Why are mages almost always stronger than melee characters in

Lvl 1 Barbarians hack things apart clumsily.
lvl 99 Barbarians hack things apart more efficiently

Lvl 1 Mages cast fireball
lvl 99 Mages Unlock the secrets of the universe. Tear their enemies apart at the molecular level and then have their molecules explode.

>>382951014
Lvl99 barbarians are killing machines with incredible willpower able to resist almost any spell and smart fuckers who wait for their chance to strike.

Unles your level 99 wizard is dr Manhattan strong he's fucked.

>>382952080
Lvl99 Mage summons a meteorite destroying the whole continent
Lvl99 Barbarian can chop down trees easily

>>382952337
Lvl 99 Barbarian can survive the meteorite. And he'll be coming for you.

>>382950735
Because someone capable of harnessing the primal forces of the universe is objectively more powerful than a sword swinging monkey.
It's the same retarded dilemma as pitting an armored knight against some dude with an assault rifle.

File: 400px-Red_mage_concept_art1.png (270KB, 400x563px) Image search: [Google]

270KB, 400x563px

i've always played melee dick ass rogue classes but i started playing rdm in stormblood and it's really changing my mind on mages

>>382952337
Lvl 99 Barbarian hits the meteorite back at the Mage with his club.

>swing sord gud
Vs
>de-atomize you, your dog, and your neighbor with a single word
Gee I wonder anon

>>382950735
>literally just a guy
vs
>literally a guy, plus he can cast magic

Not hard to figure out who'll win

Are barbarian shouts considered spells?

>>382952440
>>382952570
>Lvl99 Mage throws the sun at Barbarian while protecting everything else
fried meat

>>382952741
No, but barbarian farts are.

>>382952539
You underestimate the power of a barbarian.
A mage spent his life trying to unravel the secrets of the universe and can use them well.

A barbarian has spend his whole life learning to swing his sword. His. entire. fucking. life.
Now imagine a guy who has the experience of a thousand battles, many of which were against mages, vs a skilled mage who has never experienced battle.

because if the game has any semblance of mechanics, the warrior and archer will be able to do nothing but shoot and hit while the wizard can use spells made specifically to bypass these mechanics.

>>382950735
mages in baldur's gate are pretty OP

but the mages in Diablo i and II are worse. I don't think the mages in Everquest are bad, but I know for a fact they're retardedly overpowered in Lineage.

>>382952770
Lvl 99 Barbarian hits the sun back at the mage with his club

File: 1499133586570.gif (1MB, 184x141px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 184x141px

>>382952925
>Barbarian advances on Mage.
>Mage knows about it because he cast a spell to alert him to any threats.
>Barbarian charges at mage.
>Mage stops time, opens hole into the Beyond,
>Barbarian is thrown into another dimension and never seen from again.
>Barbarian tears hole through dimensional boundaries through sheer force of rage.
>Mage nods, impressed.
>Both team up and get bitches and beer.
>One night, after much feasting and drinking, Mage and Barbarian end up fucking.
>Unholy child from the Union is created.
>The Battle Mage.

>>382952925
Now imagine that guy being teleported into space where he can't breath with a single thought.

>>382952925
>a guy who has the experience of a thousand battles, many of which were against mages, vs a skilled mage who has never experienced battle.
Yeah, of course, a lvl 99 barbarian against a lvl 10 mage would and should win. But at the archmage level (let's say lvl 75+) the result should be moot, if the magic system is not artificially nerfed just to be "fair and balanced".

>>382953205
>Lvl99 Mage sends barbarians to another dimension filled with non ending hellspawns
Beat this

>>382953379
I like the way you think.

>>382950735
I wish. Mages are just damage with different colored particle effects.
I want to cast a fireball and the group I targeted is twisted smoking shells after. I want to summon an earth golem that just tears down a fortress' walls.

>>382953205
Lvl 99 Mage turns rocks into exact copies of the BArbarian to fight for him.
>Barbarian now is fighting multiple copies of himself and a mage.

I hate it, but Mage is just the be-all end-all of the Fantasy universe without knowing the limitations of Magic. If we're talking DnD, Wizard is only challenged by Cleric and Druid, and it's still in the Wizard's favor.

