Is it possible to have a skill based MMORPG? As in player skill.

>>382885710
>*play some part in pve

Closest to that was Wildstar. Shame it looked fucking ugly and flopped.

It's probably possible but not worth the effort.

>>382885859
I also heard how it's hard to do in a MMO due to the fact that it gives the engine/server a hard time.

Skill can be defined in various ways.

But the big appeals of MMOs isn't skill, its character building and open worlds with open systems.

The goal of an MMO is to be immersive with characters who have a ton of different paths they can walk, and challenges to overcome.

"Skill" in this kind of game is mostly about choices, socializing, and the ability to efficiently spend your time.

Don't ever expect MMOs to ever reach what people typically refer to when they mean skill in games, which is twitch reaction gameplay, that has no place in MMOs, what you want in an MMO is dynamics, both player driven and world generated.

Action combat in MMOs has only created a massive meme that has fundementally ruined the genre, look at any action MMO, or even tab targeting MMOs such as WOW and as they introduced more 'skill' elements they stripped out a ton of the depth the game used to have.

>>382885959
>Action combat in MMOs has only created a massive meme that has fundementally ruined the genre, look at any action MMO, or even tab targeting MMOs such as WOW and as they introduced more 'skill' elements they stripped out a ton of the depth the game used to have.

But it isn't due to this at all why WoW has declined in quality. The reason that it has is solely due to the fact that the game forces and lets you ignore the world and players around you. Flying mounts, LFR/LFG, higher leveled npc's making exploring other continents harder, it's forgotten all about the MMO part of an MMORPG.

>>382885710
What you want is souls/monster hunter/dragon's dogma style of combat with server side calculations, not gonna happen any time soon.
I would play that.

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>Warcraft 3
>4 skills, some of which are passives
>microing a single hero takes more skill than minmaxing a 100 spell WoW character
You can't explain this.

>>382886135
Yes, and they've also made stats retarded as fuck, easily grinded, and pretty much scaled to a singular statistic as well.

Of course the game world is going to be easy as fuck to grind through when every peice of gear has scaled stamina on it reguardless.

In Vanilla/BC, you actually had to choose "Should use the piece with more stam or more int" on top of the various other stats you could min-max with threshholds like resistance, hit, spell pen, ect.

On top of this, all abilites in WOW now revolve around the proc based rotation, adding in a DDR style 'skill' to the game where you simply mash a button when glowy shit pops up on screen, where in the past you used your various abilities, such as CC, snares, stuns, kicks, ect, even in world PVE.

>>382886468
Thats because WOW has become a singular focused game.

Its all about applying the most DPS to a singular, or multiple targets at a given time to beat an arbitrary enrage timer.

23 out of 25 people in the raid have nothing to fucking do but a mindless DPS rotation that has been theory crafted to fuck and back with no dynamics what so ever, everything is a scripted encounter now.

Meanwhile in WC3, multiplayer made it so player choices were always up against player choices, even WOW PVP is just a massive cooldown dump.

>>382886229
>I would play that.
I'm glad. I was also thinking of MH spliced with WoW when I wrote this. I feel like the whole idea has a lot of potential and all it needs is a AAA developer set out to do it. The problem with a lot of MMO's is that the players are too focused on the end game, which means they are only focused on the goodies at the end of their experience not the whole journey. I believe a good, mechanically, skill, based combat system could fix this. Along with a focus more on player interaction. People wont be so scared to pvp anymore or take on tough pve scenarios as they dont have the gear check or that player is better geared/ leveled than them. As previously stated levels should still play a part, a level difference of more than 15+ between two similarly skilled players should go towards the higher leveled one. As both players would be hitting the same amount of stuff and dodging.

>>382886135
There are plenty of reasons why WOW has failed.

The action combat meme has always been one of them.

The PVP arena scene as well as the top 1% of raiding scene has pretty much ruined the RPG WOW used to be.

>>382886468
You've mistaken OP. He meant skill as in the players mechanical skill, not the "skills" (abilities) that the classes have.

>>382886808
You would have to generously steal everything from mon hon though.

