>TFW a one-level demo looks way more fun and engaging and

>>383158123
But Sonic Forces is still fun regardless. Sega should pick this developer up to develop the 3D Classic Sonic stuff in the future.

>>383158123
The physics are very off and everything is too floaty. Get off his dick, Classicfag.

>>383158123
How the fuck is this engaging, there's literally nothing to fucking do but look around and run in circles. It's a fucking Hot Wheels track. It would be the same if you took Generations Sonic and dropped him in an empty flat box canyon with random loops and ramps placed about. The only thing this demo shows is an interesting momentum concept for a 3D game, but without an actual designed level to show what the gameplay would actually be and what you could expect from it, all this will ever be is a polished tech demo that probably doesn't go anywhere.

>>383158810
This.
the person should design their own game and get a taint tickling by Sega.

>>383158123
How can a level invoke sincerity?

>>383158123
Both look god awful. This game for being a extremely boring uninspired piece of shit, and Forces for having a myriad of bad decisions tacked on to it. However the former is being glorified by easily impressionable, deluded fucking retards that automatically think anything Classic Sonic is the greatest thing ever.

/thread

>>383158810
This. Also the camera is fucking awful.

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>>383158123
>it's another "Everything Classic Sonic is amazing" thread

>>383158236
>Sonic Forces
>Looks fun
Pick one

>>383160292
It does. Modern Sonic anyways. Boost games are fun, the racing controls are cool. The drifting could be better but generally the boost sidestep jump slide drift stuff is enjoyable. I'd like to see a return to a more Adventure style total control with actual 3D platforming, but there's nothing wrong with the boost games.

>>383158810
Yeah the presentation and mechanics are great but its kind of just a sandbox. Green Hill Paradise was way more fun since you had actual objectives and more varied platforming challenges.

>>383161679
Yeah but that game feels like someone shoehorning Sonic into Mario 64 and I don't much care for that either.

>>383158123
>sincere
?

>>383160147
And these people wonder why Sonic Team keeps shoehorning Classic elements into their games.

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>>383158123
And this isn't Utopia's final form either.

>>383163408
They do that because they are trying to please Classicfags who are a bunch of vocal fanboys equivalent to genwunners

That's why we can't get an actual 3D Sonic platformer anymore. Because Classicfags make Sonic Team not want to do it.

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>>383158236
>tfw true 2D Sonic gameplay via based Taxman
>tfw true 3D Sonic gameplay via Utopia's physics with (hopefully) not ebin meme open world sized levels.
>tfw boostshit gameplay can still happen to please the DeviantArtKids while the rest plays the good shit

SEGA is really the right child that died too soon. Come on SEGA you can do what Nintendon't.

>>383164350
>Because Classicfags make Sonic Team not want to do it.
As in you mean, *can't* do it. They TRIED for like 10 years, and fucking failed. The only time they had "3D Sonic physics" was in Adventure/2 and guess what? Fucked it over with Mech shit and Treasure Hunting for Kids and then after, fucked UP the physics AND controls every 3D Sonic game after. They don't fucking know how to make a 3D Sonic game. Even after what was 3D in Unleashed, it was scrapped and forgotten.

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Direct your shitposts at me please.

>>383158810
>It would be the same if you took Generations Sonic and dropped him in an empty flat box canyon with random loops and ramps placed about.
Utopia's engine is much more robust in physics and control, able to handle slopes, walls and loops freely with proper forces in effect. Generations Sonic dropped in the same environment would be crippled. The boost games rely heavily on boosters and scripted sequences to emulate a functioning Sonic, even in its 2d sections. What Utopia shows is that it's possible to create a 3d adaptation of classic Sonic's gameplay, at least fundamentally. The level design is a different matter.

>>383159490
>This game for being a extremely boring uninspired piece of shit
Call it boring but uninspired is not fair. This was inspired deeply by the classics in gameplay and style, it's a very passionate project despite its flaws.

>However the former is being glorified by easily impressionable, deluded fucking retards that automatically think anything Classic Sonic is the greatest thing ever.
It's "glorified" by being an example of classic gameplay and style being adapted to 3d, a feat we haven't really gotten with the official games and has barely been explored in fan works. Maybe you should ask yourself why people like the classics instead of saying they "automatically think they're great" as if no one has any actual reasons for liking them.

>>383161386
>but there's nothing wrong with the boost games
There's a lot wrong with the boost games. Pic related is one example.

>>383165492
Unleashed was barely 3D and still suffers from the same problems as the Adventure games

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>>383166808
>Unleashed was barely 3D
I'm assuming you're not including Werehog, right? Modern Sonic still had less 2D shit than fucking Colors did, there's a reason everyone that played Colors state it's 75% 2D because it is.

And this "problem" isn't exclusive to Unleashed, it's EVERY 3D Sonic game. That's why I stated ST failed at making a 3D Sonic game. Because they either through shit gimmicks with 3D Sonic gameplay or gimmickly "make 3D Sonic gameplay". With Crash does that "3D" better btw.

>>383158810
>The only thing this demo shows is an interesting momentum concept for a 3D game
Yes, and that alone is more engaging than what Forces is bringing to the table.

Your point?

>>383166669
But that is a design of boost games, not a flaw.

>>383167974
>designs can't be flawed
These are video games. Taking away player control for a "TOTALLY RADICAL" setpiece is retarded.

Go watch a fucking movie.

>>383167772
I agree. Only thing Colors had going for it was that it cut out most of the bullshit even if it had some gimmicky acts.

It's kind of sad that the closest we got to 3D Sonic is fucking Lost World.

>>383166669
How do you feel about alternate gameplay styles in the 3D games? Do you think Tails or Knuckles could be made to work well in games like Utopia?

>>383168187
I agree, but don't type like a 14-year-old.

>>383168187
The design is to ensure the player doesn't easily end up off-track.

>>383168308
Shouldn't be hard. Give Tails some limited flight by mashing the jump button, and make Knuckles' jump shorter, give him a limited glide and the ability to climb walls.

>>383168560
Would Knuckles's momentum carry over into his flight? Or, should the flight speed be like in the classic games; dependent on flight time?

>>383168560
Can we let Knux punch stuff?

>>383168449
Then the design is compensation for a shit engine. They should fix the engine before moving forward.

>>383162039
Yeah we all need to just keep on starting our sentences like that.

>>383168187
It is a design necessary for high speed highly complex obstacle courses.
Either you need incredibly forgiving stage design a la Sonic Utopia or you need to help the player not fail.
Every 3D Sonic game has played this balancing act.

>>383168681
If we're limiting his glide, the former. If you're going fast, that glide is going to be faster, taking you further. Same for Tails and his flight, although that would be harder to control. Speed should be made a reward whenever possible.

>>383168754
Nah.

>>383164874
>SEGA is really the right child that died too soon
Why do you insist on forcing this meme?

>>383168187
>I overshoot where I need to land because I am going too fast.
OR
>The game only uses bottomless pits and tricky hazard placement in telegraphed platforming sections

>>383166669
Is Sonic Utopia going to actually be a fangame or are you retooling it to be an original IP? Please say it's the latter.

>>383169842
Sonic. If you don't understand why then you'll never understand the autism of Sonic fans.

>>383170015
This will not end well

>>383170015
It's more because there is no point in making a new IP for a free game because a fangame will generally create a far larger audience.

>>383167974
Either it's a butchered attempt at mimicking the classics, or it's intentional design and by nature worse than the classics. No matter how you slice it, there's something wrong with it, particularly given it is part of the same series.

>>383168308
I have thought a lot about how they would play. It is difficult to figure out a way to keep them from being overpowered. In 2d, the visibility is very limited and it is much easier to limit the playable space, making abilities like flying and gliding of limited utility. In 3d, with easily circumvented terrain and potentially unlimited foresight, the ability to fly could thoroughly break the game. I have been working out a level design scheme specifically to fit default limitations in maneuverability and vise versa, making it especially difficult to grant an ability like flying or gliding that wouldn't reduce the game to a cakewalk. It's understandable why Tails and Knuckles had variant play styles in Adventure, and while the treasure hunting is divisive, it makes a lot of sense and employs Knuckles' abilities as part of the challenge instead of breaking it. Despite all this, I'm still going to try and work out a playable Tails at the least.

>>383169842
Fangame. I want to make this a full game, even if small. But believe me, I have plans for original games, and completing Utopia will go a long way towards that. Our team is learning and improving a lot in the process.

>>383168910
I understand some compromises need to be made but Sonic Team has always gone too far in hand holding the player to the point of laziness.

Maybe we can meet in the middle of "scripted events" and "total control" with a dedicated "lock in" button that allows the player to stay on track in more complex set pieces, while maintaining their momentum naturally and not automatically propelling them forward. Basically, it would work like the 2D games in that the only thing you need to worry about is whether or not you have enough momentum to clear the set piece. The player can let go of the lock in button at any time and it will give the player manual 360 degree control again whenever they want. (You would still fall out of a set piece naturally if you were at an unnatural angle with no momentum, even when holding the lock in button. I'm not proposing Sonic '06 physics here.) This would only work in action set pieces that the player can't reasonably control without a M+KB setup and is completely optional. How you would get across which action set pieces are "lock in"-able to the player is up for debate. Perhaps a simple visual cue in the HUD, or something in the level design itself before you go into the set piece that's not too distracting or immersion breaking. Maybe even an optional button prompt, if you're feeling particularly nasty.

>>383171121
Are you going to let Tails have an offensive capability like the tail whip since he doesn't have a homing attack or is that just going to be the down side of playing as Tails for character balancing purposes? Knuckles at least has his glide which can be used to kill enemies so I guess it's not such a big deal there.

>>383166669
Boost engine isn't TRYING to be a robust physics simulator though, it's unfair to judge those games by metrics they're not trying to meet. You're docking the games points for not doing stuff they never set out to do. If you play a boost game as a boost game, there's nothing wrong with them. If you play a boost game as an attempt to put classic Sonic gameplay in 3D of course you're going to be mad. That doesn't mean the games are inherently flawed though, that's poor logic. The design and challenge of the game is not supposed to be controlling momentum and platforming with extreme speed, it's reaction based dodging and maneuvering with some 2D precision platforming thrown in. You're basically saying Outrun is a bad game because it doesn't handle physics as well as Marble Madness.

>>383171234
This would probably be a little complex to have, not to mention the scripting would be a QA nightmare.

>>383166669
You're not Tpot's "father figure", you're just a pedophile.

