
You are really beyond any fucking help. It's sad. The fucking article is just one of many good illustrations of how seriously are games taken as a fucking storytelling medium in other fucking departments. It's a proof that either you are lying about working in gaming industry yet never encountering anything like this, or you are fucking retarded if you aren't aware of how big this is.

I'm done. YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD BEYOND ANY FUCKING HELP.

>>385215753
video games influencing cinema via cultural osmosis is not any indicator of the quality of video game stories, just the fact that they're popular. Learn to logically reason if you want to debate a point. Show me an influetual writer talking about video games, not someone saying pearl harbor is like a video game cause the fight sequences are like boss battles

>>385214747
hes a big bear

>>385209328
Nothing but shitty gameplay.

>>385216179
Alex Garland, look him up you insane, deluded retard. I'm looking forward you making up more excuses how he does not count despite being award winning screenwriter and essayist because you very specifically demand critic, not an author. Or something like that.

File: Screen Shot 2017-07-26 at 7.26.50 AM.jpg (1022KB, 3808x2098px) Image search: [Google]

1022KB, 3808x2098px

Video games can tell good stories. The problem is the industry wants profits and so they target the largest demographic--teenagers, especially JRPGs. The result is most games have mediocre stories that are r/im14andthisisdeep

Some games do have great stories. Kotor comes to mind as it's better than all the new movies.

>>385207127
>Vagrant Story,

He knows.