What the fuck happened to the MMO genre? How did we go from 10/10

>>385033447
There is an audience interested in these shitty games, and they want to spend far more money on them than you ever spent on your masterpieces.

Mobile games exist and you're ignoring them.

>>385033447
I get annoyed just by looking at that image.

Existing MMOs, MOBAs and mobile games have siphoned off most of the potential player pool. There isn't enough money in it to justify trying to compete with WoW.

>the MUMORPUGER genre died.
>before dragon quest X was localized

Theres no god in this earth.

>>385033447
Because devs don't play their own games. And the people who own the companies who own the devs are even more disconnected; for example they force their devs to show results and progress not knowing what actual game improvement and quality is. But mostly, devs don't play their own games. This is why Vannila WoW>WoW

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>>385033447
Literally WoW happened.

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>tfw you realize generations of gamers will never know what FFXI was like in its heyday

>>385033447
What happened is that a lot of companies made big mmos to make that sweet Wow money. This then divided the mmo community into smaller sections and made those game less successful since the market got overcrowded.

Lower profits made companies make safer bets or their mmo died. This created stagnation. At that point people just went for whatever the new mmo came out and dropped it in a month because it was sterile corporate games.

This lowered profits further. Companies scramble to make up the lost money and saw the booming phone game industry and Korean MMOs staying afloat off of Whales. So they all added cash shops making an even worse game because now they don't have to just create content for all players now they create most content for people who whale.

Everything is one of three flavors:

WoW-clone theme park tier chase

FTP P2W K-Grinder

"Sandbox" that tries to capture the nostalgia of UO but ends up being a P2W K-Grinder in disguise

No one makes anything different and even if someone did people wouldn't know what to do with it.

Because money killed RP.

>>385036234
>WoW-clone theme park tier chase
Strangely enough, WoW clones do a horrible job at cloning WoW when it comes to theme parking. WoW, at the very least, had multiple starting areas based on race but all the clones decided that it would be better to just steamline everything to one set path which makes playing multiple characters boring as fuck.

>>385035391
fucking Clash of Clans is a "mobile MMO"

The mmo playstyle is dead. A game needs to be easily playable by anyone at any time with low commitment strings.

I can play any moba or shooter and join friends to play at any time.

Mmo needs grinding to max, needs lots of time, needs groups of people working together to do end game content.

Ff14 is popular because it is the easiest most brain dead and slow mmo on the market. High end raiding is equal to do looking for raid in wow in terms of difficulty.

>>385033447
A lot of people, myself included used to play MMOs to the point we've wasted time or life on those games.

I haven't played an MMO lately because I'm catching up on all the old games I've missed or neglected.

MMO devs have shifted over into mobage which are pseudo-mmos.

Because most MMOs that come out are literal paint by the numbers korean trash produced to make a quick buck, and all of the western MMOs are designed with graphics/advertising first and then gameplay second.

WoW tried to appeal to every audience and lost most of them in the process.

>>385033447
You forgot GW1

>>385033447

>create an MMO that takes you directly to the "endgame" and doesn't waste your time
>"there's not enough content"

>create MMO where a significant portion of the game is story content
>"I don't want to do this content! I want to go to endgame to play with my ""friends"""

>create MMO with high levels of grinding and time commitment needed
>"I don't want to spend time to get the best stuff! Things should be scaled down to the amount of time I can spend."

>create an MMO with tons of side content and classes to level, playstyles to master
>"I don't want to do those things, if it isn't an epic raid where I can pug to get more ilvls, then its not """"real"""" content.

>design an MMO with a focus on difficult raids
>"This is too hard, please scale it down for my level this is clearly overtuned"

>design an MMO with more of a focus on easier raids
>"This raid tier was APPARENTLY cleared by WF players in one day, uh this doesn't appeal to my inner hardcore raider. Also I don't have a static."

No one should listen to MMO players.

too expensive to innovate

wait for wow2 and hope the clones are better pretty much

Mobas killed the pvp scene in most MMOs too

>>385037641
not an mmo

I honestly don't know and don't care, I just hope it dies bringing MOBAs together. These two alone are the biggest cancers plaguing gaming these days

>>385037558
>Lost most of them
>Nearly captured the entire market for over a decade
No the created something that can't be recreated but everyone tried to recreate it. Wow's success is only as crazy as it is because of timing. Its the Micheal Jordan effect. No other basketball player ever will be considered as good as him even if they were better then him in every way.

>>385036750

>Ff14 is popular because it is the easiest most brain dead and slow mmo on the market

Misspelled WoW. WoW is the reason the community for MMOs is gutter trash and will remain so for a decade more. Constant pandering to shit players and making raid content more of a side-gig than anything has made the most obnoxiously whiny brand of players. No other genre is filled with as many screaming retards.

>>385036750
>High end raiding is equal to do looking for raid in wow in terms of difficulty.
Say what now?

>>385037712
>You shouldn't listen to your player base
We have come full circle on corporate shilling it seems. Its because they don't listen to their player base that fail. The issues you are talking about is literally showing they did not apply the things their playerbase wanted.

>>385037876
Name ONE baller better than Michael Jordan since.

>>385033447
Depends on the community. Nowadays the community will always be shit because of bullshit meta efficiency garbage getting in the way of fun, varied ways to play and retain interest. Our information age also plays into this by making it so it is an expectation to study the game for 20 minutes and doing only one thing for 500 hours instead of experimenting. If you aren't a "meta player", people won't want to play with you because you're shit at the game. Back then this wasn't an issue because everybody was retarded and trying to figure the games out. Datamining and people who only play for efficiency killed the only fun elements in MMOs with any form of customization.

>>385033447
>dying
Um, sweetie... Dead.

>>385033447
the internet and people wanting massive databases to look shit up at.

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>>385033447
>Masterpieces
>Vanilla WoW
>Dark age of Camlot
Confirmed for never actually playing old MMO's

Eve online is still great, it's the only real sandbox mmo. Is there a /v/ corp?

>>385038463
for you maybe

>>385038092

No, they should never listen to the playerbase. The playerbase is retarded. Nu-WoW is built on playerbase requests and look where it went. It's pretty clear most players want "vertical progression, raid content that they can clear easily but still feel good about, special snowflake status but make them really useful in content." The current MMO generation wants ease and convenience at all costs. No dev has the balls to man up and make their players swallow the bitter pill of "something different" because then it'll cost hundreds of millions of dollars on dev cost and lost subs.

>>385038504
>wanting to play with /v/
Newfags are the worst.

>>385038463
>>Vanilla WoW
People don't actually remember Vanilla WoW. They remember Nax WoW but conveniently forgot how bad the game was from launch to that point.

>>385038968

I've played quake and ut2004 with /v/ before, it was fun

>>385038316
Pretty much this. WOW breaking the genre lead developers to focused on content treadmills which conditions the players to focus only on the next gate with no regard for the end game. What developers still somehow haven't figured out is that the players will always beat the content faster than they can create it.

>>385038982
Vanilla WoW back in the day is what Overwatch is to FPS today, a super casualized game with cartoonish graphics.
It's WoW that removed the whole RPG aspect of the MMO genre and made it into the shallow casualized games we have today.

mmos are shit because most mmo players don't actually want to play a good game. they just want a social platform where they can stroke their e-peens.

>>385039265
Wrong...

It was lots of people's first mmo. The draw of the game was leveling to 60 in a new world.

The only thing casual compared to other moms was the less harsh punishment for death.

>>385040171
>The only thing casual compared to other moms was the less harsh punishment for death.
And no RPG elements at all, classes were piss easy, mobs were super easy and the game basically hold your hand all the time.

If you seriously believe that you probably did not play a single MMO before WoW

>>385033447
Its novelty wore off.
It's also very inconvenient to spend several hours in one session without being able to take a break. I gave up on them because of this.

>>385036025
>weebshit with turn based combat
Noone cares.

>>385033447

Part of the problem is that there's a permanent mentality against the RP Side of things. also mmos can't seem to keep their scope small to match their potential playerbase and keep blowing the cash shop wide open every time.

The new generation is casual as fuck, deal with it

The first impressions wore off. In a digital age where everything is online by default, its no longer mind blowing for the new generation to be put into a fully online environment with thousands of other people. The games aren't really getting worse, they're just not as impressive anymore.