The big problem is mon hon is designed around 4 players, while MMOs are technically, by design, infinitely scalable, and you don't really want to make a game where you have big dragons running around and everyone is trying to fight it like a mon-hon monster, but with 20 people flailing longswords tripping everyone.

>>382885959
No retard
You dont play mmos for gameplay, you play for community

MMOS arent a dieing genre because of gameplay quality (altho it is generally shit)

But because you cant build sense of community when social media and voice chat apps exist

>>382886930
Thats what that person implied.

WC3 heroes took more skill to micro then the DPS DPS Revolution of modern WOW.

Probably why more people are into MOBAs these days then WOW.

>>382886878
>The action combat meme has always been one of them.
How so? WoW is still a completely gear reliant, tab target MMO. There's no aiming or dodging anything, you tab on something and you either hit a hit check and hit it or you don't.

>>382887040
>you don't play a game for the gameplay

>>382887040
Gameplay and community can be linked.

Thats what player driven economics in games like EVE or the raiding scene in most fantasy MMOs are all about.

If an MMO was purely about community you'd have fucking second life.

>>382887065
They've been removing RPG mechanics like resists, dodge, ect, in favor of normalized damage, and damage mitigation buttons, and all the boss fights have always been about dodging ground fire.

In terms of aiming, you don't want that in a properly scaled MMO, not even MMOFPS games like planetside 2 can get it to not be shit, and the entire game is designed around aiming, its a fucking shooter.

>>382887141
If I wanted good gameplay I would certainly as hell not play a mmo

S

>>382887047

>modern WoW

I'm wondering what you think level cap gameplay was like in vanilla and tbc

>>382887325
But why the fuck wouldn't you want good gameplay in your mmo? Or it atleast seems like you're implying that.

>>382885710
yes and no OP. there is a reason why games like that claim to be fast paced action aren't full DMC tier hack and slash and more along the lines of queuing skills to dodge and slap things and then adding a reticle to make it seem "fast paced"

its because its extremely hard to optimize this kind of shit.

imagine a world like WoW where everyone has vindictus/dragon nest tier skills and combos, the world would lag like fucking trash.

the main city in dragon nest drops my PC easily to below 30 fps and the graphics are total ass, because of the game not optimized above 4 players in a city filled with 100+ players in 1 single instance

4 player dungeon tier games have everything loaded in small areas and seperated from everyone else to keep everyone else from dropping your FPS, like warframe and shit.

>>382887341
Well I will tell you spamming frostbolt for DPS, but also casting frost nova, polymorph, and blizzard as well in various situations.

Rather then just spamming 4 flavors of frost bolt in order to do the most damage.

>>382885710
someone needs to just fucking make an MMO with combat similar to Monster Hunter

>>382887383
Obviously If the mmo could present good gameplay and a strong community game it would be better

But lets be fucking honest here, mmos never been the pinnacle of gameplay mechanics
And now that the genre is on decline, it wont happen

>>382887592
Vindictus?

>>382887427
Well first of all I'm not thinking of super flashy combat. I just want there to be a lot more input in the player. For the vast majority of MMO's all the "skill" lies in - Tab, 1-9, repeated; occasionally you might move a bit.

Secondly I'm just saying theoretically if a developer had a shit ton of money could this be possible or would it be in conflict with the core mechanics of a MMORPG like WoW. I was kind of thinking how it could work in dungeons and obviously pvp pretty well. But it might be messy in large raids.

>>382887595
That's literally the reason this thread exists. Because OP wants better gameplay in MMOs.

>>382887595
This guy gets it.

Your gameplay should revolve around community building aspects.

If your game doesn't put friends or contacts on your friends/contacts lists within the first few hours of playing you've fucked up.

>>382887592
MHF?
MHO?
Dauntless is also coming out soon

>>382885710
Tera is as close as we've gotten.

Too bad it's terrible in almost everything but the combat system.

>>382885710
Darkfall. You missed the boat by about 8 years. It's RIP though unless you count RoA/ND
>>382885859
fucking lmao, no.

