How do we save the Diablolike sub-genre, /v/? Surely shallow

I just want an isometric ARPG that doesn't have an awful economy system. I liked the concept of having a WoW-like auction house in one. I don't want to have to go to a specific person each and every time I need to obtain a specific item.

We make it first person

>>383010482
Melee combat is best in third person though, and I think fantasy is better for this genre

>Surely shallow mouseclick combat and pointless loot treadmills can't be the pinnacle of video game design?

I don't understand, do you want more diablo games or not

>>383010606
What's wrong with cyberpunk?
Laser swords, guns, augments, mutations, ayys, turrets

Make it more action oriented instead of a boring clickfest.

Less standing like a pole, less damage soaking because 99vit
More dodging and rolling, more movement, more fast

>>383010715
But mouseclick combat is just a technological limitation because the first game was based on turn-based RPGs back in 96. Just because mario became 3d doesn't mean it's still not mario. And loot treadmills aren't bad, it's just that the entire focus of the genre seems to be grinding until the best items feel like dropping, and then you've reached the pinnacle. I think the loot should be a tool for you to complete your quest, not the quest itself.

>>383011268
>I think the loot should be a tool for you to complete your quest, not the quest itself.

Monster Hunter does this well.

>>383011159
Maybe if they did some outlandish science fantasy like jodorowskys comics

>>383011204
You mean like dark souls?

>>383010482
I literally threw up in my mouth a little.

>>383012661
not that guy but maybe something more like Battlerite/Bloodline Champions combat

>>383010296

>diablolike

It's called hack-n-slash.

>>383011204
Evaluating damage rates and managing buffs is infinitely more enjoyable than autistic dodge rolling.

>>383012919
Yeah except no-one ever other than maybe you use that phrase. 'a(ction)rpg' is the terminology if you want to communicate with the rest of the world.

>>383012881
BLC is based around pvp though, I don't think it would work the same as with mass PvE

plus cooldowns fucking suck dick

>>383013192
"Action RPG" encapsulates much more than diablo clones.

>>383012919
It's diablolike similar to roguelike. Named after the first prominent game of the genre.

Hack'n'slash gets people imagining all kinds of different games that are no longer diablolikes. Hence it's better to use diablolike so people know what we're talking about.

>>383010296
Real mechanics to boss fights other than "don't stand in shit" and unconsensual world PVP

>>383013194
Doesn't have to be limited by cooldowns in a similar way. Simply the control scheme of wasd movement and mouse aiming with aimed melee and mostly skillshot abilities.

>>383013194
Oh god this. Cooldowns are the worst.

They're ok if the point is to stop you casting Blizzard every ten frames but when it's just a con to try and make you use more abilities it's terrible.

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>>383013083
[stationary clicking noises on hell difficulty]

>>383013192
>Diablo is an action role-playing hack and slash video game developed by Blizzard North and released by Blizzard Entertainment on December 31, 1996.
hmm really makes me think

>>383013279
only if you're a huge weeb

>>383013192
Literally everyone refers to diablo games as diablo-clones or aRPGs

Grim Dawn is the best effort so far.

>>383013583
It might have been originally called that but it's stupid to use genre definitions that aren't actually defining anything.

People will use hack and slash to describe all kinds of different games where you hack and slash. ARPG is another that's so generic that literally anything with action and rpg elements goes under it.

If you say diablolike people instantly know what you're talking about.

>>383013795
People also use ARPG to talk about souls games or fucking zelda or whatever.

>>383013885
Grim Dawn is just as boring and outdated gameplay-wise as all the other games in the genre.

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>>383014009
>zelda
>arpg
>rpg

>>383014009
man like why are you even here

>>383010296
>Surely shallow mouseclick combat and pointless loot treadmills can't be the pinnacle of video game design?
but all vidya does that. hopefully, you're able to realize that. if not, then give it some time.

>>383010482
do you really want more borderlands clones?

>>383014158
Because I like diablolikes.

>>383014115
I guarantee some fuck out there would call zelda games arpgs. It's such a fucking generic definition that it's almost useless when talking about games.

>>383014252
Borderlands was fucking terrible and didn't have a lot of the features that diablolikes usually have. And first person doesn't have to boil down to 100% shooting.

>>383014009

I hope your dad rapes you full of AIDS

Just play MedianXL

>>383014492
My dad is dead.

I'd also like to hear why you think that. What did I say that got you so frustrated?

>>383014430
By the sound of it you don't like hack-and-slash games at all.

>>383014569
Sorry, but my epilepsy prevents me

>>383014569
I swear you're in every thread. That mod is so shit that I'd rather eat my own shit than play it. Take it the fuck away from these threads and stop pretending its "the right way to play d2" or whatever.

Any of youse played Median XL? How is it?

>>383014643
>My dad is dead.

Of AIDS related complications

He caught years of transvestite dogging

Pimped by your mother's bull

>>383014924
It's fine, they changed the skills and made the game harder. So you don't usually do the regular D2 builds, but you still invest 300 points in vit

>>383014654
I like diablolikes very much. I still occasionally go back to d1 and d2, I have like 2000 hours in D3 and probably closing in 5000 hours of PoE.

I still think that a lot of the features of the genre are outdated and I'd like to see developers try some fresh things with it.

