How do we save the diablolike genre from pointless loot treadmills

>>383484347
It's dead already, all the cool kids moved to loot shooters.

>>383484347
LoD is the pinnacle of the genre and nothing will ever surpass it

>>383484347
>pointless loot treadmills and shallow clickfest combat
That is the diablolike genre

inb4 dodge rolls

>>383484643
This.

It's like OP is saying "how can we keep third-person shooters from become endless aiming and shooting and ducking and hiding?" Or "collect-a-thons from endless... collecting?"

It's just the genre. Doesn't mean it's bad.

>>383484347
Median XL already did that though

>>383485338
>doesn't mean it's bad
/v/ will argue this

Did they change the reforge legendary chances? I've gotten three ancients in a row

>>383484347
>how do we save diablo from diablo

>>383484643
this

more clicking to do and it turns into dota, less and it's a point n' click

>>383484347
Doesn't really need to be saved.
D2 is fun to play for a bit every now and then, path of exile was fun last I played it.

I've heard there are other new games in the genre that are good too.

>>383484563
This. Diablo 3 fucked it all up by removing the item economy and making the ladder into highest level bullshit. Everyone that actually played LoD ladder would know that the carrot lied in hyper inflated item values after reset.

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>>383484347
>pointless loot treadmills
Don't make it about the loot, make it about beating the game. Loot should still be there, it should still be important and a big part of the game, but your ultimate goal in the game should be to kill the final boss at max difficulty, not chasing zod runes or whatever. Also to do this the game needs to become way more difficult, in diablo 2 you almost were guaranteed to kill Baal the first time around no matter how shit you were, so make normal actually difficult, and just have new game+ as a bonus in case you want to play your character more, not the intended progression through the game.
>shallow clickfest combat
make it third person, add rolls and blocks and different attack moves and all that shit for melee skills and FPS/TPS aim mechanics for ranged skills. Cut down on the monster numbers but not a great deal. The skills from your skill tree now should have different areas of use so you don't just pour all your points into frozen orb or whatever and hold m2 the entire game, melee skills come in the form of new attack moves (different weapon classes have different base movesets but there aren't that many of them, maybe like ten or so), attack skills are usually weapon-specific), ranged attack skills function like selecting different weapons in FPS games, buff/move/etc skills have separate button(s). Potions are not as spammable, health regeneration is a relatively limited resource. TP scrolls don't exist, waypoints are the way to get back to town.
>oh like dark souls right XDDD
dark souls didn't invent third person melee combat, and is much slower than this would be
>other
gore and dismemberment
open world design but linear progression through it, because it's hard to balance a combat-based RPG like this with free roaming but at the same time it's much cooler than the fenced-in pastures that are standard, though the layout could still be randomized to a degree
grimdark medieval low fantasy is a must

>>383486740
so cuhrayzee games except with more emphasis on loot?

pass

add druid plz

>>383486740
Fuck you and your post

>>383486873
he didn't say anything about doing combos on enemies who have too much health

>>383486740
sounds awful

>>383484347
remake it in hd and prevent duping on battle.net

release a new act and class

update battle.net, modernize the chat hub and include minigames/new social structures

i guarantee the playerbase would idle at at least 40k in every region for another 5-10 years

grim dawn

>>383486873
not really, those games have a completely different structure, far larger movelists and shit, only focus on one character and melee combat
>>383486952
>>383487123
wrong

>>383487209
adding, desu if blizzard had actually not actively tried to destroy the game by stopping ban waves for bots and dupes (thanks faggot ass D3), D2 LoD would still be thriving by itself

Wasn't D2 just a pointless gear treadmill? What was even the point? For years there was basically nothing once you hit level cap and got the gear you wanted. You just grinded Baal for XP and then what's next? It's only until Uber Diablo and the bunch that there was really anything to do.

Good Diabloclones died never to return again when Dungeon Runners went offline

>>383487460
>once you hit level cap
uhh, maybe 0.1% of the playerbase hit levelcap

the replayability for me came from the fuckton of builds you could make and often you needed expensive gear to make them viable¨

>grinding baal past nm
havent done that since 1.10

>>383487460
ladders ensured that you were motivated to race to build new characters over and over again

tons of fun character builds that you could gear out and build

fun pvp

real life economy through d2jsp and forum gold made trade and social structure completely and totally addicting

if you felt that grinding baal was the endgame, you probably didn't make any real cash on the game/you probably didn't have several accounts of mules with hundreds of valuable items

>>383487293
>Lets turn Diablo into a generic character action game
>Lets make it linear
>Lets remove anything that made NG+ and NG++ more challenging
D2 normal was meant to prepare you for the higher difficulties. Not for you to beat and stop playing.

>>383487460
>What was even the point?
kill diablo

>>383487680
>real life economy through d2jsp and forum gold
CANCER
A
N
C
E
R

>>383487669
>>383487680
So, gear treadmill then?

>>383487680
>you probably didn't make any real cash on the game/you probably didn't have several accounts of mules with hundreds of valuable items

>>383485338
>>383485526
it is bad, it's not about skill or challenge, it's about pure addiction, it's barely a step above gambling

>>383484347
>Surely this can't be the best the genre can offer?
No, look at Diablo 3.

>>383487680
This guy gets it

>>383487209
>remake it in hd
Aren't they doing this?
I heard about a remaster probably coming not long ago

>>383487790
gear treadmill implies stagnancy, whereas in d2 you were always becoming richer and racing to become as rich as fuck to build your value before the ladder reset everything

>>383487770
you're an idiot who probably has issues talking to people

>>383487808
>gambling isn't fun because I don't like it
did you ever consider that maybe the genre just isn't to your taste and you should let other people have fun in it

>>383487949

releasing an hd version of d2 would seriously compromise their entire investment in the necro DLC shit for d3

i don't expect and hd version of d2 for years

>>383487951
>you're an idiot who probably has issues talking to people
Not really, I just don't think RMT improves videogames

jsp is the biggest reason D2 became the botter shitfest it is today.