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>>383166669
>The boost games rely heavily on boosters and scripted sequences to emulate a functioning Sonic

So did 2d sonic games, I see you didn't fuckin play those dipshit

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>>383174104

>>383166669
>Direct your shitposts at me please.
How the speeds you go at needs to be addressed. You get normal run very easily, while max speed is too hard to obtain 90% of the time so you never think about momentum. There needs to be a middle speed you get after running for say 6-10 seconds, this speed should also help you reach new areas.

Also should have lost worlds parkour, one thing that game got right.

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>>383171121
Hi Lange.
I think playing as Knuckles could be a more challenging but more dynamic experience if you set limits on his abilities. One of his problems with Adventure was that they they gave him abilities designed for a 2D level that were absolutely broken for a 3D space, so ultimately he had to have his own levels to accommodate. Tails in Sonic Adventure wasn't TOO broken though. I think giving Knuckles a limited glide of 3-6 seconds would make him powerful, but not overpowered. Maybe he couldn't climb infinitely either. He should have a lower jump than Sonic and Tails, and maybe even slightly lower running/spindash speeds than Sonic and Tails, not counting gained momentum. I think his glide speed should be dependent on the momentum he's built up, so if he just started walking he won't go far, but if he's built up a lot of speed he should go pretty far. He could slide to a stop on hid belly when he lands, like the originals, or he could roll into it and keep his speed. I can't wait to see more of that original level you've been teasing, the concept art you've shown looks promising.

>>383171121
>It is difficult to figure out a way to keep them from being overpowered.
Who cares? If Knuckles was an unlock after beating the game let him be overpowered and let you do fun ridiculous stuff. Kinda like super sonic

I'd rather have some broken character than a compromise to the main game's design

>>383174462
neither did you apparently

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>>383171234
As I mentioned before, a "lock in" button would be a heavy handed solution, and would take up precious space in the control scheme. I would prefer refining the controls and giving the player more universally applicable abilities, with at most soft guidance mechanisms. As the demo already shows, the more precisely you handle Sonic in complex shapes, the better the results you get, and I consider that a great principle for the gameplay. But I'm well aware that it's very messy and unwieldy in the demo, and needs to be modified to make it work proper for a game.

>>383172221
I have ideas for Tails' abilities but I'd rather not spoil them.

>>383173694
I'm not convinced that the boost games aren't a result of being unable to replicate classic gameplay. The times they do attempt this, they do it terribly. And again, should it be intentional design, it's lousy and does not live up to the classics. Heavy automation, artificial momentum, filler bits like QTEs that don't mesh with the core gameplay, and irrelevant gimmicks stapled onto it are poor game design, and for a game like Sonic it's miserable.
>You're basically saying Outrun is a bad game because it doesn't handle physics as well as Marble Madness.
Those are entirely different series with their own established gameplay. We're discussing Sonic games within the same series. I find it strange that this argument is often used by people who defend the modern games, as if two games in the same series have no reason to be consistent any more than two vastly different games of different genres. It says Sonic on the box, I expect a Sonic game, not an entirely different game each time.

>>383174104
What the fuck are you talking about?

>>383174462
No they don't. Boosters are rare and tend to be stage specific gimmicks, not a common element spammed in every single stage. Core gameplay is left pure most of the time, with any scripted sequences being tied to a specific gimmick such as an elevator or tube.

>>383171121
Why does Sonic need to be like the classics?
They are both good games by their own merits.

3D Mario didn't play like the classics until 3D land and now is going back away from it.

I don't see why boost gameplay is bad because it isn't the classics.

>>383171121
Your game doesn't have a boost and would probably suffer from all of the same problems if it did.

>>383175037
I would imagine in a final product Tails and Knuckles would be available from the start.
Come to think of it, it would be fun to get an infinite glide and climb as Super Knuckles. In a 3D space that alone would make him way more broken. Then for Hyper Knuckles he could have an ever accelerating glide, high jump, and under water breathing.

>>383175349
3D Mario had more depth than 2D Mario, which makes sense because it's a whole new dimension. It was also a faithful implementation of Mario's design principles (run and jump on enemies until you clear the stage), and it was a faithful implementation of 2D Mario's control scheme in Donkey Kong on Gameboy, but given even more depth. It was Mario with more freedom. With 3D, well thought out depth is a very good thing.
3D Sonic has less depth than 2D Sonic. It's much simpler and more limited despite the new dimension. It's not a faithful implementation of Sonic or his design principles (speed is earned, slopes and momentum is key, many ways to play a level). It's fine if you like boost Sonic, I like his stages in generations, but I don't see why you wouldn't want Sonic to transition into 3D for real.

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>>383175235
Lange, what are you planning to do about loops? Because as fun as Utopia is, I think the loops are really shitty to the point where I prefer automated loops in SEGA's games. You see, the 2D games the loops are basically momentum checks. You just need to have enough momentum to get through and that's it. There's no worry about falling off unless you manually jump off them in the middle of the loop. But in Utopia, it's a hassle just trying to stay on them. If your goal is to transfer 2D Sonic mechanics to 3D, then the loops have to be as simple to go through as in the Classic games. Do you have a solution for this? Maybe applying the same mechanic that makes Sonic stick to walls when running on them?

>>383175235
You can't use that argument for the Sonic series though because Sonic IS a different game every time. Sonic has never had one formula or ever a similar formula, the only consistency has been fast. You can say that it's because be they can't recreate the classic games and that's absolutely true, but it's besides the point because they're not making classic games, they're making new games. Feel free to shit on classic Sonic in Generations/Forces all you want because that is them legitimately failing to do that gameplay, but Modern Sonic is not held to those standards because that's not his gameplay and it never was and it was never supposed to be. Classic is different from Adventure is different from Modern is different from Lost World. This is the wrong series of games to say that it should play a certain way because that has actually never been true. If you don't like Modern boost gameplay then whatever that's fair, but it's nonsense to say that Modern fails because it doesn't play like Classic.

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>>383171121
>>383175706
The way I see to deal with Knuckles would be how momentum is handled

Too climb he would need a run up or he would start to slide down, maybe he could get one last jump at the furthest point he was carried. But basically he can't just climb up every wall he walks up to

With Glide have him choose between vertical and horizontal momentum mixed in with the glide falling rapidly. He can either get up high or get across fast but not both. This limits how much he can do. Maybe have it so he could swoop to regain height but this slows him down.

>>383176238
Because you are kind of coming off as though "Boost formula needs to die.", Which I disagree with.

I respect Sonic Utopia as a split in the game design the way Course 3D Mario split from the Sandbox 3D Mario. With the other being the Boost formula.

>>383176564
Make loops gravitate towards the center as long as you have enough momentum? That way as long as you're going fast enough you won't fall off.

>>383176820
>Because you are kind of coming off as though "Boost formula needs to die."
I don't mean to come across that way, I just think "physics/freedom Sonic needs to live" and be adapted for a 3D space.

>>383176817
So have a LW parkour-esque version for the climb?

>>383177172
Kinda, but wasn't LW just jump on any wall and do it? It needs to be that it rewards how much speed you carried into it

>>383164189
I felt this in my butt
Like a floaty nightmare where you jump too high

>>383177050
I agree, I even think it is better game design overall, but I feel Modern Sonic is still enjoyable to play and should stand on its own merits.

>>383176580
>Sonic IS a different game every time
That isn't true, the three notable groups are classic, adventure and boost games. Advanced and Rush are clear groups as well and only then do you have a few dotted around. You can point to additional gimmicks, but that is on top of the same core and sometimes it was just stuff like wisp boost vs just having boost

> not his gameplay and it never was
That isn't true, you see them trying to call back to stuff and either failing or not understanding why something worked

>>383177597
I think so too. It would be nice to have both, and to have a boost Sonic game without 2D segments or gimmicks.

>>383177584
He went as high as would be expected from that speed.

>>383174763
You make a decent point, although the default run speed is relatively slow. You can gain much higher speeds easily by rolling down slopes and maintaining good control. The actual max speed is stupidly high and seldom reachable, and not at all necessary. Just having a somewhat higher speed than default opens up a lot of options through use of slopes. This is why the default run speed is cheap, it does little in the grand scheme and is the bare minimum of mobility, no reason to make it a struggle to achieve.
As for parkour, would be more game breaking in this context, and make the level design even more difficult to figure out. I am considering a narrowed form of it, such as a wall slide and wall jump that would allow reflecting momentum.

>>383174914
All sounds good on paper, but if there's anything I'm used to it's foreseeing how paper translates to practice. It seems obvious that he would need significant limitations to mitigate game breaking, but at what point does he lose the qualities that make Knuckles fun? Same goes for Tails. It's difficult and even with heavy limitations it can be too game breaking; the momentum thing you suggested for his glide for example would still wreak havoc on the level design.

>>383175037
Understandable, but I also want to make this a solid game with any of the staple characters should they be playable, or else it's wasting the game's value (and by extension the characters) and proving nothing.

>>383175349
3d Mario extrapolated the fundamental elements of 2d Mario intelligently. 3d Sonic has not had this same treatment. It has suffered severe reductions of its fundamental qualities with major bugs on top of it.
Classic Sonic games still serve as the most solidly defined form of Sonic. Everything after has been aggressively mutated and butchered and not for the better.

>>383175235
>As I mentioned before, a "lock in" button would be a heavy handed solution, and would take up precious space in the control scheme

Yeah, like I mentioned before it's not the most ideal solution. It's really more of a "we've tried literally everything else" option. Ideally you'd want Sonic to control precisely.

>giving the player more universally applicable abilities

I hope you're not leaning towards making Sonic control like a car because that's pretty heavy handed too. What abilities do you have in mind?

>soft guidance mechanisms

Such as?

>>383177783
I think he's referring to that vertigo-like feeling you get when you jump off a cliff in a dream.

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>>383161386
>Boost is fun.

Maybe for the first two or three times you do a level but after that its a fucking snorefest and the entirety of Modern Sonic gameplay looks super fucking dull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbRyCGNU3A
It could be that its just this first level but it doesn't set a good first impression.

I'll get Mania instead as Sega has said it will determine the Future of the series.

Well, since we're all talking about how much better we know how to make 3D Sonic game.

Honestly, I'd say to take inspiration(rip off) Mario Odyssey and make an updated Sonic Adventure game. Being able to run around on a 3D Plain with tight controls, and if Sonic is going at a particular speed, he can either run up the wall or rebound off it in another direction. Create a setting where once you start up the rebounding process, you get an aiming reticle that will help you angle the rebound. But also make it that more advanced/skilled players can shorten the time on it/turn it off and effectively play without it.

