Please explain to me why trial and error is an inherently evil

PLAYIN CHESS WIT IT TOO

>>384192847
Theres OK trial and error. If you're learning how advanced mechanics work it's fine.

If a puzzle or combat requires incredibly precise inputs to complete its a problem.

BETTY SPAGHETTI

>>384192847
The whole hotline miami is this

Had they had a checkpoint system or save any where system the game would probably be completed in 10 min

Number 2 is even worse it took me 1 hour to get to the next floor then another 1 hoir to get to thw other flor by thag time i was bored so just quite then the next time i turn it on i have to restart from the begining

>>384193952

They have a checkpoint system, every screen you clear is saved.

So your argument is that failure from things you couldn't predict is boring?

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>>384192847
>3 doors
>behind 1 door is 100$
>behind the other two is instant death
>wow how fun walking back twice


It takes player skill completely out of the equation.

It depends how much of a time commitment is required before the game fucks you over and makes you do it again.

>>384193952
Hotline Miami is good about this. There is a lot of trial and error, but it costs you like 5 seconds at most

>>384194495

How about a less extreme example, say, damage?

I see a lot of people complaining about the fact that some damage instances in a few moments of games are unfair when they are just a big part of a health bar that can be healed. If an enemy does a movement that is unpredictable and you take damage should you just simply learn from that and avoid next time? Is that really something you consider detrimental to the experience?

>>384194495
you sound like a quitter

>>384192847
You cant make your paying customers feel like a failure.

Please keep in mind many phone games are built to never lose and always make you feel good.

if they feel bad they get refunds

>>384194898
>Please keep in mind many phone games are built to never lose and always make you feel good.
bet you never got to advanced levels in Candy Crush

>>384194898

Is that really the case? In the 90s the market was flooded with difficult games and even some that we'd consider easy like Mario still forced a failure state on the less proficient players.

I understand that the paradigm changed, but it doesn't mean any sort of punishment should be avoided.

>>384194803
If it's something you can learn to avoid and adapt to, it's not trial and error. Do you not know what trial and error is?

>>384195387
Do you know what trial and error is?

Any mechanic that divorces player agency and skill from how successful they'll be at the game is a shit mechanic.

>>384195387

Are you referring to unfair situations? That is not what all trial and error is, a lot of it is using in learning consistent patterns.

Fuck, the reason why you are typing in English right now is because you learned it largely through trial and error.

>>384195160
By then you're already, literally, addicted to the game. Then it's about milking you dry, power up by power up.

Also, @OP, trial and error is bad because a game should feel intuitive. There's a huge difference between trying and failing a puzzle and trying to do use X mechanic in a way and failing over, and over, and over again with no indication that what you're doing is possible or not.

>>384194803
It only becomes a problem when there's no reasonable way to solve a problem without making an error. If that attack is completely unpredictable with no telegraph, that's poor design. It's even worse if that attack kills me instantly.

betty spaghetti, leather pleather or something

>>384195756
that would imply any and all co-op multiplayer games are bad because you can't win on your own.

>>384195635
>>384195840
Trial and error is when it's pretty much random chance that you find the right way. If the only way to figure out the right way to go is "choose the correct door", that's trial and error. If it's just a new enemy move that can be dodged but was unexpected, that's not trial and error. That's reflexes. Trial and error is pretty much separate from logic.

>>384193809
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>>384195756
>>384195904
>>384196157

I disagree. Unless the punishment goes overboard I have no problems with players finding out things/improving by being lightly punished or reprimanded, through our entire lives we have learned things this way.

Even games like Mega Man which are usually considered fair I doubt you'll find someone who clears one without taking damage on their very first time. Maybe I'll eat my words here but once you get through some of the things the game doesn't explain well it's smooth sailing from there, especially on repeated playthroughs. I understand it can be frustrating to be punished by something you had no control over, but once it happened you can avoid the next one and evolve as a player.