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>>383487680
>tfw mule account with 100 enigmas gets hacked

>>383488065

nah jsp is the only reason the d2 economy thrived. plenty of people completely avoided rmt and just built fg through play alone, look at path of exile where fg still thrives

the game became a botter shitfest because blizzard had to abandon protecting it to retain their new investment, do you remember the release of d3? everyone who loved d2 thought it was shit and went back in like 3 weeks, there were points where d2 had more actual players than d3

which is a complication if they ever released an hd version of d2. they would never design it to retain players, as no game is designed for player retention anymore. everything is yearly EA sports

>>383487808
The challenge lies in getting high end loot with high stat rolls and raping people outside the rogue encampment for their ears.

>nah jsp is the only reason the d2 economy thrived.
yeah mang, the economy thrives when you can buy 40HRs for $2.99 off b ots

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>>383486740
>Don't make it about the loot, make it about beating the game. Loot should still be there, it should still be important and a big part of the game, but your ultimate goal in the game should be to kill the final boss at max difficulty, not chasing zod runes or whatever. Also to do this the game needs to become way more difficult, in diablo 2 you almost were guaranteed to kill Baal the first time around no matter how shit you were, so make normal actually difficult, and just have new game+ as a bonus in case you want to play your character more, not the intended progression through the game.

So Diablo 3 on release?
Know how i know you didnt play it?
It was shit.

>>383487717
>Lets turn Diablo into a generic character action game
I didn't know generic character action games had half fps combat and controls, large skill trees filled with all sorts of skills (no, unlocking a high kick or whatever isn't the same as skilling in war cries, shadow clone, paladin auras, etc). I know I said it wouldn't be like dark souls, but fuck if that wouldn't be a much more apt comparison, it's just that dark souls is slow as fuck, built around melee and has very deliberate level design.
>Lets make it linear
diablo is already linear, what fucking games have you played? The acts are one wide randomly-generated corridor, basically from the blood moor to the throne of destruction, with optional or non-optional side areas. My suggestion would just to be to make that wide corridor into a camping trail around a large nature park, you're intended to follow the path in both cases, but in the second you at least have the option of moving outside of it, even if you'll get eaten by a mountain lion or fall down a cliff. It's more for aesthetics sake in the end, because having the world be boxed off by waist-high cobblestone walls is stupid.
>Lets remove anything that made NG+ and NG++ more challenging
NG+ and NG++ as intended "true" levels of difficulty are fucking stupid. You've already played through all these areas on baby mode, so why does that mode exist? All it does is take out the mystery and danger of getting to a new area, because hey you know exactly what's here, might as well just have watched a lets play of the game before playing though it. I'm not saying NG+ in my suggestion wouldn't be more difficult (as appropriate since you're 50 levels higher in the start), but the base game itself should be enough unless you're hungry for more, it shouldn't be a 6 hour long tutorial. Just add difficulty selection or baby wheel training mechanics for the casuals. Nobody liked having to run through normal 60 times to get to the real game.

>>383488583

you're looking at the situation after the game was effectively abandoned, not when it was at its pinnacle

you can build an empire but if you don't fucking keep up with the infrastructure it's going to go to shit 100/100 times

Its called diablo 1. Instead of a disgusting endless grind the game is all about slowly decending into hell with only little light and various quests.

>>383489164
Yeah, it's not like JSP started off as literally a bot site

>>383487951
>gear treadmill implies stagnancy, whereas in d2 you were always becoming richer and racing to become as rich as fuck to build your value before the ladder reset everything
And what's the point of being rich as fuck? In real life when you're rich as fuck you can buy top-end luxury items or influence society. In a non-pointless grind when you're rich as fuck you can finally beat the hardest challenge in the game. What's there to do when you're rich as fuck in diablo, except swim around in your pile of SoJs like you're scrooge mcduck?

>>383489062

NG+ and NG++ should be intended true levels of difficulty in these sorts of games. all of the fun is unlocking an entirely new table of interesting loot and presenting your character to a challenge that's astronomically different than the last. if you think normal --> nightmare in d2 wasn't a complete leap into new mystery and danger, you just need to leave commenting alone and avoid this genre

>>383488748
diablo 3 had literally NG+, NG++ AND NG+++, as well as utterly shit loot, auction house, bullshit difficulty scaling and just tons of other problems. The issue wasn't that the game wasn't built around farming legendaries just to get richer.

>>383489262
it didn't, i was there, don't make stuff up for sake of argument.

>>383489305
build new characters, prepare for the next ladder race, cash out for FG, sell FG for real money, whatever you want. you're looking at a decade+ online game with 20/20 hindsight. in addition, building wealth was entirely different before bots sucked the life out of the game due to blizzard's abandonment.

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>>383484347

>>383489780
jsp's founder literally made the site to sell his bot you fucking newfag

it wasnt untill later on it got traffic they thought that oh shit maybe we shouldnt sell a bot here

>>383489450
So make those tables unlock when you reach X point in the game? Are you saying diablo 2 would be worse if nightmare and hell unlocked actual new areas and enemies instead of reusing the same monsters you've been fighting for the past day or so? Basically no other games use this system, even path of exile has now done away with it even if it's still a lot of filler. Even if you for some reason want to force the player to play easy mode first, why not just use the standard Easy/Normal/Hard difficulty selection at the start of each character, with Nightmare or Hell being unlocked when you beat the game once? And even then I've never heard a single person say they like being forced into the playpen before getting to play the hard difficulties, and you want to force the player to do this every single time they start a new character? In a game that you want to have a lot of replayability? Seriously, what's fucking wrong with just starting the game off in a real difficulty?

>>383489938
no, njaguar made his bot and JSP offered it, but it quickly restricted all mention of botting. jsp was never a "botting site," it just offered a primitive as fuck MF bot that was mostly focused on running bosses in HC.

>>383489062
Hellgate: London is a thing and it's garbage. Sure Diablo had a "linear" path, but how the hell were you supposed to know that the extra areas were optional? And you're just plain wrong about NG+. Completely missed the point.