>>385036581
lotro had different starting areas for different races too

Making a community is impossible these days without some serious third party assistance. Also the ideal mmo community seems to function at a much smaller number than modern megaservers can bring, causing companies to shoot their potential in the foot.

Also there's a permanent level of toxin surrounding the sandbox genre thanks to minecraft and rust clones so that aspect is just outright fucked.

>>385033447
I wouldn't say dying but it's stale as shit, so long as the only goal in mind in their creation is the bottom line.

>tfw all my teenage memories are Dark Age of Camelot guild drama

im glad mmos are dead, they ruined my early life, maybe they wont ruin some kid's today

who am I kidding, nowadays kids just hang out in twitch chat giving money to imaginary friends, mmos were probably less bad

OSRS is the only good MMO at the moment. Let that sink in.

>>385038281
The boy KD

>>385038960

The end result is everything loses its impact, you no longer have people complaining about ridiculously strong mobs wandering a zone, you no longer have stories of how it took hours to traverse across a zone, how you met other people waiting for res sickness to drop off. Everything is just a haze of mediocrity, nothing is memorable anymore.

And now raiding hard content is the only way people feel like they capture what an MMO should feel like, accomplishing something difficult with a group of people and getting that new +100 numbers headpiece. Now content becomes heavily skewed towards letting people achieve that high, now people only care about raid content. Side content is disregarded in most cases as useless if it doesn't help you clear raid content. Players ask "where is the content" while ignoring everything else, even viewing misc content has purely unneeded or inconvenient. "I want to get to the content", they say, this attunement stuff is useless. These weekly quests are useless, why not let me just raid? But wait, the raid is also too difficult for me to get my MMO high, please arbitrarily separate it into enough difficulties that even a toddler playing LFR can pretty much get the same experience as a Mythic raider. And now in Legion, it's become something like "please daddy let me get pretty much the same rewards as world class raiders because I need my loot high too." And these players the the kinds of people who get "bored of WoW" but then go on to play other MMOs and complain just as incessantly about the game's systems until they're as close to WoW as possible because they're so used to Blizzard responding to their whinging.

What is sad is that Korean MMO's are often way superior than Western in terms of graphic,world and combat. They're often really fun in the alpha/beta but the devs ALWAYS makes shitty decisions, it turns to p2w and the direction the game is taking is always bad

>>385042094
>What is sad is that Korean MMO's are often way superior than Western in terms of graphic,world and combat

They're supposed to be so neet virgins can make hot female characters and watch them do flashy moves in a big empty sandbox

>>385033447
F2P fucked everything up. You just can't compete with that, no matter what the quality of your product is, unless you have a big name brand to sell like WoW or Final Fantasy. But typical offerings in MMOs don't attract whales very well, and MMOs suffer under typical F2P player turnover. Compared to the investment a full fledged MMO takes, it's hard for most companies to justify doing that instead of a shitty mobile game that takes five hours and an intern to poop out and start making money.

They've ultimately been priced out of the market.

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they killed mmos when they killed the pk

>play The Fourth Coming
>someone announces a pk in general chat
>noobs hide. high levels come show off and protect
>sense of dread and danger, will I venture into the high xp zone but risk getting killed
>high level buffs me and protects, I wanna be that guy one day

nowadays there's no danger, no excitement, no thrill

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Every fucking thread, you faggots.

Go play HellMOO. Get everyone who is bitching in these threads and start a corp in HellMOO with them. It has EVERYTHING you want.

>Sandbox experience
>Player interaction is mandatory and forced
>Hardcore Full Loot PVP. If someone kills you, they get all your shit.
>Fully Customizable characters (It's text. You can literally change your description to be a trench coat full of spiders.
>No themepark shit.
>No Blue, Purple, Orange gear. You literally use what you can.
>You affect the game world around you and make a name for yourself. You are feared not because the story told you that you were, you're feared because you're a 13 year old girl who has killed every single player in the game sixteen times.

Fucking, just go play it, retards. Get MUSHclient and go fucking play it.

>>385042409

Problem with modern PK is that dedicated autism beats out moralfaggotry in every scenario, leading to PK just being a zerg of netclassed retards looking to burn the game to the ground.

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>It's another complain about how MMO's today is shit while we ignore MMO's that tries to be like in the old days episode.
What's the deal with people pretending that they want to play an oldschool MMO when that has been proven wrong over and over again?

>>385033447
>10/10 masterpieces
>Vanilla WoW

Fuck off.

>>385042690

Because every time someone runs an old timey MMO you can see the jew in the corner? Like seriously, someone copied RO verbatim and then jewed it to oblivion.

>>385042690
Nostalgia faggots who can't admit how shit many of their "beloved" MMOs actually were because they were 12 year old at the time or only heard about it from their favorite Youtuber.

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stealth FFXIV thread?

Protip: The reason modern MMOs are shit is because they don't listen to the creator what could be considered the first "MMO", Richard Bartle and his paper, "Players Who Suit MUDs"


http://mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm

He literally nails down the four types of online game players: "Killers, Achievers, Socialisers, Explorers." Every multiplayer game needs to have these four archtypes of players or else they fail as a multiplayer experience. Killers need to kill socialisers, Explorers need to create shit for the achievers to do. All this shit was discovered by the guy who made the first MUD.

Modern MMOs appeal ONLY to the achievers who want to get purple gear and shit. Explorers have nothing to explore because LOL THEME PARK and socializers have nothing to do because all socializing is worthless with automatic party finders (and chat being a tiny box in the corner) and Killers are literally outlawed by the games mechanics.

You guys gotta stop using feelings for your arguments and site sources like I do. I am a god around here.

>>385042848
>>385042945
The sad part is when an MMO like Pantheon, that is even made by Brad McQuaid and does the best to capture the oldschool feeling none gives a shit. Instead they just whine on how Vanilla WoW was the epitome of a great MMO(When in fact WoW started the trend which made MMO's shit)

>>385043131
Every time a potential old school MMO does well it either gets fucked by Jews Hues or Mods. Makes it hard to find the gems when someone goes around actively shitting on them

>>385038352
Anon raises a good point here.
Literally every game has a Wiki up and running in a couple days, so everybody just figures out how to do shit on their own.
Trading in games isn't done in-client anymore, it's all just a network of bots scanning the auction boards.

Whats the best MMO to get into right now? Can I get into SMT:IMagine?

>play Everquest from 1999-2004
>fucking love it, but game starts going in a different direction with instances n shiet so i quit
>10 years later, 2014
>of all the MMOs played, no MMO captures the difficulty and immersion Everquest did
>remember all those fantastic EQ memories and want to relive them
>/v/: LOL EVERQUEST AND EARLY MMOS SUCKS ITS JUST NOSTALGIA GLASSES YOUR FIRST MMO
>find project1999
>it has a healthy, growing population
>try it out
>its fucking amazing and exactly captures what i felt in 1999
>play it for 2 years
>quit because work and family

I don't have as much time to play them as I used to, but I would kill for another difficult yet immersive and social MMO like Everquest that I could play casually.

>>385043772
This >>385042503

Fucking GO.

>>385043772
DEAD

>>385033447
>Everquest
>masterpiece
>WoW
>masterpiece
>not just an EQ clone
>hurr everything is now a WoW clone because WoW was successful *for an EQ clone

You have never played an Mmo outside of WoW confirmed.

>>385043806
Its a bit...text heavy senpai. Is it easy to get into?
>>385043839
Aye but any private servers or anything? Any other good weeb ones?

>>385033447
Too many half-hearted MMOs came out, and the result was mass amounts of shutdowns.

If you told players that Ultima Online would come out, last about 5 years, then be shut down, no one would have played it. The whole genre was built on this expectation that these games would continue to be around and that your time invested in them would always be there. The mass amount of shutdowns basically communicated that to players clearly: "our games don't respect your time and we can shut down the moment we feel like it."

None of the companies that were pumping out MMOs like EA or NCSoft really cared about the legacy and expectations these games were built on. When that was violated, the whole illusion is gone, and people see MMOs as huge time wasters and grind-fests instead of what they were meant to be: virtual worlds.

