How will CD Projekt fuck it up? https://www.youtube.com/watc

>>384561116
By not delivering on the promise of including un-translated dialogues in various languages you'd have to learn yourself to understand what anything means.

>>384561116
Witcher vison
I mean CYBERNETIC IMPLANT GO HERE VISION

>>384561116
By being unable to create a decent combat system to save their lives.

COME TOUCH ME LIKE I'M AN ORDINARY MAN

>>384561116
Can't wait for the new 2077 trailer where they play wubstep. Projekt will be bound to fulfilling whatever their sponsors want.

2077 is the release date

>>384561116
by never releasing it

not enough personal responsibility

Just like Witcher 3. Watering it down with open world bullshit.

>>384561613
Still better than the synthwave meme

>>384561716
Darkwave and horrorwave are unironically good mood music.

>>384561116
I hope there is a cuck mission. Seriously.

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>>384561716
This. Holy FUCK I don't fucking want to hear that shit in 2077.

>>384561116
Have those hackers ever released anything? Did they even get caught?

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>use your Cyber Senses to find clues
>checklist open world
>MMO level scaling
>more glitches than Bethesda game
>rushed and unfinished
Just like Witcher 3, basically. Hopefully DLCs will be just as good, at least.

Well, CD Projekt has been mainly working on the Witcher series for years now which has allowed them to utilize the same universe and characters throughout. They've shown they can write decent stories and characters as well as build upon mechanics that make sense for Geralt, but doing that for their own created world and characters is questionable. I'm guessing you'll be able to create your own character and will explore an at least semi-open world. All of which is something that, while inspired by other media, is of their own creation. Without a book or previously made up universe to then build off of, I don't know how they'll fare. Especially when the societal/political/economical themes behind a cyberpunk-focused world can be hard to nail in a believable fashion and not fall into the simplistic idea of it as, "Everything is grungy and neon with lots of crime!"

TL;DR They're making their own new world, characters, and in a way that likely gives the player more freedom over how their character acts/behaves. Without a premade character (like Geralt) and world backing it up, they may have a difficult time. Adding in cyberpunk themes also adds to that difficulty. I think they could probably do a good job considering their track record, but this is somewhat new territory for them.

>>384561116
wait, wasn't this cancelled already?

>>384561116
By not letting you make your own story. Its pretty much the main reason why Fallout 4 sucked so much dick.

by making the gameplay shitty and shallow like all their other "games"

>>384561716
>>384561865
>having taste this bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xon4XNj4uFE

>>384561771
what would a cuckmission be like?

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>>384561947
>writes a paragraph >TL;DRs it >the TL;DR is another paragraph
I'm gonna need a TL;DR for your TL;DR my dude

>>384562047
I'm sorry that condensing my thoughts into a smaller summary that's less all over the place triggers your autism. My bad.

>>384562034
You'd have to pick out your own bull. Problem is they won't agree indulging in your masochistic pleasure just by merely asking. So you would have to black mail them to BLACK your wife. Hack their emails, halt their bank account, or even extort them through a security racket scheme. Maybe even hack their loved one's life support machine to extort them. Be pretty hot 2bh.

>>384562172
Your TL;DR is TL so I DR.

>>384562172
you sound salty

>>384562249
t. doesnt understand the point of a tldr

>>384562303
t. cant reply to the right post lmao

>>384561116
By focusing all their efforts on a boring card game.

They could easily screw up with the gameplay. The Witcher series has generally just been a hack and slash action game with light RPG elements. A cyberpunk-themed game would likely have things like melee weapons, guns, technological weapons like beam weapons (depending on what kind of world their building), and even powers associated with technology built into the character like augmentations. Making sure the game feels at least decent to play if your able to switch from melee combat to shooting could be tricky for them since they haven't done much in that aspect. Especially when you have to decide how shooting would work, if you're going to be in first person or third person, shit like that.

Have they even said what perspective the game will be in? First person would help out with the switch from guns to melee or whatever combat abilities the player will have. But who knows what they'll do.

>>384562032
fuck off

Not everyone is 14 years old

>>384561867
i still reckon that was a publicity stunt

>>384562032
literally all sounds the same

Got interested, and bored with the entire genre in the span of 30 minutes.