>>383014924

Complete shit, ruined by years of inbreeding with it's top 5 most autistic fans. Incredibly overblown, unwieldy and top heavy

>>383014850
>being this mad over a mod

>>383014252
Maybe slightly more towards Savage

>>383015029
Kinda like how D3 did but then everybody complained it wasn't just a copy pasted rehash?

Wait for Blizzard to release Diablo 4. Just like they revolutionized the genre with the third instalment.

>>383015161
What do you honestly think D3 did that was fresh?

Protip: dumbing down is not fresh.

>>383015029
>I'd like to see developers try some fresh things with it.


For example?

>>383015161
yeah fucking regressives, how can't they love things like real money auction houses, wow artstyle, loot built around two stats or the worlds worst storyline?

>>383015161
>>383015331
D3 still plays the best out of all diablolikes I've played. It fails in character building and a lot of it's design. Like the item set and legendary power focused itemization that absolutely ruins any kind of creativity. On top of that it has gotten fuckall support from blizzard even when it is one of the best selling games of all time.

Doesn't change the fact that it just feels good to play.

>>383015303
Do you really think they'll make a fourth game? I heavily doubt it. They even canceled the 2nd expansion for D3 and just released the Necromancer as a standalone.

>>383015513
Like the earlier discussed new controls/gameplay elements.

>>383015673
>Like the earlier discussed new controls/gameplay elements.


Dodge rolling?

Like D3 on console?

>>383015673
>D3 still plays the best out of all diablolikes I've played.
That's nothing "fresh", that's having satisfying animations and physics. You're not answering the question.

>>383011268
there's nothing good about diablo-like games, and you seem to understand that. why are you here asking for them to be 'saved'

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GUYS WAIT
WHAT IF
HOLD ON
WHAT IF WE COMBINED
DARK SOULS GAMEPLAY/ATMOSPHERE
WITH DIABLO'S PROCEDURALLY GENERATED LOOT/DUNGEONS? ALSO INCLUDE TRADE AND OPEN WORLD PVP CENTERED AROUND HUBS

>>383016162
>there's nothing good about diablo-like games, and you seem to understand that
but I love them
simplistic point-n-click gameplay isn't bad, just simplistic, if you could keep the fun and excitement but add another layer of skill, then that would be fucking amazing 10/10 play all my life

>>383016223

Because, fucktits, dodge rolling makes stats redundant

>>383016223
>INCLUDE TRADE
into the trash it goes

>>383015161
Things D3 did that were fresh:
- an auction house except let's face it jsp and chinese rmt sites had existed for years
- nothing else

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Just stop making it an isometric click fest.

>>383010296
There's nothing to fix. D3 sucked but PoE and Grim Dawn both get the job done.

>>383011204
>Make it more action oriented instead of a boring clickfest.
That's literally the console version of Diablo 3

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>>383010296
>Surely shallow mouseclick combat and pointless loot treadmills can't be the pinnacle of video game design?
desu that's not really what made the originals so fucking popular, it goes well beyond the genre.

Let's go over it again:
>one of the few big online titles at the time with free online service
>rock solid stability and responsive GUI
>exploration-based with traps and dangers at every step
>many interactions between players, whether cooperation, trade, duelling or PKing
>dark mood and serious tone

Inventory Tetris and clicking was only secondary to its success. It has its charm, but that's not what made it so good, it's everything else.

Ironically, it's what Souls games managed to capture, but that every other Diablo-clone failed to do, because of their light-hearted tones, lack of multiplayer focus, and most importantly, the death of good PvP and PKing. And on top of it, Souls games provided the much needed update to gameplay, because Diablo's gameplay is quite simply outdated.

It's no wonder most Diablo fans eventually moved to Guild Wars, it continued on the same line of player interaction and PvP focus, and GvG was just what they needed. But the tone was gone, and the exploration quite diminished.

>>383015994
I'd be interested in seeing third and first person diablolikes that still stick to the core elements of the genre like procgen, itemization, skills and character building. On top of that trying out different control schemes in the top down model would be interesting. I think Battlerite controls might work fairly well in a diablolike.

>>383016116
Oh I sort of failed on quoting you. Another anon claimed that D3 was fresh.

Well it didn't happen until the expansion but they got rid of the usual difficulty system where you play through the same game multiple times. Scaling all content to level was also quite different. Not sure if D3 vanilla did anything that special itself. I suppose the Rune system was kind of a push towards more skill diversity, it's just that the balance team absolutely failed to pull that off.

>>383016223
Didn't Bloodborne have some sort of procgen dungeons in it? I haven't played it but I think I've heard something like that.

>>383016976
Nioh was still a handmade and designed game world wasn't it?

>>383010296
>Diablolike
It´s called hack&slash.

>>383017208
>I'd be interested in seeing third and first person diablolikes that still stick to the core elements of the genre like procgen, itemization, skills and character building.
>first person diablolikes

It's called Kings and Heroes and it's shit and nobody plays it.

>>383016418
Souls series has dodge rolls and stats are anything but redundant

>>383017208
yeah bloodborne did have it but Bloodborne doesn't have any good loot in those dungeons, you just grind crafting materials in them which is infinitely more boring than chasing that one item

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>>383010296
play Nioh.