>>382953379
the weird thing is, both were men
a child just popped into existence through the sheer intensity of their fucking

File: 18778.jpg (17KB, 85x112px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 85x112px

>>382953493
>LVL 99 barbarian survives the dimension and returns as lvl 999 barbarian.

Usually there is a rock paper scissors kind of thing in games
Rogue beats Mage
Mage beats Warrior
Warrior beats Rogue

File: 1463002082035.jpg (24KB, 640x640px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 640x640px

>>382953698

>>382953731
If you played DnD, There is usually a Rock and Sissors kind of thing.
Casters beat Martials.
Martials beat no one.

File: seacat origin story.png (182KB, 830x974px) Image search: [Google]

182KB, 830x974px

>>382950735
Don't pretend you don't know why

>>382953731
Did you get this from Star Ocean 3?

>>382953432
"artificially nerfed" meaning "not a shitty setting that lets mages do whatever they want with no restrictions" right?

File: 1470495720162.jpg (41KB, 600x339px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 600x339px

>>382953698
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5JqLwyI70w

File: Evil Mage.png (845KB, 842x473px) Image search: [Google]

845KB, 842x473px

>>382953698
>Mage deletes barbarian from existence

video games are made by nerds. mages are the nerd self insert class. just think about it.

>main stat is intelligence
>learns new powers by reading books
>physically weak but uses magic to make himself strong
>low charisma but uses magic to make people do what he wants anyway

making mages stronger than fighters is the developers getting revenge for all the times the football team would steal their lunch money and make them think "if only magic was real things would be different."

File: 2_Gordon_Ramsay.jpg (370KB, 3200x1800px) Image search: [Google]

370KB, 3200x1800px

The better question is why are Paladins always shitty versions of warriors with shittier version of cleric spells in every game they exist in?

>>382954393
Something you guys don't take into account is willpower. A barbarian has so much willpower he'd be a great wizard if he tried. But he doesn't. Instead he swings his sword and kills shit. He'd survive that. Unless we're talking Chronomage here, then he's fucked

>>382954282
That is one way of putting it. I prefer "not a shitty setting where warriors can have the same hitpoints as a fortress wall". Surviving a d&d lvl 6 fireball is like surviving a granade blast at point blank. But melee mamoths apparently can do that unfazed.

>>382954495
Yeah, and the guy who invented the revolver was a butthurt nerd too. Too bad it never worked out and we still fight with swords and pointy sticks.

>>382954994
I like how you have a problem with non-casters surviving fireball, not with lvl 6 fireball being a grenade equivalent in the first place

File: 1499023510198.png (334KB, 308x459px) Image search: [Google]

334KB, 308x459px

>>382954495
>Using a trope that's existed for damn near ever in wester story telling is Devs getting revenge.

Sure anon.

I wish more games made you conduct research so you would have to perform overtly complex and convoluted rituals to unlocks special wizard powers that let you cast magical nonsensicalities and ridiculeries

There's so much whimsey missing from modern games

>>382955242
Look, it depends on the lore. If magic in this setting can unmake worlds and slay deities, it's retarded for physical types to even stand a chance. If the magic in the setting is the subtle mindfuck type, yeah, Conan can win easy peasy. Just saying that in most d&d settings you get the second case.

>>382956176
Sorry, I mean first case.

File: frostmourne hungers.jpg (56KB, 500x478px) Image search: [Google]

56KB, 500x478px

>>382953493
Giving the warrior his dream scenario.

>>382956271
If the setting fits the first case, then there is no reason for non-mages to be playable

>>382956653
Welcome to DnD. Where if your cast doesn't have "Spells per Day", you most likely have made yourself pointless.

>>382956653
Pretty much this, although at low level is reasonable for warriors to be better. If it's a low-mid level campaign, where the difference in power is not yet that glaring, it could work nicely. Oh, and you can use magic items and other gimmics to offset the disadvantages too.

>>382954232

Basically this. Mages are the fedoras of classes.

>lol fucking dumb warrior doesn't even try to be as civilised as m'self
>m'lady allow me to show you the secrets of the univ-
>REEEE why is she talking to that meathead doesn't she care how knowledgable and sophisticated I am?
>Fucking whores always ignore nice mages like me :((

A meeting of mages would really just be /r9k/.

