> Roguelike is okay and accepted as a real genre > Soulslike

Still waiting for a good "Soulslike" game to be made

>>382984001
salt and sanctuary

Someone quick! Make a picture with all souls likes so we can rate them
Or just tell me some

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>>382984001
Hollow Knight

>>382985947
Crash Bandicoot

>>382983926
please dont tell me that soulslike is nothing more than

"it's a harder than average videogame"

Roguelike is a very distinct style of gameplay. "Soulslike" games are just any game people think is challenging.

>>382986123
I'm not a big fan of the term roguelike but I can definitely agree with this at least holy shit. At least with roguelike I can get a general idea of what the game might be unlike soulslike or the especially retarded roguelite.

>>382986123
LotF was distinctly Soulslike, albeit not very good.

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>>382983926
Both are dumb in my opinion "1stgame-like" is retarded as a whole genre name.
>clocktower-likes
>streetfighter-likes
>outrun-likes
>pong-likes
>DMC-likes

Jesus fuck, say like enough and the word becomes annoying. Anyway, that said, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks because once a community has decided what its called its hard to shake off. Thats how we get ultimate redundant terms like "character-action" because it is an action game... Involving characters... Holyshit we are all dumb.

>>382986115
>>382986123
I'd say it's more like something that has all or most of the following:
-collect some form of currency by killing enemies
-lose all currency on death with the ability to recollect it
-currency is spent on making the player or equipment stronger
-world has distinct safe areas as checkpoints
-lots of boss enemies

>>382986123
>Roguelike is a very distinct style of gameplay.
and yet people still call non-roguelike games after it

But aren't souls games Metroidvania?

>>382987341
and people still call smash a fighting game, retards will be retards

>>382986035
I hate that comparison, but it has a decent amount to back it up.
>atmosphere
>check points
>easily punished healing
>continuous world
>shortcuts
>parries
>ifame dodges
>npcs on quests
>currency lost on death
>how dialog works
>rings (charms)
>weapon reinforcement
>tons of optional bosses and dead ends

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>soulsbourne
>metroidvania
don't do this

>>382988005

Soulsborne refers specifically to Demon and Dark Souls plus Bloodborne, not a genre.

>>382988394
I don't care, don't do it

>>382988005

>metroidvania

You mean Zeldertale?

>>382988442

Well, thanks for your opinion.

I consider soulslike to be a sub-genre of metroidvania games

>>382983926

> Roguelike is okay and accepted as a real genre
> Soulslike isn't

well, maybe that's because there are 4 games in the whole genre.

People didn't give MGS its own genre, even though Kojima tried to meme it by writing it on the box. Souls games are just ARPGs, man.

>>382984001

>Souslike

Because being "hard" is the only defining feature that makes a souls game stand out. However, souls games aren't really "hard". The people who think they are are underage kiddies who never played any video games in the 80s and 90s. Just about every game on the nes, and many on the snes and ps1 all had the same difficulty that souls has. They generally didn't hold the player's hand and explain every little detail to them, didn't tell them where to go, and death could be very sudden and instantaneous.

Souls difficulty is just similar to older style games. It does absolutely nothing special and if it were released back in the 80s and 90s (with the same level of graphics as games from those times) it would have just been another game from that era, but a rather bland and unmemorable one.

Roguelikes typically have one appeal, which amounts to a very simple trapping of two or three elements (randomization, extreme difficulty, minor rollover of progress). You can apply that to a lot of formats and the people that want that experience won't care. Personally, I hate Roguelikes, but they're hard to completely fuck up.

Souls itself was a small mess of a game that itself didn't get a lot of things right. It also had different appeals. For some, it was difficulty. For others, it was the interconnected world. For still others, it was the odd delivery of the story, or weapon variety. People keep making "Soulslikes," but the only thing exactly like Dark Souls 1 is Dark Souls 1. Even 2 and 3 are very dissimilar to the first game. Nevermind all the ripoff titles that lift their favorite elements while ignoring the others.

Basically: Roguelikes are a simply formula that can be applied to a lot of things. Soulslikes are trying to follow a formula that doesn't even exist.