>liked D3: ROS, stopped releasing new content in seasons
>liked Grim Dawn, no season or ladder or anything for online
>liked Marvel Heroes, fucking clownshoes constantly try to ruin the game

>>383017416
>Kings and Heroes
I've looked at it in Steam quite a few times but EA and fairly poor reviews have put me off.
>it's shit
Well gee. Maybe someone needs to make a good game like that.

>>383017558
Were the dungeons themselves any good?

>>383017705
Why don't you buy the necromancer :)

>>383016223
diablo has better atmosphere than dark souls though
a diablo 4 or spiritual successor should have melee combat like dark souls in that you have parries and different moves and shit, but keep the freedom of movement of mouse-controlled games (chivalry for example)
Ranged combat should also be much better than it is in dark souls, with fast, free mouse aim much like any FPS game
melee skills from your skill tree should give you larger movesets, so if we take smite from the d2 pally, instead of it being some special button you press, pressing attack when holding up your shield now performs a shield bash, though ranged skills and spells would generally be like weapons you equip in a FPS

also it should be semi-open world because it's basically what diablo 2 was going for all along. People might not think it's spooky enough for diablo, but let's face it, being stuck in the forest in the middle of the night is just as spooky as entering some crypt

mass online interactions totally go against the whole genre though, being the savior against evil is fucking stupid when there's hundreds of saviors against evil running around, though small parties should still be fine, and maybe invasion pvp too

>>383017813
No. They were reused enemies and bosses from the main game.

>>383016223
Fuck off, not everything should be Dark Souls.

>>383017959
>keep the freedom of movement of mouse-controlled games

>>383015303
>nu-Blizzard
>revolutionized the genre

doubt that. Overwatch is a shit League/TF2 clone. SC2 is literally a bad SC. Warcraft 4 wil be mobile game.

>>383018473
console fags out

>>383018473
diablo is a pc title mainly, and I don't know if you could make movement as good with a controller as you could with a mouse
a melee-centric pc game doesn't need lockon for example

>>383017208
>Well it didn't happen until the expansion but they got rid of the usual difficulty system where you play through the same game multiple times. Scaling all content to level was also quite different.
It's also the laziest possible way to "deal" with difficulty tuning, and is yet another case-in-point for D3's completely arbitrary game design.

>casual morons didn't like scrolls of identification, so we just removed them. to preserve the """magic""" of identifying items, you now get to stand for 3 seconds to identify every single item
>casual morons didn't like building their own skill trees, so we just removed them. now you unlock a skill every level based upon no rhyme or reason whatsoever.
>switching skills is too easy now, too, so every time you want to do it you have to teleport to base and wait for half a fucking minute
>we didn't make enough content to go through to max level in one go, but we'll remove difficulties anyway. fuck coherence, now the player can do our job for us by tuning their own difficulty. the mob can have 1'000 HP or 10 x e^10 HP, you choose™©!!

One actual way to get over this problem of how to remove difficulty levels is MAKING CONTENT TO FILL YOUR LEVEL PROGRESSION. See PoE's latest expansion.

Seriously, fuck this game in the ass so hard. No gameplay mechanics come out of some coherent design philosophy, it's just bandaids upon bandaids that fix the dumbing down Blizzard went for to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

>I suppose the Rune system was kind of a push towards more skill diversity, it's just that the balance team absolutely failed to pull that off.
That and like the other change you mentioned, it isn't really a fundamental gameplay overhaul that would "save" this genre. Skill trees are just as functional, and in fact more rewarding to the player.

>>383015673
>Do you really think they'll make a fourth game? I heavily doubt it. They even canceled the 2nd expansion for D3 and just released the Necromancer as a standalone.
David Brevik already confirmed that they're absolutely going to do Diablo 4. He just doesn't know what kind of game it will be.
They cancelled the expansion because the attachment rates to expansions have dropped considerably. They're most likely going to sell the Druid class as another 15€ class pack in the Diablo 3 store, as well as other minor shit while they develop Diablo 4 with another team.

I think Blizzard realized that Diablo 3 has serious structural design flaws that are not worth addressing unless you rebuild the entire game, which they obviously are not going to do, so they might as well do it in a sequel.

>>383017504
>Souls series has dodge rolls and stats are anything but redundant

ahahaha no they aren't, you're not supposed to get hit in DS, the game makes it possible to avoid all damage, people beat those games without even leveling up.

H&S comes from the roguelike where having the right resistances, items and weapons is essential.

>>383018312
but Souls formula make everything better.

>>383017813
>Maybe someone needs to make a good game like that

It wasn't the classes, items or skills that sucked

HINT, first person is shit for the genre because it severely limits your FOV and the level design and enemies have to be endumbened to compensate

Look at borderland's shitgasm of bulletsponge mobs

>>383019524
How would this be different from normal FPS games? Or are you saying that the randomized levels and meatgrinder mobs in diablo clones are actually smarter than in any FPS?

>>383018959

inal l honesty if it wasn't for always online drm and the real money ah i bet yeah /v/ would have 24 threads about it. We all know everyone on here bought it but that 9/11 of a launch is what stopped everyone from playing in the long run.

>>383013083
>DPS and buffs aren't in action games
>facetanking is more engaging than learning the tells of every attack a boss has, how to avoid them and how to capitalize on the opening
Three guesses who hasn't played an action game before.