MMOs have adapted shortly into small scale survival games with less grind and more risk, games like minecraft where the longevity of the server and progress are safe in player's hands and they're able to start realizing some of the creative features they originally intended to have someday.

>>385038316
1000x THIS.

I don't know how many of you know DFO, but people asked me why I played Elemental Bomber (he is supposedly not a good class) and when I said that he is the most fun for me they couldn´t comprehend it. I also think metaplaying and finding everything on the internet by pros instead of figuring it out yourself screwed MMO playing pretty much.

>>385044250
>Its a bit...text heavy senpai.
The game is literally only text.
>Is it easy to get into?
Get a friend to play it with you. It's hilarious figuring it out together.

>>385033447
never find a single good mmo
really make me think

>>385033447

The genre never really evolved and someone always has an excuse as to why. Normally it's the cost or technology isn't ready for it yet or something like that.

>>385043804
Check out Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen, made by the same guy that did everquest and he's doing his best to do it like and oldschool MMO like everquest.

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>>385033447

MMOs are doing fine, thank you. It's just that people refuse to admit that they've grown tired of it, and blame the game for not getting their attention when it's actually them who don't have the patience to commit like they used to when teenagers.

I just started BDO recently and been having a blast so far, but I'm playing it casually, just taking my time and digesting everything in the game slowly.

>>385043804
Good luck with that. EQs partying and grinding and high difficulty were only closely matched in ffxi from what I've played.

>>385044596
Eh fuck it here we go

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>>385040446
imagine being this big of a faggot lmao

The problem with MMOs is developers and players. It's a cycle and one feeds into the other.
Basically developers pushed what a MMO is so hard that players believed it, and now when a game deviates from this predefined formula players get pissy, so developers cater to these players which further enforces their concept of what a MMO is.
Unfortunately for us, the base concept was bad.

You can even test this out pretty easily. Go to any MMOs forums to the feedback/suggestion section and make some kind of post stating something "this feature would be better if you changed it to be more like this". Even if the idea is better and would make for a better game, the players will tell you it's bad because their concept of a MMO is so cemented any change is bad to them.

This is the core problem with MMOs. Developers wont try anything new and the players wont accept anything new.

>>385033447
>Everquest
>WoW
>10/10

Is Dark and Light fun?

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>>385040171
>The only thing casual compared to other moms was the less harsh punishment for death.
No Experience Loss, No Loss of Equipment, No Loss of Skills or Status, No Thief of Items, No delay on skills or movement (Great control helped streamlined the game to a larger audience), VERY Quick and Easy to hit max level in a MMO for the time, Not a very grindy game compared to most MMOs (see tradeskills), Looks great despite it running on a toaster even to this day. WoW is literally was the first soft, safe, rounded corners version of a MMO that had the 'star power' of Blizzard and amazing line up of games that followed up until WoW drew in the carebear audience and ruined that forever

>>385045685
amazing argument, friend

>>385045787
I would not call it an MMO really, it's ARK in a high fantasy setting.
I find it a bit fun, it's ARK but more fun but it has server issues and shit making it hard to play

Mmos now so easily soloable. People don't want to party or don't even say hi. And those in groups are normalfags who play with friends from rl. I just wanted some journey in new world where i could meet some people

>>385045938

Doesn't it have pre-built cities and NPC inhabitants, including merchants/vendors? I don't remember Ark having those.

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MMO's aren't dead
You can still get 4 friends and go play this
It still gets updated too

There's literally nothing stopping you from going back and playing all the old classics you never did, other than vague depression and desire to maintain your nostalgia

>>385040670
ffxi didnt really have turn based combat, just very very slow auto attack and then waiting for TP to get up high enough to use skills to hit a little harder

>>385046051
Yeah it has some of those stuff and factions and such.
I guess the best way to describe it is ARK in a high fantasy setting with some RPG elements. I know most people hate the "sandbox survival crafting" meme games, but it's one of the most fun games to play if you have friends.

>>385046236

Well that sucks since I have nofriendz

>>385043121
no the problem is that none of those four groups is "people who want to play a good game."

>killers: griefers who have fun by ruining things for everyone else
>achievers: faggots who want to stroke their e-peen by having bigger numbers than everyone else
>socializers: faggots who just want a 3d chat room
>explorers: faggots who want e-peen for finding stuff

as long as mmos focus on being a social platform first and a playable game second or third or fourth they're always going to be garbage.

>>385045793
You can add no instanced dungeons too so scrubs could get gears.

I liked vanilla WoW too for what it was but I cant help but to facepalm when people put it in the same sentence as EQ.

Dark Souls MMO when?

>>385047637
I remember trying EQ2 when it came out and seeing where the direction MMO's were heading.

Then WoW came along, worked on every computer ever, streamlined the game genre, and drew in the 2nd worst playerbase ever.

>>385033447
Fucking soulless cashgrabs these days.
Microtransactions and F2P can eat a dick.
I'm fucking done with MMOs. Except when Destiny 2 releases what the fuck is wrong with me

>>385047982

What's the worst, DOTA or Counter-strike 1.7?

>>385048146

In 2003?

Yeah I would say Counter-Strike or maybe Diablo 2

>>385037712
MMORPGs are about social features like players becoming kings, or belonging to factions, having who you kill in the game matter.

All you listed is modern MMO bullshit from people that just want combatand gear, you are the cancer that killed mmorpgs

>>385048146
>>385048280
I meant that it drew out the 2nd worst playerbase now-a-days. The casual crybaby. Obviously MOBA's are the worst playerbase ever

WoW did.

It was a passable copy of some older games at first, but changed the demographic irreparably.

It's no longer people who want to play an MMO, it's a brain-addled crowd of people who demand a constant content drip, but content to be accessible enough to instantly complete it, are frightened of any sort of PvP or competition, demand the game be written like an awful single player wrpg, demand everything be doable solo, need everything to be as convenient and rewarding as possible at the same time, demand overly fancy combat mechanics in a social genre, want "exploration" but will endlessly complain about nonlinearity and see anything non-optimal as wasted time. Lots of them in this thread, in fact.

>>385048471
Basically they want a single player game and not to be bothered by anyone or anything else.

>>385046219

>People shittalking FFXI now wouldn't even have the common sense on how to skillchain or magic burst

Feels bad man. That was the real casual filter. Nothing like feeding the Jeuno town crier some hot bantz that a specific 40 morons shouldn't be invited to parties due to being inadequate.

>>385048742

but it has to be online enough that they can show off their pixels to a bunch of scrubs before teleporting to their next 5-minute end-rush daily instance.

>>385048364

>Back then
>Had inordinate amounts of time to gush and gob on MMO's.
>Shit was fun.

>Now
>Hardly any time to MMO but on days off
>Don't want to sit around and inevitably fail or get ninja looted / RNG cockblocked for my little free time.

Eh..

>>385042409

>PKing
>Ever truly welcome without a zerg.

Age of Wushu has PKing, and when you PK you get thrown in jail AND piss off guilds AND get branded a tard on the server AND

Oh it's just stupid. Why even have it if it's nothing but a bad thing?

>>385043253

RIP Wonderking Online and ROSE Online. Too fun to last.

>>385038352
>>385043460

Can't fault people for this because most MMO's are PvP-centric and generally even PvE looting is PvP since there's always competition for a drop. If information wasn't readily available, it'd be an elite group of douchebags and a whole lot of people getting stomped by those who are 'in the know'. Nothing screams dead game more than an illuminati of people who know where the holy dragon gonad necklace spawns once every 72 hours, and hoard them until they get nerfed and move on to the next rare drop of low knowledge.

Wikis are welcome to even out the playing field. If you don't want competition, get on a private server or something?

>>385033447
Because MMO's were always trash, its just that video games were shit and expensive in the past. You also have so many options and MMO's are trash so people pick those other options.

>>385045793

My only gripe with that statement of yours is no experience loss.

>Why make an open world and encourage exploration than discourage exploration immediately with exp loss and aggro?

What the fuck did Square-Enix mean by that?

>>385048146

>Worst non-MOBA
Fighting gamers.

MOBA's otherwise take the shit cake.