>>382989028
>It does absolutely nothing special

Even you don't believe that

Souls clones aren't too numerous or very popular. Once one of that changes, people will start using it more.

You don't hear Zelda-like either to describe 3D Zelda copies because Okami and Darksiders are about the only two competent ones out there.

>>382989137

What do souls games do that's special? Please tell me. The invader mechanic that every single casual on this board who summons 3 phantoms to clear the game for them absolutely abhors and immediately stars mocking whenever its brought up? That's about the only thing I can think of. Anything else was already done decades ago and done much better.

If souls were released in the 80s or early 90s console it would have been completely unremarkable.

>>382983926

Because when you scratch the surface of the souls' games, you realise that they're more akin to rhythm games than RPGs, and based solely around pressing the right buttons when you see the right on-screen prompts, in the right pattern to win.

You might think this is a bit of a stretch, but the strategy guides contain frame-by-frame animation guides for how to properly "dance" with the bosses, and while RPGs are governed by choice, these games are governed by correct responses.

It's why autists get into them so much. The problem is that they're pretty and interesting, so non-autists pick them up too and mistake the rigid, punishing structure of conformity for difficulty.

The problem with souls like or souls clones is if they aren't made by fromsoft the souls fags I'll hate it.
I like lords of the fallen and the surge but fromsoft shills shit on them

>>382989350

>Because when you scratch the surface of the souls' games, you realise that they're more akin to rhythm games than RPGs, and based solely around pressing the right buttons when you see the right on-screen prompts, in the right pattern to win.

Very true for the boss fights especially. Roll, Roll, Roll, Roll, R1, R1, Roll, Roll, Roll. Especially so for Dark Souls 3.

>>382983926
They're fucking action games OP. Because they're a fad doesn't make them genre changing

>>382989508
That's because they're both mediocre to terrible games and you have really bad taste

>>382983926
What's the difference between rogue and rogue like?

>>382989508

I assume you can't summon 3 players to beat the game for you in those games? If so that's probably why the souls fags hate them.

>>382987243
This person gets it.

>>382989350
Maybe Bloodborne and 3. Dark Souls 1 is definitely not that.

That perception mainly came from them trying really hard to market the difficulty, and ramping up the bosses to be auto attack machines, while giving players a broken evasion button to compensate.

>>382989583
I like souls games way better but they're still fun
>>382989603
And no you can't do it, that's another reason most souls fags probably didn't like nioh unless they were sony shills

>>382989271
Everything. There's no other game that encompasses atmosphere, exploration, jigsawed plot and downright distress quite like Dark Souls.

It's not difficult for the sake of it, when you first play through the game you're supposed to feel hopeless after a boss has wiped you for the umpteenth time. You persist and overcome it, it's not like old action games where the focus is on skill.

>>382989271
Well by your supreme autist logic Paradox games, Dota, Castlevania or Diablo didn't do anything special either and yet everyone except maybe you has seen and understands when someone says grand strategy or MOBA or diablo clone. Souls games have lots of bosses, are designed to be more punishing and rewarding than average 3D action games, blood patch mechanic, stamina based combat and a checkpoint respawn system. Once all of these come together, you have the defining elements of a Souls game. Please do share the names of the numerous 80s and 90s games that had all these mechanics in one place, you dumb fuck.

What does Souls bring to the table that's an actual vital and nonoptional gameplay mechanic lke Rogue or Metroid? And how many games actually emulate it in the first place?

Monster Hunter and Phantasy Star Online are far more important to the core design of the online action RPG, but you dont see the rampant lust for calling it a legit subgenre in those fanbases. Heck.
>>382987243
>>382989632
Don't even realize they just described dungeon crawlers and hardcore RPG rules. And only one rule off for stuff like Onimusha and Devil May Cry.

>>382990318

Souls baby sperging out because his "hard game" really is babby's first game where the game itself doesn't hold your hand. Good thing you can summon 3 phantoms to hold your hand in the game's place though!