>>383020152
people usually return for season starts but Diablo 3's problem is in its shit skill/rune/legendary/set items system that makes 2 builds viable per class and that's it.
The devs essentially come up with builds, design them, and then say "here you can use this". It should be the other way around. It should be the players designing builds based on items and skills that exist in the game.

Friend demands I play Diablo 3 with him
I've never played 1 or 2
I give both of them a try for an hour and they're just too ancient and clunky for me

I ruined myself by playing things like PoE and Grim Dawn first and trying to go back to the old things

>>383020438
On top of that the last like 5 seasons have had absolutely fuckall new content. They stopped putting in any effort.

>>383020480
diablo 2 actually has less clunky combat than PoE, it's basically the same except PoE's animation team was less talented

>>383020630
PoE's combat has improved massively in the last year or two.

>>383020480
>PoE
>not clunky or ancient looking

>>383020480
D3 is by far the easiest game in the genre to get into.

>>383020749
Like how? I played it as recently as fall, as far as I can tell it's the same, except the lategame has become too overpowered so you're blowing up trash mobs like they don't exist

things poe does right

>audiovisuals
>skills
>story not bad

things poe does wrong

>character costumes / customization: either look shit or pay 100€ for some cool looking armor
>difficulty non existant? you oneshotting all mobs and mobs oneshotting you taking turns.
>endgame content.. whats the point of running thru maps oneshotting everything from t1-t16
>no teamplay or wits or mechanical skills required in this game
>most builds are just "spam Q and flasks"

>>383020630
That's true, but also I noticed one thing. PoE's animations are sort of played with the assumption that they're going to be played constantly, for example that if an attack takes 1 second and you hold the skill for 2 seconds, your character will be moving the entirety of those 2 seconds to perform two attacks.

Whereas D2 animations are all relatively short, and the wait is in the -cooldown- of the attack, and not in the animation itself being slowed.

If they adjusted this thing alone I think PoE would have a vastly more satisfying combat system.

>>383020480
Grim Dawn and PoE are the ancient ones. Diablo 3 evolved Diablo 2.

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>>383021183
>evolved = dumbed down

>>383019891
>How would this be different from normal FPS games?

Imagine trying to play the rogue monastry Jail or act 2 sewers as a melee character in first person.

>>383021301
How would that be difficult?

>people say PoE is getting 6 new acts in the next expansion
>this can't be possible
>look it up
>it's actually 1 new act, the remaining 5 are 100% reused content

>>383021301
So Skyrim?

Sounds fucking awful.

>>383021621
>100%

>>383021301
I think the only thing first person would really limit is the amount of enemies you can face at once and it would make it harder to use skills that are ground targeted but even that can be done.

>>383021621
it's not 100% reused content, I know there are new mobs and shit

>>383021754
>>383021780
>PoE defense force

>>383021827
You're welcome to reevaluate your estimate, friend.

>>383021621
It's like calling new Diablo 3 zones "Acts" just because they are new maps.

Do the PoE "Acts" even have new enemies?

>>383021982
enjoy paying 50€ for an armor skin so you get pants?

>>383021754
PoE is the game for desperate people who can't afford to spend twenty bucks on Diablo.

Is The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing any good? I rarely see anyone mentioning it when talking about HnS games.

>>383022016
>It's like calling new Diablo 3 zones "Acts" just because they are new maps.
What did he mean by this?

It's new maps, new NPCs, new enemies and new quests, i.e. progressing story. Just what the fuck do you call an act anyways?

>Do the PoE "Acts" even have new enemies?
Yes, new enemies and a new gameplay mechanic of absorbing gods' powers. all mentioned/shown in the trailer

>>383021756

Like skyrim it completely tilts the balance of effective enemy killing in stealth ranged's favor because the enemies have to be few and visible to give all classes a chance.

>>383021525
>How would that be difficult?

being in combat means your screen is completely full of enemies

>>383022331
It's horrible, just like Viktor Vran. Grim Dawn is the only one passable besides Diablo and Torchlight 2 which are actually good.

>>383010296
it's called an ARPG you mongoloid

>>383022331

imagine a really boring game ...that's it

>>383022462
torchlight 2 is shit brah, no builds matter, gear is all le comedy

>>383022462
Torchlight 2 was completely terrible.

>>383010606
This is because no company ever really tries to make good first person combat.

>>383022331
It's horrible. Even for someone who hates D3, D3 is leagues and leagues more enjoyable.

>>383022774
it's more because you're practically just a stick with arms and a camera in fps games, and melee combat is better if you can see your entire body

>>383022462
>>383022648
>>383022775
Shame. The artstyle of the game looks incredible.

>>383010296

Just make it isometric dark souls with fancier loot and faster killing

>>383022331
I'm new to this genre and I fucking hated it, it's boring as shit. I barely liked diablo 3 to be honest.

>>383022907
I agree but that doesn't mean fps melee combat can't be good. I'm convinced it is more that most developers just don't do it right.

>>383022774
Pretty much this >>383022907

Melee combat basically requires more movement than just the hands but at the same time moving the camera in a first person game outside of player input easily makes it feel weird. So all the melee animations boil down to waving of hands which heavily limits the range of motion you can have in the melee combat.

>>383023090
>Shame. The artstyle of the game looks incredible.