Where is it? REEEEE

>>384564119
cdpr fucking lied to us
they said we would have news this year and the news never came
fucking cunts

>>384561356
didn't they just talk about having to buy some translator in-game?

>>384564312
This year still has 5 more months. And where exactly did they say so?

>>384564708
Not him, but I'm holding out for there to be SOMETHING at Gamescon. I'll start worrying then.

if it plays and is presented anything like TW3 it's fucked, that game is really garbage.

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>>384564908
>that game is really garbage
lol k

>>384564981

cringe

>>384565221
18+ site

>>384561947
What are you even talking about, Cyberpunk is a P&P game and they are working with the original creator on the video game. It's not a brand new world they're dreaming up.

wait wait wait. Cyberpunk was made by a BLACK?

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>>384561116
I trust in Mike Pondsmith

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>>384561716
Not even close
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK3qEY5URRw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdNHZ42uT0E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nFe6Ix_55M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vy5JQTYbS8

>>384564827
They said many times that 2017 is Gwent's year.

>>384561116

I seriously hope microsoft has nothing to do with it this time.

>>384561116
After the Witcher 3 I sincerely believe that it's not possible for them to fuck up.

Witcher 3 was OBJECTIVELY the greatest game ever made.

>>384566045
Fuck Gwent

>>384566150
W3 was 100% mediocre.

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>>384565990
>chromatics
good shit

>>384565990
all this shit sounds the same
its fucking grating

>>384566224
In your eyes it was. In the general audience it was an absolute masterpiece.

>>384565990
outta here with that knight rider OST shit
cp2077 needs industrial and straight punk rock. nothing else fits.

>>384566176
You and me both. It might be good in the end if it's successful. They'll have steady stream of income with little investment, so they won't have to worry about money.

>>384561116
Why would they?
The only thing they ever fucked up was the Saint's Row 2 port and that was a long time ago.

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>>384566269

>>384566356
Desuyo that's a preferable state to listening to synthwave cancer

hope

>all these minimum wage "social media experts" getting mad over the only good game of the last years and the only good game of the near future

>>384561116
Nice movie trailer

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>>384561116
by lowering the quality of the game for consoles

think the recommended reqs will fall in the current GPU gen? thinking of upgrading pc for this

>>384566308
Not even this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uhTW8m7W1M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC7QR8MPXvE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1UdTvLoUSY

>>384566691
1070 for recommended sounds about right. Still, the prices are fucked up right now and you'd be better waiting for next series.

>>384566851
No, not even that.

>>384567032
Two are from cyberpunk movies, one is heavily inspired by cyberpunk media, but they won't fit in a game called "cyberpunk". Ok

>>384567193
No, it's not Ok.

>>384561116
with bad combat/gameplay ... have you not played witcher 1,2,3?

>>384567193
It's just /v/ faggots being contrarians for the sake of being contrarian.

>>384567273
Name one cyberpunk movie with an industrial or straight punk rock soundtrack

>>384567032
vangelis was in that post fuck you bitch

>>384566851
yeah the first two work
https://youtu.be/sNnJdbFXcsY?t=105
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dbi4N6NGn4

to be honest I can't pick a genre to define what we know so far of the game

>>384561116
by upsetting /v/.

>>384567701
nah fuck you leatherhead

>>384562032
Synthwave is cool, but without lyrics

>>384561116
WHAT NOW YOU PIECE OF DREK

>>384567881
Counterargument
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGUboLZx3Tk

>>384567389
Nirvana
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feOoixPqZv4

>>384568204
yes good more

>>384567735
THIS. it's been known that any game that doesn't get our blessing is doomed to flop. TORtanic was an example of our might.

>>384567881
I like this one and the lyrics fit CP2077 perfectly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bA2Gnac9OY

>>384562239
What is wrong with you? were you dropped as a kid?

>>384568204
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdd8dnzhXX4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjNqnZ2Wm2g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZLey-QByX4

Sounds more D E S I G N A T E D to me

>>384561613

If they do it right they'll use Blade Runner music.

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Who /cop/ here?
Time to deliver THE LAW.