>>383175235
How come you claim you can't program and need some trap to do the work for you, but at the same time are making your own game-making program which is arguably harder to make than a game itself. Are you just taking advantage of people?

>>383164874
Look my man, I enjoy Sega too, but you're saying it took them like 30 games to get the formula right after Adventure 1, meanwhile Nintendo got the formula right at Super Mario 64.

>>383177597
I think the problem with modern sonic is it isn't willing enough to lean into it's strengths and run with them. Boost gameplay is kinda like a racing game so just go for it, make something that complements it rather than throwing in a 2D section cause they feel they have to.

>>383158490
i played it and the physics are actually really well thought out

floaty and challenging are not the same thing silly

>>383177634
I listed the different types of games, dude. No I don't actually mean that every single Sonic release is radically different. My point was that saying Sonic has an established style of gameplay is wrong, bare minimum he has 3 and actually more if you want to get into less popular titles.

Also, calling back to older gameplay is not the same thing as trying to be older gameplay. They were never trying to recreate Classic Sonic gameplay, if they were they would have never done things like double jump and stomp and boosts and airdashing and Wisps and all the other shit they were doing. It was Modern gameplay but 2D.

>>383177932
I pre-ordered Mania and will probably get Forces when the price drops a bit because I like both. Boost is fine. It could be done better and they probably won't do it better but I still enjoy it regardless.

>>383177829
But your game also has very forgiving level design, I don't see how Adventure Era Sonic wouldn't play nearly as well in that world.

>>383177932
>It could be that its just this first level but it doesn't set a good first impression.
I don't know what's wrong with you, but that entire play through looked fun as fuck. Especially by someone who actually knows what they are doing.

If boost gameplay was a snorefest people wouldn't have been asking Sonic Team to stick with the style, or games like Colors, Generations, and Unleashed's daytime stages wouldn't have gotten so much praise.

>>383177936
>Honestly, I'd say to take inspiration(rip off) Mario Odyssey and make an updated Sonic Adventure game. Being able to run around on a 3D Plain with tight controls, and if Sonic is going at a particular speed, he can either run up the wall or rebound off it in another direction
You are literally describing Lost World.

>>383177829
>You can gain much higher speeds easily by rolling down slopes and maintaining good control.
This is something done really well, and I think really it just comes down to having better level design to make it rewarding more often.

Plus I think it just needs a good tutorial, a lot of people don't seem to get sonic physics.

>The actual max speed is stupidly high and seldom reachable, and not at all necessary
Everything about it feels really good though, especially the sound. The want to obtain it will likely effect how some people play just cause it feels good. Have you considered adding a sonic advanced style boost mode making it easier to obtain by collecting rings?

>>383178680
While I'm not going to argue that the gameplay has some merit to it, I think it's also important to remember that 3D boost gameplay got so much praise because Unleashed was hot off the heels of Sonic '06 and people were amazed at a 3D Sonic that functioned at all. I feel like that veneer is starting to wear off with Forces and people are getting a little bored with the style of gameplay. I could be wrong, but I dunno. Forces seems to be questionable overall as of right now but I guess we'll see.

>>383177829
>but at what point does he lose the qualities that make Knuckles fun?
Only when his abilities seem useless. Get them to the point where they work just enough.
>the momentum thing you suggested for his glide for example would still wreak havoc on the level design.
I think it's fair compensation for not having a strong jump or a homing attack (making those assumptions). And again it would only last a few seconds no matter how fast he's going, so you couldn't fly over a whole level with it. Sure he would be able to cheese some sections that would be harder for Sonic, but that's just part of being Knuckles. If you put enough of a lid on him and design levels with his abilities in mind too, it should work fine. Easier said than done, but it can be done.
As for Tails, the way I see it he is easy mode. He's meant to be able to circumvent harder segments with his abilities, he's for the babbies. Even then I would still limit his flight more than the classics or Adventure 1 did, but don't worry too much about him being easy.

>>383158123
I honestly prefer the Unleashed-style Sonic gameplay. I really like the twitchy-ness of it and constantly attempting to get a perfect turn or shortcut to cut down my times is fun.

>>383179473
>I think it's fair compensation for not having a strong jump or a homing attack (making those assumptions). And again it would only last a few seconds no matter how fast he's going, so you couldn't fly over a whole level with it.

Adding to this, you could also just make Knuckles' levels more vertically oriented so gliding doesn't let you cheese things as hard. Knuckles' levels had layouts that better suited him in Sonic 3 too, so it would make sense to carry that over here.

I don't understand how this would be drastically different from just plopping Adventure Sonic with different level design.

>>383178785
>Lost World
>3D Plain

>>383180026
There are 3D sections in Lost World.

>>383166669
I think something should be done with the water stuff. I like the no bottomless pits cause it means exploring doesn't feel too risky but the water stuff is just bland. Something like colors water rocket as at least a move underwater would help stealing the suggestion from the sonic spitball videos

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>>383177829
Will you put Amy in your game somewhere not playable please

>>383180026
The first level is entirely in 3D

>>383180091
>>383180405
Yeah it's corridor 3D, not real open 3D which is what I assume he meant.

>>383179737
I've always thought Sonic was at its best when constructed more like a racing game than anything else; something that lent itself to time trials and individual level scores. Which is basically how it started out.

Then they tried to do Zelda or something.

>>383177829
A competent fan developer admits when an official game simply never intended to replicate the exact same physics that an older and differently styled game has rather than going on some hilarious tirade about how Modern Boost games aren't like the classics when they were never really trying to be except for the Classic Sonic segments.

They're also more enjoyable to play than your tech demo because they actually have a thing called level design.

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>>383180354
If she was playable, how would she even play? People have trouble deciding that even in 2D.

>>383180354
Hey, I'd like a playable Amy

>>383180585
I thought the general consensus on 2D Amy was just replicating the way she played in Advance 1.

>>383179737
This.

Sonic is ultimately about speed and always HAS BEEN about speed, not "muh ultra realistic physics".

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Don't you have anything better to do than defending your project on /v/, of all places?

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>>383180354
>>383180585
I think Amy can work. She'd be good as a casual player character. Have her hammer jumps and expand it like being able to spin it around and then the weight pulls her up and along in a direction. She could be slower but still able to explore so someone shit at the game could still see that stuff

>Lange answering questions on /v/
>The guy behind Green Hill Paradise is a part of /sthg/
Amazing how the people behind the two best Sonic fangames are now on 4chan, all of a sudden.

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>>383180891
He is making a fan game, of course he doesn't, Only those with pure autism powers can manage it

>>383180585
Like Sonic Adventure. Advance Amy is just Adventure Amy in 2D, almost 1:1. I don't care for that, it's tmore trouble than it's worth.
>>383180728
I like her more as a stage element or a cameo character.
>>383180945
But Tails is already the casual choice. The 3 playable character dynamic is ideal (normal- Sonic, easy- Tails, &Knuckles)
I don't think a very low speed character that can't spin dash or roll would be suited for this kind of level design either.

>>383181173
Please don't stroke this guy's ego, he doesn't need your help with that

>>383181173
That's not amazing, that's fucking sad

>>383181264
But I want to, I like the fan game.

>>383181173
4chan has a load of small devs, /agdg/ has gotten two kickstarters funded recently.

>>383180354
I liked playing as Amy. She would have even been fun in Adventure 1 if she was faster.

>>383181415
If she was fast she wouldn't be Amy

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>>383181224
>easy- Tails, &Knuckles
I don't think Knuckles has to be easy, his elements just needed balanced better so he isn't just red sonic that can also fly and climb.

>>383181264
>don't stroke this guy's ego
But the game looks nice, tho..
>>383181491
If Amy can't be fast, then how can she keep up with Sonic then?
>>383181320
Hey, I just think it's amazing that there's still people with talent who bothers visiting this site anymore

>>383181620
I wasn't trying to imply he was easy, he's just &Knuckles.

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>>383176564
See my above post addressing the "lock in" idea.
Part of the problem with the demo is Sonic having too finicky steering control.

>>383176580
>Sonic has been very inconsistent so that makes it okay
The boost games are a manifestation of years of being unable to nail a proper 3d formula for Sonic, which itself is due to not understanding the classics. I'll say again that regardless of intention they end up being weaker games, and I will hold them up to their predecessors because they are part of the same series. They were consistent until 3D Blast which is the exact point the series started going downhill. Pic related. Yasuhara knew what Sega was trying to do and they ended up doing exactly that. It's hardly surprising he left the company in 2002.

>>383178010
>working with others means you're taking advantage of them
I suck at programming, I'm good at everything else. My end is creating content, Murasaki programs the game. This is every game dev team ever. I'm not programming Teal either, Tpot is.

>>383179083
There won't be a boost mode and I'd rather not rings affect any core mechanics (I've seen multiple suggestions of rings increasing Sonic's accel/default speed which would just make gameplay unavoidably inconsistent). However, there will be a sonic boom at high enough speed, which will play into a special feature I'd rather not spoil.

>>383180354
Sorry but it's unlikely, characters are demanding to create and include, and I'm trying to keep things minimal for this project.

>>383180542
A competent developer recognizes good and bad design and articulates it. Saying the games were intentionally different is speculation, so this isn't something that can be "admitted", and I explained how either scenario is a wash regardless. Calling my argument a "hilarious tirade" shows you paid no attention and don't want to think anyway. Or you're just baiting.

>>383181264
My ego is already at maximum, no amount of stroking will change anything, so no worries.

>>383181491
Uhh yes she would be.
Every game after Adventure 1 sped her up, even Adventure 2's battle mode.

She is probably faster than Tails or Knuckles.

>>383181823
That's pretty retarded, glad those games don't matter.

Classicfags are some of the most arrogant and self-centered asshats around. They look down on anything that doesn't match their ideals of what the series "should be", and act as if their opinions are facts. In a sense, they're the polar opposite of the autistic and braindead Modernfags. Both are equally shit.

>>383181801
Your game is essentially Sonic Adventure gameplay with different level design philosophy.

>>383180728
>>383181224
>>383180585
I think Amy could be a hard mode. Since Mania gave Sonic the Drop Dash, Amy's Piko-Piko Hammer could bring back the Insta-shield, being mechanically identical to it, just with a hammer coat of paint. Take away the ability to Spin Dash, force her to curl up into a ball a la Sonic 1. Let her attack with her hammer when trying to Spin Dash instead.

If I'm strong can I fly and reach the other side of the rainbow?

>>383182051
You need to go back and play Sonic Adventure if you think it controls like this.