BDO has most of the stuff people want nowadays but is just too triggered to actually play a none western MMO

It's just a dated form of gaming. MMO's are, by and large, just glorified turn-based combat at the entry-level, and spamming the exact same one or two combinations of button presses at the raid level. It got old and, more importantly, significantly harder to justify spending hundreds of dollars on them. The market that was okay with pumping $15 dollars into the same experience every month is now getting that same fix via MOBAs and mobile games, where you get a lot more gratification alongside those payments.

>>385040446
So which mmo had hard classes at the time?
I played L2 before and most classes could get by on spamming a single ability

>>385039227
>What developers still somehow haven't figured out is that the players will always beat the content faster than they can create it.

Automation will solve this.

>>385049919
The problem with BDO is that all your hard work amounts to a really shitty PvP system and grind at the end.

I love BDO's systems for workers/crafting etc but I wish it had a more fulfilling "end"

>>385050041

But botting is banned, ain't it?

Marvel Future Fight has the right idea allowing autoplay, but it's not really an MMO

>>385049919
How bad is the cash shop?

>>385050098
But it has the best PvP endgame of any MMO's? You can actually do PvP stuff with your guild. What exact endgame are you referring to that other games have, doing dungeons over and over again?

>>385038316
This is a huge part of it. I stopped playing WoW when I stopped being allowed to participate in raids because other players didn't like some minute change the latest patch made to my class.

It's happening to sports too. Analytics is almost inherently anti-fun and sacrifices any sort of expression for the sake of results.

>>385047961
when the latency issues go away
so about 100 years from now

>>385049710
Experience Loss sucks (especially in grindy games) but I find it very interesting. It creates the idea that can progress backwards for playing like an idiot. Your life is on the line. You want to play in such a way where you don't make mistakes.

What you do and how you play matters.


I am glad this isn't a normal feature in pretty much all MMOs nowadays but completely dropping these elementary ideas and concepts like penalties for your actions, makes what you do feel like it doesn't matter at all. This is a big problem in most games that come out today.

>>385040171
lmao

t. babby that didn't play mmos before wow

>>385038316

So when Net Neutrality is dead and the American population has to spend 200 extra dollars a month to access sites for games, will some MMO's go back to the stone age of retardation?

>>385050376
>BDO
>Best PvP Endgame
Maybe if you play certain classes after grinding for weeks and have top gear.

>>385049919
BDO for me as a pve player just has something missing. I never played any raid MMOs and shit so I don't desire or miss those things. But I swear it's just missing one thing. It's honestly probably the shitty framerate I get that's preventing me from enjoying it. Otherwise the combat is pretty fantastic with good diversity in classes. I think having more channels would be nice since I don't really enjoy pvping for grind spots so I just log in check if someone is there and log out if all my spots are taken. It was nicer when the game was totally dead.

MMO's died on November 23rd, 2004.

>>385033447
there's always hellmoo, at least

>>385040446
Vanilla WoW had more complex combat mechanics than all its competitors and the mobs were hard back then (unless you were a hunter) Most classes would die if they pulled 3 mobs.

>>385050593
I play the "worst class in the game(Kuno)" and I still preform at the top in my guild...so yeah you just need to get gud.

>>385048913
>counting to three and using a weapon skill
>Even sort of a casual filter

You speak no sense.

>>385050678
>MMO's

>>385033447
most people don't have the money to afford expensive PC systems and instead put money in towards a system or a new phone, so phone games have become more popular.

Plus, so many MMORPG's have turned into complete pay to win garbage shit fests, with the same generic gameplay and asian characters people started getting tired of it.

>>385049919
>BDO has most of the stuff people want nowadays
How about more than 6 armor styles and actual fucking raids

>>385050487
there are too many ways you can get killed that are completely out of your control. power outages, lag spikes, etc. no one wants to lose days of progress because your cat knocked over the router.

>>385051035

The concept of grouping in BDO isn't even a thing until level 56, and even then nobody even considers grouping with anyone outside their stupid guild. You don't even have to say a single word to another player until 56. It is a glorified online singleplayer game.

>>385049419
Who says I'll be one of the illuminati? The whole point is working to become something, and that includes finding things out for yourself, not looking everything up instantly.

If everyone but you has looked everything up, you're going to get stomped left and right. If only one small group knows the secrets because they found them for themselves, you have plenty of people who're in the same position as you to compete with - assuming you're not in that group.

>>385051221
Don't forget with how the AH/Trading works you can't even trade things to other players.

>>385047961
Dude seriously this.

>>385033447
Kids want instant gratification these days, and they'll pay money for microtransactions to get it even quicker.

Where did the "FFXIV is ridiculously easy" meme come from? The optional content is pretty clearly made to wipe a newfag party a few times, and even some of the HW/SB story content has stuff that's pretty easy to trip up on.

Did they just play mandatory 2.x material?

>>385033447
>Greedy companies, over-saturated market
>Fans that honestly don't know what they want
>Devs that either don't listen to their fans or listen to the stupid ones.
>Fickle fanbase
>Grinding != content
>Everyone's following the survival game meme lately
Take your pick.

>>385051221
>You don't even have to say a single word to another player until 56. It is a glorified online singleplayer game.
Tell me one MMO that requires you to group up to hit "max" level

Why the fuck is tjat faggot mod still deleting ffxiv threads? Fucking cuck

>>385051889
Go back to /vg/.

>>385052010
Fuck no.

>>385033447
It
was
always
shit

>>385051791

Anything that doesn't have a duty finder.


>>385052010

>Stop talking about videogames on /v/! Videogame discussion belongs on /vg/!

>>385052010
Go back to BLACKED.com ya cuck

>>385051791

Today? I can't think of one, which is sad.

>>385050616
i don't feel like bdo was meant to be a pve-game if you don't count lifeskills, it's just meaningless. no progression to be made, no prestige, no adventure, no rewards, and this worked fine (for the pvpers) for the first 6 months when the game was fresh and everyone racing to the endgame. if you wanted a half decent grind spot you would have to pvp for it, always leading into hours of gvgs etc which was an amazing time. then they tried to bring in more players by reducing the price of the game more and more, offering free trials and putting the game on steam. now there simply isn't enough space to accomodate the grinders, and pvp has been butchered in a number of ways by removing exp loss, increasing karma penalty not to mention the servers can't handle the amount of new players (it couldn't even function properly when the playerbase was at its lowest)

game world is too small, too many areas are empty and serves no purpose, instead of chaining lootfest events and attendance awards together they should have buffed drop/exp rates and added more mobs in the level 50-60 areas

they've made so much money off the eu/na release but none of it goes back into the game, it's just a sick joke

>>385052137
>Anything that doesn't have a duty finder.
If there's so many games that does this name me 3 well known MMO's that you must group up to hit max level

>>385052227
Even back in the days you were not forced to group up

>>385052164
>Paying money every month to grind
now who's the cuck!?!

>>385052039
>>385052137
>>385052164
24/7 threads are the whole reason /vg/ was created. If you don't want to go to /vg/ to discuss a game that has already been discussed to death, do it somewhere else and quit clogging up the catalog with your general after general week after week.

>>385050041
Automation just repeats an existing processes. So whatever that process is, it will just repeat that ad nauseam.

>>385052301

That's the grand total number of MMOs that I've played, but I know from my brief time with Mabinogi that you're not even going into the dungeons without approaching people.

No duty finder = you find a group via talking to people.

>>385052301

Everquest, DAoC, SWG, Vanilla WoW, City of Heroes, all required grouping to make any sort of progression in both leveling and gear. You could try and solo in some of them, but it would be horrendously slow and class dependent. Grouping was essential in all aspects of the game.

>>385052137
>videogames
>Videogame
You do realize it's not one word, right?

>>385052590
We talked about reaching max level here anon, not doing dungeons.
You have still not namned a single game

>>385052663
>Grouping was essential in all aspects of the game.
No it was not, not in a single one of them. You could easily hit max level without even talking to anyone in those games.

>>385035314
Thread should've ended here.

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>>385052827

WoW hit a sweet spot with appearance and mechanics. A bunch of other MMOs did the same, with different flavors. The only thing "dead" is any new MMO. That's because the entire business plan of an MMO is to give more rewards for more hours played and continuously introduce new rewards to keep the players in the game.

When choosing between a new MMO that doesn't look or play that much better, why wouldn't they choose to continue playing the game in which they've already advanced characters and social contacts?