>>382887736
OP here and this is what I would do first and foremost. And why I made it a point in the OP. I fucking loved the sense of community in Vanilla and why it had such a good one. Because the game forced you to work together, to co-operate. I would actually have tab target combat with a great sense of interaction than a mmo with only good skill based combat.

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>>382887040
>But because you cant build sense of community when social media and voice chat apps exist

Root of the problem right here. How do you connect with a certain group of people when you can easily connect with fucking any random nigger much easier?

Not to mention that most MMOs are not rpgs, but are linear story based combat simulators where you always go into the bad guys lair with a handful of 'allies' and blow up the boss like some kind of fantasy warrior version of scooby-doo and the gang, ya'know minus the friendship and conversation parts.

What actual reason does someone who wants to roleplay someone have to play an MMO were other ppl expect you to be a DPS god or GTFO of their humorless random PUG in some bullshit dungeon that you just teleport to cuz walking's a drag or something VS a single player game like skyrim where you can customize your character far more, and even change the gameplay to suit/challenge your character and hey it's not like you have friends anyways so just DL a nice follower mod of bimbo #473.

>>382887662
>>382887743
>MHF
>MHO
They're still completely quest-based like any other MH game. There's no overworld, let alone any overworld combat.

Not to mention them and Vindictus are Korean/Chinese cash shop riddled garbage anyways.

>>382887825
Darkfall was such a letdown back then

>>382885710
At one extreme you have a game like DMC. At the other, you have your typically MMO. I don't see why they couldn't meet somewhere at the middle. That said, it would be impossible and a nightmare to balance if you were to try to combine both of those extremes without compromise somewhere.

>>382887662
>Vindictus
>combat similar to Monster Hunter
[continued laughter]

>>382887682
The problem is on two fronts.
1: Server stability
2: Client connection.

Latency and stability will always be a problem for MMOs, the goal of a good MMO is to have good scalability, something every MMO has struggled with to the point that many just give up and instance the fuck out of their games.

I've never seen an MMO with more then 100 players in a single shard without major server stability issues, even EVE, the game that's major selling point is player battles in the thousands, has to hack the gameplay via time dilation in order to smooth out the gameplay and server stability

And then you have the problem with client connection to server.

Not everyone is going to have perfect latency, someone might be opperating at 20ms, someone might be running at 200ms, MMOs are played by tons of people world wide, even if they're region locked people will bypass said locks to play with friends on US or EU servers if needed.

Because of this your 'action' combat would simply feel sluggish and boring because you'd be swinging your swords on server ticks of like 10 per second, in which the server will have a ton of issues registering hits.

Even in games like Tera they simply cheat the 'action' combat by drawing the same cleave/AOE circles and lines every other MMO does and just doesn't allow auto attacking.

My dream mmo is a new superhero mmo with an action oriented combat system where you can do combo attacks with other players. Like an ice hero creating a patch of frost and a fire hero melting it to create mist to blind enemies or a water puddle the electric hero can zap enemies with.

>>382888181
That doesn't sound very actiony.

That sounds more strategic, which is what more MMOs do indeed, need.

>>382885710
This will be possible in 10 to 20 years, when we get quantum computers

>>382888273
Not as long as burgerland internet is still owned by jew monopolies.

>>382885710
I like the idea but how would roles like tanking work than? I mean why would the tank, need to tank if he can just dodge it all? Why not just have a full team of dps?

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>>382885710
They exist already in the form of Tera, Blade and Soul, and to a lesser extent Black Desert.

If you want to stray further from the "MMO" definition, there is also DFO (Dungeon Fighter Online / Dungeon and Fighter), Dragon Nest, and Elsword.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-UfExu7z3M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3plQiN0buY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHZRjyV8zoU

These are PvP videos, however the PvE in each of those games I listed is skill-based as well.

DFO

>>382888017
darkfall was amazing up until the super alliance hyperion was broken

>>382888347
Because then the enemies would overwhelm your teamates? Tanking isn't just about damage absorption but also aggroing, also in a skill based MMO's tanks could possibly have blocking and parrying mechanics for their shields and greatswords. Maybe they can block the huge attack the boss is going to do. But it's a very precise, long cooldown ability.