>>383182050
Irony: the post

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>>383181620
Pretty sure they were implying that &Knuckles was the "hard" mode like in 3&K.
>>383181224
I feel like it could work if someone really want to put in the effort. The could replace the spindash with her pseudo-super peel out from Advance 3 and her roll with a slide. As you said though, it probably wouldn't be worth it in the long run. Having her drive her car like in R could be interesting too, but that leads to a bunch of other shit that would probably need to be worked out.

>>383181801
>ideas guy

gross why the fuck are we talking to you? Get your programmer here.

>>383164350
Except if you weren't underage you would know that the 3d Sonic games were considered failures to live up to the classic games on release and if anything people are much more tolerant now of them than they ever were

If you genuinely think Sonic Adventure or whatever is on part with the original games then you're honestly delusional and I don't even think Adventure etc is bad, though Heroes is when it started really going off the rails

>>383182118
You had ground to air momentum, the only massive change is slope momentum and level design being more forgiving because Classic Sonic didn't have nearly as much air friction.

>>383182050
Honestly, Sonic fans acting like their opinion is the only right one & that all other Sonic games that don't replicate their favorite style is shit is a problem with all sides of the fanbase, not just Classicfags. I enjoy the Classic, Adventure & Boost games equally because I had a fun time with all 3 games equally & don't really care about any game "matching what Sonic should be." Probably helped that the first Sonic game I played was Advance

>>383182050
You naturally call people out on shit taste

It's the same way as people who would say the later Deus Ex games are better than the original. It's an opinion but it's fucking stupid.

>>383182050
They have a point. The problem is they act as though Modern Sonic existing is a plague.

They want to have their cake and then throw everyone else's cake in the trash because they hate the flavor.

>>383181801
Boost is fine even if it isn't the same as Classic.

>>383182404
>3d Sonic games were considered failures to live up to the classic games on release
No they weren't. There's a reason why they are best sellers on the Dreamcast, Gamecube, and PC.

Talking out of your ass here anon and I'm not taking your shit.

People needs to drop the "Sonic needs to go SUPAH BAJILLION MPH FAST!!" meme. He wasn't boost-tier fast in the classics, and all it does it make the levels fuckoff gigantic, as seen in OP's tech demo.

>>383182459
>acting like their opinion is the only right one
That's why it's an opinion. If you're going to be the kind of pussy that acts like your opinion doesn't matter then there's no point in talking about anything with anyone. Be willing to have a discussion or go away.

>>383182690
They were best sellers but it was commonly accepted that Mario transitioned to 3D well while Sonic floundered, and it obviously got worse as it went on.

>>383182601
It's not even like all Classicfags are united either. There are differing opinions on whether S3&K or CD is better, and the most vocal among them will shitfling at teach other all day and night.

Then again, the same is true for Adventurefags and Modernfags. Frankly, it's bizarre how insanely divisive this fanbase is, to the point where even the divisions have divisions.

>>383182694
>He wasn't boost-tier fast in the classics
Because he was fat and had stubby legs

Sonic's canon lore is that he's faster than the speed of sound. Boost gameplay is a depiction of that.

>>383182791
It isn't really.
The problem is that SEGA doesn't embrace the divisions the way Nintendo does with Mario.

>>383182690
>Games selling well means it was well received and considered good
Sonic games always sell no matter how shit they are, it's a trait of Sonic games. Especially on a Sega console. Even the greatest abortions that everyone agrees were fucking terrible sold well.

>>383182852
gameplay comes before lore

>>383180860
Basically yeah. Unleashed-style gameplay to me seems like the truest transition to 3D for Sonic I have seen.

>>383182694
People saying that shit is the easiest way to tell that their main experience with 'classic sonic' is Sonic Advance or some shit

>>383182751
Look, simply having an opinion doesn't justify being a cunt about it. You can have a discussion about what style of Sonic games you prefer without being obnoxious.

>>383183008
Wasn't Lost World's sales only mediocre?

>>383182459
>>383183145
My only concern with the multiple game kinds is that it needs to be done well. I think Modern Seaside Hill and Modern Sky Sanctuary showed that Boost has intentional, with multiple paths, lots of exploration, and even a higher route to stay on, kinda like in the classics. Unfortunately, Sega themselves seems to have fallen for the 'Sonic's shitty friends' meme, since Sonic himself now gets unrelated games shoved onto him. There's also the sheer amount of automation the 3D games still suffer from, and the need to use 2D as a crutch.
>>383182791
That's what happens when everyone has a different opinion. But the real issue is>>383182936 Sega just ignores the different groups instead of having multiple games switch between one another, which Mania and Forces will hopefully begin.
>>383183008
My cousin has a copy of the 360 version of 06, and it says Platinum Hits. That game sold well enough to get that honor, and I think the PS3 version got it's equivalent.

>>383181801
>The boost games are a manifestation of years of being unable to nail a proper 3d formula for Sonic
That's your opinion and you're free to have it, but you are not the arbiter of the Sonic series and your word is not law. I don't agree with you. I think Adventure and Boost games are both fine because they work under their own rules. They're not trying to be Classic Sonic. You calling it a misunderstanding doesn't make that reality. They have a different design, a different concept, a different goal to the Classic games. No matter how hard you stomp your feet and whine about it, Sonic does not have one established style of gameplay. You're just wrong.

>>383183145
>implying Advance will let you go that fast with it's tiny screen and level design post Angel Island

>>383182936
Well they can't. If you try to please everyone, you can't really please anyone. You can't please the S3fags, the CDfags, the SA1fags, the SA2fags, the Unleashedfags, the Generationsfags, the Colorsfags, the comicfags and cartoonfags all at the same time. You need to pick a direction and follow it.

Mario isn't as divisive as Sonic is. And, honestly, Mario is part of the reason things are so fucked for Sonic to begin with. Frankly, Mario has the market cornered when it comes to 2D and 3D platformers. Sonic Team's been struggling with Sonic's identity for many years. There's also the different expectations of video games as opposed to how they were in the Genesis era. A 2 hour game really isn't gonna cut it anymore.

>>383180860
>>383183136
Basically no, it's complete nonsense. Try blindly running around in Sonic 1 and see how far you get. There are definitely sections in 2 and 3 which are set pieces you go quickly in, but otherwise they're a platformer and the fast memeing is limited to the modern games.

>>383183245
>intentional
*potential.

>>383178785
Lost World had you going forward on a 3D/Spiral Frame. Basically, you're switching lanes.

Imagine the gameplay in the video in the OP but inside of a gigantic city. If you've got Sonic running at top speed. If you're not going fast enough, he'll just run next to them.

After that, he can run up the buildings, and jump off of them to another one, and skilled players can transverse levels as quickly as possible by leaping from high point to high point, and the game makers can address this by adding higher planes for people to run on or place enemies at particular points to attack you.

The idea of the aiming/reticle +adjustable slow down is so less skilled causal/players can actually get up to those points, and nobody can blame that game for being uncontrollable

>>383183268
1 is kind of classic sonic in its pace but 2 and 3 are literally all about going fast at the cost of basically everything else and have little in common with the genesis games

>>383183178
>explaining your position in-depth and going into detail about why you the opposing viewpoint is wrong is "being a cunt" and "obnoxious"
I'm never the one to say this, but you might actually want to go try reddit.

>>383158123
But it's not fun at all.
It's a good proof of concept regarding to the physics but it's not fun at all.

>>383183306
One of the fundamental aspects of Sonic has always been to go from Point A to Point B as fast as possible. Players have always been encouraged to try to beat their times in these games. Slow that as few as possible, try to maintain max momentum. Stage memorization has been a key to that since day 1. The original concept for Sonic was even inspired by Naka's attempts to complete Super Mario's World 1 as fast as he could over and over.

Keep making 3D games that expand upon Generation's branching paths and actual platforming (while actually fixing the fucked 2D sections) also bring back Chao Garden, and keep Taxman on the 2D Sonic games.

Boom. I fixed Sonic. Pay me.

>>383183629
So they should have Crash Bandicoot's time trials.

>>383182293
an ideaguy wouldn't be able to explain in autistic detail every single nuance of physics of their planned game, including the design philosophy behind it

>>383182772
Okay now you are moving the goalpost because we weren't talking about Mario, nor was he even mentioned.

Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are by far the Sonic games with the least amount of automation and the best formula when it comes to 3D Sonic gameplay. Sonic always starts off at a slow jog and then gradually speeds up. He doesn't start off with almost immediate high speeds like in the Boost formula games. And that kind of gradual speed increase worked. The problem was the poor camera and level design that didn't take full advantage. City Escape is praised so much because it is by far the best example of why 3D Sonic can work and Generations did an amazing job of recreating that but with Boost formula.

If Sonic Team used Generation's City Escape as a setpiece for the rest of their levels in whatever Modern Sonic games they make from here on out, then they'll have something great.

Also, bring back the parkour elements.
That's what really can bring some more life into Modern Sonic level design.

>>383181801
>and I explained how either scenario is a wash regardless

No, you just went on some tirade about how it doesn't perfectly replicate the physics even though it wasn't trying to. You're getting overly caught up on specific aspects instead of actually articulating what the overall point of the game was.

>>383183629
A selling point of old Sonic games was that you could go fast at points, but not in the same way the modern games do where the whole game revolves around it. The old games had tunnel sections where you'd fly around at high speed for a bit or run across water fast after a booster or whatever, which was cool but weren't really a core part of the gameplay, you'd usually go back to pretty normal but faster paced and more freeform platforming pretty quickly, which was why it was good, not because of retards going OMG SO FAST.

As I said in a previous post, you can see the difference if you compare the classics, where the speed was just a part of the game, to the advance/boost games where it basically becomes the whole point.

>>383183245
The problem is SEGA sort of gets an idea and then drops it after 1-2 games.

>>383183295
Part of it is because Mario also makes better use of its cast, SEGA was on the right track, but I think shoving it all into one game is a problem. They could even do this instead of reinventing Sonic or having dish out each Sonic style.

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>>383158810
It had plenty of obstacles and environments in it for one.The physics were good and the audio was comfy and immersive.

However, the point of the demo was to show the game and engine's potential, and it did that excellently. It was great, but needs to be made into a complete game with an actual ending to levels or a free roam mode with collectables and whatnot.

>>383183512
>explaining your position in-depth and going into detail about why you the opposing viewpoint is wrong is "being a cunt" and "obnoxious."
I don't have a problem with people who explain their points in detail. The ones I'm referring too as being "cunts" & "obnoxious" are the types who don't care about having an actual discussion & are more interested in calling the side that likes the style they don't "cucks" & how they're cancer that's killing the franchise, and other shit like that. Rationally explaining your argument and trying to give your viewpoint on why you prefer a certain style is fine.