>>385052827

>I play MMOs just to grind to max level! I don't do anything other than killing small fry and running chores until I can't level up anymore!
>You don't progress through the actual content?
>No, I just fight trash mobs in the field.

Seriously, anon.

>>385053240
Nice goalposting.

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>>385053240
That's exactly what you do in BDO though.

>>385049010
That's a problem with you, dipshit. The genre clearly SHOULDN'T be made for people with you

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>>385052663
>Vanilla WoW
>required grouping for progression in leveling
actually grouping up to level in vanilla WoW was LESS efficient than solo grinding UNLESS you were a warrior who was below level 30. Mob exp had a set value that was barely changed depending on how many people were in your party, so a monster that gave 100 exp to you solo would give you 55 if you were in a group of two people. The only reason you'd ever group up with anyone is if you wanted to run a dungeon or do an elite quest, but you could just as easily skip both of those up until lvl 50+ where gear actually started to matter. As far as leveling goes, you always wanted to run solo because most grinding spots you'd clear out before they started to respawn anyway.

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>>385035795
WoW is better than its ever been rn, just lacks the player base

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Is there any other genre of game where you can pay to NOT play?

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/tales_of_adventure/

>Don't play our game!
>It only costs 30 dollars!

People do it to get to "the good part" but the truth is that there is literally no good part, it's all just making a number bigger then before, so you can kill super monster #324231 so you can get items that make your numbers bigger then before, etcetcetc

Name ONE other game genre where you can pay to not play.

>>385053879
WoW did it first

>>385053363

Your fault for using a stupid, irrelevant metric in regards to describing the original problem.

Sure, TECHNICALLY, you can grind through probably just about any MMO as if it were a single player game by only doing the mundane space fillers that are designed for one player and don't require multiplayer progression. However, if you have to group up in order to do the actual content, it's not really a glorified single player game with optional multiplayer, is it?

>>385054334
Except the endgame in BDO has ALWAYS and will always be Nodewars and Guild PvP. And that requires more grouping up and coordination than any PvE MMO in the market.
Your argument is that the game is a "singleplayer" game because you don't have to group up when killing mobs when that's not even the goal of the game.
The so called optional multiplayer is the focus and goal of the game.

>>385044429
Would it be possible for an open-source MMO to work, making money for the original company by selling server time instead of the software? Then, when the original company discontinues their servers (or even while they're up), other groups could run their own servers.

People would probably use the "official" servers because (a) they're "official" and guaranteed maintained, (b) that's where everyone else plays, and (c) they don't care/know enough to change the defaults.

>>385053879

>Skip the job quests but you still have to do the story quests

Oh I can see some sucker thinking this allows them to skip to heavensward.

>>385038463
10six was the GOAT and has never been topped

>>385054618
That's what Legends of Aria (formerly Shards Online) is doing with its community run "shard" servers that have their own rulesets. It's still really rough though.

No game has come close to the smooth combat that WoW has. That is the sole reason there hasn't been a good MMORPG since WoW.

>>385054563

I haven't played BDO, but you weren't asking about BDO specifically. You were asking about MMOs in general.

In regards to games that require you to team up with other players and don't have a duty finder to automate the process and allow you to ignore that there are other people playing, yes, they do exist.

>>385055001

I've always wondered, how did wow get around the latency issues in early game? Every other fucking game on the market for decades had that shitty half second delay between pressing the button and acting.

>>385033447
It was never good. It only felt good because you played it with a group of friends you made while playing.

>>385055001
>No game has come close to the smooth combat that WoW has
wildstar.

>>385055001
FFXIV
Black Desert Online
Tera
Blade & Soul
Lost Ark

all have better combat

>>385051791
Tree of Savior tbqh

>>385035654
Will you go to Heaven when you die? Here’s a quick test: Have you ever lied, stolen, or used God’s name in vain? Jesus said,
“Whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
If you have done these things, God sees you as a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart,
and the Bible warns that one day God will punish you in a terrible place called Hell.
But God is not willing that any should perish. Sinners broke God’s Law and Jesus paid their fine.
This means that God can legally dismiss their case:
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
Then Jesus rose from the dead, defeating death. Today, repent and trust Jesus, and God will give you eternal life as a free gift.
Then read the Bible daily and obey it. God will never fail you.

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>>385053879
>people do it to get to "the good part" but the truth is that there is literally no good part
The thing is that, even if the whole leveling progression was the good part, people still have this idea that "you are too late to join the ride" if the game is more than a year old. You may ignore this silly kind of mentality, but it is a ghost that haunts many potential new players.
And, as a jewish individual, there is no reason to ignore people trying to give you loads of money for silly reasons. People asked for this, and they got exactly what they wanted.

>>385033447
Because everyone is no longer a manchild or they killed themselves due to only playing one game in the last ten years instead of living fulfilling lives.

>>385053609
This is true and salty weebs will never admit it

The game can be as casual or as hardcore as you want it to be it's beautiful

>>385055361
>may ignore this silly kind of mentality, but it is a ghost that haunts many potential new players.
So... is XIV worth playing in 2017 if you're new?

>>385055361
Know what other misguided idea people have? That MMOs aren't complete shite

>>385055178
Lol the only game there that even comes close is BDO, which has shit combat before awakening

>>385055580
>which has shit combat before awakening
The combat was 1000x better before awakening, what the fuck are you talking about?
And WoW has the most boring combat of any MMO

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>>385055124
>Wildstar

>>385055495

If this isn't a rhetorical question, yes. Though it's more like a single player game with grinding and occasionally having to endure retards for duty finder.

>>385051791
>>385052227
Is Revelation Online supposed to be one? People kept telling me RevO was not solo-friendly.

>>385055001
>No game has come close to the smooth combat that WoW has
even GW2 is miles and above in terms of smooth combat

>>385035417
Yeah me too, I imagine an insanely high pitched voice like that faggot from game theory.

>>385055095
WoW's base global cooldown is 1.5s. When you press a button, the client immediately executes the action on screen. The problem with this is that if the server lags then this can cause sync issues with animations, that's why you see peoples characters having a seizure when they mash a ton of buttons at once.

>>385055730
It has better combat than WoW. It has better combat than most mmos too.

Would you play a Warcraft single player RPG /v/?

>>385055981
WoW combat feels especially dated, even considering how dated the rest of it feels. Tab target combat has no place in civilized society in 2017.

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>>385056305
if only there were such a thing

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>>385055716
WoW has a super wide range of combat complexity, BM hunter you can play with literally 1 macro, shadow priest and disc priest require in depth knowledge of CDs and rotations and mouse over macros to do well, if you weren't too dumb to get good at the combat you'd actually enjoy it

Vanilla wow sure had pretty boring slow pve combat but it's come a very long way since then

BDO is a button masher that has a bunch of fancy animations and even more fancy animations with awakening that doesn't quite make it fun or rewarding to me

>>385056294
That must be the reason for it's success then

>>385054990
>Legends of Aria
Shit, looking at the website's actually got me excited for an MMO. From what I've read, it'll still hit a snag when the official server "cluster" goes down.

>>385056589
It's a damn shame what happened to wildstar but success wasn't the point. Fag said no mmo has combat as smooth as wow's, I disagreed. Don't move the goal post.

>>385042409
>PKing
Make me remember the good times of Flyff.
PKing was fun, then you would get trow in a shitty prison island and get out to PK some more.
Then got ride of the prison and add a malus of damage for every kill you did, which completely killed the PK system since the only way to get ride of those was by feeding some shitty fairies your exp

>>385055716
No that is FF14 my friend. And GW2 isn't all that great because skills are tied to weapons

>>385056305
Hell yeah. I was always playing the RPGs people made with WC3 custom maps.

>>385056859

If only GW2 had interesting skills.

>>385056589
The reason wildstar failed wsent because of combat. It was because it was glitchy, and terribly optimized despite the cartoony graphics. Not to mention if tried to cater to the vocal minority who wanted vanilla WoW. Protip a vast majority of people don't want vanilla WoW including the nostalgia fags who whine for it.

>>385057167
It's a shame that for most dps classes auto attacking will be your primary damage.