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>>382990461
>Playing souls for 'difficulty'
>Using summons first playthrough

>>382990974

You just described every souls fan on //v/

>>382983926
bitch its castlevania in 3d

>>382991115

This. Except none of them are quite as good as curse of darkness.

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>>382989350
Then literally everything but visual novels and turn-based rpgs are rhythm games if your only criteria are "if you push the right button at the right time in response to an onscreen prompt then you succeed" with the only difference being how severely the player is punished for wrong inputs and failure.

Most other modern games just let you fuck up more before you lose than Souls games do with botched inputs. If Souls is a rhythm game then so are Fighting games, Platformers, Shooters, and even shit like Zelda and the (most recent/post Morrowind) Elder Scrolls games.

>mistake the rigid, punishing structure of conformity for difficulty

Don't tell me you're the type of person that thinks that experience grinds and timesinks are what makes a game hard, and not complex combat mechanics (for some games) or strategic foresight (for other games), all of which demand something of the player other than just time spent running on a treadmill a-la Vanilla WoW, are you?

For you Vanilla WoW players I am not saying managing a successful 40+ man roster of of raid-ready players and keeping that effort going for a solid year straight with no relent wasn't hard. What I AM saying, is that that was the only hard part of Vanilla WoW.

>>382992459

Nope. It's about choice, and how many different ways you can complete the tasks in-game. Souls games are built around the fact that there are VERY linear strategies, especially for bosses. Taking one of your examples, let's say...fighting games. You're against an AI who is designed not to have singular attack patterns, to run differently depending on which character you are playing, etc. If you're vs a human player, then they're worlds apart. Shooters, same deal. It's possible to minmax these things if you're a human player, but it's a lot harder in a shooter where cover, teammates and random powerups often come into play.

>Don't tell me you're the type of person that thinks that experience grinds and timesinks are what makes a game hard

I didn't say anything about that. I think maybe you are misunderstanding me.

>>382991115

pretty good description 2bh

but castlevania already has a genre spawned around it. does it need two?

>>382992849

No, souls games are metroidvania. down to the ground.

>>382984001

>Salt and Sanctuary
>The Surge
>Dark Souls 2 Admit it, that's all it is.

>>382992990
Yeah, you get lots of special abilities in Souls games that let you access new areas and treasure chests in already explored areas and shit.

>>382993140

You get keys and abilities that open new areas, sure. Are you telling me that ringing the bells in DS1 doesn't open sen's fortress? Or that you don't have to fight the four bosses to use the lordvessel to open the kiln?

>>382987129
Someone just needs to come up with a better name. Like how we used to call First-person Shooters "Doom Clones" or "Wolfenstein Clones".

>>382983926
Generally there needs to be some other (decent) games made by other people to help solidofy it as a genre

A lot of the games like Souls are either uninspired or bad

It's actually called Roguelite, just sayin

>>382983926
I would consider "soulslike" an appropriate term, but the amount of games that it can accurately be applied to is too small.
For example:
Lords of the Fallen
The Surge
Nioh
Salt and Sanctuary

That's it, isn't it? Or have I missed any?

>>382990318
Going off on an especially autistic tangent here, but "Grand Strategy" is not a term invented to describe Paradox strategy games. It is a level of war like "Operational" or "Tactical". There are wargames at all of these levels and there have been for longer than anyone on /v/ has been alive.

>>382993297
So any game with locked areas and keys is a metroidvania? Are Resident Evil and Onimusha metroidvanias as well? Morrowind? Vampire Bloodlines? I learn interesting shit on /v/ every day.

>>382989028
>PS1 games are hard.
>SNES games are hard.
How to spot an '09er that never played SNES/PS1.
Also, there are a number of features that clearly define a souls game and thier clones, such as; arpg, nonlinear world/levels, emphasis on bosses, emphasis on mitigating damage (this is actually pretty unique for rpgs which rely almost always on healing and/or absorbing), regular mobs capable of destroying the player in seconds, learning boss patterns (also pretty unique in RPGs).

>>382993891

No, that's just the small part you picked on. They also include progression through a variety of very different levels with a cohesive link, levelling systems, upgrades and item farming, and more besides.

