Is it good game design if you absolutely CANNOT beat the game

Yea

that tyrant can be knifed with relative ease

Sacred 2

You can built whatever the fuck you want but without the right built you go as far as the last boss...i loved it!

>>384992190
That fucker ended so many CV runs for me back on the Dreamcast, and made me realize how short the game was.

I really should replay it sometime and see if I improved at RE games over the years.

Tons of Final Fantasy games send you into sudden 1v1 bossfights with characters you possibly never leveled before cause you hated them and now you can't level them anymore.

>>384993967
They're always level scaled aside from the one in FFT which is your MC so he should be leveled

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Do not fucking remind me. Literally no one on planet Earth defeated last boss in the game called immortal on their first walkthrough.

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>>384992190
Yes.

Depends on the type of fuck up

>>384992834
Is that true? What build do you need to beat the boss? Asking for a friend.

>>384995594
Used Magnum liberally

I can accept it in roguelike with many RNG elements, where the games are shorts and death is expected. It's possible you can't face the final boss/level, it's possible you could have avoided it if you played better (or got more lucky) in earlier parts of the game. That much is fine, as long as it doesn't happen too often.

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>best knife in tank control history
>still manage to not have enough ammo for this guy

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>>384992190
Yes.

You can kill everything in the game before this point easy and STILL have enough ammo to kill him.

There's no excuses and peoples who hate Code Vero just for this a shameless casuals

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>watch a speedrun of CVX
>you can kill the Tyrant on the plane by shooting him 14 times with the Bow Gun as soon as the fight starts without even having him on screen and then hitting the switch

>>384996031
Well yeah, why wouldn't you use the obvious strongest, most OP weapon on a boss?

>>384996171
because I was afraid of the monsters roaming areas earlier and killed every last one of them?

>>384996584
You didn't need to use the explosive bow for that.

Yes but only if you get a warning when starting a new game.

>>384996713
well the point is even so, why should the fucking plane Tyrant be impossible?

If you come across the final bosses of Silent Hill 1 or 2 with no ammunition or run out during a fight, they will gradually kill themselves. THAT's good game design

>>384996785
>if i avoid being hit for 5 minutes i win
>GOOD GAME DEISGN
really?

>>384996171
>Bow Gun
>strongest, most OP weapon

I was talking about regular bolts, not explosive bolts

>>384996785
.. no, no it's fucking not. If you fucked up, you're gonna be punished for it. That's basic videogame design.
Is this bait

>>384992190
Depends on what you mean.
>Make a decision early in the game
>This sends you into the non-canon route
Is okay.
>Make a decision early in the game
>The game stays the same but you don't get the extended/canon ending
Is not okay.

If you're referring to skill choice and selection then it's not okay if the game doesn't let you grind or otherwise correct your flaws. Fuck you VMTB.

>>384996863
Really? I have an hard time believing that. 14 regular bolts weren't even enough for the big yellow dhalsim monsters

>>384996887
Yes but the game should have clear cause and effect.

If you touch an enemy in Mario, you die and restart right then and there. The game doesn't wait until you're at Bowser to force you to redo the entire game from scratch.

>>384996584
Enemies constantly respawn, you can't kill them all...you didn't even play CVX.

>>384992190
If we're talking like old school point and clicks, where missing one thing forced you to get to near the end only to find you fucked up and the game didn't tell you, then no.
If it's more like the final boss requires a specific weapon but that weapon can be used beforehand, as long as it's not redo the entire game, just go to the previous save, then yes.
Imagine something like Dark Souls. Let's say that to defeat Gwyn you needed a specific item. Now lets say that the initial item you choose when you start the game, in those choices was the item required to finish the game, nowhere else could you get it. Of course that's be horrific design.

>>384995605
You need extreme high class damage skills to make a dent in that boss or it's like fighting DD's Ur-Dragon with a level 1 warrior. I don't know if that ever got fixed but it but a smile on my face when i was destroying everything without much trouble just to stand in front of the big boss like a pleb.

I seem to remember playing a house of the dead game where in order to beat the final boss without credit feeding you had to get through the whole game without taking a hit or something like that.
Thought it was pretty cool.

>>384997094

Perhaps you shouldn't try to apply Mario's rules to every game

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>>384992190
Of course it is.
Why do you ask?

I think the biggest difference is whether you're punishing the player for something the game didn't tell you about or for something the player didn't learn.
For the former, Sierra games. Didn't pick up one thing, game continues like normal, get fucked in the end and you're not even sure why.
Something like RE teaches you that ammo conservation is necessary so if they reach the end without ammo, the player should then think back to all the moments they could've conserved it.