I disagree that games should exist in this field that is inherently different from real life applications and should be only 100% "fair entertainment". Conquering something, especially when it isn't fair, is very satisfying.

>>384197161
Learning that a weapon/attack does more damage on an enemy than another weapon/attack, learning that this telegraph means a certain attack is coming or discovering the way to get out of a maze is trial and error. It isn't limited to "you win or you lose lololo", it's also about being more effective.

>>384197415
I can't agree. Losing because I made a mistake is fine, I'll try not to make the mistake next time. Losing because I guessed wrong is just frustrating. I think you should be able to overcome any problem with skill and understanding of the mechanics.

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>>384197349

>>384198383

Well, keep in mind that I'm saying punished, not losing. Trial and error as a learning tool can be part of an experience but if everything relies on it games will indeed be frustrating.

That said, if you are performing at a level that your, say, HP is critical and an enemy character does something that you couldn't see coming then that is a consequence of you playing dangerously and letting the situation get there in the first place, ideally.

>>384198383
Your argument relies entirely on the fact that you can't accept that some games might test your luck, as if that was a sin.

>>384198707
i still find it funny how skydiddy was the true successful one out of that tester 3 bunch even though he didnt win the competition.

There are no inherently evil designs and the fact that people think there are "cardinal sins" of game design shows stunted thinking. It's not about what you do but when and where you do it. Trial and error has its place. So do jump scares. And "artificial difficulty". The problem is when these things are misused and abused.

>>384199115
True, I should probably specify that I'm taking about games mostly based around mechanic skill. Otherwise, risk management can be perfectly fine, although it can lead to some massive bullshit e.g. Missing a 99% accurate attack etc.

>>384199048
Fair enough, progressing by trying new things
and seeing their results can be a good thing and stuff like
>HP is critical and an enemy character does something that you couldn't see coming then that is a consequence of you playing dangerously and letting the situation get there in the first place, ideally.
is fine. I just don't like being punished when I haven't made a mistake.

I can just look up how to do it on the internet

>>384192847
I don't think it's inherently evil but depending on how long it takes you to get back to the trial and error part, it can be a bit of a dick move on devs part.

>>384199248
What? How? How is he successful?
Only really know what happened to Arin which is he became absolute shit but what happened to the rest?

>>384202215
>How is he successful?

hes still really close with sony and they still send him stuff/invite him for special events and game testing opportunities. he was pretty close with the dev team behind kill strain.
funny enough though, the game ended up dying and ultimately shutting down only months after its release.

>>384193140
BETTY

They can't because /v/ is and has been casual as fuck for years.

>WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW MAN WHAT DO YOU MEAN I NEED TO LEARN TO PLAY? WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW FUCKING ARCHAIC GAME DESIGN FOR AUTISTS I HAVE A LIFE BRO

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>>384203337

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>>384204019
>ywn watch the tester season 3 with /v/ again

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>watch for Egoraptor
>genuinely like Skydiddy, Jtight, Betty Spaghetti, and that other guy
guy
>now I actually hate Egoraptor and don't give a shit about him

Krysti was pretty sexy and I think Betty Spaghetti got a job at or was seen skinnier at a Best Buy by some anon that recognized him.

Where are they now? I think Chad grew into a realtor or some shit.

>>384192847

It's hard to implemented correctly.

Games with good trial and error ensure that the time between "trial" and "error" is limited (low respawn times, well placed checkpoints, etc). This helps make sure that the game's flow isn't interrupted.

Games that implement trial and error wrong have time between "trial" and "error" that is either long or excessive (running between rooms that have been done before, long game over scenes etc). That can ruin a game's pace.

>>384198383
You're contradicting yourself.
Making a mistake and guessing wrong are very similar in many games where multiple actions and choices are performed quickly, unless it is a true "guess", which is quite rare.

>>384193672
>If a puzzle or combat requires incredibly precise inputs to complete its a problem.
Why