TL;DR Diablo should be Diablo

>>383490328
>jsp was never a botting site, but you could download a bot from their site
hmm

>>383484347
>"How do we save the genre from what it is?"
There's no saving it.
Mindless click speedfarming by abusing broken skills/equipment is all the games ever were except Diablo 1, which was too shallow to require even that -- later games just introduced high difficulty content which just degenerated into builds trying to keep leech equilibrium against extreme damage as part of the speed farming.

The only time I felt like I was playing a legitimately good game was pre-patch D3 when you hit Act 2 Inferno, and had to actively dodge every single ground effect and slowly chip away at elites before they enraged and factor in every modifier, even straight-up running away from certain nigh impossible-to-kill combinations. For something like that to "last" you would need to really clamp down on damage dealing, damage mitigation, leech, HP, etc. gains from gear, making it something that isn't like Diablo.

D3 pre-patch wasn't a Diablo game, it was better, much better. You inched towards victory and had to actually think about what you were doing and constantly make adjustments.

Take more inspiration from Diablo 1, classic roguelikes and "proper" WRPGs. More slower pace, resource management, consumable items, and so on. Less twitch reflex logoutcore gameplay and building characters for one mouse rightclick, more different classes playing radically differently.

>>383490438
you can't disprove a game mechanic forever with one shit game that happens to contain it, if you disagree I could bring up loads of examples
> Sure Diablo had a "linear" path, but how the hell were you supposed to know that the extra areas were optional?
Alright, so instead of you going blood moor-cold plains-stony field you go moor-plains-cave-plains-field the first time around. It's still a linear game, the existence of dead ends doesn't make a game nonlinear.

And explain what the point of NG+ is, you seem like you want an argument or you would just have called me a fag

>>383490478
a botting site revolves around distributing bots and around the botting community.

like a month into d2jsp's inception, it restricted any mention of botting. paul didn't build a botting site, he built a site around creating an in game economy. a burger stand that has a milkshake on the menu doesn't mean the burger stand is a milkshake joint, faggot fuck.

>>383490551
>d3 legitimately good game
cya

>>383490307
starting in different difficulties is different than progressing into new difficulties through different acts. if you had a normal difficulty acts 1-4, nightmare 5-8, hell 9-12 or something like that it might work, but if you just let people start in nightmare you'd have to alot them nightmare-level character stats to use nightmare equipment, which would never work because it would irreparably destroy the fun of the loot tables and trading systems/races for the new ladder seasons

>>383491070
>like a month into d2jsp's inception, it restricted any mention of botting
Yeah, but didn't entforce it for shit

All of my jsp user friends botted and nobody gave a flying fuck, just keep the fg rolling

>>383491070
>a burger stand that has a milkshake on the menu doesn't mean the burger stand is a milkshake joint, faggot fuck.

Except in this case we're talking about a milkshake joint that suddenly got popular for its burgers and quietly decided to rebrand before anyone realized their milkshakes were illegal.

remove the ability to one hit and the ability to be one hit except for moves that can be easily read.

Almost like Dark Souls in a way.

>>383484347
>pointless loot treadmills and shallow clickfest combat?
Uh, that IS the genre.

>>383491070
>No arguments.
Pre-patch D3 was the only game in the genre that didn't degenerate to some shitty gookclick until it was patched. That's more that can be said about basically all the other games.

>>383491393
except that's a lie, i knew paul and njaguar, the whole point of the conception was to develop an economy not to contribute to botting, and d2jsp banned all mention of botting almost right away. either way duping killed d2 not botting.

>>383491708
>the whole point of the conception was to develop an economy not to contribute to botting
>has a bot available on the site
?
?????????????????????

>>383491708
My dad works at blizzard and says you are wrong

>>383491639
that's your opinion and i'm not going to argue against it, but considering the player retention of diablo 3 and the general consensus, i don't really need to say much

>>383491070
Nightmare in this case (if we're using d2 as an example) would make the mobs have nightmare AI, nightmare speed, nightmare unique affixes, come in nightmare pack sizes and so on, but their HP/damage numbers would maybe be like, 50-100% higher from normal, not built around level 30 characters. It would be like starting off in ultra-violence in doom, it's not NG+.
>. if you had a normal difficulty acts 1-4, nightmare 5-8, hell 9-12 or something like that it might work
But this is what I'm saying to add to the game, this is a normal difficulty scaling where you're not replaying the same thing thrice. Naming these "difficulties" would be pointless, you could simply refer to them by their act. That's how a normal game works, it becomes more difficult the further you progress in the game, but you can also make it more difficult by the setting you choose at the start. Loot tables and shit like that would just be determined by area level, not difficulty.

>>383491805
>log on pornhub to watch porn
>there is an ad for digiorno pizza
>this is a pizza site

>>383487976
>it's just a matter of taste
things like loot grinders and gambling are objectively bad for you, it's not a question of weather you find it 'fun' or not

>>383490913
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. There were optional side quests as well. That's like saying GTA 5 was linear because there's a beginning and an end with side missions in between.

NG+ in Diablo was robust. Games like Dark Souls offer it as well, but there's literally no reason to play through as they only offer harder enemies. Diablo offered harder enemies with modifiers that made it so you couldn't cheese the "entire" game with a ice sorc. It also offered a world of new items for each difficulty.

>>383491829
progressing into more difficult acts would likely be fine, more content would not be bad, but allowing a character to jump into a different difficulty would inevitably destroy loot balance as the different difficulty would demand better loot

>>383491920
>log on digiorno pizza site to buy a pizza
>digiorno pizza has a christian company that supposedly hates porn
>contact these hot milfs in your area!

>>383491930
what evidence do you have?

>>383491930
I can understand gambling for it's economical factor but how exactly are root grinder vidyas any worse for you than other vidya

>>383488340
its called ruststorm

>>383492161
d2jsp was never premised on hating botting it was premised on streamlining the economy

>>383491819
>Player retention
Consoles. The game was designed with casuals in mind. Of course the WoW crowd and console kids love it. Diablo 2 retained players for years until Blizzard let it die.