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Discuss

>>383183919
I would bet money you were a kid when the adventure games came out.

Adventure games have the least automation, when the first stage of both games literally have like three set pieces where it is impossible to die unless you literally run backwards each and you just hold forward? Really?

>>383183967
That's true. It doesn't help that what they do end up keeping is the shit that needed to be left out as the games try to improve on the last. The bad ideas overstay their welcome and get worse execution.

>>383183937
Sonic is based pretty much around speed runs. There are parts where you might have to slow down, but the main point was always to minimize slowing or stopping as much as possible. If you know that you're about to reach a point that's going to interrupt your momentum, try to think of a way to circumvent it, get around it, or limit how much time you stay there. The point was always to reach the end as fast as possible. There were obstacles to that, but the point of obstacles it to get around them.

>>383184093
Stealth is a furry?

Sonuc World is better.

>>383184093
Always bet on the autism

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>>383184093
>furry sonicfag
???

>>383184093
Of course it's an aussie.

Also every little detail in Mania is weaponized autism and I love it.

>>383184062
I wouldn't say being an asshole matters at all if they're rationally explaining their point too.

Why the fuck does Sonic always go all or nothing with the support cast? Say what you want about Mario, but at least those games know that it's okay to include Luigi while leaving Yoshi out or vice versa

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>>383184140
>Adventure games have the least automation

>jump over a boost pad placed in a straight line
>the game auto-boosts me forward a few feet away from the boost pad
>since I wasn't facing EXACTLY the way the boost pad was supposed to align me, it makes me fly into a wall, clipping me into the ground and making me fall to my death
Quality game design

>>383182694
Well, the thing is, by Sonic CD/Sonic 2, they allowed the concept of allowing you to build up speed with the Super Peel Out/Spindash.

Sonic started off as a platformer, with emphasis on speed. But as with anything, too much speed means it's going to be harder to control. Sonic was created in mind to have stages that you can go fast as you want in, BUT ONLY if you can handle it.

Go too fast in Chemical Plant Act 2, and you'll be drowning in purple shit. Go too fast in Aquatic Ruin and you'll end up at in the water, instead of taking the upper route that has no water at all. Go too fast in Metropolis Zone, and get punched in the dick by Shellcracker.

A good Sonic game will always give you the option to go fast as you want, but AS LONG as you can handle it. The Mach Speed Zones were terrible for this, because they're built around going fast on a track and Sonic can hardly be controlled. The Boost is effectively a new application of the Spindash, but with much more control behind it.
>>383182791
That's probably the hardest part of making a new Sonic game. There's just no pleasing EVERYONE. The demo looks great to me, but I'm not seeing how much better than it is than the Boost games. Were the the obstacles?? Is it just going to be one big plain? How's the game going to control when you have to actually do some platforming?

>>383184174
>>383184296
>ITT: People who never lived through the shazbowl

>>383184296
>>383184174
Stealth's original logo featured his fursona's (or fancharacter, whatever) head, instead of the current, human one.

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>>383184353
Why doesn't Mario hang out with Lemmy anymore?

>>383184365
You probably didn't read my whole post but I think we don't actually disagree

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>>383183295
I would have agreed with you, until mania. As many as you can get seem happy about that game

Sonic going back to it's roots by people who know what they are doing seems to just please people. I think it just gets the personality right, partly helped by Tyson Hesse animation in the trailer

>>383184151
I think there is also a problem with people wanting Tails, Knuckles, and Amy to be present but to also play very different from Sonic, which practically asks for greatly different games.

Rather than trying to shoehorn all these ideas in one game or create a Sonic that can handle all of these things, it would be better if SEGA created entire games focused on these gameplay styles.

Try this: Imagine a 3D platformer game with Amy as the central protagonist and playable character. I predict if you do this that you will end up with a game far more solid and satisfying than her previous appearances. I also firmly believe you will be able to incorporate certain gameplay elements better with Amy than you could with Sonic.

>>383183937
The whole game SHOULD revolve around it, to be frank. Any Sonic stage that intentionally slows you down without any way to maintain your momentum using sufficiently precise timing and inputs is a failure on a conceptual level.

>>383184398
>Is it just going to be one big plain?
The demo is just a glorified test level that allows people to play around with Sonic's movement mechanics. It's not fully representative of the final project's level design.

I don't understand why this keeps needing to be said.

>>383184365
You're blaming the level design for the game's technical flaws. You are a huge faggot.

>>383184605
Don't count your chickens 'till they hatch. These guys are about a decade left to the whole "nostalgia" trend. I wouldn't expect Sonic Mania to be some kinda ten million sales bestseller.

>>383184168
>The point was always to reach the end as fast as possible.
\No it wasn't, speed was just a tool for you to get around and find new areas. The old games didn't even have rankings, it didn't matter how fast you got to the end it was how you can get to the end.

>>383158123
>sincere
What the fuck does that even mean?

>>383182051
>>383182412
Utopia's control and physics are far more clean, consistent, and free of the major bugs that Adventure had. Mechanics of the 2d games that never made it to 3d, such as translating vertical speed from the air onto slopes, are present in Utopia. Granted, you can tell Adventure was seeking to achieve this, as the original developers were present and had created test geometry and prototype levels that were designed for a proper 3d translation of 2d Sonic. The game was significantly cut down from this, being unfinished and buggy, time and technical limitations are certainly a culprit (Utopia does take advantage of advanced tech that did not exist back then), not to mention having to split focus on alternate play styles. As such the levels became more linear and chock full of boosters and scripted sequences. One would think that they would take the opportunity to achieve what they couldn't do in the first 3d game, but they did the opposite and focused even more on linearity and automation. It was after all, much easier to achieve and it sold. Which brings me to the next point. tbc

Boost is still salvageable. Make it a reward rather than the core gameplay. Reduce its usage to short spurts. It should be Sonic's best acceleration move, having the advantages of the Spin Dash with none of the weaknesses; in exchange, it's something that you earn by playing well rather than something that's just given to you. The Boost should be something which, if used at just the right moment, allows the player to greatly minimize the amount of time they take. In a sense, it should be like a power-up, like Shields or Speed Shoes, that the player can choose to utilize at will.

If the player plays poorly or mismanages usage of the Boost meter, they're left with lesser moves like the Spin Dash. The Spin Dash allows for acceleration, but it requires the player to stand still and charge it up, and it doesn't allow for constant locomotion since Sonic can't directly control his speed in ball form. The main point of managing the usage of the Boost Meter is knowing when to spend it and when not to. When going down a hill, it may be better to allow Sonic to just spin and pick up momentum.

If used correctly with significant skill, the Boost should be something that allows the player to reach the goal quickly and efficiently, allowing them blistering amounts of speed should they use it right, rather than something that's just given to them.

>>383184959
Probably inferring that Utopia feels like it has more passion involved in its development than Forces.

>>383185075
That's pretty much Sonic Colours and to a lesser degree Sonic Forces.

>>383184726
Honestly I have to agree with this. I actually enjoyed Eggman's mech stages in SA2, and would love for that to get it's own game. But I would have preferred the Adventure games to just be Sonic/Shadow/and even SA1 Tails, since I think that's the closest the 3D games have gotten to implementing multiple characters with different abilities, but is still one core game instead of completely different.

>>383183306
>Try blindly running around in Sonic 1 and see how far you get.

You'd get nowhere, same as in Unleashed. Not really sure what point you're trying to make here.

>>383185197
Sonic Colors went too far. Boost was Sonic's ONLY real acceleration move, but it was far too rare a commodity and there were very clear parts where it was meant to be used.

>>383185273
>same as in Unleashed

HA

>>383185197
Colors still hid behind 2D sections and the Wisps.

>>383185075
>Reduce its usage to short spurts. It should be Sonic's best acceleration move, having the advantages of the Spin Dash with none of the weaknesses; in exchange, it's something that you earn by playing well rather than something that's just given to you. The Boost should be something which, if used at just the right moment, allows the player to greatly minimize the amount of time they take. In a sense, it should be like a power-up, like Shields or Speed Shoes, that the player can choose to utilize at will.
So basically give modern Sonic the drop dash ability. I can dig it.

>>383185209
I think the gameplay was shallow but fun, but if an entire game needed to be focused around it, I think it would be better.

I loved Generations, but I think Forces looks like shit.

Can anyone explain why? I can't even tell what about it looks worse

Out of curiosity how would you have Tails and Amy play in the Modern formula?

>>383185025
God, you sound like all those other self-absorbed indie devs. "Modern devs don't know how to do it right. Only WE know how to do it right. We know what the true essence of games are. Modern devs are stupid, incompetent and objectively inferior to us."

>>383183919
This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCs42XSwI-c

This level is 3D Sonic in its almost perfect form

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPtTwwMzHhk

This. This right here is Modern Sonic in its full glory. The level is big and sprawling with multiple paths like Adventure 1/2 but this time they are every fucking where. There is automation but not so much where it is forced upon you. Sonic can go fast without bumping into walls and having all his speed shutdown immediately. There are gimmicks included that are actually fun and take advantage of Sonic's abilities and/or personality. And finally there is a good mix of 3D and 2D without there being too much of either. This is one of the best designed Modern Sonic levels in the past 20 years.

>>383185427
Yeah I was trying to say that but forgot to actually do so. I blame the heat wave.
>>383185515
Art style is more like Lost Worlds, returning stages don't look as good as in Generations because of this, and Classic's Green Hill is shit-tier compared to the Green Hill in Generations. The only real improvement I've seen is the Boost meter running out sooner, and Classic doesn't have a broken Spin Dash like in Gens.

>>383185075
Sonic Forces might actually achieve that, or something closer to it at least.

The problem is that it's only going to be 1/3rd of the game.

>>383185532
I agree with this, and it upsets me that his goal going beyond "Let's show SEGA how to make classic Sonic work in 3D" to "This is the only way you can make Sonic work in 3D."

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>wow guys look at this 3d sonic game that is most definetly not a glorified engine test

>meanwhile

>>383158123
>All this time spent on a fangame that will be C&D'd
>Not using this time to create an original ip and release it via Steam

>>383185526
vr sex mode.

>>383185376
I'm starting to believe that you never actually played Unleashed. The Day levels consist of a shit ton of breakneck turns and obstacles that impede your progress; you'd need to have the level effectively memorized in order to be able to get through the level at a decent pace.