>>385056305
WC3 campaign was probably the closest we'd get, or Vanilla WoW if you pay attention to levelling lore and play on an RP server

>>385056305
underage

>>385057979
why

>>385052948
Ugh I don't need to see Drumpf here

>>385058004
not taking the bait, this will be my last post in this thread

>>385033447
But EQ was hot garbage and WoW was mediocre. DAoC's only saving grace was RvR.

So you had one 10/10 game, UO, and that was it.

>>385055480
>Imlygn

PEOple had too many choices

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>>385058395

>le tank mage spammy
>10/10

>>385033447
grinding sucks.

brain dead simple rpg combat systems suck.

>>385033447
>Vanilla WoW
>10/10 masterpiece
boy I sure do love eating and drinking after EVERY pull for no fucking reason other than to waste my ticking subscription time

Ultima Online is rightfully named as it has proven to be the ultimate MMO.

I remember my first time in WoW as a Tauren Warrior and finding a sword I couldn't equip because of a fucking level requirement.

It baffled me. I uninstalled on the spot and never played another MMO. Character levels are the worst thing to ever happen to MMOs.

Ultima online is probably the most overrated MMO ever and I bet most people that praise it did not actually play it

>>385058843

>complains about tank mage
>implying poison/archery didn't rape them

Do you even UO?

Are there any mmos that I can make gay friends on

>>385059317

How to spot a casual MMO shitter.

You probably played rogue in vanilla WoW cause it only required 3 buttons.

>>385059468
Any of the heavy ERP mmos

>>385042503
>le text only games

What is this, the 80s?

>>385033447
Probably been said but fuck it. MMOs were niche and always have been. there wasn't an mmo market there was just wow. now they've gone back to what they were again.

>>385043121

>He literally nails down the four types of online game players: "Killers, Achievers, Socialisers, Explorers."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmCyPXv5APY

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>>385033447
>Vanilla WoW
>Masterpiece
>Not the game that literally killed the genre.

>>385056305
Yes. Give me Dragon Age: Origins but in Warcraft-verse.

I'll even take Witcher in Warcraft-verse despite Witcher having zero CYOC options, which is the best thing about RPGs.

>People complain about "nu MMOs" being shit
>Jagex makes Darkscape, old school sandboxy Runescape with the addition of open world PvP
>Nobody plays it, gets shut down pretty quick

MMO players are fucking liars about what they actually want, people want themepark raid games where they can feel special for hitting the end game but paradoxically also want to be special for hitting the end game that was specifically made easy for them to hit.

>>385059641
Which are? I haven't ever played one so i'm not sure.

>>385060125
"le epic hardcore mmo" was always a meme. that type of audience is niche as fuck and won't generate money.

>>385060126
FFXIV, Tera, BDO, PSO2 aka the big ERP 4

>>385060054

Still a good game tho.

>>385060054
this image should be updated. tigole's real name is jeff kaplan and he works on overwatch as lead designer.

>>385060454
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMDItOwN_SU

>wow
>masterpiece

Everything thats wrong in MMO today can be traced back to WoW specifically blizzards stupidity

>>385035776
>Vannila WoW>WoW
lmao spotted the nostalgia fag

>>385033447
in my humble opinion there are VERY few good MMOs and some of them are independently made. 99% of MMOs ever since Everquest (and yes including WoW) are literally ok make ur character and race, start in this area, complete tutorial, kill 10 of this pig or similar easy enemy, collect 5 of this fruit, now go explore and quest and grind until your level 70 and ensure to dedicate the next year of your life to it until the expansion comes out. There's alot of cool areas to explore and I've always loved the aesthetic of MMO's like WoW or Guild Wars but other than that they are all literally the same shit and It's such a turn off. Can't get into them anymore.

>>385055001

Wildstar shockingly is more responsive and better feeling to just move around in than WoW. Only MMO I've ever seen that could manage that. Sadly that game is dead as fuck due to shit developers.

>>385038316
FUCKING this.
The best moment in ragnarok online were with "noobs", when most people were just playing their way, having random set.

Everything now is "Guild WOE ONLY, FOLLOW DISCORD ORDER, DO THIS DO THAT", it's like having a second job.
Back in the "days", people where just going in the castle for the cheer fun and chaos, tons of people playing with their friends naturally communicating, and stuff like that.

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>>385060267

>FFXIV, Tera, BDO, PSO2 aka the big ERP 4

Spoken like someone who had no clue at all

SecondLife is the top of the pile for ERP by a country mile, it has more monthly players than EVE or SWTOR or any western MMO sans WoW / FFXIV entirely due to how well it does ERP, people dump hundreds of dollars to buy clothing, cocks, boobs, and sex toys from other Anons.

In 2nd place is WoW due to the sheer number of people and the mountain of porn that keeps people going back for more.

3rd place is a bunch of Asian shit that no one really cares about including FFXIV where people can rub catgirls together or fuck 1,000 year old loli's that are totally not children or w/e.

>>385061734
First of SecondlIfe is not an MMORPG.
Second, WoW barely got any players in the West, it's nearly dead here now.
>Spoken like someone who had no clue at all
Oh the irony.

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>>385033447
The genre has had a few gems but nothing that hits all of the important bases.

Good mechanics. Tab targeting is dead. It's over. Players are to the point where they want some physics. Even Overwatch is dying for its boring movement mechanics and binary mechanic design. Players want to have fun and tabing through targets isn't fun.

A convincing world. Nobody wants to play an MMO that feels disconnected and instanced. WoW works because everything, at least, feels connected. Boring as flight paths are, they prevented players from feeling like they were playing on "levels." The world all felt like one connected place (except for instanced dungeons which were a pretty necessary evil for their game).

Art direction and lore is also super important. WoW's is pretty bad but, compared to the trash in other games, it's gold. I dream of an MMO with Dark Souls like lore. That should be something somebody offers. Nobody offers it.

And continuous content. Players don't want to play other games. They only want to play their favorite MMO. It's their new life. You can't release an MMO and expect people to stick around while you fix your game engine because your artists and designers are waiting on programmers to fix their game engine. They'll quit because the emotional investment they made isn't paying off. Shit like this is what killed Destiny.

Nothing really "killed" the MMO. People just don't design good ones. Nothing actually hits all of these marks and it's obvious why WoW is dying. It's obvious why people don't play TERA. None of them hit all of the bases. This is obvious shit.

I come to these threads to see people talk about City of Heroes. No one has yet, I am disappoint.

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>>385062158
Talking about dead games makes me sad

Wow is STILL the best MMO. Tells you all about the genre

>>385062335
you can stop shilling that dead shitty game now

>>385062028

>First of SecondlIfe is not an MMORPG.

SecondLife is one of the most pure MMO games still out there, it's an online sandbox where you can literally do whatever the fuck you want including playing games. It has a fully integrated marketplace where people create their own virtual goods, sell them in their own stores to to other players and those items can be used in the game pretty much however you want. Are you going to argue that because there isn't a level grind it's not an MMORPG?

>>385062392
it has no RPG elements therefor it's not an MMORPG. With your logic you could consider The Sims Online an MMORPG also

>>385062375
Tell me one better MMO

>>385062660
all of them.

>>385061216
The combat was shit for pvp tho. Aiming and dodging were shit thanks to lag, and anything with 6+ players turned into a clusterfuck of spamming aoe.

>>385062560
But TSO does have RPG elements. It has skills you learn over time and stats you must maintain.

>>385062737
So you can't even say one. Point proven

>>385062916
you know you need to be over 18 to browser here?

As someone whose tried most MMO's the last 12 years or so i'd just say that the need for huge worlds to talk to everyone isn't there anymore and alot of people got burnt out on the whole thing since most games are about being online nowadays. Most mmo's pre-2010 had good followings for awhile and were always fun even if it wasn't the greatest of games. Now it's all about the same formula shit with some house or base customization and cash shops. I miss games like Flyff, City of Heroes, Star Wars: Galaxies, 2004-2010 Runescape. Shit like that. Hell even that mmo cartoon network made wasn't half bad and I know people are working on reviving the game with huge new content. I still find myself stuck playing these games though like an on and off addiction.