>>383488340
>implying any of those were legit
its called ruststorm

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>There's a million different ways to build your character!
>Character classes!
>Skill trees!
>Stat points!
>Star signs!
>Weapon upgrades!
>Armour upgrades!
>Mercenaries/Hirelings!
Cool. I hope I can switch between all of these really easily and try out a load of different builds!

>First 30 levels of your character is spent basic attacking trash mobs.
>Of those 30 skill levels, 20+ will be spent on passive stats or crap skills you're only picking to get further up the skill tree.
>Any stats you pick will be locked in forever.
>Any skills you pick will cost you an arm and a leg to refund.
>Any EXP you gain with your hireling will be lost if you swap them out.
>Any item upgrades you use will be wasted when you find a stronger weapon.

The entire genre is fucking garbage because it's held onto this "core ruleset" that ultimately make the games more worse than better. Who's brilliant idea was it to lock the difficulty levels behind NG+'s? Why should I have to finish the game twice to unlock the 'real' difficulty?

>>383491930
>be dumb stone age man
>see fruit in tree
>climb tree and get fruit

we've been gambling forever

>>383492642
you just described D3 which is not a fun game so why would anyone want to play that trash twice

i cringed so hard at girldiablo talking shit over ESP like star fox or something that i almost immediately uninstalled right then and there

difference is, d2 was actually fun so you wanted to play it again

>>383492058
>I'm not sure what you're getting at here. There were optional side quests as well. That's like saying GTA 5 was linear because there's a beginning and an end with side missions in between.
It's linear but with optional objectives. My version would also have sidequests of course, it's just that when you say "open world" that implies you can fuck off to the other side of the map at level 1, which would be really hard to balance with RPG progression like this. I just want the open world for the sake of immersion and coolness, mainly, in the end it would be similar to diablo 2 except instead of cobblestone walls funneling you in the right direction, it would be quest design and un-intended areas being too difficult, or something like that.

And NG+ WAS robust in diablo 2, my issue is with NG-vanilla being way too easy yet mandatory.
>>383492142
Not necessarily, because as I also mentioned in my original post, the game would be much more player skill-centric. Of course it's a matter of how good the devs are at balancing everything so the game might not even have difficulty settings, but if it did it would be possible to bridge that difficulty gap by just getting good.

>>383484347
>shallow clickfest combat

what do you want some sort of DDR required movement combat system just so perform a simple attack?

>>383491819
That's not a matter of opinion at all, that's quite literally fact. This is about a very brief window in D3, and how the gameplay was extremely engaging. Hell, eventually D3 became just like D2X, PoE, TL2, etc, regardless: mind-numbing loot treadmill where you endlessly spam a couple broken skills with some broken equipment to obliterate droves of monsters a second in high-speed loot runs.

I'm not even arguing D3 vanilla was a good game, but it was more engaging gameplay where I felt like I was participating in combat.

>>383492642
>. Who's brilliant idea was it to lock the difficulty levels behind NG+'s? Why should I have to finish the game twice to unlock the 'real' difficulty?
diablo 1&2 did it as filler so now everyone has to do the same thing

"diablo 2 did it" is basically the main motivating factor for most elements of the genre

>>383492642
>I hope I can switch between all of these really easily

Why the fuck

Don't be like your parents and learn to plan ahead, you fucking abortion

>>383492790
literally how is that gambling

>>383492642
>The entire genre is fucking garbage because it's held onto this "core ruleset" that ultimately make the games more worse than better. Who's brilliant idea was it to lock the difficulty levels behind NG+'s? Why should I have to finish the game twice to unlock the 'real' difficulty?

The genre has a lot of vestigial design choices because they all are based off of Diablo 2. You may not have noticed but game development these days is lacking in imagination. That's ok though, Rome wasn't built in a day!

>>383494608

That anon gave a bad example but hunting and gathering in general is gambling. That's why gambling appeals to people, it stimulates the same parts of the brain that foraging for food does.

>>383494608
you might fall off the tree and kys yourself

>>383494789
sounds like a win-win to me

>>383489840
>Gook shit based on le meme hard gaem

The correct way to do the difficulty levels would be

>1. Normal (you start from rags and have a competent character that starts looking like his build by the end)
>2. Nightmare (from where your character ended Normal, to your full glory by the end, last areas are already endgame and can drop top tier gear)
>3. whatever epic endgame meme like maps or random quests or whatever goes here
>4. Hell (nothing you can't already get or quest rewards or xp you need to level further better than before this point drops here, it's for the fun of clearing the whole game at full challenge level with an endgame character, beating the final boss on Hell just gives you the true ending)

People who don't know anything about the genre complain about muh difficulty levels, but they aren't just "difficulty levels" like in a normal game where you can choose easy/normal/hard. Nobody has the budget to make a game with 15 full acts or some shit.

>>383494970
Replaying the game 3 times is a shit mechanic, D3 and PoE realised this.

>>383494608
it is a gamble whether the man will get hurt or not
it is a gamble whether the fruit will be good or not

gambling isn't just slots, poker and other RNG games

>>383494970
>Nobody has the budget to make a game with 15 full acts or some shit.
Maybe not 15 entirely newly skinned areas (hell, I doubt I could COME UP with that many zones with the diversity of act 1-5 in diablo), but you sure as shit could make a game with a similar length, especially if it's actually difficult
>>383495101
poe does it right, but d3 has even worse difficulty than D2, it's just pointless number scaling

>>383495101
Then what would you have instead?

Insane exponential skyrocketing powercurve to fit all character building in a single pass?
"It's just like dark souls" with minimal increase in power levels through the entire game?
Let the players choose the option to start at high level with all quest rewards to go the the highest difficulty right away?

>>383495101
D3 did not. Paragon levels say hello.