>>384568737

Cop reporting in. Dey say dat yoo brade runner.

>>384568737
>Rockerboys
how does that translate? I just hit people with a Les Paul?

>>384568737
Solo for maximum brouzouf gainening

>>384568354
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SUjDsKXCUQ

>>384568829
>Cyberpunk bards

I'm in

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>think Cyberpunk 2077 is still relevant

The year is 2084.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvK4l-nvWwI

>>384561116
By not letting us play as a lesbian cop who gets all the ladies.

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>>384568737
If you don't HACK, are you even playing fucking cyberpunk? NEUROMANCER LIFESTYLE HERE I COME, ALL ABOARD THE COMPUTER TRAIN

If anything they're going to bite off more than they can chew. Too much ambition leads to unfinished games, like CCP with their attempt at a VTM MMO. They had a lot of great ideas, but they tried to implement all of them from the beginning and ended up with a bunch of great idea but no game.

>>384568829
>how does that translate?
Something like this.
>be Rockerboy
>go to objective
>post on "cyberpunk instagram" your current location.
>summons a bunch of punks and groupies that just cause riots and possibly fights/distracts targets in your stead.
>play music to buff their STR and HP.

This was on the Johnny Mnemonic soundtrack:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6msMrb0m6I

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>>384566308
Seriously this
NU-80's synthwave=/=cyberpunk
Industrial/EBM is THE definitive Cyberpunk music

>all bullets and gunfire are just spells from witcher 3 reskinned
>resting uses up any booze on your character to refill your viruses automatically which you don't even have to meditate to make and prepare
>linear questline like witcher games
>no real classes, just " 2% bonus to butt hacking" and these minor differences are what they'll call your "classes" which affect nothing
>reddity nudge nudge wink wink tremendously obvious witcher reference like a random city npc being ciri

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>>384561116
they won't. witcher 3 is an absolute masterpiece in every sense of the word.

PERSONAL

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>>384568737
Whichever class lets me ride with a neo-biker gang and hit people with iron pipes
So Nomad I guess

>>384561987
This. I will never forgive Bethesda for that. I'm fucking done with them.

>>384569074
how do you make a hacking class doesn't involve terrible hacking minigames like Shadowrun's or deus ex?

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>>384569282
In System Shock they gave you guns, roller skates and a fuckhuge sword. It worked ok.

>>384561495
This

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>>384569282
By making a "good" hacking minigame

>>384568737
fixer sounds so nice

>>384569282
Just do it like Watch Dogs, one click hacking of city systems, but on a larger scale since everything is digitized

>>384568737
Corporate. I won't even have to get my hands dirty. Be in a slick suit and fedora.

>>384569450
That was such a fucking trip the first time I activated it. Good shit.

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can we just have a nice cyberpunk thread without shitposting and such shit...

https://youtu.be/FQXim8oKt9c?t=439

>>384568737
going full 21st century jew

>>384569149
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEJIyNmWc7Y

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It will be the witcher 3 all over again.
>amazing story
>shit gameplay

At least this time there will be different classes, that's a step up for gameplay.

>>384569782
>his son and mother write and work on this too
thats pretty neat.

>>384569782
>inb4 WE

>>384569149
I kinda agree, but nobody says that there can be only one or two genre played in the game, it all depends on the situation/place I guess

>>384561116
by having the character walk and run like an toy figurine hovering very close to the ground

They're going to add in detective mode, witcher vision, whatever the fuck you wanna call it again.

>>384569782
>he likes persona
my man

>>384561116
>Cyberpunk 2077 Teaser Trailer
>2013
Holy shit, I forgot how old this was.

>>384565990
Holy fuck man that interior makes for a great desktop background, thanks anon.

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>>384569521
>fedora
Anon, please, don't embarrass yourself like that infront of the other Vice Presidents. Now, let's see your card.

>>384570068
whats the problem if there is some "forensic vision" in a future setting? Why would there NOT be an effort advance forensic research?

>>384561116
Everyone will expect so much from this game that in the end they will nitpick and disappointing.