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>>385042503
Stop advertising this shitty game. This garbo has been at it for years with 0 meaningful updates and only gets worse and worse as time goes on. There is almost 0 content in the game. It's a grind all the way through and you can't even play the game until you hit 100k at MINIMUM. If you fell for any noob traps, you have to reroll. After grinding your journals and jobs, then you grind mobs forever until you're granted the ability to play the game. The "game" is just PvP which is now restricted. The combat is bad in general and can be summed up as "Who can get their RNG stuns off". Most players don't even PvP in the first place. They just ERP in their apartment.

Don't play this garbo MOO.

>>385033447

the tank, dps, and healer trinity has pretty much killed mainstream mmo creativity

>>385033447
Too much game, not enough technology.
Graphics can't keep up with the amount of players. That and early game quests are usually mindnumbingly boring.

We just need to wait till devs start making engines and technologies specifically optimized for MMOs

>>385063326
Wrong.

Guild Wars has tanks/dps/healers and is also one of the most creative and interesting MMOs ever made

>>385033447
To me there was Star Wars Galaxies...

That was it. I don't really like mmo's. But Star Wars Galaxies was something special. Yeah it lost magic after updates but I had some truly amazing fun in that game.

PvP servers were top fucking notch. Jedi makes himself known? All hell breaks loose.

>>385062117
There is literally nothing wrong with tab target, I'd like it if MMO's would stop trying to make pseudo action bullshit and focus on making the RPG elements deeper instead of "don't stand in the fire" or action combat with fuckhuge hitboxes just to make everything functional.

>>385040171
>Wrong, it was lots of people's first mmo in a cool new world!

How is that a counter-argument to "It was casual."?

>>385063864
If anything action combat makes the game worse because most of them have TTKs higher than a few seconds. It feels like you're sitting there doing nothing despite all the graphical effects and movement happening.

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there won't be another good MMO until the third generation VR sets are released

VRMMOs will be the next big thing

t. time traveler

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People who are maklng MMOS are fucking retarded and make games for people who don't exist, all people want is a fucking HARDCORE MMO that actually had endgame. That's fucking it, WoW-clone but hard. That's it. Nothing else.

If one more fucking retard dev decides to make a third person "action" MMO where you free-aim everything like b&s, wildstar, BDO i'll go fucking crazy

nobody fucking wants that shit, the community for these types of games is so absurdly tiny because the combat (while fun) at first becomes completely boring and lacks depth compared to how smooth and polished a simple WoW clone nameplate based targetting system is.

When you play a tab target game you have so much more control over everything, timing things and playing ranged can ACTUALLY be at a range because they can see everything well, time it, use bars and nameplates to play properly.

In an action MMO all you get is a bunch of people in basically melee range ALL the time no matter what they're playing
https://youtu.be/xTBZMlrmXwU?t=288

Look at this shit, everyone is within a few feet of the boss even on ranged units, it just takes all tactics and throws them out the window to do with anything positioning, role based or anything AoE making boss fights mechanics impossible and they will always come down to something fucking gay

I can't believe people making these fucking games don't see this it's driving me crazy, the point is you CAN'T go at range because all your fucking spells need to be targeted on the floor an therefore standing at range is a huge disadvantage or impossible to aim properly

example of WoW vs BDO/whatever the fuck else. If you ever raid mythic WoW you'll instantly see just how fucking stupid every other MMO is in comparison, WoW isn't hard at all but the others are so fucking mindless all you even do is tank and spank and stand there slamming keys right under the boss.

fuck sake man stop making these SHIT games nobody wants them

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>>385064264
Fuck VR, I want the next step after that. Being able to jack my brain directly in the game.

>>385064397
Wait until you're looking around a village, keeping an eye out for would be assassins played by other players

Then you have to cast a spell using specific hand motions with the VR controllers

then he detonates and gibs fly everywhere and you saved the day

>>385059963
>>385057206
Wildstar was shit, scanning the same mandatory plant 5000 other people scanned right before you isn't 'exploration', it was just another shitty themepark activity. Wildstar didn't go for any kind of niche crowd either, it felt exactly the same as current WoW and didn't differentiate itself in any way at all, so of course it was doomed to fail. Why abandon your WoW characters for the exact same game?

>>385064268
>People want a WoW-clone but hard

Play any obscure MMO with a modicum of difficulty and you'll find that the vast majority of the playerbase outright will not engage with the hardest content while oversimplifying the encounter to justify why "they could totally do it but it takes too much autism" or my favorite "nah, I'll just wait for the next expansion that will give better gear instead of doing this hard content"

>>385064268
>the point is you CAN'T go at range because all your fucking spells need to be targeted on the floor an therefore standing at range is a huge disadvantage or impossible to aim properly

sounds like the only they have to do to fix that is just add in a target system.

action based MMOs should have plenty of depth given you have to dodge and attack rather than relying on gear checks.

>>385063864

I hate what "endgame content" has become. It's fucking simon says. I can get having some mechanics here and there but the game isn't even an RPG anymore with how much shit they throw on. People can bitch and whine about how tank and spank isn't fun or how it's too slow paced otherwise, but here's the thing: those people just don't realize they don't like RPGs.

>>385053879

>People do it to get to "the good part" but the truth is that there is literally no good part, it's all just making a number bigger then before, so you can kill super monster #324231 so you can get items that make your numbers bigger then before, etcetcetc
That's why I quit FFXIV a month after the beginning of 3.0. I started playing at 2.4 and finished Final Coil because of the story, but I just didn't give a shit about the raid in 3.0's story.

At least the "the game gets good at endgame" MMO design paradigm makes RMT/RWTing insanely profitable. Immediately after selling all my gil and quitting FFXIV I began botting another MMO, which has made me a significant amount of money.

>Name ONE other game genre where you can pay to not play.

certain games like LoL, Overwatch with ranking systems especially if you count RWT/RMT

>>385033447
People started to understand P2W and quitted

Turns out having P2W functions makes alot more money in the long run
This is especially true for smaller playerbases

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I'm having fun with SWL. It's not anything groundbreaking in terms of mechanics, but pretty much everything else makes up for it.

>>385055332
No u

>>385040670
>Noone cares
>It was the most highly populated MMORPG in it's day til WoW came and shitted everything up.
Fuck off.

>>385037938
Threads on /v/ are always filled with nerds that do heroic raids and think they're the best because it's not normal/LFR.

>>385045793
>carebear
That word doesn't mean what you think it means.

>>385033447
>Monthly Subscriptions
>Grindfests
>Pay to Win
Thank god this genre is dying

>>385064679
I don't mean as in the difficulty of the fights is any harder, I just mean like..

You can't just log in, max out in a day, get free welfare RNG loot better than the highest level raiders simply for killing an AFK world quest.

Like, that's just fucking dumb and way too easy and takes out so much of the reward.

i fucking hate youtube clickbait thumbnails

>>385040171
>The draw of the game was leveling to 60 in a new world.

How old are you, 12? 1-60 levelling is a modern mmorpg invention that became commercially successful with WoW. Games like UO, SWG, etc didn't have 1-60 levelling, instead, you levelled skills through usage which then ultimatively defined your character.

>>385064397
webm source?

>>385067290
Dirty Pair Flash Ep4

>>385063305
>It's a grind all the way through and you can't even play the game until you hit 100k at MINIMUM
You can get to 100k xp in half a day my man. Also it has plenty of content, unless you're one of these sensitive autists who stay in their apartment all day to grind jobs.

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>>385043131
Come play Albion Online with us, it's filled to the brim with players and is like the old traditional mmorpgs.

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>>385033447
Pic related is actually keeping my attention.

>>385067478
That is not possible and you know it. Even some of the best players after the reset couldn't do that. 50-60k at MOST. This is pretty moot in the first place because the only way you can do this is if you know how to speedrun all the quests and journals and get help from your corp which a newbie isn't going to be able to do in any capacity. Also, there is no content. Once you reach reach end game, all you do is farm gulfs and nulls for PvE. There is literally nothing else. For PvP, it's just dicking around and spamming your stuns until they land. People have so much text stored up that PvP has no purpose. You're delusional if you think this game is good or has any significant content.

>>385067652
I loved ESO until they killed it with last years patch.