>>384996031
I actually did this when i was younger it was in the prima guidebook

>>384997802
this

>>384992190
No, I consider this the biggest flaw of Valdis Story. on higher difficulties the final boss can be unbeatable if you have mediocre armor, stats, and messed with your skill trees in a negative way. You can easily be left with un-upgradable armor if you allow any of the three cities to be evacuated because you didn't meet the vague criteria needed to save them

>>384997802
>Something like RE teaches you that ammo conservation is necessary so if they reach the end without ammo, the player should then think back to all the moments they could've conserved it.

I've never played CV, but even REmake on hard gives you more than enough ammo to kill the final boss. If you're playing a survival horror game and you don't have enough ammo to progress, then you have failed on one of the very basic elements of a survival horror game.

It's like expecting the start of RE2 to give you enough ammo to clear the streets of zombies.

>>384998832
>implying re2 doesnt give enough ammo to kill all the zombies on the street
you find like 120 bullets on your way to the rpd the only way you wouldnt have enough is if you were going for the costumes

>>384998832
Exactly. REmake does give you sufficient ammo but imagining the worst player, missing every shot, using magnum whenever he can, you can reach the final boss with nothing or barely any ammo, but that's on the player's fault, not the game, in which case it's not bad design because the player's at fault. He's the one who didn't learn a necessary mechanic the game had.
The Sierra example is the opposite. It would often not tell you what you did wrong, just that you didn't follow the peyote induced logic the game has, in which case it's the game's fault, so bad design.

>>384992190
So you fuck a player over once and you expect them to jump back in?
Are you counting on an autistic need to complete things as part of your business model?

That may not be the wisest course of action anon.
No it is the very definition of bad design.

>>384999185
I guess the question would be that is it still possible to survive without bullets but with increased difficulty, or does the game just make it completely hopeless

Then again
>you can reach the final boss with nothing or barely any ammo
That is bad game design, the game should throughout the game make clear that you must conserve ammo before the last boss

>>384997693
I see, I see what you mean. I shouldn't is what you're saying.
Therefore I should double down on my comparisons! Of course!

>>384992190
This is why you shoot a man before throwing him off a plane.

I found this game very lacking and uninteresting compared to previous RE classics for some reason. Dropped it once I went back to Antartida as Chriss.

Also, fuck those yellow shits that sit offcamera and slap you as soon as you enter a room.

>>384999443
> the game make clear that you must conserve ammo before the last boss
It does, at least in REmake. I was just using an extreme example of worst of the worst type of player.
Also there's knife runs and achievements for it in REmake and RE0 so I'm guessing it's entirely possible, just much harder.

>>384992190
Literally all you need is the gas rounds, then you can just piss on him and he'll die.

>>384994259
FF 6-7-9-10 are not level scaled. only 8 is, and I didn't play the others.

>>384999864
Kimahri's fight in 10 is scaled to his stats.

>>384999864
6 didn't have a forced 1v1 fight
7 shares experience with inactive members so barret is always close to Dyne's level
I don't remember the forced 1v1 fight in 9 but I'm pretty sure it's piss easy
The Kimahri fight in 10 is level scaled, even if you never touch him at all you can win it by just spamming attack and lancet.

>>384992190
But Code Veronica is the easiest RE. How can you fuck up so bad?

>>384997697
Oh hey, that cat caught a mouse as soon as I entered this screen. What a quaint little animation. I'm sure that has nothing to do with game progression, Graham.

>>384992190
You can beat it, you just need patience. Fuck man, you can kill the Tyrant with the knife, and I'm pretty sure launching enough cargo at him will eventually kill him, even if you didn't damage him all that much. It's been a long time since I played, but like any Resident Evil game, you should already know to save your powerful ammo for bosses and to run around/knife standard enemies.

Was it Code Veronica that switched characters halfway through and fucked you over completely if you didn't spread resources evenly?

I remember RE:Zero doing that on the first mansion boss encounter

>>384999443
>get 15 bullets
>wasted it
>need to avoid enemies till you get ammo
sure the game doesn't make it clear you need to conserve ammo at all

>>384992190
>Is it good game design if you absolutely CANNOT beat the game if you fucked up early on and have to restart the whole game?
Yes. ABSOLUTELY.

Any modern game with leveling up and stat building needs a fucking respec option

>>385000596
Well apparently you can still survive without bullets by avoiding enemies, which is ok.
But making it so that conserving ammo is just because of the final boss is just bad design. Like said before, I liked the SH2 system in which some of the harder bosses lose health passively so you can beat them if you survive long enough

>>385000989
so basically you are complaining that you wasted every bullet , and didn't picked a single item for the rest of the game?
>apparently you can still survive without bullets
and apparently you can finish the game using only the knife!

>>385001136
Whoa whoa calm down I played the game normally.
I was only talking about if a game possibly can lock you into a unwinnable state at the very end.