It may not have the physics-based stuff that the old games had, but that was never the point. Both games had speed and momentum as the fundamental aspects of the gameplay, albeit different ways of achieving and maintaining that momentum. While I loved the physics in the classic games, it honestly does not look fun translated to 3D. That's why I think Unleashed gameplay was the best way to translate the core aspects of Sonic's classic gameplay into 3D.

>>383185883
SEGA only C&Ds fangames that are profiting directly from it.

>>383184481
this

>>383185883
This is what I don't get about fan games. There's countless examples of C&Ds but even if there weren't it's pretty obvious somebody is going to get pissed that their ip is being used without their permission. Literally all that needs done is to change the ip to something original while keeping most of the gameplay, hell Shadow of Mordor did this and was very successful.

>>383185661
I'd argue there are better levels than City Escape in Generations, at least in exploration for Seaside Hill, and a higher route with Sky Sanctuary.

>>383185883
The real endgame is probably to pull a Taxman, but in 3D.

>>383185532
>>383185807
Does it matter? You sound like tumblr with your "tone policing" bullshit. Sure being humble is more attractive but as long as he's making a good game then it doesn't matter what his motivations or attitude are.

>>383185526
Funnily enough, in Modern games, flight actually wouldn't be that broken at all. The stages are huge, so a short flight mechanic wouldn't break the game. If anything, flight would still be inferior to Boost. Tails could work by making it so that, by using his flight at certain specific points, he can pass by fairly large sections of the stage, skipping them outright. Because flight is slower than Boost, misjudging when to fly could cost you a lot of time. In a sense, it would be a little like how he plays in SA1, where the point is to beat Sonic in a race. Tails can't hope to beat Sonic in a straight race, so he has to figure out how to skip as much of the stage as possible.

Tails would also be far better at finding hidden goodies like Red Rings than Sonic is, because Sonic often has few opportunities for backtracking in these games. Furthermore, at lot of the time, if you fail to reach a certain route, that route is closed off from you for the rest of the stage. Physical obstacles would be less of an issue for Tails, since he can just fly over them.

Tails could also have a couple other convenient tools. For instance, Sonic needs to be moving at top speed in order to run across water. Tails could have an easier time with it thanks to his tails, allowing Tails to move across water easily just by having a minimum amount of speed.

>>383185845
SRB2 will always be a prime example of why Sonic needs a homing attack in 3D.

There is almost no point in attacking enemies in that game. Considering how fast you run, jumping on them or or setting up a spindash just slows down the pace of the game to the point where most speedrunners just choose to ignore them instead,

>>383185959
>Both games had speed and momentum as the fundamental aspects of the gameplay

The classics had well designed platforming and momentum as it's fundamentals. Unleashed is just "what of a car that could go 0-5,000,000 in 0 seconds drove in a straight line"

>>383185845
fuck off shill

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I mean even if you don't want to create different Sonic games, you can take what people like and apply it to different characters.

Again, maybe if SEGA tried to make Amy or Tails work in the same Modern Sonic framework (or even stages) it might make a better experience.

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>All these people defending the boost formula and modern sonic games
The boost in modern sonic is fucking garbage, compare Sonic Advance 2 to Sonic Rush, the former is much better to play and you actually feel rewarded for maintaining enough speed to enter boost mode with level design that encourages it.

>>383185883
>sonic fangames
>getting C&D'd
lol

>>383185845
wasn't it admittedly a test engine for feedback/PoC? also;
>pic
how's RB2 doing anyway?

>>383185376
He's right though. "Boost to win" was nothing more than a meme and if you actually tried that shit in the daytime stages you'd get absolutely nowhere.

>>383185025

>>383182050
>>383182601
>>383182681
>>383183253
>>383185532
Recognizing an objective quality in something and making an argument for it =/= arrogant elitism. Reactions like this are petty attacks in lieu of argument. Convince by argument, and if you can't, don't assume it's because of arrogance or some shit. It probably means the other party has good reason to believe what they do and has not been presented with an argument they don't consider substantial enough to change that belief, at least that's how it is with me.

One huge problem with these debates is conflating an argument against boost games as saying you're not allowed to enjoy them, or that they shouldn't exist. Enjoy them, there are qualities about them to be enjoyed. But it's important to recognize where they come from, their theoretical and objective flaws, particularly in the context of their predecessors. If you analyze the games and connect the dots, there are clear lines that show they progressively forgot more and more of the fundamentals and could no longer achieve them, and turned to alternatives as a substitute. The problem with these alternatives is they don't come from a place of understanding and rely on superficial attributes of previous games, so even if intentional, there's a lot of incoherence and a lot missing in comparison.
I would be fine with different Sonic games existing in parallel to suite preferences.

Another huge problem is this:
>analysis of the games and explaining in detail how modern games are confused and mechanically lacking
>"just because they're different from the classics doesn't mean they're worse"
Every argument gets turned into this for some reason. It's like the latter person pays no attention to the argument, automatically assumes it's a matter of "I don't like it because it's different" and responds according to this presumption. Many of us are not disliking the modern games for being "different". We're disliking them for being worse in many ways.

>>383186372
Thanks, though I don't think he should get the flying speed powerup or have the boost rings. They made his mode braindead in Sonic Adventure.

>>383185883
>All this time spent on a fangame that will be C&D'd
Sega has always been lax on fan-created Sonic content. Hell, they've openly supported hacks of the genesis games on the Steam workshop.

>>383186625
The problem is probably your tone and phrasing. It's easy to see why people think you're being egotistical from the way you talk. Your phrasing often makes it look like you're actually looking down on Sonic Team.

>>383186872
Irrelevant
>>>/tumblr/

>>383182050
Careful with the generalizations, I'm a Classicfag and I happen to love the boost games because unlike pretentious cunts like Lange, I understand what they were trying to achieve and believe they succeeded.

>>383185526
Amy would be a lot harder though. Being able to jump higher with her hammer wouldn't be that valuable in a modern Sonic game, where vertical acceleration isn't really all that necessary.

>>383186872
>Your phrasing often makes it look like you're actually looking down on Sonic Team.
Can you really blame him? Most people feel the same way.

>>383186402
Again, you keep demonstrating that you've never actually played Unleashed, so I'm really starting to question why you even bother replying if you don't know what you're talking about.

Sonic's game was speed and momentum, and it has always been those. Classic stages practically begged to be repeated to memorize all the shortcuts and obstacles so that you could get through the level losing as little momentum as possible.

Unleashed follows these tenets almost exactly. The game may forgo the physics elements that classic Sonic had, but it still wants and encourages you to replay stages so that you can potentially maintain boost for longer or shave time with a new shortcut that you've discovered. It's the best gameplay Sonic has seen in 3D.

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>>383186872
More like those people are upset that they were proven wrong and lost an internet argument so they have to attack with an ad hominem.

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>it's a Sonic discussion that devolves into butthurt-driven personal attacks and meaningless rhetoric episode

I blame Iizuka, personally.

>>383186315
Seaside Hill is the best level in Generations and the best Sonic stage Sonic Team has ever designed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFlG_qS614A

Checkmate Classicfags.

>>383187150
I think for Amy one advantage is that you can build her as a more platforming centric Sonic. She is Sonic without the "Gotta Go Fast" stigma attached to her.
Maybe she can have Classic Sonic's ground and air friction, so she is better for tricky platforming.

>>383186625
You're saying they're worse because they aren't adhering to standards that you personally set that the series isn't trying to go for. You're saying they're worse because they fail to match Classic Sonic when they were never trying to be Classic Sonic and we're always going a different direction. You've got nothing to support your arguments other than baseless speculation built on who was at Sega at what time which must mean they had XYZ goals/opinions/direction. The flaws you are seeing are not objective and you have made no solid argument for theoretical flaws other than "Classic games did X but modern games do Y therefore flaw" which has been explained to you to be horrendous logic. You are conflating elements being similar to classic games to them attempting to do them exactly how the classic games did them, which you cannot and could not ever prove with actual evidence, merely just speculation because on paper they are similar but one is done in a style you like while another is done in a style you don't like. Modern games have flaws sure, but you're failing to bring up any that are valid with regards to what the games are trying to do. The flaws you're presenting would dramatically change the style, design, and concept of what modern games are trying to achieve. That's why these arguments keep "turning into" the same end results, because in reality that's what you're arguing for. You're not saying that boost games should be fixed, you're saying that boost games should be turned into something entirely different because it fits more into the purview of what you personally feel the Sonic series should be, and people are arguing with you because they don't agree with that logic.

>>383186402
>The classics had well designed platforming and momentum as it's fundamentals
Tell that to all the speedrunners who just spam the Spin Dash to clear the stages without going through all the bullshit you are talking about.

> "what of a car that could go 0-5,000,000 in 0 seconds drove in a straight line"
This goes for the Adventure games too. And how you may ask? Well the OP Spin Dash of course.

>>383187765
>Checkmate Classicfags.
But Seaside Hill's vertically layered level design is an attempt at emulating similar concepts used in the level design of the classic games. If anything, Classicfags and people with taste would agree with you that it's one of the best designed Sonic levels in recent times.

>>383187765
I think the best level in all of 3D Sonic is Final Rush, but the level you posted a vid of is easily peak Boost. A shame Sonic Team decided to scrap it for Lost World.

>>383187979
Fucking this.

Checkmate, Classicfags.

>>383188132
Yeah I'm a Classicfag but think it and Sky Sanctuary was faithful to how levels are made in the Classic games, but with Boost instead.

>>383187765
>there's like 5000 alternate paths in this one level

How did Iizuka do it?

>>383187816
There is no tricky platforming in modern Sonic games. Also, the stomp addresses some of Sonic's momentum issues in that it gives Sonic a quick, effective way to immediately dash downwards with good accuracy. In fact, many of Sonic's periphery abilities in modern Sonic games are designed to address the flaws in Sonic's physics. The homing attack, stomp, quick-step are all designed with accuracy and immediate movement in mind.

>>383187765
Not really, it is still full of set pieces and the exploration isn't about carrying momentum and/or exploring but knowing there is a ring that will boost you up to the better path

>>383186625
Fuck off. Go back to /r/atheism where self-absorbed asshats like you belong. Your team of you, some tranny, and an underage leaf who you supply porn to will never surpass a triple-A studio no matter how hard you try to sound smart. No one cares if you "get Sonic" and it will never get you anywhere in life. It's why you're nearly 30 and are still a kissless virgin.

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>>383188608
>predictable ad hominem rebuttal
Yawn.

>>383188884
Lange we know it's you, go back to using your trip you mondo faggot.