Doesn't look good in game, really sterile

>>383023202
it can be fun as shit, I've played like at least 200 hours of Pirates, Vikings and Knights 2, but I think it's better for pvp games for some reason.

>>383023202

I can be good but it works with a skills based game rather than a stats based

>hack and slash
>you use magic and skills the most instead of just hacking and slashing

That flashy korean h&s looks alright but I know in my heart it'll have a downright satanic business model.

>>383023621
the genre is actually named after metzen and the guns n roses guitarist

>>383024604
hehe

>>383023130
http://store.steampowered.com/app/350050/EITR/

>>383023829
You mean Lost Ark? Haven't read any news of it for quite a while.

>>383026167
That's the one. Saw a webm of it the other day and it looked great. Almost exactly what I want from a game in this genre, combat and flashiness-wise, but because it's korean I just know that everything else will be awful.

>>383026892
Can't be too bad. It's also free so if they follow the black desert example they'll charge for it in Europe and America by giving you stuff you'd buy either way if played for free.

>>383010296
Good writing.

Diablo 2 was fucking scary Diablo 3 is like dbz

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A week ago I decided to not listen to /v/ and bought D3 RoS and so far I've been having >fun. Sure the game is not as good or deep as say, Torchlight 2, but it's relaxing to just sit on the couch and mindlessly kill shit while listening to a podcast.

I'm really hating the skill system though. So far all builds feel the same

Make it way harder but have way more comboes that can be overpowered

Isometric, primarily mouseclick combat but the ability to create unique combos using keys 1-8. You can also assign spells for mage classes that can combo as well. One-time or no skill reset so multiple characters needed to create multiple builds.

Some example ideas I've had would be a swordsman class that can have a basic attack and then a variety of skills that can follow up to that attack, then depending on your 2nd move you can chain a 3rd or 4th attack but only certain tertiary skills work following specific secondary attacks. For instance, basic attack in front combo'd with a 180 strike to enemies that close in from behind, then either a side slash to hit enemies on either side OR a dash move to roll away 5 yards. If you opt for a 3rd strike the dash would not be available so more enemies that close in would be able to harm you if you aren't smart with how you operate.

Another example is a mage class with a spell essentially like the shock rifle from UT. Shoot out a ball of energy then hit it with a beam that creates an explosion at point of impact. But the idea is to create more active thinking and manuevering in a battlefield. Diablo 3 actually does a decent job of this but I think the key is to focus on LESS enemies but also design gear and skills so that you can never become too OP, however if you're a skilled player then you can definitely become OP.

>>383027821
Make sure to turn on elective mode.

>>383028934
I'm playing on console desu

>>383028881
This, enemies are just meat you cast spells/attacks into, not real opponents, they don't dodge they don't counterattack they don't area denial (unless they're elites). Hack and slashes usually turn into grab most AoE and deplete screens of monsters. What about tanks, reflect mobs, immune mobs? They usually get removed or nerfed so that the player can hold M1 longer and grab shinier loot easier.

Diablo 3/Torchlight 2 at very low levels seems interesting because the enemy variety makes you choose who to attack and what to use, eg. shieldbreaker spells on tanky enemies. When you level up tho, you're just going to spam one ultraspell against everything and watch them all melt.

I like Sacred 1, it had less enemies that felt a bit stronger and a bit more variety (fucking skeletons and zombies resurrecting over and over again unless you use Undeath potions).

>>383029153
IMO that's the better version

>>383028881
I think combos should be in the game, but over-the-shoulder combat with more normal melee inputs would be better. First off, why keep isometric? It's more of a relic of the times than anything that provides actual value (although isometric graphics can be really nice). Using the 1-8 buttons would also be really obnoxious, though you could easily remap them to something better. Less enemies is also good, as well as keeping a check on the player power, though you should still allow him to lag behind or be twinked out, finding some perfect unique that carries you through the next 10 levels is fun after all.

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>I want to play a Dark Souls game called Diablo
Literally everyone in this thread

>>383031878
What's wrong with this? Diablo gameplay is shit and Dark Souls gameplay is god gift from Miyazaki and From Software.

>>383010296
Let you spin the camera around and add a button to block with your shields. For a 2D game, isometric is fine, but I think in 3D you should be able to rotate the camera, even if it is still overhead (e.g. like in an RTS) Shields shouldn't just be stats, they should be actively used. Could go the extra effort and add wasd controls and jumping too.

>>383031878
dark souls didn't invent the style of melee combat it uses, I don't think anyone says it has to be the exact same as dark souls, but it's a good example to bring up

>>383011437
Does it though? I generally consider the end-game in monster hunter to have end-of-line gear for your playstyle.

Even after you succeed in killing all the hardest monsters on the hardest modes you need to kill them 10 more times for the gear you need.

Are there any Diablo clones that aren't grim dark grimdarkness all the time?

>>383010296
>Diablolike
kill yourself

>>383010296
What's so bad about that? Not every game has to be some tryhard bullshit.

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They should add druids as an enemy theme in the next diablo. Just combine the traditional rpg animal druid that we got with the old style. Bog mummies, wickermen, sacrifices with their intestines nailed to trees, stone almanacs, white robes stained with blood, sacred trees, astronomy, the whole shebang. Add in cool enemies from the RPG druid side like shapeshifting acolytes, or undead versions who failed so they're a malformed fusion between a human and an animal skeleton.