>>385001324
>unwinnable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjHQuMqoM0o
keep trolling

>>384998938
Well, you don't have enough to kill them in the opening section before getting any ammo pick ups. I remember trying to as a kid and being unable to even get past that opening section.

>>384999443
>That is bad game design, the game should throughout the game make clear that you must conserve ammo before the last boss

The core mechanic of survival horror is making sure you have enough resources to survive. Kind of the same with older FPS games too, if you use the BFG in Doom and then get stuck on a hard room full of enemies that you can't clear then you're a moron.

>>385000989
>I liked the SH2 system in which some of the harder bosses lose health passively so you can beat them if you survive long enough

Did anyone actually run out of bullets while playing SH2? The game goddamn drowns you in supplies.

>>385001481
Chill dude, I was just following OP
Also nice reading comprehension, maybe check what "if" and "possibly" mean

>>385001502
>if you use the BFG in Doom and then get stuck on a hard room full of enemies that you can't clear then you're a moron
Isn't that quite bad comparison cause you can just restart a level, not the whole damn game. But I understand your point. Guess my main problem is that why make it so that you have to manage your resources for the final boss? I'd say that the point of a boss is just to wrap up the game, not to be the main point of the survival aspect

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>>384992190
>Is it good game design if you absolutely CANNOT beat the game if you fucked up early on and have to restart the whole game?
Any game that requires you to start from the beginning just because you actually PLAYED THE GAME should be thrown right into the garbage. A design such as this is purely counter-intuitive and retarded. Games are supposed to be fun and should encourage experimentation and exploration. Being forced to retread hours of old ground just because you didn't do something as the designers intended (despite giving you the option to do so to begin with), is autism.

no game should make you do boring shit.

starting the game again to repeat exactly what you did before but make one change is boring. especially when you're forced to do so right at a climactic point in the story.

however some games are designed around revisiting old choices with new knowledge. which is good.


there is an argument that RE requires ammo conservation and you should learn from your mistakes. However, if you can make it to the final stages of the game without being forced to learn from your mistakes, i don't think that is the player's fault. it's the developers'.

there should be a way to recover your supplies in that situation. it shouldn't be easy, and you should know you fucked up, but having to start the game again is just arbitrary and if you make the player do it you're like a strict parent who fetishises discipline to the detriment of other values.

>>385001643
>Also nice reading comprehension, maybe check what "if" and "possibly" mean
dont use IF with a pic of a game that the only way you can end in a unwinnable state its , being fucking mentally challenged

>>384999725
Gas rounds are lottery, 90% of time I get the fucking memo instead of them. Explosive bolts are always reliable.

Literally the worst thing in CV are the yellow fucktards that grab you for instant kill skullcrush the moment you enter the room. Pure aids and 10 times worse than hunters.

>>385002263
Nigger, you don't have to start the game over again if you made it to the final act of the game and ran out of ammo in RE. You just use the knife/pick up the ammo they give you before the last stretch. There isn't an ammo pool that is given to you at the beginning of the game that you never replenish, they dole it out over the entire game and it's up to you to properly conserve the big guns for tough fights.

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>>384992190
I'm going to say there shouldn't be a problem granted that you have a reasonable spot to start over from (like the beginning of level). But if they fuck your entire game for exploring other options or trying different actions and you can't tell the fuck up until nearly the end? Then yeah, that's bad.

Mostly because foments this stupid mentality a lot of people have (sadly, myself included) that when you have this incredibly cool item you just can't use it because you know you'll need it at the direst moment of your run. But then you reach 100% completion and still never used the item.

>>385002593

that's fine, i played code veronica but don't remember having problems with it. speaking more hypothetically.

>>385001847
>Guess my main problem is that why make it so that you have to manage your resources for the final boss? I'd say that the point of a boss is just to wrap up the game, not to be the main point of the survival aspect

You really don't need that many resources, and in most cases you have to be fucking up extremely hard to not have enough for the final boss. Again, survival horror is all about resource management, and failing that typically means beating the game is harder. Hell, it's never impossible, just super hard.

>>385001481
Wtf how do you escape from jimmy when he chases you? That part is so fucking stupid he kills you from 100% in 2 unavoidable hits.

>>384992190
No, Homeworld is trash.

>all these people complaining about ammo in the res evil game known for having the most amount of ammo

feels good to not be retarded

>>385003806
yeah it is dumb. You pretty much cant escape without getting hit at least once. I believe you can actually do it but it requires you to run the perfect line and as fast as humanly possible

I watched the speedrun of this the other week and he still got hit once

>>385001481
>>385001136
>>385002292

you are autistic

>>384992190
Even if it was impossible to do this in CV, the game still wouldn't be particularly good.

The only shit design in the game was the steve chase

If you don't have atleast one heal item you can't get past it