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>>383187979

>>383187765
The special missions also had very fun level design
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep7IEpEXwGo

Really, besides Classic Sonic's physics that were made from scratch again, Sonic Team really had it right with Generations. Why Lost World happened is any man's guess but Generations was an almost perfect 3D Sonic game.

>>383187979
Holy shit, this a million times.

Lange BTFO.

>>383187979
The irony of you doing exactly what he said is killing me. Your post is a complete and utter strawman. He's made multiple arguments that the boost/modern formula are bad on their own merits completely independent from the classic games. Even if the classic games never existed the boost mechanic in conjunction with modern sonic level design is simply bad.

>>383188561
And then there's this faggot.

Green Hill Zone for-fucking-ever, nostalgia fag.

>inb4 sega stealth kills the project by hiring the dev

>>383187765
>Miss one thing and have to replay the entire level because you can't go back
How is this acceptable in like every stage in generations?

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>>383187979
Nice

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>>383188983
Go act like a 17 year old somewhere else. There might be a console war thread up that you can entertain yourself with.

>>383189267
You mean the checkpoint?

>>383189267
>Miss one thing and have to replay the entire game because you can't go back
How is this acceptable in like every Classic era game?

>>383189105
>He's made multiple arguments that the boost/modern formula are bad on their own merits completely independent from the classic games

Name just ONE argument he made that didn't immediately appeal to Classic's physics or some similar comparison.

>>383187979
lagne BTFO forever and ever how will he ever recover
btw ignore lange no trip he butthurt he got btfo so hard and has no sensible arguments whatsoever no at all >>383189105

>>383186625
Based.
In each of the classic Sonic games, every new level had their own badniks, and some badniks appeared in 2 zones, they're always game exclusive with a couple exceptions of enemies being totally re-purposed, and Newtron. Are you guys making all new badniks and animals for your new stages? From the game design perspective, Badniks are a very important and often under-emphasized part of level design, and I think making them work in 3D should be one of the top priorities. You can't just make a few generic enemies and sprinkle them around haphazardly. Your game is a good opportunity as any to make badniks designed around a 3D space that aren't Crash Bandicoot corridors.

>>383188496
You could throw in tricky platforming in a modern Sonic game then.

I honestly believe the 3D Sonic games will get way better as soon as they stop using 2D as a crutch and start really putting their efforts into polishing the 3D gameplay.

Now, if they want to keep making 2D games like Mania, then by all means they should, but they should leave the 2D there.

>>383189139
He's not wrong, but it's still the best designed modern Sonic level despite its flaws.

Says more about the common level design concepts utilized in modern Sonic Team games than anything else.

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>this whole thread
show me a more passionate and autistic fanbase

>>383189701
I dunno, GR15?

>>383189368
Lol real funny for you to say that Lange, because your "apprentice" Tpot is exactly that age and yet you let him have access to the porn room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKtH1fuCzQA

>>383189807
What state is that in?

>>383189584
The problem with the games is that they're fundamentally built with Sonic in mind. Which I think is actually one of the few objectively good design choices. A stage layout should be focused. Not necessarily linear, but you should have a certain goal in mind when designing it. If you make a stage designed to cater to so many different types of characters, you get Mega Man X8 which, while not necessarily a BAD game, lacked focus. The game tried to cater to three separate styles of play and suffered for it. It's the opposite, yet similar to what the Adventure games tried to do. They had different stage styles to suit different characters which hurt the overall game direction. Focus is important. Chase after two rabbits and you'll catch neither.

>>383189915
International law. You're going to jail, pedo.

>>383190315
Oh so you're a schizo who doesn't even know the answer.

>lange presents a sensible argument on why modern sonic just isn't that hot
>r-reee pedo!! it's their VISION

>>383189906
>Eggman discussing starts with Cortex, K. Rool, and Bowser
Made me chuckle.

>>383189590
>I honestly believe the 3D Sonic games will get way better
Why? Colors, Generations, and Forces are the best modern Sonic Team can do. Even if they stripped out the 2D segments in their next game, the level design would still be notably linear and spline-filled.

I mean, they can barely get Sonic working WHILE using 2D as a crutch, what makes you think they'll magically wake up one day and understand how to properly translate the character's fundamental mechanics into 3D?

At this point 3D Sonic's best chance is to either be handled by a separate developer, or to have a new director that hasn't been involved in any past Sonic project take over the next game's development. It's sad, honestly.

>>383186872
Even if that were true, why would that be focused on over the actual content of the argument, or as a way to dismiss it?

>>383187979
>You're saying they're worse because they aren't adhering to standards that you personally set
That the classics set.*
The original games by Sonic's visionaries that established the core of what Sonic is.
Even if the modern games are equal but different, it still makes more sense to me for the classics to be the default.
You can argue that this itself a subjective view, but it's not arbitrary. It has a reasonable and thought out basis.

>You're saying they're worse because they fail to match Classic Sonic
Because they emulate mechanics of the classic games, but are severely reduced, often to create the illusion of actual mechanics existing where they don't.

>The flaws you are seeing are not objective and you have made no solid argument for theoretical flaws other than "Classic games did X but modern games do Y therefore flaw"
Sonic propelling off a ramp by natural forces with control intact, vs propelling off a ramp that dictates his speed, motion through the air, and arrests control during the entire sequence, sometimes sticking a QTE in the middle. The latter is worse, from a general gameplay standpoint and especially a Sonic standpoint. I could spend a long while breaking down the mechanical elements between the games and explaining this.

>>383188608
>I'll just call him an atheist and hurl random insults at him that'll show him
Not an atheist. No one on the team is underage. We're not trying to surpass a triple A studio. I don't care if no one cares that I "get Sonic".
>>383189807
That's not me. Tpot is not 17. I never "let him have access to the porn room", the fuck are you even talking about.

>>383189557
We are making new badniks just as there will be new stages, and lots of consideration has gone into making them worthwhile in 3d. The level design scheme has obstacles and hazards in mind too.

>>383190449
Tpot is Canadian. What kind of a question is "what state", retard.

>>383190524
>starts
strats*, fuck me.

>>383190607
How would I know that? You could have just said that, dumbass.

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>>383187765

Seaside hill is undeniably the best boost stage in terms of alternate paths and exploring. What Sonic Team needs to do to take boost to the next level is take that mind set, drop most of the handholding automation, and give the player more influence when interacting with stage geometry. Stages should be intentionally designed so that you can fling Sonic off of the terrain under his own power.

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>>383190574
That's right, you're not an atheist, you're "something you weak-minded fools won't understand". Which essentially means you believe in the spaghetti monster but still want to post your anti-religious memes from 2008.

>>383189906
So much work, for what? Is it going to be a fangame? Or just some side project? It doesn't even have a lot of views so like what the hell did the creator kill himself after this because it looks absolutely beautiful and he hasn't gotten the recognition he deserves.

>>383190574
Most of your faults stem from design issues that spawn from difficulties being in 3D.

If you tried to make Scrap Brain Zone, you would either redesign it to be more forgiving or you would probably start implementing strategies ST has used in the past.

>>383187979
Lets say that there was a Nintendo series that had a core gameplay concept that both worked really well and was expandable enough that said core gameplay didn't get stale when future games were released, and aside from a misstep or two continued on until there was a game released that features arguably the pinnacle of its kind of gameplay ~5 years later. There might of been a few releases that were ok but of no significance until the entire industry decides to jump to 3D. The core gameplay of the previous pinnacle doesn't quite work in three dimensions because of the expanded volume, and lack of depth and accuracy viewing 3D space on a 2D screen gives, and technical limitations of creating 3D games as expansive as their 2D brethren. The developers try their best to translate the gameplay and design of the 2D games to 3D, but ultimately have to create means of making 3D aiming as effortless as 2D, by automating it. As well as having to make the level design more linear to ease console limitations.

1/2

>>383191008
>So much work, for what?
Respectable work that you put in your portfolio, obviously.

>>383190881
With how fast he moves, he's gonna end up falling off the stage for, like, 80% of players. Sonic isn't meant to be some kinda really difficult game for just core players.

>>383191052
>you would either redesign it
That's what you're supposed to do. Adapting a series accurately to a 3D plane isn't just half-assedly trying to slap a Z axis to the same designs and gameplay. You have to add a lot more to it. That's why Kirby's attempt at 3D is so utterly pathetic, worse than any 3D Sonic game and worse than Mario 3D Land.

>>383190881
Fuck that looks fun

It's like the equivalent of that webm of Sonic Mania's bubble shield physics.

>>383191189
The real problem is that is the whole 'Crash is Dark Souls' meme that's been floating around.

>>383191109
That already happened, it's called the Legend of Zelda.

>>383191109
This game's praised for years later, despite whatever flaws and restrictions it might of had in comparison to its predecessors. So instead of trying their best to fix the flaws they couldn't do anything about in the previous game, the next one dives head first into expanding on the compromises that made up the first game, with each subsequent game changing things up drastically from its previous iteration until it all comes to a head where the latest game is so linear and far removed from what made that series good originally that people start to notice and complain about it. The next game however, with the advancements in technology presented to them that they'd dare dream to have years before, decide instead to go back to the drawing board of what made the 2D games good and translate that to 3D with a fresh set of eyes and not nearly the same restrictions. Said game is released to possibly the biggest possible fanfare the series's had in years, almost a decade even.

The differences in that series and Sonic split at the latest game, with that series doing what Sonic team should of done and the actual sonic team instead doubling down on all of the parts that removes it from the classic games (bar the superficial.)

If you hadn't caught on, I was referring to the Legend of Zelda.

2/2

>>383191360
6 seconds, geeze. That was the point.

>>383191189
Yes, it is. Besides, that's unintended gameplay.

>>383191284
But I don't necessarily think he has had to work with these issues yet since he created an open sandbox with few hazards.

>>383191374
>>383191475
And my point now is that Aonuma and the Zelda team WANTED to make a game like the original. Sonic Team doesn't. Does that mean Sonic Team is bad and should not make the games anymore? No, it means they're making them for a different audience than you.

>>383177879
Yeah man, it was neat

>>383191497
That's true, and I don't think he should be trying to make old levels in 3D for actual levels, there shouldn't be a 3D Scrap Brain, there should be a new level that is challenging in 3D. Mario 64 didn't give you "3D 1-1" or "3D 7-4". I don't think the sandbox tech demo should be indicative of what the levels themselves will be designed as.

I'd like to play as Amy, desu. Using the hammer could be fun.

>>383191374
Sonic is not great for open world, it is better as a course game.

>>383191975
There are no open world Sonic games, though.