It would be cool, druids are spooky to begin with.

>>383032902
Sure, but why would you want that?

>>383032902
Torchlight 1&2
Titan Quest for a lot of the game

>>383022560
Has a better ring to it than autistic clicker.

>>383033925
ACRPG would kind of fit. Arpg, crpg, being a pun for autistic clicker.

Why did PoE devs think it was a good idea to not let you hotkey swap mouse button skills?

>>383035338
Is it really needed?

Why did PoE devs think it was a good idea to not have an auto-sort button for stash/inventory?

>>383036246
Yes.

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I actually like D3's skill system.

>>383011204
So make them Diablo 3?

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>>383036686
cooldowns are bullshit though
especially cooldowns longer than 10~ seconds
god knows who came up with 2 minute cooldowns in a diablo game but that shit is retarded

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>>383036986
>cooldowns are bullshit though

I agree.

Pic related. It's a witch doctor.

>>383016223
Randomly generated 3D levels will probably suck.

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First of all, can we get rid of the click-based controls from '96 and finally move into the mouse+WASD combo?

>>383037235
There's nothing about them that would make them suck more than 2D levels or roguelike graphicless levels
.

>>383010296
>shallow mouseclick combat and pointless loot treadmills
Yea I actually liked Victor Vrann a lot more than the any of the "good" arpgs. It tries to make the combat more reactive and while it has no depth in skillbuilds and itemization so fucking what so doesnt a game like poe. Its so simple to make a build in poe you just build around one skill, stack resists, pick nodes that have keywords that fit your skill, pick every life/shield node (depends build) on your way... and youre done wow.

>>383011457
how do I, a simple american who only speaks american, go about reading his comics? are there any translations out there?

>>383037521
Why did PoE devs think it was a good idea to have dodging based challenges you'd see on a controller/wasd based game on a mouseclick based game?

Unsalvageable.
The adults who played these games in their youth obviously grew up and don't have time for pointless loot treadmills.
The children who are the current audience would rather be playing mobas with their friends than grinding like an autist.

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>>383037765
I downloaded them some place that I lost, but they're definitely available in english and looking at the google results not that hard to come by
I really recommend it too, they're absolutely fucking crazy, and pretty well drawn too
>tfw no troglosocialik gf

>>383038384
hell yes, had it in my head they were only available in spanish, thanks for reminding me these exist

Adding champions of norrath style melee combat where you manually block and every swing has weight to it and you cant just hold down the attack button

Lost ark will save diablolikes

Open beta coming in 2022

>>383039129
truly, this brings a new meaning to the term "gookclick"

>Challenge.
D3 was actually very fun on release, then the nerf-hammer happened to appease brain deads, afterwards the AH went to shit.

>Dungeon runs.
Engaging runs, that reward specific loot.

>Open world PVP

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>>383039129

>>383016223
>make it Diablo 1 with trades
This contents me.

>Talked to a guy from Blizzard at Backflip Studios' GDC party last year - he definitely knew about PoE... he didn't like it and called it 'that D2 clone.'


>Blizzard employee
>working on diablo
>doesnt like a diablo clone
>doesnt like diablo
What the fuck happened to blizzard?

>>383040194
>What the fuck happened to blizzard?
arrogance and nepotism

>>383040146
>diablo 1 had darksouls combat
dude what

>>383010296
You can't.
LoD was a flash in the pan, and was so successful due to it's innovation, but even then games have evolved so far from what something like Diablo represents, there's no going back except for a small hardcore audience that can't pull themselves away.

Imagine the wait between Mario Bros 3 and Super Mario World was 13 years? The time which that game would have held relevance would have passed by that point, and that's exactly what happens to certain genres -- notably D2, D3, and it's clones. PoE and D3 are better than D2X in many ways, but nobody gives an iota of fuck about these games, and nobody plays D2X.

Even if you went back and played D2X, you'd see the flaws you might not have seen like 15 years ago; it's repetitive, click-to-move is imprecise, the game devolves to using a couple of skills to kill a bazillion mobs per-second, end-game is just a mind-numbing grind of endless runs designed to generate loot as fast as possible, combat is simple and doesn't emphasize skill, etc.

If you want to keep playing this antiquated shit, sure... But don't expect anyone to join you in paying Pong 2017 or a fucking Pong clone.

>>383040194
But it is "that D2 clone". It's not even really it's own thing, it's just a D2 clone. No even Diablo clone, just specifically D2, like it's a D2 fangame or something. It's also clunkier than D2 and tries way too hard with it's dark edginess.

>>383041672
I still play D2 from time to time and it's still fun, except that I hate Act 2 more and more each time.

The problem is is that D2 is the pinnacle and the genre doesn't really have much potential to begin with. in the end, it's just a graphical dumbed down roguelike, and if you want to play a roguelike, you can go play a roguelike, if you want to play a mmorpg, you can go play an mmorpg, if you want to play an action RPG, you can go play an action RPG. The only real unique aspects it has anyway is killing large groups of monsters.