>>382957519
Dude. It would literally be wizardchan.

>>382950735
Mages in games are usually pretty weak in comparison with their lore counterparts. In lore, a fighter usually needs trickery to defeat a (prepared) mage.

>>382950735
Because D&D 3rd edition developers thought that fighter characters are a trap option and that obviously spellcasting should be the tier 1 class, and a lot of uninspired developers put their combat system on the wheels of D&D - where warrior, no matter how much he advances, simply swings a sword better and faster, while a mage keeps unlocking more and more broken shit.

A warrior at high level should, generally, be able to do Herculean-level stuff; redirect rivers and level mountains with his bare hands. If not, he should at least be able to have a brand of reality defying of his own. Sometimes warriors get their own brand of powerful battlefield control, party buffing, teleportation etc. but it's flavored as being martial in nature.

It's just that most RPGs don't have engines advanced enough for your Warrior to be able to simply bash through walls to keep up with a fast-teleporting mage. And developers lack creativity for making everyone useful.

>>382959425
Sounds like weeb bulllshit to me

File: dbs.png (296KB, 1037x1037px) Image search: [Google]

296KB, 1037x1037px

>>382950735
Melee shits on magic in every Elder Scrolls game

File: win_hulk[1].gif (7KB, 256x176px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 256x176px

>>382959604
Nope. Look up the deeds done by mythological heroes, most of them undoubtedly being the basis of a mythical Warrior, Barbarian, Paladin, etc. Even some handbooks say that a Warrior player should feel like his end-game is becoming unto Achilles, Hercules, Roland -- rarely is it reflected in game, though. The deeds of godlike martials in Greco-Roman mythology were nothing short of outstanding.

I'm saying that if levels are supposed to be about progression and a 20 level wizard can wish for whatever he wants, summon lords of darkness into his realm and literally stop time, a 20 level warrior should have something more than +30 to hit, a ton of mostly redundant martial abilities, 4 attacks per round and all that. With all the Strength pumping you do whole game, you should at least be able to rock out like Hulk - jump massive distances, rip out tree trunks and toss them at an airborne enemy (many RPG systems have literally no answer for a warrior-type against a mage with a simple flight spell), leave a massive crater whenever you decide to crash into, tear apart walls, etc. etc.

>>382960115
>drinks an increasingly complex series of potions making myself better than you at everything
>teleport behind you
alchemy is magic . . . kid

>>382954232
Strange how these comics predicted how Adam Sessler would look after his coke problem

File: CHOOSE YOUR KNIGHT.jpg (1MB, 2868x3120px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2868x3120px

Why not both?

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=595d8946e4b097887907194b

>>382960271
>Max int gives you the treasures of the universe, that no mortal mind can reach.
>Max str makes you as strong as a human can be.

The problem is rooted in the stat balance, i guess. Also, quite shit tbqh famlam

File: GTB.jpg (63KB, 300x400px) Image search: [Google]

63KB, 300x400px

Leave magic users to me.

File: __dark_king_of_hyrule___by_ragaru-d4k4segggggggggggg.jpg (40KB, 736x914px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 736x914px

Is there such thing as an RPG where you're a demigod? Kind of like the power levels in DC Comics, like throwing suns at each other, or jumping towards the skies in a single jump?

>>382961134
Any JRPG endgame, especially Final Fantasy

>>382955208
underrated post

>>382960835
Except in many games max strength is only attainable by items that literally call themselves stuff like "Girdle / Elixir of Giant's Strength", which means that your maxed Strength should be head and shoulders above what a human can attain.

Also, come on, dude, we're playing a fantasy character. Let us be heroic. Our universe doesn't have a max level character in anything, even the most highly trained spec ops soldiers or whatever else you have in the world are probably somewhere around 20% of the power level of the typical video game protagonist. If you're in a fantasy universe and you're constanly slaying beasts and interacting with crazy shit and can harness insane rage or whatever else, you're certainly stronger than just "peak human".

Don't put your dragonslaying barbarian as an equal to some high-end /fit/izen.