>tutorial zone
>wolf takes 5 hits to kill
>about to beat the storyline
>dremora takes 5 hits to kill

If you upgrade your armor and weapon at every occasion you can, then every enemy always takes the same amount of damage to kill, no matter how many levels you have. If you don't upgrade your gear, then your character starts dealing way less damage.

Why the fuck did they make the player get weaker with the more levels they have?

>>385067606
yeah getting zerged by autistic guilds is real fun

People that used to play them in the golden era grown up and moved on with their life and the new playerbase is a bunch of crying babies that want everything easily so the games became casualised as fuck.

>>385067962
>That is not possible and you know it.
You get all the journals around and in FC, which is already 30k xp within less than a hour, then you move to lusk and grind the leech contracts to 70k-100k. Even better would be if you moved to Stormfront Island at 30k and just grind on dinos till 100k pretty easily.

t. gank alt

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Stormblood is seriously abysmal. I'm thoroughly disappointed. It's so bad that it literally sapped all my enjoyment and gave me an existential crisis in regards to the genre. Themeparks like XIV and WoW are so fundamentally broken. They're like fucking hamster wheels, bad hamster wheels, and they're only fun so long as you choose to ignore the fact that they're hamster wheels.

I couldn't believe that the ENTIRE endgame of Stormblood was literally 4 fights presented individually in tiny arenas. No sense of space or exploration, no trash, no mini-bosses, they've dropped all pretense of even being a "raid." They might as well just be trials. I couldn't bear the thought of "progression" on these fights, let alone another 12, and to what end? Loot to get more loot by killing more bosses later? Stormblood is the themepark at its worst.

The only 2 hopes I have right now are Crowfall and Ashes of Creation.

>>385068385
>still playing XIV after they had killed it with +2.3

You deserve it desu

>>385050801
anon pls, you've already hurt his poor weeb game with shit gameplay, you don't have to hurt him any further :(

Name a single bad korean mmorpg ever.

Protip you can't

>>385064264
I actually agree with this. When I first saw .Hack//Sign like...almost 15 years I KNEW that concept was going to one day take off and I can't wait till it does.

>>385068792
Silkroad with their mobs giving 0.02% xp on your level.

Daily/weekly rewards killed it for me.
Just let me fucking play.

MMO is just a dead genre. The gameplay was never the most attractive feature of the game, so of course everything that came after Everquest/WoW/Ragnarok would seem generic and grindy. These games were grindy, btw, but the social aspect and the sheer exploration-factor were enough to make people regard them highly

>>385066294
sorry did he insult your toddler show barneyfag?

>>385068385
>Crowfall
I still don't get this game. It looks more like a open-world/survival/etc with minor RPG elements than a MMORPG.

Lesser known games like Pristontale and Rappelz always caught my attention (not just theyre free) but they maintained aesthetics and had wicked cool/nice players. WoW and GuildWars were my next cocktails and they were fun as fuck but were impossible to compete with people dedicating their whole lives to the games. Slow progression and not being able to dedicate 24/7, blood, sweat and tears is what turned me off to some of the more popular ones. Also holy fuck I miss Runescape

>>385033447
Because you forgot SWG

I miss indepth elemental systems and buffs/debuffs. Having to actually arm yourself with knowledge before you go out and do shit as oppossed to making everything exactly the same but with a different color of paint. That the social aspect of most MMOs is just gone. I am usually genuinely shocked when I see someone talk in open world.

>>385068912
that is literally never going to be a thing

>>385068912
>>385064264
this. there's already some open world VR sandboxes like Opensimulator which I think are so insanely cool to fuck around with. Imagine a full-fledged MMO in VR...honestly...playing in the .Hack universe would be fucking nuts.

>>385069387
reasoning?

>>385069145
It's a traditional MMO, but it's almost entirely PvP focused. The Battle Royal type stuff you're talking about is just something simple they made to test their systems before implementing their full, complex war campaign type gamemode.

>>385069387
you literally have no clue what the fuck you're talking about.

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>>385033447
I know this is an old thread. But 10/10 masterpieces, really guy? Games full of bugs, lag, connections issues, broken mechanics, unexplained mechanics, and years long grinds? How old are you? Serious question OP. Did you play any of these games when they came out? Do you have a productive life now?

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>>385068912

>>385069482
people will always find the most convenient control scheme and it will always be the superior option, same reason why everyone uses game wikis instead of figuring shit out themselves these days

it will be like watching someone with a controller trying to beat someone with kbm in quake

>>385069785
wahhh waaaaah

>>385069872
I would sacrifice "good" gameplay of using a keyboard/mouse or controller in an MMO just to use VR and immerse myself in such a cool world. my humble opinion at least. I'm not a competitive MMO player, I enjoy the game for its story and aesthetics

>>385033447
>What the fuck happened to the MMO genre?

Datamining, themeparks, and the idea that the entire experience is based around end game raiding.

>>385069836
dumb question but which manga? .hack?

>>385069795
>10/10 masterpieces
Fuck it, I'm glad they're dead. I wish I can reclaim those hundreds of hours lost on WoW and use it to start a side business or something. The only MMO that I got something out of was Ragnarok Online before they implemented WoE - I made some long lasting real life friends. Afterwards it was flooded with bots and retards.

>>385070062
>the idea that the entire experience is based around end game raiding

Do people who are new to an MMO actually think this, though? I was aware that raiding was a thing when I started playing WoW in late 2005, but I was just as happy to go explore the different areas and quest, and try to find a group to do dungeons with. I don't think that exploration factor would evaporate for new players, even if the game has aged.

>>385033447
You are at least 10 years too late

>>385069371
Trinityfags will never understand the joy of using your own creativity to come up with strategies for dealing with the mobs you're up against based on the specific composition of players you've assembled.

>>385069836
>mangafox
kiiiiiiiiiill
your
self

>>385070196
One of them

>>385070402
Got em

>>385070327
I've had thoughts like that man (the whole wasting hours) but eh I've gotten over that, you're never to old to start a business! We all did shit we loved at some point in our lives, no regrets here. And I LOVE the fact that some of my best online friends (some to this day over a decade later) are people I've met in MMO's or Counter Strike. What a time to be alive ya know?? just my reasoning at least

>>385035314
>It's true

The average moron is the true cause of all evil.

>>385070329
>I was aware that raiding was a thing when I started playing WoW in late 2005, but I was just as happy to go explore the different areas and quest, and try to find a group to do dungeons

Vanilla was a different beast. The game was still new, and the huge databases and wikis weren't ubiquitous yet. The world was still relatively new to people, even the veterans at level cap, and exploration and travel were still necessary.


>I don't think that exploration factor would evaporate for new players, even if the game has aged.

That's just it. There aren't as many new players. Most new characters that get made are just alts. The people at level cap can just sit in do dungeon finder from their instanced garrison (or from big cities like Dalaran when I quit), and the newbies rush to get to the level cap as quickly as possible so that they can raid.

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>>385033447
I think two things happened. The first is that we have a ton of choice now, I remember back in Vanilla WoW days there were only so many good games, so Vanilla was just awesome. These days, we have a ton of options, so being committed to one game is much harder, so what was once a benefit because it filled in the gap of all the bad games, is now a bad thing because it takes up too much time.

The second thing is that MMOs haven't evolved. They tried, and sadly the evolved into bad free to play games, as opposed to innovating new things. Even playing on private servers, a lot of the old stuff is fun in some ways, but fails to hold up with how much info we have now in strats and min-maxing. At some point, something was lost, and the makers attempted to replace it by making things more model which was a compromise that pleased no one. I don't know how I'd fix it, I don't know if there is a fix, but I hope they find it one day.

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It may be a grindy vertical treadmill but the core gameplay is enjoyable enough for me to not care, at least for some time.

Raiding evolved and got better (and worse in a way), and more and more instanced content brought people out of the game world. It made things easier, safer, more methodical, and more gamey. Only the highest tier of raids provide challenges now by appealing to the 1% of players by enacting silly choreographed dances that result in wipes if one person does one thing wrong. It became a job instead of an adventure.

>>385071135
when did they make an attack on titan mmo

Anyone else sitting in this thread, thinking about how they do nothing with their life, and wondering when this perpetual feeling of nervousness will go away?

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>>385071526
few years ago

Here's some wall scouts going ham

>>385071558
I am 29 and just recently started getting my shit together.