>>383495543
>Insane exponential skyrocketing powercurve to fit all character building in a single pass?
Why the need for a skyrocket in the powercurve if you get the balance right? afaik PoE's next expansion will make the second playthrough very different from the first

>>383495667
In D3 you can skip the whole fucking story bullshit and jump straight into rifts / bounties

>>383495906
>afaik PoE's next expansion will make the second playthrough very different from the first
You realize they're pretty much just recycling the acts so it's probably going to end up being mostly the same thing, right?

>In D3 you can skip the whole fucking story bullshit and jump straight into rifts / bounties
>skipping the game to go straight into the endless loot treadmill skinner box endgame
>implying that's good design

>>383495543
not him, but I'd just make the game longer
power scaling would go from rags with a few basic moves/spells to having tons, so your character is like flipping through the air and raining down exploding lightning javelins and doing twenty hit combos, but the mobs are actually as cool and powerful as you so you're not just popping hurricane and walking through all mobs like they're dust in the wind, it's a real fast-paced challenge, being hard slows down your progression and fills the game out so you don't need to create 15 acts or reuse the 5 you have to make the game last longer than 5 hours.

>>383495252
diablo isn't even gambling, it's a skinner box

>>383493256
>calling shitty mob mods that spawned literally unkillable mobs once every other area """engaging"""
>calling level progression where you go from wrecking everything within a second to doing no damage and having no sustainability in a few levels due to the exponential damage/hp scaling of the game """engaging"""
I'd call it shit design, but whatever.

>>383494005
>I should consult three different guides, lurk a fan forum and write out a character roadmap before even starting the game.

hmm

>>383496164
The zone layouts are shuffled up, new zones added in each "recycled act" with new enemies, no repeating quests either. Is your idea of recycling just "HURR THEY USE THE SAME TILESET"?

>>383492642
>Offer the player a lot of different build possibilities.
>But then ask the player to invest 80+ hours in one character to reach max level.
All this side-content and yet a single player will barely experience a fleck of it.

>>383491930
>are bad for you
how, exactly, is grinding in an rpg "bad" for me, as opposed to playing other video games?

>>383497375
Don't forget all new bosses too

These games reward only repetition and build theorycrafting. For example, PoE builds consist of pressing a single mouse button over and over again, what the hell kind of combat is that?

>>383484347
Welcome to ARPGs.

>>383497553
I kind of agree with him. Any game that doesn't evoke some kind of cognitive process isn't necessarily bad for you, but it's a waste of time, which IS bad for you. You should be experiencing something new rather than performing the same monotonous task over and over. I'm not saying they have to be Bioshock Infinite levels of brain-activation, but any kind of treadmill (other than an actual one) can't be healthy.

The people playing endless games of Dota and League of Legends apply too.

>>383492642
I agree that locking difficulty behind completing the game once is fucking retarded, but wanting free respec on literally everything (you can already respect skill points) would be terrible, the fun of the game is playing trough with different builds. Nothing forces you to spend all points into passives anyway. Pick a few early skills to use and refund them later, it's not expensive at all.

>>383498191
diablolikes are ARPGS but all ARPGS aren't diablolikes

>>383495101
>PoE realised this.
they did?
Why can't I start on the hardest diffuculty then?
I'm pretty sure you have to beat the game to go to the next difficulty

>>383498196
so what are some good games that are not wastes of time?

>>383498402
there are no difficulties anymore, just act 1-10 and then maps

>>383498196
Sure, I think we can all agree that games basically generally exist on the "bad" end of the spectrum, but then what do you suggest? We play these things for fun, not for autism. I'd posit that no game activated my almonds more than PoE did, I spent literally weeks of time trying to theorycraft a unique build without going into the flavor of the month memery. all of them failed tho

What's the contender? Puzzle games? They're the definition of anti-fun for me.

>>383484347
ARPGs are and will always be the second shittiest video game genre.

>need to spend 15-30 hours for your build to start taking form and the fun begins
>after you have all the necessary components and play style you just spam the same 3 active skills over 3 difficulties and run around in circles avoidinh boss 1hit kill aoes or just dont move and tank them
>everything after this is just the same gear but bigger numbers

>>383498679
but what if we fixed these things

>>383498196
>it's a waste of time
No time spent having fun is a waste of time.
Is re-reading your favorite book or rewatching your favorite movie a waste of time because you're not experiencing something new? No.
And saying "wasting your time is bad for you" is already a dumb statement.

Life isn't an optimization game where you must spend your time perfectly or you're losing. If it was, any video game would be bad for you, alongside the vast majority of movies, books, and other forms of entertainment.

>>383498505
this is how its gonna be when the expansion hits, right? Or did they already implement it?

>>383498890
yeah, 3.0 in early august or sometime then

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Necro > Pally > Sorc > Barb > Amazon > Assassin > Druid

>>383498971
should I even bother finishing my first playtrough now? I was playing for the first time this week but if everything is gonna change with the expansion, it feels kind of a waste

Nioh fixed a lot of things that I hate from this genre.

>Combat is not garbage boring click fest so you can have a lot of fun and challenge the second it starts
>You can play it like a regular action game in normal difficulty without caring for builds until you reach hard mode
>In hard mode you can craft weapons and choose all the effects you want in your weapon from a list so you dont have to rely on stupid RNG and hoarding weapons looking for good stats
>If you have skills you can kill anything with a shit tier 1 weapon instead of relying on bigger numbers alone

A shame everything else is terrible. The levels look bad and enemy variety is slow but gameplay is top notch.

>>383499080
more like
Necro > Barb > Sorc > Pally > Amazon > Assassin > Druid

>>383484347
>diablolike
Diablo 1 was just a graphical, simpler, more approachable version of Nethack.

>>383499234
Well everyone can at least agree on the bottom three.

>>383499149
If you want to, personally I haven't played since winter and am holding out for 3.0 so it's fresher

>>383484347
Everything is pointless once you look at them from a certain point of view.
As for saving the genre, let nature take its course.