>>383191934
I am saying he is blaming issues in STs approach to 3D Sonic which I believe were made to work with the level design they had created.
My belief is that part of the reason Sonic is so fun to play in this build is because it is open world with few hazards.

>>383190574
>Sonic propelling off a ramp by natural forces with control intact, vs propelling off a ramp that dictates his speed, motion through the air, and arrests control during the entire sequence, sometimes sticking a QTE in the middle.
This is exactly what I'm fucking talking about you gosh dang goober. This is why I'm saying you're holding the modern games to standards the modern games were never trying to meet. Absolutely fucking no one gives a shit about the ramps and slopes and momentum and jump arcs and fucking whatever when they're playing a modern game because that's not what the fucking modern games are about or trying to do. This is why I gave you the Outrun vs Marble Madness comparison earlier because the GOAL of the two games, the OBJECTIVE, the CORE DESIGNS are trying to achieve two totally different and unique things. People play boost games for the sidestep, rails, ring management, drifting, time trials, fucking racing. It's a different game, that's why it doesn't fucking matter if it's the same series. Just because you have a basis for your logic doesn't mean your logic isn't fucking faulty in this context. The problem with modern games is that they don't play up the strengths of what modern games do well enough, it should focus more on winding paths with a higher focus on drifting and alternate paths as a reward for level knowledge that save you time at the cost of higher difficulty like high paths in Sonic 2 but with the emphasis being speed and score/time being the goal. The loops and ramps are just there to break things up and to get you from one system to another cleanly, almost every time you hit some sort of cinematic like a ramp with QTE's or a loop in a boost game it's because you're going from a mach speed section to a 2D section or a rail section. What you're saying they should fix doesn't make it a better boost game, it makes it a different game.

>>383190574
>Sonic propelling off a ramp by natural forces with control intact, vs propelling off a ramp that dictates his speed, motion through the air, and arrests control during the entire sequence, sometimes sticking a QTE in the middle.
That hardly has anything to do with the Boost formula though. Sonic Team just needs to stop acting like the players are incapable of pulling that stuff off themselves. And if they do that, then what's your problem with the boost formula?

>>383192278
They were trying to meet them and failed, and I give a shit about them along with many other people.

>>383192214
It's not open world though, there's a beginning and an end. It's not even entirely a sandbox, it's just a big level.

>>383192592
Yeah, and it is drastically different from the level design we see in STs games. Which may suggest that either the problem is entirely the level design and not Sonic.

>>383180295
Naturally, I want to incorporate water into level design, and even level design into water. A couple levels have planned water sections. If water is ever used as a bottomless pit, it will be clearly distinguished, such as being a dark shade or only reachable by traveling underwater to see it.

>>383191052
Certainly, I've pored over the specifics and implications of 3d level design for Sonic, it's difficult. A major thing I've been learning as I go is that visual design is half the battle, and I suspect this is a big reason for the linearity and invisible walls lining the modern games. It allows the artists to be a lot more uninhibited with environmental design and isolate it from level design. Allowing everything to coexist in playable space either makes for a mess of collisions or restricts the presentation, and given how extravagant some of the classic visuals get, this has been one of the more challenging aspects for me, including modeling methods.

>>383192471
Not him, but he's right. People generally aren't thinking about fucking ramps when they're playing the boost games.

You and "many other people" are simply autistic.

>>383192821
Maybe, port that level into Sonic Generations and see if Modern Sonic can play it.

>>383193057
That isn't correct and you don't have an argument.

>>383193171
That is correct and your argument was flawed.

>>383190574
Dude I love your work please don't ever doubt yourself by listening to your dectrators and may you find cosmic eternity.

>>383191673
Yes, they later wanted to make a game like the original long after they were trying to make a game like the original but couldn't due to logistical and technical limitations. (See: at one point in development the entire game was going to be set in Ganons castle because there was a possibility they couldn't have a open expansive area like Hyrule field. (Which was empty and mostly lifeless for previously noted reasons.)) The 3D zeldas have been criticized for years for their lack of technical depth, which nintendo didn't do anything about for the longest time because the other ones were financially successful, why change what works?

The ultimate point in the entire argument it seems is: Every 3D sonic gameplay variant exists as a compromise in the freedom of movement sonic has due to the difficulty in making sonic in 3D work. Moreso adventure than boost because boost adapts rushes gameplay to 3D and for what it sets out to do, it works the first or second playthrough.
What "classicfags" have been complaining about with 3D sonic is the freedom to do as you will without restriction to movement through a level based on the players skill at playing it is by definition of a good game being "A game that gives the player ultimate control to do as they please through a level given the bounds of the situation" is superior to what every official 3D sonic games philosophy of "Make linear spectacle by making only one way through a level with the occasional offshoot to mix things up a bit." This can be fun, the first few times.

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>Hey have a sonic game where you can actually control sonic
>WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
>What's wrong? The stages are no longer linear an-
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
>A-and let you actually explore th-
>WWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
>You actually move sonic and the game doesn't play itself with scripts and boosters for everythin-
>WWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
>..Would you like me to playback some prerecorded video of sonic walking down a straight corridor and have you pretend you're playing so you can feel safe?
>Yes please

The state of the sonic fanbase, everyone.

>>383193007
Let me make a scale of 1-10 in difficulty.

It seems as though you may finally realize why Sonic Team has struggled the way to easily translate Sonic into 3D. You end up with really large stages that take a huge number of resources to make interesting or level design that complements Sonic's abilities or level design between 3-7 on the difficulty scale.

Even your stage lacks much going on, and takes little challenge to complete. If you tried to create challenge, I wouldn't be surprised if you slammed your head in the wall getting in the 3-7 difficulty range when designing the stages

The simplest solution is to change Sonic, which is what SEGA has been doing for a while.

>>383192278
The game playing itself isn't good or fun design regardless of the classic games. It's a fucking bore how every stage in modern sonic games are almost the same. QTE based games like Asura's Wrath can work. Asura's Wrath has a good story that makes up for its lack of gameplay. Modern Sonic has what?

>>383193587
>This can be fun, the first few times
It's been fun every time for me to the point that I still want more. Why should I have my toy taken away from me because others don't like it?

>>383194114
>The game playing itself isn't good or fun design regardless of the classic games
And yet it still has an audience.
>It's a fucking bore
To you

>>383194023
No one said this.

>>383194114
So like did you even read what I said at all or are you just shitposting?

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>>383193007
This is probably WAY down the road in terms of development, but I have to ask: Do you plan on incorporating Special Stages? Personally, I think it'd be refreshing to have the Chaos Emeralds hidden away in the stage themselves like Sonic 1 and 2 for the Master System.

>>383194349
>No one said this.
If you're reading an entirely different thread than this one, then you're right.

>>383194023
>The state of the sonic fanbase, everyone.
>the fanbase is one person
It's a good thing you're posting anonymously. That would have been embarrassing.

>>383194114
>The game playing itself isn't good or fun design

Good thing the boost games don't really play themselves at all beyond a few short air QTEs.

>>383194316
>Why should I have my toy taken away from me because others don't like it?

The main point ITT is that people should be given choice. You don't usually use the "my food" argument with famished people who have been waiting food for literal decades.

>>383194619
>Believing it's just one person.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

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>>383194316
>T-that's just your opinion
Yeah, and farmville has an audience too, but that doesn't mean freemium games suddenly can't be called shit.

>>383194417
Sauce of pic? It looks astounding and I want more.

>>383194316
You can enjoy things that are fundamentally flawed, but that doesn't stop them from being fundamentally flawed.

And to be fair, anyone who's liked gameplay based around momentum based physics have effectively had no official toys for over a decade (almost 2), so why is the current hotness the only thing allowed, especially if it was, again, fundamentally flawed to begin with.

>>383194584
I think it'd help your case if you showed the idiots. Otherwise, you'll be shat on.

Oh wait, you don't have a case. Ignore this and carry on.

>>383194584
No one in this thread is saying Classic Sonic is shit or that exploration is bad, there's just people defending boost Sonic as a valid form of Sonic because it is. Classic Sonic is my favorite fucking style of Sonic games by far, and the boost games do have plenty of problems, but I don't play boost games for the same reasons I play classic games, they do not serve the same function. Boost games shouldn't be like classic games, they should be like boost games. That's the point.

>>383194983
You could literally read the thread you're in right now.

>>383194706
>>383194927
Sonic Team is NOT going to make two different 3D games at once. They would either pick Utopia and shoot Boost style in the back of the head, or ignore Utopia and keep making Boost games. As a Boost fan, I'm not just gonna sit back and get cucked out of my preferred playstyle.

>>383194829
It's funny because Sonic actually does have freemium games that I've had fun with despite the blatant Jewery.

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>>383194809
That's not what I was implying at all. Please stop, I'm getting second-hand embarrassment from your posts.

>>383192278
Intentionally trying to be a game that ends up being less than its predecessors is still that. This leaves me to regard the classics as a more sensible default. Yes, being in the same series matters. If it were a spinoff it'd be different, but it's the same continuity as the classics and it has overridden them.

>>383192381
>That hardly has anything to do with the Boost formula though.
If these things are cut out, then what's left to make up for the difference?

>And if they do that, then what's your problem with the boost formula?
The boost itself. It neutralizes all momentum and terrain rendering it meaningless. There are no forces at play, no merit to controlling Sonic, all slopes and loops are effectively the same as running on flat ground at a fixed speed, they don't even have a reason to exist with the boost other than to superficially mock classic designs. What you're left with are basically minigames with binary responses strung together that add up to incoherent gameplay.

>>383193532
I appreciate it, and I don't doubt myself. I still listen to others, whether they agree or disagree, and even if others seem like assholes. Feedback is feedback, it all means something worth considering.

>>383194067
I have foreseen this and taken it into account. Reframing the challenge is what I'm going for. Emphasizing the physics aspect and control over Sonic in tricky environments. Making Sonic control well is key to this. When the fundamentals are worked out, things start falling into place.

>>383194417
>Do you plan on incorporating Special Stages?
Yes. I don't want to spoil how they'll work.

>>383195178
I think you need reading comprehension. You implied it was just one person upset at a nonlinear sonic that doesn't play itself.

I said it wasn't.

>>383184885
It did have a scoring system, which rewarded you (as a lower time gives you a bigger bonus, with the sub one-minute times giving you a huge boost - especially compared to the bonus you get from keeping rings). The games always rewarded you for speed-running, rankings were just kind of the next step.

>>383195332
Huh? The post that anon was mocking was a guy that implied just that, and the anon your talking to mocked the original anon for it.

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>>383195308
>superficially mock
Imagine being this offended by setpieces.