Don't be like the designer of Pathfinder who decided that Gunslinger, an already gimmicky, gimped class whose entire schtick is having guns (mechanically they're crossbows that go boom), shouldn't have a cool quick-draw style move to improve their proficiency because they tried to have Steve from accounting do the move and he couldn't, so obviously it should be impossible for your wish fulfillment fantasy at home. With guys that pretend to slay dragons with magical swords and fireballs, and who can raise dead at a touch.

>>382961259
You only do that shit in cutscenes though, no?

File: 1499225512550.png (2MB, 1121x1600px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1121x1600px

>>382952551

File: this did 87 damage.jpg (37KB, 632x249px) Image search: [Google]

37KB, 632x249px

>>382961646
Well half the attacks *are* cutscenes

>>382957519
>not being like Raistlin Majere and transcending the need for pussy

>>382953570
>not launching a sodium elemental into the fort and casting rain afterwards

>>382961528
I said that, I dont know if it was clear. Its unfair, and a shame, that a spellcaster can reach heights that no physical class can. I also find boring that we have so many limitations in a fucking fantasy world.

>>382952440
How does he survive the meteorite, exactly? Oh that's right, he can't survive it with melee combat prowess, so you had to ascribe MAGICAL abilities to him for it to make sense.

File: 2342142-sorcererandamazon.jpg (299KB, 1972x1280px) Image search: [Google]

299KB, 1972x1280px

>>382962501
Any sufficiently advanced gains are indistinguishable from magic.

File: The fucking strongest.jpg (49KB, 576x659px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 576x659px

>>382960271
>>382961528
Honestly these, after a while melee characters need to be capable of some astounding feats if they hope to measure up to some nerd in a pointy hat who can somehow pull a tornado out of his ass.

>>382955521
wizards in western stories are mysterious old guys who give the hero advice. their magic is stuff like talking to animals and seeing the future and usually comes from the fact that they aren't human. the concept of a wizard as some guy who studied magic books until he could fart lightning and cast spells to do anything was entirely invented by fat dungeons and dragons nerds.

File: vlcsnap-2013-12-01-14h06m39s11.png (346KB, 720x540px) Image search: [Google]

346KB, 720x540px

>>382962501
He survives it by doing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8FvM8H_0-k

>>382950735
"us"?

in all seriousness, max level rogues beat out both chucklefuck meatheads and wizard nerds

whitebois cannot compete

>>382953586
>Lvl 99 Barbarian hits multiple copies of himself back at the mage with his club

>>382963560
Rogue>Warrior>Mage>Rogue

File: 1491255189706.jpg (8KB, 256x197px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 256x197px

>>382953586
>CoDZilla being beaten by wizards

>>382963785
>>382963789
>Lvl 99 Mage casts a meteor spell
>Lvl 99 Barbarian puts an eldritch beast into a full nelson hold
>Lvl 99 Rogue flawlessly hides from the fight

>>382963560
Only in WoW or other MMOs where rogues get the same +10 glowing purple scimitar shit everyone gets to keep things balanced.

>>382963789
Given that Rogue is often given a kit that is extremely good against casters (very bursty damage that can instantly kill a squishy mage, a bunch of tools to interrupt their spellcasting, attacking from stealth to make sure the mage can never spread his wings, etc.), that seems kinda inaccurate. Warriors usually don't beat mages unless it's an early level and mages are still wimps.

One game I can think of where physical stats stack better than magical stats is Heroes of Might & Magic 3, but even there, heroes are of, well, might and magic, so your absolute best character type is a guy with a ton of attack and defense and a decent amount of the magical stats to be able to cast strong, long-lasting buffs on your entire army throughout the fight. Straight-up mage is really good early game because lightning bolts and stuff eviscerate armies, but then direct damage just doesn't scale that well. So, the guy of choice is a distinguished battle mage type.

>>382963213
Not "us", US. It's a commie plot. Or a russian hacker plot, depending on how you swing politically. Pick the option that scares you the most.

The idea that mages should be more useful all around than melee classes has always struck me as absurd. If mages can summon giant meteors and blow up cities at max level through sheer force of mental fortitude, why can't a fighter lift mountains or create storms by swinging his sword really hard through sheer force of strength?