>>382989028
Go ahead and show me a popular 80s/90s arpg that has an emphasis on blocking, dodging, countering, etc. and actually plays good.

>>382993767
dark maus

>>382993892
>Also, there are a number of features that clearly define a souls game and thier clones, such as; arpg, nonlinear world/levels

So we can agree Dark Souls 3 was shit then.

In this thread we list things Dark Souls 2 did that were far better than Dark Souls 3. I'll start:

>No bonfire and no death challenge where you can beat the game without resting at a bonfire or dying to gain a reward and bragging rights

>Non-linear first half of the game allows you to rush straight to the areas of the game that contain the items for your build

>Chugging Estus immobilizes you, and the heal isn't instantaneous meaning trying to chug while someone is sticking close to you will result in death

>Stamina regeneration is tied to weight, so a character at 10% burden will recover their bar faster than a character at 70% burden, giving an advantage and a reason to make a low burden character

>Poise exists and armor provides relevant, but not overpowering damage reduction, giving an advantage and a reason to make a high burden character

>Phantoms and Dark Spirits cannot chug estus, spirits can only heal via spell useage which is slow. This makes fighting outnumbered even without mob assistance possible since any damage you do sticks

>Can only perform four rolls before running out of stamina

>Can only perform 5 attacks of a rapier or straight sword before running out of stamina

>Parrying has longer recovery frames and consumes more stamina, making parry fishing riskier and makes parrying require higher skill

>Power stance allowing for unique combinations of dual wielding and unlocking an alternative moveset for weapons

>Being able to use the full moveset of a weapon in your off-hand including running, rolling, backstepping, etc. attacks rather than just being able to do a basic R1 swing and blocking with the weapon as it is in Ds3 (lmao who would ever want to weapon block)

>Bell Tower covenant providing two unique optional areas to PvP for Titanite Chunks, Slabs, and Twinkling, making farming for upgrades fun

>Bonfire ascetics to replay bosses you like and or gain items from NG+ and beyond without grinding through the whole game again

>>382993767
Necropolis, Eitr

>>382989271
>What do souls games do that's special?

Having constant and continuous 'live' gameplay that prevents pausing, auto-saves over your savefile all the time, allows invasion mechanics and results in your actions having (semi)-permanent consequences beyond your death, importing MMO style gameplay into an exploration focused single player action-RPG and doing it excellently.

I think the problem is 'souls like' games rarely understand what makes a Souls game. The focus is always on difficult combat and stamina management rather than immersive, environmental story telling or well designed enemy placement. They focus on what they think people want from DS; difficulty, rather than what makes that difficulty fun to play.

>>382994001
No, that's the part you picked. But since you're moving the goalposts, when do you need leveling and item farming to progress in Dark Souls? Nor did I need these in any Castlevanias I played.

>>382994341
>since you're moving the goalposts

Those "goalposts" have existed for years. Stop being silly. I didn't define metroidvanias, did I?

>when do you need

The game contains them, and just because it's a challenge to NOT use them doesn't mean they magically don't exist.

>>382987593
>and people still call smash a fighting game

Because 'fighting games' shouldn't be a special snowflake genre that's entirely defined by the conventions of one game, and with anything else about martial arts multiplayer vs fighting having to come up with their own alternate genre to pigeonhole themselves into. And don't for a minute pretend that 'brawler' and 'party game' aren't outright derogatory bullshit or that 'combat sports simulation' is meaningfully different.

>>382994082
Dark Souls 3 is shit for a number of reasons, but this is certainly one of them.

>>382994152
Eitr is the only one I wanted to play.

>>382994445
You didn't define them, you just use it for games that have practically nothing in common with games described as metroidvanias everywhere.

Well Morrowind and Gothic contain all those too so they're totally a metroidvania by your logic, right?

>>382990339
Stamina-management.

>>382994661

>practically nothing in common with

okay, you might as well stop there, m8. There's no point in me hammering over single points just so you can dance around them in a vague effort to avoiding say "anon you have a point".