>>383497940
>what the hell kind of combat is that?
combat codified in 1996/2000, all other following games are just nostalgiafagging so they don't want to change anything important

>>383499080
>>383499234

Fuck that. In terms of fun:

Bard > Amazon > Pally > Sorc > Assassin > Druid > Necro

>>383484347
>from pointless loot treadmills and shallow clickfest combat?

thats literally what the genre is

>>383484347
Left 4 Dead is first person Diablo with guns in modern times.
Someone can try making something similar but instead of the entire game being divided into "scenarios" it can just be a huge open world with just as much loot and character builds.

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>>383499771
>Left 4 Dead is first person Diablo with guns in modern times.
what the fuck

>>383497940
>FPS games always have click to shoot when will we get something better?

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>>383499771
>Left 4 Dead is first person Diablo with guns in modern times.

>>383499489
>Pally over Sorc in terms of fun
What are you smoking?

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>>383499771
>Borderlands is first person Diablo with guns

>>383500007
>Diablo is third-person isometric Borderlands in a fantasy setting

>>383499809
for shooting guns there is nothing better than point and click until we get to VR motion controls
for melee and spell combat there's like, twenty better systems

who /grim dawn/ here

REAL NIGGA ROLL CALL

Mario is the pretty much the Diablo of platforms who is also the Dark Souls of RPGs.

>>383500257
waiting for necromancer here

>>383500262
What exactly started this extremely dumb ''X is the X of X?

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>>383486740
>i-its not dark souls i promise!!!
>
>
>
>its dark souls

op asked how to save diablolikes not make a souls clone bloodborne baby

>>383500928
explain how it's dark souls

>>383484420
There is only one loot shooter and it is Borderlands. And that isn't saying much.

>>383499080
>>383499234
>>383499489
Assassin > Druid > Amazon > Sorc > Barb > Pally > Necro

>>383501010
>guy describes dark souls
>how is it dark souls??

>combat is only gameplay in games
reported

>>383501467
>dark souls invented rolling and blocking
literally the only other similarity aside from standard melee combat mechanics is standard health regen mechanics and standard difficulty mechanics

>>383484347
1. way: proper action combat: enemies telegraphs their attacks, you dodge them

2. way: proper tactical combat: you always have to consider using different skills/consumables based on different enemy moves, status effects, resistances etc.

diablolikes are literally about loot treadmills and shallow clickfest combat tho.

>>383486740
>dont make it about loot
stopped reading right here.

>>383501782
>>383501010
not him but everything you've mentioned is already how dark souls is, not just the blocking and rolling

>FPS/TPS aim mechanics for ranged skills. Cut down on the monster numbers but not a great deal. The skills from your skill tree now should have different areas of use so you don't just pour all your points into frozen orb or whatever and hold m2 the entire game, melee skills come in the form of new attack moves (different weapon classes have different base movesets but there aren't that many of them, maybe like ten or so), attack skills are usually weapon-specific), ranged attack skills function like selecting different weapons in FPS games, buff/move/etc skills have separate button(s). Potions are not as spammable, health regeneration is a relatively limited resource. TP scrolls don't exist, waypoints are the way to get back to town.
>Don't make it about the loot, make it about beating the game. Loot should still be there, it should still be important and a big part of the game, but your ultimate goal in the game should be to kill the final boss at max difficulty, not chasing zod runes or whatever. Also to do this the game needs to become way more difficult, in diablo 2 you almost were guaranteed to kill Baal the first time around no matter how shit you were, so make normal actually difficult, and just have new game+ as a bonus in case you want to play your character more, not the intended progression through the game.

you've pretty much listed everything that diablo isn't and what Dark Souls is. You would just want to make it faster and we already have Nioh/BB for that.

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>>383501234
Borderlands is for hipsters/reddit.

H1 and PUBG are the only loot shooters.

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>>383501252
Assassin is a boring normie class.

Ask a normie what class they played and it will always be Assassin 100% they didn't play any other class.

>1. Necro.
>2. Barb.
>3. Pally.
>4. Sorc.
>5. Druid.
>6. Amazon.
>7. Assassin.

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>>383499771

>objectively your opinion

>>383484347
>pointless loot treadmills and shallow clickfest combat?

Baalrun245

baalbot88

itelebaal10

baal234214

bb22222

baalrun246

baalrun247

>>383502564
Dark souls doesn't have FPS aim mechanics for ranged skills, yes I am aware of the bow but that shit is so fucking clunky it barely counts. Monster numbers would be far higher than dark souls, you'd still be facing off against dozens of monsters at a time, not 1-4 as in dark souls. Dark souls doesn't have skill trees. Dark souls doesn't give you new moves for your weapons based on skills, they're tied up in the weapons themselves. Dark souls does have unique movesets for weapons, but come on, you can't give a spear the same moveset as a hand axe. Again, dark souls doesn't have FPS aim mechanics. Dark souls doesn't have move skills. Dark souls does have limited regeneration but this is a standard game mechanic, and I never said you should just have estus. No TP scrolls tie into limited health regen.
This diablo would still have RNG loot with magic stat modifiers, not like dark souls where it's to 75% bound to placed item drops. Dark souls is difficult, but come on, it's not like it invented difficulty. And it would still not play like BB even if it was faster, there would be no endurance for example, nor as many animation locks, and the whole thing would be designed for mouse as well as built around ranged combat not just as a supplement to the main melee. And the level design would be far more open, randomized and less deliberate.

>>383503423
at LoD's launch it was all about them bloody foothill runs

>>383503123

guess what normies love to do?

have fun

necro is such an autist bait class and this thread proves it, plus only an autistic person would be able to put up with the yawnfest that is necro

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>>383503435
You've said TPS OR FPS and dark souls has TPS aiming. It's also only "clunky" in the first game since you can't move there while aiming but it works well in 2/3.
There isn't skill tree (neither does in Diablo3) but you still have different skills, they are called pyromancies/miracles/spells/hexes/consumables or even special weapon moves.
Das 2 and 3 already has way more enemies on screen at a time than das1.
Nioh already did the rng loot in a diablo like setting.
And as you've mentioned the whole "make the game based on completing the game just with ng plusses" is also there.