>>382964039
Eh, it depends. Way too many games give their "roguish" classes a toolbox kinda feel; you get them for a select few perks, utility and ease of use and not their combat prowess. In Baldur's Gate, for instance, a Thief is kinda unnecessary, but convenient - after all, you can just summon monsters over floor traps and bash locks open/facetank chest traps with a warrior. Roguish types only get good in most D&D derivatives if they're multiclasses.

Dragon Age: Origins had pretty decent rogues, mechanically, if I recall. Good enough to show their worth in Nightmare difficulty, anyway.

>>382953731
I always like this sort of logic, but it never really works that way.

>>382957519
Fuck you, I just want to fire lasers at everything.

>>382964550
I actually remember enjoying being a rogue in DAO, I had a good OoC kit that could get me in doors and such while also being able to hold my own against darkspawn

>>382964725
Play toho.

>>382964492
Many games postulate that it's because a warrior is there to protect the weak and wimpy mage during his levelups. It evokes this "team party" feel - warrior is here to protect our asses so that I can have his back when I get my Fireball!

The problem is that many games can simply bypass this requirement and you can go full-on spellcaster cheese by simply knowing your spells. Even in D&D, where a level 1 mage is pretty trash, he still can single-handedly win an encounter with a Sleep spell, and will potentially do a lot more in an encounter against, say, an archer atop a modest cliff than a guy with just a sword.

And even then, only being able to declare "I attack with my sword" is boring in the late game, and so is having to go "mother may I" with your spellcasters' buffs so that you can feel good again about the damage on your sword.

>>382963972
>Lvl 99 Mage summons a hoard of elemental soldiers
>Lvl 99 Barbarian rages so hard he shatters reality
>Lvl 99 Rogue steals the Mage's and Barbarian's levels, returning them to level 1. While he's at it, he also steals their wives, property, titles, and wallets.

>>382965060
>you cannot steal the mage's bitcoin wallet though
checkmate, atheists!

>>382954571
Willpower doesn't determine spells, intellect does

>D&D=3.5e

I want this meme to stop.

File: mm6-2[1].png (307KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

307KB, 640x480px

>If you rolled a Knight, he becomes deadweight really early
>best party is a mix of Clerics and Sorcerers
>Sorcerers quickly learn a spell that is basically a shotgun that you can spam to unleash pellets of metal on enemies
>dungeons turn into Doom
>learn flying and meteor shower
>fly around the countryside bombing titans

>>382950735
Because they can do magic motherfucker.

File: Blazing Star.gif (2MB, 643x485px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 643x485px

>>382964839
I do.

Dragons Dogma really shat on this hard. At early game fighters and warriors were one of the best classes due to reliable damag output, but after enemies get increasingly high melee resistance, you will have no choice but to use spell casting vocations.

>>382962501
In a world were you can train your brain to perform magical feats I'm sure you can train your body to withstand magical feats.

>>382965256
You can go through Dragon's Dogma without any magic. Only a handful of enemies will be a problem.

>>382965289

You can, but you will need magic to do so. Most OP warriors in fantasy games were spellblades anyway.

>>382965209
Yeah, but this is /v/, and 3rd edition had a fuckton of games. Even BG2 had a whole bunch of shit that was hamfisted into it from the 3rd edition, and it worked out about as well as you'd expect, with a Sorcerer in a small party being able to learn how to stop time while still in Chapter 2.

Only in 4e does it seem that the endgame of the wizard isn't to become the party's capo.

>>382952080
>barbarians
>smart fuckers
lmao

A lot of the time the melee classes are spruced up with magical attributes. Just because they aren't actively casting spells doesn't mean they aren't magically altered in some way. High end fighters are typically equipped with enchanted gear or have some kind of protective blessings and spells. And in the case of barbarians their strong emotions often border on magic outright. I can't really think of any game or system where melee or fighter classes are literally just a guy in armor with a sharp stick while mages are all powerful gods. The fighters utilize magic in a different way than mages. Where they lack understanding and finesse they substitute with brute techniques.

File: arnold-schwarzenegger-conan-the-barbarian[1].jpg (514KB, 640x939px) Image search: [Google]

514KB, 640x939px

>>382965471
Even if your intelligence isn't too high you will still gain a fuckton of skills just from all the experiences you've seen around in the world. Chalk it up to instincts if nothing else.