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The problem is scalability.

Once you reach a critical mass of players 'skill' goes out the window.

Its in the best interest to go with a system that scales better such as RPG mechanics then skill based

>>382888068
This guy gets it

Mmos gameplay are limited by server side limitations
And that kids
Is why you wont see a mmo with amazing gameplay until internet connection becomes so fucking fast distance or server load becomes a non issue

>>382888621
Well big fights are supposed to be hectic anyways. Large scale pvp fights in WoW have always been fucking messes. I can large scale pve working in a scale based game however.

>>382888773
>in a skill*

>>382885710
Elder scrolls online has that kind of combat

>>382889141
Too bad it's skyrim tier awkward combat.

>>382889314
It's okay-ish if you're not in 1st person

>>382885710
>As in player skill.
gotta define skill first or this will be a very arbitrary thread

>>382886468
You're wrong about this and if you're referring to DotA, that's pvp and pvp in WoW still takes more skill than it does in DotA

what is THE mmo to play right now? i really want to enjoy an mmo but they all look bad.

>>382890678
>pvp in WoW still takes more skill than it does in DotA

you must be the stupidest nigga alive

>>382890568
The ability to hit and dodge skill shots, creating combos with allies with your classes abilities, manage multiple enemies/allies, at once depending on your role. This applies to both PVE and PVP. The goal of this is to increase the amount of interactivity the player has in combat. Because as it stands MMO's are fucking 4 stops at most, the majority however are 2 steps
>Tab/right click on enemy
>press ability 1-9.

>>382887040
>dieing

>>382885710
>Pretending that DarkFall never existed
Anyway, literally thats why if I would have more experience and of course - money, I would probably make a game heavily mixed with fighting games mechanics. Most of skill would come definitely from mashing up right combos and predicting enemy movements. Well gameplay-wise that would be pretty cool. But when it comes to everything else I would probably go with more community-driven mechanics, since right now almost every MMORPG isnt even close to use even few % of the genre potential and success of the WoW killed the creativity for 13 years already, makes me wonder how long we will have to wait until the genre will start to be more creative as before.

>>382890897
"skill" in DotA comes from interaction between the group members and mechanics such as laning as well as having memorized a library of possible item and hero combinations, not from microing your hero.

Playing a WoW character takes more skill than you need for the micromanagement of your character in DotA

>>382891257
You do realize strategy is part of skill right?

>>382885710
The big draw on pve in MMOs isn't skill, but working as a team to solve a boss fight and line up damage uptimes and healing uptimes in the most optimal ways for an encounter. It boils down to a game of who can devise the best way to get the best numbers consistently.

>>382891461
hence my first post in this thread >>382890568

>>382890851
Probably WoW, FFXIV, EVE Online or Black Desert Online.
Those are at least the biggest ones right now.

>>382891257
How to recognize somebody has never played DOTA.

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>>382885710
As mentioned earlier in the thread, you almost perfectly described WildStar.

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>>382885932
WildStar suffered from several problems. The most egregious were
>Buggy as fuck launch
>Shitty optimization
>Excessive focus on old-school, hardcore raiding (pic related: that's the old attunement system for raiding, it's been trimmed down massively since then)
>Monthly sub when they were on the way out
All of this combined to practically strangle the baby in its crib. It has never fully recovered, although they continue to make efforts to improve. The game is still supported and running to this day.

>>382888181
You're thinking of Guild Wars 2 with their system where various attacks going through various fields create various effects.

>>382887141
>Anon realices why MMOs and MMO players are stupid

>>382893742
>realices
>Calling anybody stupid

>>382888181
https://youtu.be/SznERJ85I_Y?t=32

>>382885710
Wasnt it theoretically possible to play through all of Vindictus naked? you can dodge every attack and the tank can block every strike with no stagger when properly timed

>>382885710
eve online

>mmo ski-
>What I mean no tab targeting, every ability requires aiming and every ability can be dodge

topkek

>>382888773
>Large scale pvp fights in WoW have always been fucking messes
says the wrath babby who's only glimpse of 'large scale pvp' is raiding enemy faction capitals for the mount

>>382885710
It's not impossible to make one, but it's impossible to make it good.