>>384561937
>mmo lvel scaling
i'll take that everytime if the onyl other option is to have retarded bethesdas 'scaling world'

>>384568737
Solo burned out on combat drugs

>>384561116
>bad combat
>classes won't matter because protag will be always the same
>few and shit dialogue options
>shit and shallow RPG elements
>no pacifist runs possible

I'm never going to play the Witcher, I dislike generic Western fantasy but this is on my most hyped PS4 games list

Death Stranding
Final Fantasy VII Remake
Dragon Ball FighterZ
Spider-Man
Cyberpunk 2077
Shenmue III
WiLD
Resident Evil 2 Remake
The Last of Us Part II
Sonic Mania
Dragon Quest XI
Red Dead Redemption 2

>>384570625
>no pacifist runs possible
expecting a pacifist run in a cyberpunk setting is like thinking you could have have a pacifist run in a Vampire Masquerade game.

>>384568873
what's your leg status?

Judging from tw3, I hope they'll avoid
>Too much "cyber senses"
A bit here and there is okay if done right, but don't make it necessary for half the quests.
>Traversing the environment
Both the fans and devs are all well aware of the Roach memes, and after saying that they liked BOTW, I hope they'll take notes in terms of making getting around be as smooth as possible. Let us run wild and get lost in the world.
>Builds
The classes should address this most likely, but having some variation for several playthroughs would be nice.
>Item balancing
While it worked fine for the most part in tw3, it did make it pointless to focus on anything besides witcher gear.

All in all, I'm still optimistic though. I think the patches and expansions after tw3's release show that they're definitely learning and taking notes on things they could've done better.

>>384570669
> I dislike generic Western fantasy
Witcher 1 is pure Eastern european folklore mashed in one.
You cant be more wrong please stick to your weaboo shit.

BLACK HOLES LIVING IN THE SIDE OF YOUR FACE
RAZOR WIRE SPINNING AROUND YOU AROUND YOU AROUND YOU

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>>384570669
You missed one

>>384570702
If I can't talk or bribe my way out or around something, it's a shit RPG.

>>384570702
Dumb nigger.
Especially in Cyberpunk it should be possible.
In fantasy you're fighting wolves or golems that can't be reasoned with.

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>>384568737
I still wonder how the fuck this is going to be implemented with the main story. I mean, surely with classes this varied, it can't just be the same character and story unrelated to your class a la Mass Effect. Maybe it'll be something like Dragon Age Origins where you have your own unique prologue and quests here and there depending on your class?
What do you guys think?

>>384561116
lame gameplay like the witcher

>>384561495
Doubt even CDProjekt Red will fuck up third person cover shooting/first person shooting, Witcher 3's combat system was "passable"

>>384570979
your idea is decent, what I'm afriad of is that e'll get some random dialogue checks with the past/background options

>>384570669
thanks for sharing, faggot

>>384561116
>Published on Jan 10, 2013
jesus fucking christ

>>384561116
It will be GOTY, receive 10/10s across the board, everyone will love it.

/v/ will cry and call it shit, like they always do.

>>384571079
I thought about that as well, I just can't picture how that will work without feeling extremely half assed if you can be on total different sides of the law.

Quest GPS
Batman vision
Shit combat, again

All guaranteed

>>384570843
>path where you only utilize a fragment of the game.
sounds like a lame rpg 2bh family

What are the chances the game's actually isometric and has xcom combat akin to actual table top combat

>>384561116
>How will CD Projekt fuck it up?

They won't. /v/pol/ will nonetheless shit its pants because "muh forced diversity" or some shit.

>>384569782
10/10 chill dude, would drink beers with.

>>384571548
Mike confirmed they're using W3's engine with tweaks and shit so who knows?

>>384571548
Pretty sure they stated some time ago that it would definitely be third person.

>>384571548
I think it's supposed to be both third person and first person view.

>>384571704
I mean that would still be "third person"

>Cybervision
>Level scaled loot and content

>>384569865
>amazing story

assuming they do open world and put as much effort into the city as they did novigrad then a cyberpunk game with a good story on top of that is all I need. Its all about that atmosphere

>>384570669
WItcher is nonwestern fantasy you fucking moron. Is is mostly Polish folklore sprinkled with some Scandinavian.

That said you can fuck off with your weeb shit.