>>383041672
>>383042490

>PoE and D3 are better than D2X in many ways, but nobody gives an iota of fuck about these games, and nobody plays D2X.
D3 sold retardedly well even if it's dead these days, people definitely care about diablo. And sure, the genre might be a living fossil with ARPGs that already exist having surpassed it, but it still feels like something's missing, like there's just one or three elements from diablo 2 that you could add to these modern games and have the entire thing finally come together perfectly.

and how the fuck is poe too grimdark lmao, it's predecessor title had maimed women burnt to death on spikes like 5 minutes in lunaris 3 is a bit excessive though in just sheer amounts of blood and corpses

>>383044032
>how the fuck is poe too grimdark
Because it tries to be that and nothing else. Diablo 2 wasn't set in a wasteland, merely dealing with the fallout of an imminent apocalypse, and that's really just the first town. The areas, particularly near act bosses were full of dark stuff but not the entire thing. I hate act 2 because it's a big open boring desert. There's nothing grimdark about it until you start going into the dungeon full of dead guards and harem ladies. Act 3 is just a lush jungle. Act 4 is hell, so of course it's grim, but 5 wasn't really as such.

Literally everything is dying and decaying in PoE and all lore and stuff is about how much people are dying and being killed and turned into mutants. You also spend a considerable amount of time fighting regular old humans because of ideals instead of just corrupted or possessed humans. Not to mention every PC is a violent criminal.

They also go a little much on the "hey look at these tits and asses, isn't this mature!" Which isn't that Diablo doesn't have it, but it feels slightly try hard here for some reason. Probably because everything's so edgy it makes it stand out too.

>>383037521
name of that game?

>>383045506
>>383044032
Also yes, people literally writhing and tearing at themselves while drowning in a sea of blood, surrounded by Auschwitz victims impaled on spikes, and the land covered with carts full of corpses is a bit much. Especially when that has like basically nothing to do with what they were actually doing there.

>>383044032
>people definitely care about diablo.
I don't think people care about diablo otherwise D3 would not have sold nearly as well.
Blizzdrones care about Blizzard, hence every mediocre pile of shit Blizz shits out being successful and an instant meme.

PoE is the best

>>383046408
>hence every mediocre pile of shit Blizz shits out being successful and an instant meme.

I wish they would shit out another Blackthorne.

the problem with Diablo-likes is the controls

clicking to both move and attack is actually just stupid as hell
it basically removes a whole layer of possible strategy and mechanics from the game
there is absolutely no reason why these games shouldn't just have 2D Zelda controls where you move with directional buttons and attack with another button or even twin stick shooter controls so you could move toward one direction while attacking in another

>>383045506
I don't get why you dislike act 2 for not being grimdark while you hate poe for being too grimdark. Act 3 might be just a jungle, but it's the sort of heart of darkness jungle filled with satanic cannibals. PoE act 2 is very non-grim as well, I think making human enemies normal instead of possessed makes it less grimdark, not more. In general I think it's pretty equal with PoE and diablo, except PoE is post-apocalyptic instead of pre-apocalyptic.
>>383046164
lunaris 3 was their base of human experimentation, all the corpses and blood was justified. It's basically the durance of hate except bigger, but to a degree that it's almost cartoonish.

>>383020290
go play babbysouls if you like "reading" so much

>>383046940
Nah zelda controls and twin stick shit are awful. Being limited to only directions instead of actual points in space is crippling.

>>383042490
D2 is fun sure, but not nearly as fun as it used to be. You're not going to sink any serious time into it ever again.
D2's appeal was never about it being the "pinnacle" of something, even though at the time it had great gameplay (which has since become average at best), but because it was a jump-in jump-out online game, with fucktons of wacky loot (which was novel at the time), a great skill system, and autists could enjoy the end game runs, grinding for whatever piece of gear they needed for a build, jew trade simulator, and tuning builds.

>>383037765
The Incal and Metabarons have been translated and those are his best ones - you might have to import them from the UK though

>>383047648

this is just wrong
with Diablo style controls you are basically not even in control of your character directly you are merely in control of the pathing system that then dictates how your character actually moves
imagine playing a bullet hell game where instead of just using directional movement you clicked on points that your ship then pathed to on its own
it would be infinitely less precise and basically make the game just impossible to play

>>383047648
Twin sticks does suck, but so does click-to-move. Single analog and mouse would be the best possible control scheme for a Diablo game.

>>383037637
Complexity is the difference.

>>383048729
>forgetting based technopriests

>>383048857
Did you play Battlerite? Those controls are not enjoyable.

>>383048765
These games rarely ever use pathing for character movement. Usually you just move int he direction you click. Clicking just too far and then going off in some other direction to find a way around an obstacle is just insane and doesn't happen.

>>383010296

Something other than a fantasy setting, combat that is a little more involved.

Fuck just give Helldivers a loot system and you've got a good start.

>>383047109
>I don't get why you dislike act 2 for not being grimdark
I didn't say that. I just dislike it being a big boring open desert. It's just overall boring. The point I wanted to emphasize was that just act 2 was also mostly not grimdark(by way of mostly just being some desert as opposed to a ruined city or hellscape), not that I hated it because of it being not grimdark.

>I think making human enemies normal instead of possessed makes it less grimdark, not more.
Well It's like heroes killing demons that are invading the world vs criminals killing those who exiled them for their crimes. Most of the people you kill aren't even doing anything but listening to orders. I mean yeah there are other criminals and cannibals too but your character is in no position to judge them.