The people who want this sort of shit don't actually want to play an mmo else they'd be playing BDO/ESO/Wildstar/GW2/Korean dogshit already.

>>382896750
>says the wrath babby who's only glimpse of 'large scale pvp' is raiding enemy faction capitals for the mount

But I hated Wrath, favorite was Vanilla.

>>382891036
>I want a game that's just like guild wars 2 except I won't play guild wars 2

>>382885710
MMOs are mainly limited by netcode and sever infrastructure. What good is having devil may cry skill combat in a MMO if peoples internet connection isn't perfect or the server cannot calculate the actions of 100 players on screen fast enough.

>>382897172
OP said he wanted skill based combat and Guild Wars 2 is still tab target garbage. Game is inferior to WoW in literally every single department

>>382890851
FFXIV for the PVE
Blade and Soul for the PVP

>>382897338
oh yeah I forgot that aiming skillshots is the only thing that counts as skill

>>382897456
>butthurt guildwarsfag thinks that managing 4 abilities takes any skill

>>382897338
>gw2
>skill based

It's a mess of button smashing, enormous grinding and unresponsive combat.

>>382898246
>button mashing

so you're just an idiot then

>>382898246
This. WoW may not have any "combos" but it's combat is still 10 times better than that slog fest.

>>382891461
>>382892032
The sheer button input requires more skill than DOTA.

>>382893230
>we could 4 man silver dungeons
>carried our guild through attunement
>now we were stuck at project with a bunch of retards

didnt quite think that through

I'd say the closest that comes to this would be Dark Souls.

>>382885710
Given how much players bitch and moan when content is too hard in FFXIV and they nerf everything, no.

MMO audience doesn't want a challenge they just want shinies to show off how much mindless time they can sit at a screen doing something a kindergartner could do

>>382898246
Yes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ1Rm8z9dXg

>>382885710
another idiot who thinks shallow action MMOs take have more skill. THEY ALL DIE FOR A REASON.

>>382902379
>Terra still alive
>PSO2 still alive and one or the most popular MMO in Japan
>DFO alive and super popular
hmmmm

>>382885710
How has the action MMORPG meme not died yet?

>>382903118
Because people don't want to go back to pure tab-targeting yet. That said, if they can't change the action loop, they'll change the underlying structure of the game, like Crowfall and its temporary campaigns.

>>382903118
Why are pro tab targeting fags still alive?

I play Kritika. Not exactly an MMO, it is more like DFO or Vindictus, but the combat is pretty fun.

I think gameplay being deeply related to community is key to creating a 'skill'-based mmo.

Invision something EVE-like, Darkfall-like in which decision making of risk vs reward is highly important. Death should punish you, and to improvr on this concept I think most of the progress should be based in gear (that drops ans breaks on death).

I just dont know about the leveling system. In EVE its a fucking grind, the ISK (money) grind which is fundamental to how war relates to community. But the skill grind (time) is kind of a boner killer for me. Any suggestions in how to level up your character in a way that isnt a bitch?

>>382905008
>leveling
>relevant

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>>382892974
Excuse me, what game?
When I try to read the last word it says "Dead game"

>>382899387
Please, rotations have become simple as fuck.
Dota has a much more complex movement system for one, wher you need to properly abuse line of sight and elevation to be sucessful, many skillshots require pixel accuracy, compared to MMO "skillshots". If you want something with "complex button inputs" go ahead and try Invoker.

>>382885710
Dragon's Dogma Online is exactly this.

>>382885710
Can I get more maps like this? That one is great.

>>382906931
>rotations
Except gameplay is really situational for a lot of characters, and setups for healer kills outplays a lot of DOTA mechanics. Most DOTA engagements aren't even team based, because of the laning phase.

>poking until the character doesn't notice you leveling up or whatever, and you ulting him.

>DOTA
>muh click move
>elevation

>>382897069
then you clearly took no part in world boss pvp then or you wouldn't have made that statement