>>384572198
poland is the west you retarded subhuman. also polackowski is a plagiarist

this is why i hate the witcher. annoying polish subhumans act like they aren't an irrelevant shithole full of gibsmedat nigger tier chimps

>>384570001
/pol/ here
even I say only idiots shit on based Mike

What are some good proper cyberpunk games i.e no isometric turn based garbage? Already played all of Deus Ex.

Main gameplay is just shooting and all the classes are just shooter with slight variation.
Ciri guest appearance because she is their Lightning
Shit combat.

>>384568737
Nomad is the only answer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWQKiefZ-XI

>>384571458
it's about the possibility of doing it, fucknugget.
a RPG where you CAN do a pacifist run on top of normal runs is quantitatively and qualitatively better already

>>384561947
It is based on Cyberpunk (TM), it is not an original concept.

>>384561116
>those fanboys in the comment section
Legitimately disgusting.

>>384561116
By not letting you fuck the twins. TWINS, BASIL!

>>384573479
Your first and last point are pretty much the same but still right.

>cute corporate girl
>slut rockergirl
>qt tomboy techie
endless possiblities

>>384572436
Poland traditionally straddles the border between west and slavic orthodox east. Additionally it's time under communism has muddled things a bit.

Also
>assuming I'm a slav
Not even close you fucking subhuman chink

>>384561116
As long there is a Ciri focused mission. I'd be cool with it.

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Requesting Drawfriends to draw picrelated into the Judges who bring the LAW

>>384568737
Corporate Master race

https://webm.red/XsWp

>>384561495
Thread should've ended here.

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>>384561441
this right here

>>384561116
>How will CD Projekt fuck it up?
liberal SJW anarchist bullshit.

>>384575168
Unironically this.

>>384569782
What is that Mec-something zero game he is working on?

>>384572198
>Witcher is mostly Polish folklore
Suck a dick you stupid bitch. Don't claim the whole Slavic Folklore as Polish one.

>>384562032
Turboslashes version is better

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>>384561116
By deviating from what cyberpunk is.

>>384565905
Came in here to say this

If you're a casual normalfag that's dabbling in cyberpunk for some "I'm so nerdy" cred this game will be perfect.
Pretty graphics that make for some good screenshots to show to his friends.
Digestible dialogue + story and streamlined RPG elements with a linear perk system and no class restrictions.
Some sex scenes sprinkled here and there et voilà. GOTY is guaranteed.

Someone who wants an actual RPG with mechanical depths will be disappointed.

They ruined it

https://youtu.be/t9ZUY0ZXCdo?t=5m25s

>>384561116
shit combat

>>384568737
cops or solos

>>384561495
each witcher game has better gameplay that the one before, at least they're improving. there's a chance it'll be good.

>>384577463
The fact that the writer of the pnp game it's based on is in close contact with CDPR and has said in multiple interviews that it is true to the source material makes me hopeful that you are wrong.
Maybe that's just him hyping it up though.

>>384568737
Solo, Netrunner or Nomad.

>>384568998
Wasn't it supposed to be a horror game? Looks like a thriller at best.

>>384568998
>>384578501
looks like a playstation VR game

>>384578004
I'd love to be wrong on that.

any good music that was not posted by now?

>>384561495
This. Its likely to be a shooter so it will be pretty fucking easy to do, but to keep the RPG systems intact at the same time will be very hard

>>384562032
Ehhh desu senpai this should've won.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUmTpVvvaaw

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>>384561116
>EVERYTHING in the 80's was violet
DROPPED
I thought those slavs were smarter desu

>>384561651

phew, dodged a bullet

>>384580563
>he doesn't like the "everything is violet" aesthetic
You were dropped.
On your head.

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>>384580728
Name better thing than violet neons
pro tip
>you can't

>>384561495
fpbp

>>384580910
>being new

>>384564981
I thought Steam didn't allow bullshots anymore?

>>384561116
what's the probability of this flopping after the success of Witcher 3?

Pretty high I'd say.

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>>384580563
>>384580728
>>384580829
its actually magenta

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I have never played the original tabletop game. And I don't have any friends to play with but I am really interested in finding out what it's about.
Do you guys know any good youtube playthroughs I can watch instead?