>>382983926
the problem is that roguelike has been ruined as a genre name

now people put permanent death in something and call it a roguelike when there's nothing else in there

tons of roguelites are being made but very few roguelikes, at least well made ones

last roguelike with a budget ive played was dredmore, and even that wasn't that great, roguelikes are pretty much dead as a genre

i want to like caves of qud so much but the more i play it the more i realize i don't like roguelikes that much in their current form

i want the super mario bros of roguelikes to come out, we're still stuck on fucking pitfall

>>382994837
But you're the only one dancing around things. Again, Morrowind and Gothic have everything you listed as genre defining features, yet you ignored the question because somewhere deep down even you realize how stupid it is to say that these games or Souls are metroidvanias.

>>382995320

>Morrowind and Gothic have everything you listed as genre defining features

morrowind and gothic are defined more by their open world RPG elements, which is why they're defined as such.

>>382995392
The game still contains them, and just because you think other features are more important doesn't mean they magically don't exist. Hmm, sounds familiar.

>>382995549
>just because you think other features are more

It's nothing to do with me. They're larger, more important features to the game as a whole?

>Hmm, sounds familiar.

Not quite the "gotcha" moment you seem to be looking for. Might want to put your cock down for a second.

>>382995756
You mean like how the largest and most important feature from metroidvania games is missing from Souls and Gothic and that's why no one aside from you would try to go through mental gymnastics to call these games metroidvanias?

>>382995970

Good job saying what that feature is.

>that's why no one aside from you would try to go through mental gymnastics to call these games metroidvanias?

I am not even the only person saying it in this THREAD.

>>382994558
hahah this retard actually thinks nintenpedo shit is a fighting game

>Because 'fighting games' shouldn't be a special snowflake genre that's entirely defined by the conventions of one game

it clearly isnt seeing as 3d games like tekken make the cut, your pedo simulator simply isnt a fighting game, its a party game/ multiplayer platformer

>>382989028
Not sure if copypasta or completely fucking retarded

>>382995970
>you would try to go through mental gymnastics to call these games metroidvanias?

yeah man nobody has the right to try to define your special toys. they're special.

>>382989128
I can see you have no idea what a roguelike is

>>382983926
Becuase souls are just a variation of action rpg, it does not have strict rules as a rouge-like has, so it's just a gimmick to try to trick fans of the souls games, souls-like is pretty much just "Hard game"

>>382989603

Please don't lump all dark souls players into the same category.

I've completed all the from software souls titles and bloodborne and I've done so in the same way, which is picking the class that starts with the least equipment/items in each title and zero summoning of other players or npcs. The only time I've played online in a souls game is when I'm being summoned by another player.

Are you all seriously THAT retarded or is this whole thread just one huge shitposting-fest?

A Soulslike features the following things
>1 Singular, interconnected world with next to no loading screens that seperate areas
>Stamina Management
>Attack/Block/Counter/Dodge combat
>Usually having to learn a boss's moveset
>Your Weapons have diffrent movesets
>Weapon Scaling
>(almost) every weapon/armor-set is viable throughout the entire game
>Equipment can be upgraded
>Huge emphasis on the player's own skill instead of the charcarter's level/skill-points
>Light/Heavy attacks + Block and/or counter
>Generally more slower, tactical combat instead of button smashing

>>383001120
Don't forget loss of currency upon death, but able to retreive it once

>>382987243
I'm pretty certain this describes Sonic adventure 2 battle, or Sonic in general. Dark souls is a sonic-like.

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Dark Souls is a JRPG.

>>383001483
>sonic is a dwgr faggot
who would have quessed

>>382987243
You are describing every fucking action rpg ever you retard

>>382994125
>Chugging Estus immobilizes you, and the heal isn't instantaneous meaning trying to chug while someone is sticking close to you will result in death
eh, ds3 is faster than 2, so faster estus is kinda required, also your stam regen is lowered during chugging in ds3, whereas it continues normally in ds2

