What is your attitude towards casuals telling you games shouldn't

>>384985546
A videogame is fun because it's challenging.

hard games for normal people
casual games for casuals
the problem is that mainstream AAA gaming industry wants games to be at best for "everyone" and at worst for casuals only

>>384985672
This, I don't get a game just to barely do anything, like even if you practice a sport for fun you don't just walk there, you run and do your best to score goals. You don't get a musical instrument just to play a couple strings and say "that was fun", fuck no, you learn it at least to a certain point and execute what is for you something challenging yet rewarding. Same with videogames, with everything you do in life. That's why conformists are scum, they sink in a mentality and state of slowing down until they accomplish nothing. I'm not saying you should go out there and find a new dinosaur fossil or solve an impossible equation, but get up and play that videogame in your backlog anon ! Go get some money for that figurine ! Make an effort to solve the puzzle or the level without asking for help or a guide ! If I can do it, you can do it too !

I tell them that difficulty is fun and easy games are boring. I don't want to dictate how hard games NEED to be, there's room for all sorts of games. As long as hard games exist and retards don't ask devs to dumb down difficulty just because they're impatient babies, it's fine. Difficulty modes are great too when devs put effort into them.

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It really doesn't matter. You can enjoy easy games and hard games the same, there's a myriad other aspects that affect how fun a game is. In fact Id go as far as to say that difficulty is probably one of the least important aspects in how fun a game is. What really matters are the mechanics, if they are fundamentally fun then the game will most likely be fun and enjoyable.

Of course you could still have a mechanically flawed game that's fun because of story, atmosphere, etc. But if a game has absolutely terrible mechanics to the point of being broken then there's nothing that can make it enjoyable as a game, for example Drakengard games which are infinitely more enjoyable as movies than as a game.

The reason why Dark Souls is so fun is not because it is difficult, it is because the mechanics are enjoyable and the difficulty arises from mastering said mechanics. But on the other hand you have BOTW which is also a very fun game because of its mechanics, but here the fun arises from using it's easy to master mechanics by coming up with creative ways to accomplish your goals.

There's also a gray area where games like Darkest Dungeon reside, they are mechanically sound but they have a inherent random factor which makes the game difficult even if you master the mechanics. Here the fun arises from using your mastery of the mechanics and hoping time and time again that the rng will ultimately favor you. It has more in common with say gambling than chess.

>>384985546
Some genres are meant to have difficult games. some aren't. It's that simple.

If it's fun I'm fine, I'm not some try hard

>>384986031
But that's a pretty poor comparison. Most people start with hard alcohol, and transition to beer as they get older.

>>384985546
Some games are fun because they're hard, other games just can't handle difficulty too well and harder setting just means more annoying. I think it all boils down to what the "fun" part of the game is. For example I loved Diablo 3 and had a ton of fun with it, but the game is super casual especially when compared to D2. It was fun to play dress game in D3/
But every single FPS I play on maximum difficulty because there is only one thing in such games - shooting things. And shooting slow harmless ducks is not fun.
Souls games are fun because of their approach to difficulty. If you are bad, the game is hard for you because it actually punishes you for mistakes, but it also forces you to get better and stop making mistakes. The cycle of dying, learning and then progressing feels rewarding, and thus the difficulty of the game is fun.

>>384986336
Difficulty is extremely important, the only reason you say this is because it's so mixed with every aspect of a game that you don't even notice it. Dark Souls combat is fun specifically because of its difficulty (easy patterns, simple execution, high punishment for failure). Its mechanics wouldn't be enjoyable if you removed elements that make it more difficult, for instance you getting staggered by enemy attacks which makes the combat strategic or enemies doing a lot of damage which means you can't mash buttons, or the limited items which make mistakes have meaning.

>>384985546
They already have that whole 10/10 best game ever Uncharted movie game genre to them. Fuck off and let me git gud at games I like.

>>384985546
I like games to be challenging but not to the point where you need to play perfectly and get lucky at the same time to beat it. DMC1 DMD mode is a good example of what I'd consider challenging but still fun, up until the final boss. The first part of that fight just takes so long because of his extra HP, and you have to hope for a more docile second phase to win if you aren't using items. But before that enemies are a bit more damaging with more HP, but also more aggressive, and there are less weak enemies to fill out the levels.

I can understand why people don't like challenging games, but then it's more of like an interactive movie in my opinion and that's not what I'm looking for. As long as they don't try to stop me from playing what I like then they can enjoy their games too.

>>384986664
>>384986535
I think your two points go to show people will just have differing opinions on what kind of challenge is fun.
Personally, I loved challenging games when I was younger and while I can still enjoy them I prefer more casual things I don't have to put as much time into learning now. I'm NEET as fuck so it's not really a time issue but maybe I feel like I already proved to myself that I'm skillful and now I'm just playing with my comfort in mind.

>>384986628
>But every single FPS I play on maximum difficulty because there is only one thing in such games - shooting things. And shooting slow harmless ducks is not fun.
It's not fun when the only difference between difficulties is the enemies have more HP and do more damage either though. Harder difficulties should make the enemies smarter, more aggressive, etc.

My opinion as a consumer: games must cater to ME, and be hard enough for my liking.
As a would-be developer: games must please everyone. Fun mechanics and completion possibility for casuals and exclusive rewards for hardcore players.

>>384986930
Similar for me. I like playing single player games on harder difficulties sometimes, but even after beating that if I ever play the game again I'll usually just play on normal. I like to play multiplayer games for more challenge because it's more fun playing against actual people for that compared to an AI that will always do the same things.