>>384582382
you can watch my when I play it in 60 years

>>384582653
>original tabletop game
Anon...

>>384564981
This kills the /v/ermin argument. Because if there was an overwhelming argument as to why the game is bad (regardless of the fact that /v/ thinks its a bunch of freedom fighters for teaching people what video games are good) it would literally be represented on Steam.

>>384582382
Well you can still wtach people playing it if you really want to know how it plays

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efRE_tqUkhY

Or you could find a Discord server specialized in traditional roleplaying games and see if they play Cyberpunk 2020

>>384575168
>liberal SJW anarchist bullshit.

This is not an American Game Developer

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dont mind me, posting good music outside of your mainstream taste

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fJvBEkOmPY

>>384561947
Lmao dumbass they didn't create the cyberpunk universe, it's already an established pnp game with lore

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>>384568737
So everyone can make an informed choice…

>>384584687
Thank you kind sir for showing to all these degenerate mainstream faggots what cyberpunk is

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>>384584687
this is nice
>>384585081
oh hell yeah post more, is there a PDF?

>>384585081
so Mike says they are putting these classes in the game with "a surprise". No idea what that could be, I don't think you could/should be able to be a solo-cop hybrid for example.

>>384583270
I'm gonna check it out

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>>384585081
>Corporate

>>384585424
Yes there is
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cyberpunk+2020+pdf

>>384571548
We have shadowrun already fuck off with your isometric meme

>>384561116
The exact same way they fucked up the Witcher. Stale, shallow gameplay and a laser focus on quest storylines.
Except this time it won't win any awards because normies want BotW tier open worlds where freedom & gameplay >>> Narrative.

PERSONAL
RESPONSIBILITY

(why was this memed again? actually like the song)

>>384570979
I imagine it will be something akin to vampire the masquerade but who knows.

>>384586018
>http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cyberpunk+2020+pdf
thank you

>>384585081
But they all sound so good its gunna be a hard choice. Apart from Solo, seems like your generic action game character

>>384586142
So, in this case, the normies are on the right, correct?

>>384561116
>How will CD Projekt fuck it up?
There will be no nudity :^)

>>384566224
For a game with that many set pieces, plot lines and mechanics I think they did excellent and should have set (reset?) the standard for what a "good" AAA title should be like.

It's not flawless by any means and lacks some polishing. Still the best triple A title we have to date tho.

>>384586854
Solo sounds like it could be cool because the only way they can really solve things is through violence so your play-through could be an absolute train wreck if there's real consequences

>>384561987
I guess the same reason New Vegas sucked dick then

>>384587326
Didnt really think of it that way.. to be honest if the classes make big impacts on play throughs I'll definitely be doing multiple play throughs anyway

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>>384586279

>>384570979
I think it will not be implemented with the main story, but with the side quests... Each class will have different side activities. Main story should be same for every class with deep choice & consequence etc..

by handholding you from objective marker to objective marker and spoonfeeding you precise step-by-step solution to every quest, ie: by making it like TW3.

It's almost embarrassing how many people think this is an original IP instead of an adaptation of a tabletop RPG. Much like there's still retards that think The Witcher is an original IP instead of an adaptation of a book series.

>>384570979

The only reason you can't imagine it is because no one has done it yet.

I think we'll be surprised by the shit they do with this game.

>>384568737
Stuck choosing between Solo, Corporate and Fixer.

>>384568998
So, SOMA meets Evil Within but with a more sensible plot?

>>384561495
why do people shit on witcher's combat? i bet the same people have thousands of hours logged on skyrim yet dont see any issue with that combat.

>>384570979
if you become sinless at start your class probably dont matter

What are some good cyberpunk games I can play now?

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you guys think cyberpunk 2077 will beat RUINER in terms of style and music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO49nxUvccM


i think ruiner sets a new bar for cyberpunk in vidya desu

>>384593752

Those guys are ex-CDPR devs too if I'm not mistaken.

Can't wait to play it, looks dope.

>>384561116
Markers for everything, hands-off gaming.

>>384593673
Deus Ex

>>384583968
Bitcher 3 showed that they are sure as hell trying to be.