>Can only perform four rolls before running out of stamina
pontiff has a 6 hit combo...
but rolling in high level pvp is just silly so yeah

all of my yes for the rest tho

>>383001120
>metroidvania mechanic
>mh mechanic
>mh mechanic
>mh mechanic
>mh mechanic
>finally somethinf different
>mh mechanic
>mh mechanic
>mh mechanic
>mechanic of some weapons in my
>mh play style
you just described monster hunter with a metroidvania world and a few RPG elements. You also left out the only things that set the souls games apart from other mh clones and 3d action games:

>currency from killing and lost on death but able to be reclaimed
>invaders and phantoms

>>382984001
Bloodborne

rougelike is a stupid fucking name
so is souls like

>>382983926
Everybody stop throwing shit! I'll be the judge since everybody are throwing shit, whether they are correct and wrong
First we have this dude
>>382989028 which has some good points but also misses. First thing is true, new games are casualfests with markerpoints, exact description of your goal, etc. Souls games aren't too difficult, when you're facing tough boss you might just run around farming easier enemies and upgrading your weapons, there are multiple bosses that could be beaten by doing just that. But Souls games DOES things different, and comparing this to any other game from 90s won't give you full picture.
>>382989271
You're talking about /v, people that hate socializing and play mostly offline.
>>382989550
Pretty slow action game, most people complain about clunkiness and slow progression. It's nowhere close to typical action games like Darksiders or DMC for example.
>>382999195
This man has a solid opinion and is correct
>>383001120
Very goo d definition of Souls games
This anon
>>382994837
>>382994445
>>382994001
>>382993297
>>382995392
>>382992990
is being either retarded or pretending to be, his opinion is just wrong, anon debating him has valid counterarguments in my opinion. Metroidvanias have more focus on gaining new abilities, you could debate whether Darksiders is a Metroidvania or LoZ with more action emphasis, but that does not apply to Souls.
>>382991115
Too general. Early Castlevania, late castlevania, new type of Castlevania?
>>382992459
That's what happens when you start arguing with spergs. You'll get "FPS is just click to win" opinions or that fun is not allowed in games etc.
>>382989350
Autismoking, please tell us that playing on keyboard or guitar is just like videogames, but without video. This anon opinions are bait or he's retarded.
>>382989271
Anon is buttblasted and that shows.You can summon phantoms, but nobody forces you to do it. You can also be invaded which gives additional difficulty spike.

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>>383003805
>I'll be the judge

>>382983926
Should be King's Fieldlike

What genre is Rogue?

>>383004149
You cannot say that I did a bad job anon, so why complain about it in first place?

>>383004485

>You cannot say that I did a bad job anon

Well, you seemed to pick over every post and say basically nothing other than "You are right", "you are wrong" or "you are a sperg/autismal/retarded"

You think you're special, but you're just late to the party.

>>383004781
Still, giving validity to correct opinions is necessary, and disregarding shit opinions too. Otherwise shitposters will win with retarded opinions, since usually reasonable people will evntually get tired and go away with bad taste of another day on /v. That's why most people are disappointed with this site, shitposters are getting their (you)s when in fact they need only one.

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When will 3d beat 'em ups come back? I want my shaolin monks sequel.

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>>383005441
>correct opinions

>>382994803
it's not a souls invention

>>383005441
I don't even know what side you stand on but I can tell you're autistic and retarded

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>>382983926
Roguelike is accepted because 99% of people that have encountered/used the term have never ever played Rogue, nor do they know what sort of game it was. The Souls series on the other hand is a modern and fairly popular series, so shallow and poorly devised comparisons are more easily noticed by more people.

>>383005947
Semantics, some anons are right, other are wrong. Better?
>>383006970
The side of righteousness of course. You cannot judge people when being corrupted or sentenced to prison. Also
>namecalling
>in a shitposting thread
Wow, I'm hurt really bad right now. I don't know when I'll recover, if ever.

>>382993826
I wish there was a game with all the three levels. Like, you play a grand strategy game, but you can (and should, for better outcome) switch to particular fronts, then to particular battles. That would be so much fun.

Being able to engage in combat in first person would be nice too, but that's too much to ask as it would require creating separate engines and mechanics for strategy gameplay and tactical fps gameplay, and allow quick and preferably seemless switching between rts and fps