Also, pic related certainly was not stupid.

>>382965471
Just a Mage is smart with spells, a Barbarian is smart with combat.

>not a barbarian mage masterace

>>382965251
Ah, you are a man of culture too.

>>382965471
>He's never read Conan the Barbarian.
It's actually kind of funny, in the original Conan stories, Conan was displayed as the intelligent, cunning one while his foes (often wizards or sorcerers) were insane, barbaric, and foolish. In fact, he usually defeated his magical foes through wit and planning rather than might.
And now we just see Barbarians as dumb brutes that muscle their way through every problem.

>>382954495
>low charisma
>what is a sorcerer
Literally being so fabulous you can bullshit magic out of your ass.

>>382965390
3.5e is the only one that has real caster supremacy.

>>382952770
Lvl99 barbarian eats the sun, converts it to heavy metals in his stomach via nuclear fusion, and shits out solid projectiles at the mate which he cannot block

>>382963075
Reee normieeee!!!
>somewhere, someone is writing this seriously and unironically

>>382965390
>Only in 4e does it seem that the endgame of the wizard isn't to become the party's capo.
And that is why I'll forever stick to the mess that is 2nd edition.

Broken is fun.
Balance is a lie.
Rule exploitation is strength

>>382963075
>Implying the nerds that made DnD came up with any original concepts.
They basically stole their magic system from Jack Vance, and the concept of wizards being these assholes who could spew fire and fart lightning was already fairly popular in pulp fiction.

>>382965787
You're right, I don't read garbage.

Dragons Dogma has the best showing ic this mage vs warrior tging the warrior is the hardest most grueling class to play but also the most rewarding whail mage is also fun

>>382964390
What if I'm actually a communist so I have no problem with an election in the US being tampered with? (I always main mage, btw)

Because most devs are nerds, IE the people who would most likely be mages in a fantasy setting. They're often more interested in wish fulfillment than making a balanced game.

Or I dunno people are dumb and can only think "high level melee = hitting things the same way but harder".

>what is mag resist
>what is magical shields

The only way to know who is the strongest is by rolling the dice

>>382967431
>I always main mage, btw
Then you are an okay guy in my book. You get to choose your own scenario.

File: 1427210099775.png (2MB, 933x1352px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 933x1352px

>>382967704
>Be a Knight, birthed 24 years ago, been training with the blade my entire life, at peak physical condition.
>On the day I was to be wed, a wizard kidnaps my waifu.
>Strap on my magic resistant armor, sheathe my magic warded blade, grab my magic reflecting shield, and ride out into the night on my steed.
>Find the mage's abode, step inside his sex dungeon, find him preparing to lay my wife.
>Unsheathe my blade and put up my shield, prepared to slay the bastard. I've been training my entire life for this moment.
>He hears me approach, turns around, and stares me down for a moment, thoughtfully stroking his massive beard while his darting eyes look up and down my equipment.
>"Forcecage"
>He proceeds to fuck my wife while I'm forced to watch from my magical prison.

Fucking wizards.

File: noice.png (21KB, 500x336px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 500x336px

>>382969064

>>382950735
Then we have Persona Q
Magic is dogshit and expensive, with physical bruisers being able to crush anything easily.

>>382951014
>lvl 99 Mages cast fireball with more damage
ftfy

Who would you be more afraid of irl, a guy brandishing a weapon or a guy summoning meteors?

>>382964492
The thing that gets me is if magic is the end all be all omniuniversal toolkit" why is anyone bothering swinging a sword, learning to build buildings, or just generally learning any skill that isn't magic? It's just stupid, magic is best when it's operating under strict rules, not just some vague "power of will there's no limits because IT'S MAGIIIIC" bull crap.

>>382970668
The guy that actually exists.

>>382970668
the guy who doesn't have to stand still for 10 seconds channeling a spell in order to kill me

>>382970774
Why people get art degrees instead of STEM?

>>382971709
That's not really the same, Art is an Art it's not objective and doesn't really have practical applications. This is like choosing to use an abacus instead of a calculator, one has the same function as the other but is better and can also play Block dude.