>>383504469
> in a diablo like setting.
I've meant dark souls there

>>383504469
TPS and FPS games aim the same as far as I'm concerned, you have a reticule that you move around with the mouse. I haven't tried doing it in the third game yet, but I'm sure it won't be as fluid as using a bow in like, TF2. Dark souls has skills, but doesn't have skill trees and doesn't unlock larger movesets for your weapons through skills. Dark souls spells also control incredibly clunkily and can barely be aimed without the target selection, and are a limited resource unlike melee combat. Dark souls 2 and 3 doesn't have dozens of monsters engaging you in combat simultaneously as a standard. I haven't played Nioh so I can't comment there, but the level design would be way different from dark souls. NG plus is a common feature in RPG games, already exists in diablo and the goal being beating the game instead of farming gear is like, 99% of all games out there. With many general things in common but all of them being different, I don't think it would play like dark souls at all.

>>383504246
yup, definitly a normalfag.
Can't even fathom the idea that there's more builds on the necro besides the skelletons.

Optimize encounter for WASD movment, like a twin stick shooter. Make gameplay fun and challening for both hands.

>>383501234
>hey guys i hate the very popular and successful videogame, am i cool enough for /v/ now?

borderlands 3 is going to make everyone on here an hero

>>383506054
>WASD movement

Any of the anons here played the Forced games? Those are isometric with WASD movement. Don't know that separating movement from the mouse adds that much there..

>>383505381
proper fps game like aiming in a melee focused action rpg is a horrible idea. It makes the game a shallow kiting fest and is literally what Hellgate London is.

>xy trait is a common thing in rpgs
sure but it's not commomn to have all these traits in the same rpg. I'm sure every single mechanic in souls was in one way or another in another game already but it's the overall design what makes it unique from other rpgs.

What you've described is still 90% DaS. Instead of listing all these things and saying that the game wouldn't be like Dark Souls, just say that you want a faster Dark Souls like game but with a skill tree and more enemies (which would be a pretty good direction for Diablo to go into).

>>383506452
it allows for much more precise dodges, esecially if you add a stamina dodge syste. Victor Vran did that for example. I really really liked it. Very engaging combat with the best overview a camera perspective can give you.

>>383484347

Apply the loot treadmill to more entertaining genres. If it must be top-down make it a twinstick shooter instead of a clicker game.

>>383506792
>Victor Vran
that game was utter garbage tho

>>383503123
Everybody played barbarian or sorceress first you nigger

>>383486740
>make it third person
Opinion disregarded.

>>383487460
>Wasn't X just a pointless Y?
Games, in general, are pointless by your definition.

>>383484347
Isn't that what the genre is built on?

>>383484347
Oh look, it's this thread again. The genre is way past its heyday but PoE is still alive after 5+ years and releasing 6 new acts in the next few weeks so it still fills a niche.

What's a diablo mod with lots of end game content that's not Median? I played that enough

>>383503423
>itelebaal10
>nobody teles for 5 minutes amd everyone just leaves and new people come and get confused

>>383484347
you do realize that the vast majority of players never make it to the gear treadmill part of the game, right?
Most people just beat the game once and then forget about it. The gear treadmill part is just an optional extra for the addicted.

>>383507413
maybe Path of DIablo? though that is a very vanilla mod at least it added maps (like in path of exile) so you'll have more variety endgame.

Im also thinking of eastern sun since it was a pretty good mod but honestly cant remember how the endgame was (if you ever care to check it out, the dead links in the wiki and whatnot are still filed in waybackmachine)

>>383507618
I mean end game content like uber quests, at the end of the day you'd be farming maps to farm more maps in PoD, no?
I tried Eastern Sun years ago, I don't remember how it was either

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>>383486740
You have never played a Diablo game in your life. This is the most disgusting, abhorrent post I have ever seen.
OP is a fucking retard. To save Diablo Blizzard just needs to go back to the old ways of Diablo 2. Even then, I don't want them to remake Diablo 2. I love everything about it and I think it's pretty close to a perfect game. The music is amazing, it's still fun to play to this day, the backgrounds are well-crafted and lovely to look at.

>>383506465
It's not exactly a melee focused RPG, I envision it would be about half and half melee and range. Monsters faster than an character in the process of attacking at range, shields, ranged monsters, ambushes/teleporting mobs, terrain making kiting difficult by adding cover or cramped movement, etc.

>sure but it's not commomn to have all these traits in the same rpg.
Like what, normal real-time RPGs don't have stats and skills, melee or ranged combat, monsters, loot, are based on endgame grinding, don't have limited regen? The only dark-soulsy thing is roughly the way melee combat works as in you have different moves, but this is literally the only possible direction to go in if you want to have more than click to attack, it's how real life fighting works. And the level design, which is one of the most iconic parts of dark souls, would be much more like diablo already is, you wouldn't have intricately placed level geometry, drops, and monsters, you'd engage blobs in more randomized and expansive environments (dungeons might be cramped, but they'd still be larger). It just wouldn't be dark souls, at least not like lords of the fallen and bloodborne and shit are blatant dark souls clones.

>>383507901
>>383506465
oh yeah and
>just say that you want a faster Dark Souls like game but with a skill tree and more enemies (which would be a pretty good direction for Diablo to go into).
thanks

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>>383507851

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>>383499771
>Left 4 Dead is first person Diablo with guns in modern times.
Thanks for that anon. That's the most retarded thing I've read all day.

>>383507814
yeah, probably, I dont play D2 anyymore it so I dont know how PoD map bosses are either.

>>383499771
>Baal run341415
>PILLS HERE
yep, checks out

why is titan quest SO FUCKING SLOW

>>383507157
>not choosing the most evil-looking class instantly
you must have been a boring child

>>383485526
/v/ argues that women aren't attractive if they don't have penises.

>>383509980
>>383507157
>>383503123
Nobody picked assassin first because it wasn't in the game
it came with the expansion
so most people first characters were likely barbarian or paladin

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>>383490328
>njaguar made his bot
nigga didn't make shit he stole the majority of the code off other people who were making a project out of it. then tried selling it while keeping all the money to himself.