>>384986896
Nothing wrong with games that demand perfection from the player. What's considered perfection is usually basic shit like not getting hit, not literal perfection like getting a perfect rank in a rhythm game.

>>384987168
Yeah I didn't say demanding perfection alone is bad, but demanding perfection AND having to get lucky due to RNG or something similar to actually beat it.

>>384986336
Think of it this way, pac-man is very easy to get the hang of but what makes it difficult is learning how to avoid the ghost while eating as many pellets as possible.

>>384986402
It's an interesting note. Sandbox games are in fact casual attractions meant for your brain to get out there and do it's damnedest with the mechanics presented, but they are more stimulating than anything else. Meanwhile, there are genres that have been warped into walks in the park just so billy doesn't wear out his controller with sweat. Wasn't the adventure genre about exploring worlds, perilous or not, and figuring shit out on your own?

>>384987014
Should, but usually they don't. Some games have more enemies in higher difficulties and that's also a good thing. Still I can't really think of a fps where enemies have absurdly high amounts of HP. Pure fps that is, because some shooters with rpg elements are the biggest offenders of this shit

>>384985546
Not everything is for everyone. Enjoyment comes in many different varieties and anybody is free to seek it how they wish to. Some people like challenging games and some people like easier games, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, a person is in the wrong when they try to say one way of getting enjoyment is wrong and only the other way is better. In the same way that I wouldn't tell people that they have to play on the hardest difficulty to have fun, I wouldn't want someone to tell me the game is only fun if you play on the easiest difficulty. I don't want people to apply their standards and criteria of fun to me.
As for the line itself, a game is allowed to be as easy or hard as it wants to as long as the tools given to the player are fair or equal out to the level of difficulty.

>>384985546
Straight up?
If it's a souls game I say that the difficulty is part of the experience, that' you're meant to feel like a person against actual monsters.
If they nag that they just want to enjoy the world I tell them that they should watch the game on youtube, then, since they don't seem interested in the game, just the pretty pictures.

For other stuff I say kinda the same, that if a game is hard by design that that's part of what makes it that game. If there is no difficulty option there's a reason.

If they want to play the game in the easiest difficulty, every time, they'll get bored, and provably come here to bitch and moan about why the game sucks, when they just went for the tour guide and not the game.

I like how a lot of singleplayer games have difficulty settings so you can choose how difficult you want the game to be. The only thing that really grinds my gears in when multiplayer games let people with maxed out equioment to against anyone, even somone using starter equipment. It feels like being put in a truck with a machine gun on it against a modern tank. No matter how good you are, the tank is going to win.

I've encountered people who ask me where I find the value in playing difficult games instead of learning an actual sport, which indeed I do but you know how everyone likes to dismiss stuff in favor of their argument. So I ask them where do they find the value in conforming to such low expectations instead of raisig the bar for themsleves.

>>384986087
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxGRhd_iWuE

It all depends on the type of the game you're playing. Usually gameplay doesnt really influence the fun factor unless you're one of those "fun is challenge" people. But there are also games that should be played on specific settings, like metros ranger hardcore for you to actually be invested in the game

>>384990583
I've seen this dumb video like 6 times randomly throughout my shitposting and it's so stupid but it manages to be more motivating and uplifting than 90% of my interactions with other human beings. idk what it is about him. He's just so genuine.

>>384985546
Singleplayer:
Who gives a fuck
Multiplayer:
Don't be a burden to your team.

I think there should be a choice, there's no way I can enjoy easy as fuck games

>>384985546
fun is completely subjective.
some people think hard games are fun.
some people don't.
also some people like other genres of games.
never has there been a time where we had such a margin of games to chose from.
of course, in general there is a lot of casualization going on, but that's because video games today take huge amounts of money to make and everyone who knows how capitalism works, knows that the money coming in from sweaty neet neckbeards won't be enough to cover the production costs.
so it's normal to broaden the audience for financial success.
still, there are a lot of challenging games released today and that won't change.

I usually find easier games less memorable, difficulty settings dont help unless they change mechanics substantially, because you end up with a game that's either too easy despite being the way it's intended to play or too hard as it assumes you've mastered it from a previous playthrough, no amount of "fun" saves a game from this unbalance, you should be challenged as you learn the ins and outs of the game, not just towards the end making everything before it forgettable or at the very beggining, which get's tiring very fast.

Not to dish difficulty settings, ultimately a game should be enjoyable, easy could be challenging to the less experienced audience, but normal/not unlockable difficulties should be a challenge no matter what, with the exceptions of games that pertain to a skill based genre such as scrolling 2d shooters, which don't need to change the formula as much to be enjoyable as the balance in difficulty is tried and true.

Either way, I'm not against casuals, but the industry should stop coddling them, no matter how much they disagree with excuses such as "only 1/2 hours a day to play" and "couldn't play games as a kid because poor parents", it will only give you shallow entertainment at best and you shouldn't be spending hard earned money on it, it's only when you learn to enjoy things that the enjoyment you get from them stops being hollow and you get actual gratification from them.

>>384985546
>talking to casuals

>>384985546
bune come from egg

>>384985546
I stop talking to them

>>384985546
>Everyone has their own opinion, so your opinion isn't the end all be all of what a game should be. The being said,

or without being a dick
>Everyone has their own tastes, some people like a challenge and others don't.

For me personally, I have different uses for different kinds of games.