>lunaris 3
I didn't play the game whenever that existed. I thought you just typoed. Lunaris has 2 floors and the second one is the one with blood and stuff everywhere. Also they were experimenting on -living- people. Why have carts of corpses that weren't exploded or mutated? Were they just draining the blood out of them to put in the water?

>>383048556
>but not nearly as fun as it used to be. You're not going to sink any serious time into it ever again.
Don't project onto me.

Diablo is just an obsolete genre. The next Diablo game should be a proper 3D game, like Ninja Gaiden meets Dark Souls.

>>383049898
Well, click-to-move still blows man, it's really fucking bad and imprecise.
Pre-patch D3 really showed that off when some finesse was required to play the game and avoid ground shit and space control, and characters would zig when they should have zagged and get vaporized. Also, it's just imprecise; you click on a spot and they go slightly adjacent to it sometimes for some reason.

It's just one small problem with Diablo clones gameplay.

>>383049329
There's no complexity difference. It's just slapping down a bunch of premade rooms in some order, same as 2d.

>>383010482
terrible idea borderland tried it and it's crap

>>383050731
Okay, you're one of the small percentage of people that thinks this shit is still worth a fuck, when it's not -- it's definitely not.
30m people bought diablo and the AP is like few thousand daily peak or some shit.

That shows how many people give a fuck and couldn't get joy out of it like they could D2X.

>>383050796
This is some hot bait.

>Surely shallow mouseclick combat and pointless loot treadmills can't be the pinnacle of video game design?
They aren't, but that's all Diablo and its ilk ever were.

>>383050367
>I didn't say that. I just dislike it being a big boring open desert. It's just overall boring. The point I wanted to emphasize was that just act 2 was also mostly not grimdark(by way of mostly just being some desert as opposed to a ruined city or hellscape), not that I hated it because of it being not grimdark.
I like it, but I can understand why some people think it's boring. It felt dangerous enough to me, and the tombs were well done too. It's not like it was more boring than the grasslands or the jungle (though the grasslands hold a special place in my heart).

And most of the PCs are not really bad criminals, it was clear that the theocracy that ruled oriath started to exile people for everything just so they could feed their human experiments and become gods. The duelist just killed a noble in a duel, the marauder was an enslaved barbarian, the ranger was a poacher, the templar was accused of heresy, the scion was forced into marriage but killed her husband instead. Shadow is an asshole though and the witch is psychotic, but the PCs aren't all bad. Also lunaris 3 is the final lunaris floor, they just fused 1 and 2 into lunaris 1 a while ago, I forgot that. But either way the corpses are for the human experiments, even if there might be a small plot inconsistency regarding them.

>>383051373
What are you trying to say?

>>383052049
>just killed
>but killed

I mean like maybe the maruader and templar have arguments but come on.

>>383052639
just cause you kill someone doesn't mean you're some evil lowlife
duelist is a man of honor, ranger is just some primitivist anarchist, and I think the scion did it by accident or something

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>>383010482
>>383051214
>>383014252
>>383012873


Nobody remembers Hellgate: London

>>383010296
>"Save."
>Point-and-click movement that's sloppy as fuck compared to basically any modern arpg.
>Gameplay completely lacks anything resembling balance or skillful play, consisting of spamming a couple skills, blowing up weakling monsters by the boatload until you reach arbitrary gearwalls where you're killed instantly with no chance of saving yourself.
>Run optimized loot-gathering content all day for endgame.
>Best part of the genre is the Rube Goldstein Simulator where you jew people in trades.
Surely nobody thinks this shit can be salvaged, do they?

>>383052792
>just cause you kill someone doesn't mean you're some evil lowlife
There wasn't any justified reason. "Honor" isn't a reason to murder. "I don't wanna marry you" isn't a reason to murder. I mean they aren't all killing and eating and raping and stuff but they aren't in any way heroic, nor are their actions justified. You can even tell they're spinning their stories in an "I didn't do nothing" kind of way. In any case they're not heroic.

>>383052808
I tried it.
It fucking sucked.
>>383052639
The game is objectively antiquated and just not that fun anymore. You having fun with it places you into a small exception of people that still play it.

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>>383042490
>But it is "that D2 clone". It's not even really it's own thing, it's just a D2 clone

>>383053475
>That shows how many people give a fuck and couldn't get joy out of it like they could D2X.
What does that line mean though? Is D2X something different from D2?

>>383053593
Lord of Destruction.

>>383010296
Dragons dogma.

>>383053450
>"Honor" isn't a reason to murder.
talk shit get hit

but yeah the PCs are way more amoral than the Diablo pcs in general, though the threat is much less clear than in diablo

>>383053842
So it doesn't make sense at all.

>>383041672
>LoD was a flash in the pan, and was so successful due to it's innovation, but even then games have evolved so far from what something like Diablo represents, there's no going back except for a small hardcore audience that can't pull themselves away.
>PoE and D3 are better than D2X in many ways, but nobody gives an iota of fuck about these games, and nobody plays D2X.

>>383048556
>D2 is fun sure, but not nearly as fun as it used to be.

>>383051373
>30m people bought diablo and the AP is like few thousand daily peak or some shit.

>That shows how many people give a fuck
About Diablo 2 + LoD
>and couldn't get joy out of it like they could D2X.
They can't get as much joy out of LoD as they could out of LoD?

Or did you somehow get form talking about "D2X" to comparing it with D2 vanilla or D1?