>>383510480
i'm talking about necro

>>383503839
People still do pindleshenk, but privately

>>383510813
Correct. I still do, love some themed D2 builds for single player.

>>383497238
Yep. It was far more engaging than D2X, which is literally:
>You are an invincible killing machine that spams literally one skill that doesn't engage with the enemies in any meaningful way.
>The only challenge is when you're arbitrarily killed in seconds in a way nobody could possibly forsee.

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>>383511148
>>You are an invincible killing machine that spams literally one skill that doesn't engage with the enemies in any meaningful way.
>spam single skill

>make boring build
>complain that the game is boring

>>383512192
that's literally 90% of the builds
you shouldn't have to gimp yourself just to have fun

>>383512815
why do you look up builds anon? Why don't you make whatever you want to make?
Outside of pvp you don't need cookie cutter builds.

>>383513239
>hmm, I want to be a frost sorceress
>lets put some points into glacial spike here, some points into frozen orb there...
>wait a second, I can only use one of these at a time, I should just put all my points into one damage skill so it deals the most damage
I realized it when I was like ten, it doesn't take looking up builds

>>383513658
If you want to use multiple skills you can make a build that uses multiple skills. If you want to bet it all on a single skill then you only put points on that skill.

When I played sorceress I had fire wall, meteor and fire ball as skills, and switched accordingly.

>>383513943
but there's literally zero fucking point when they all function as main skills, you're only gimping your damage
even if you had one AoE damage and one single target skill you'd usually end up doing more damage by putting all your points in the AoE skill

there's barely any tactical advantages to using either of those when one functions just fine

>>383514108
>literally zero fucking point
different areas of effect, meteor has that annoying delay.

>>383514369
sure, but these are minor differences not outweighed by the damage loss you get by multispeccing

>>383512192
Almost every build devolves to spamming one offensive skill though once it gets rolling, simply because at end game DPS is literally all that matters in speedfarming and making some shit gimmick build is literally just playing retarded on purpose.

Furthermore, mobs in D2X don't require any strategy or thinking once a build starts rolling even if you're going through all the trouble to make some gimped multi-move build.

>>383514546
>the damage loss
Which really doesn't matter at all. I went all the way to hell with shit builds on every class and beat it with no problems (except the first time I was single element sorceress and got fucked up in hell)
you don't need to powergame to beat diablo 2 m8

>>383487808
>It's about addiction

Thanks for summarizing video games as a whole.

>>383486740
>Make it about beating the game

Yeah Diablo 3 did this and it was fucking abysmal.

The treadmill design is just a misunderstanding of what made D2 fun. D2 had specific and obtainable end game gear and it was a treasure hunt. Constantly inflating stats isn't fun.

>>383484347
yeah, Path of Esile is far superior

>>383487680
>Fun pvp

Lol are you shitting me? Getting killed from off screen by an amazon, what riveting pvp.

>>383484347
I want to replay Diablo 2, but i've already beaten the game A LOT of times, even with the meleemancer run.

What mods do you recommend to spice it up? I've played it for more than 15 years already

>>383516553
>Getting killed from off screen by an amazon
Git Gut, think of a better strategy.
>Paladin with charge, Zeal and Bash
>Run like a nigga
>Bash to stunlock other niggas
>Zeal with LS to steal dem niggas life and mana.
>Max res to be a nigga that can stand the elements.
Best build. Too bad pure magic is broken AF.

>>383515516
because it was just terribly designed difficulty
plus it was THREE fucking NG plusses
>>383515283
you don't need to, but it's pointless

>>383499080
Hey anon, I like that list
we can be friends now

>>383484347
if you remove the loot hunt and clickfest combat you have a regular top down rpg game, in which case just play any one of the numerous d&d games. diablolike games are all about the loot hunt and blowing up monsters to find more loot to blow up monsters to find better loot. if you don't like that there's plenty of other games to play.

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>>383484347
The only reason D2 became so popular is online trade + Horadric shenanigans. It was the ultimate skinnerbox simulator when the market was still fresh. Diablo 3 was designed with that in mind but failed spectacularly because it neglected to design builds around loot drops.

PoE is a shit game that took D2 formula and drove it to its logical conclusion.

If you wonder how that genre can be improved, just play Ys games.

>>383498817
>No time spent having fun is a waste of time.
ah, to be young again.

>>383516553

You obviously never got rich as fuck and did competitive low level dueling.

Also, if you were getting killed off-screen by Zons in the later years of the game while doing level 80+ PVP, you were literally shit.

>>383518830
>low level dueling.
What's that? sounds interesting
Also "official" duels a shit.
Players were babby tier and played on nightmare because muh low rez.
High level players should duel on hell difficulty.

One of my fav thing to do like 3 years ago was play lan hardcore coop games with my roommates. Then if one died we would pvp and just restart together after one survived. Good times.

>>383517846
it's not like blowing up monsters has to be shallow, just look at serious sam for example

>>383519374
Well, for one you could make a level 9-12 character easily capable of slaughtering poor level 30+ players. My decked out LLD level 9 would hostile an entire Tal run and clear the entire game.

From a clan standpoint, many duels capped out at level 30. The dueling is far more skill based at this level, restricting teleportation amongst other spam tactics. Generally competitive PK was done between teams, equipped with a mixture of uniques and godly as fuck rares that were among the most expensive items that could be found in the game. Clans still operate and do this but obviously time has worn the game down, and most long-time D2 players (those with an unfathomable amount of currency and forum gold) have gone to PoE.

>>383520332
That sounds fun. Makes me want to buy the game again. I sold m old cds to a botpleb that probably got the account banned

>>383519915
>tfw you will never be 12 again and play through d2 for the first time with your buddies, taking turns and becoming amazed when you reached act 2 took us like a week or something

>>383484347

was already saved by GW1, most people were too dumb to realize the similarity though

>>383484347
Make the combat really flashy and impactful, and the legendary/set gear also flashy with wild gameplay effects.
Plus infinitely deep dungeons.