"No, video games will never be a a legitimate form of art"

"Did u rike it" - Roger Ebert

>>382325941
source? also Kojima is a hack

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>>382325941
>I am a hack so everyone else has to be one
Ok movie man

>>382325941
Can you link a source?

Solid attempt but we all know Kojima's English is terrible.

>>382325941
So is he saying video games can't be art OR won't be recognized as art?

>>382326314
Ebeet said if.

>>382325941
That's a quote from George "Jawless" Hebert, just edited.
And to answer tour question, no, they don't have a point. Videogames can be art.

>>382325941
>never, as Akira Kurosawa informs us, is a long, long time
fuck of, slanty-eyed mong - that phrase is as old as Latin

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>>382326429
figured this was a shit thread. what do you guys want to talk about

Video games are as much art as super hero Hollywood movies

>>382326337
Sounds like Konami was always a terrible place to work.

>>382325941
>art1
>1The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
He can fuck off.

>>382326563
Yeah,after 70 million dollars squandered on kojima delusions people wake up.

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>>382326530
I want to talk about how this site's users should think more critically about what they read here.

>>382326543
>every video game is the same
>just live every movie is the same

>>382326640
He responsible for ZOE2 and Snake Eater, so I don't think he's completely incapable of making something cool.

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>"The fact that so many books still name the Beatles as “the greatest or most significant or most influential” rock band ever only tells you how far rock music still is from becoming a serious art. Jazz critics have long recognized that the greatest jazz musicians of all times are Duke Ellington and John Coltrane, who were not the most famous or richest or best sellers of their times, let alone of all times. Classical critics rank the highly controversial Beethoven over classical musicians who were highly popular in courts around Europe. Rock critics are still blinded by commercial success. The Beatles sold more than anyone else (not true, by the way), therefore they must have been the greatest. Jazz critics grow up listening to a lot of jazz music of the past, classical critics grow up listening to a lot of classical music of the past. Rock critics are often totally ignorant of the rock music of the past, they barely know the best sellers. No wonder they will think that the Beatles did anything worthy of being saved."

Reminder that the only video game ebert ever admitted to liking was a visual novel

weeb games confirmed for art

>>382326667
the average anon is here for the epic shitposting, mate. nobody cares, unfortunately

>>382326741
Except he never made a thing in his life.
There are whole teams of people,artists and programmers working day and night to create the game.

>but muh ideas man
None of his ideas are original,it is all directly influenced if not stolen by popular culture.
Stop worshiping him like some kind of idiot.

>>382326708
protag has a problem and attempts to overcome it
every thing is the same

>>382327012
Generalization of things only go so far.

>>382326778
Nick Drake comes to mind.

>>382327048
goes*

>>382327012
I was playing a tetris a few minutes ago and it doesn't even have a protagnoist

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>>382327012
>judging art by content instead of form

wew

I have never met someone as tryhard as Hideo Kojima. I mean, there's that guy behind Fez who imploded, but Kojima takes the cake for added self-unawareness due to sheer fan support.

One of the editors of MGS2's English localization said it best, he thinks he's a hot shot when he insisted on jokes like "Did you say nerd?". The only reason it existed was because Kojima knew the English word for nerd and wanted to showboat his great knowledge to his dev team, not so much for the player.

>Even as a non-native Japanese speaker, the original set-up for this one line seemed awkward. Agness explained, "Regarding node vs. nerd, I do not remember that particularly. However, I do remember a general pattern of attempts to kick it American-style in the original. I felt it was essentially juvenile name-dropping, whether it was 'hey, I speak English, look!' puns like this one, or knowing references to mushers and the NSA. The saddest joke is that Japanese nationals who actually know about this stuff - SDF officers, war journalists, sketchy wanderers - would have been amazing sources for an actual writer."

http://www.eatchain.com/garbage/METALGEAR%3F%3F%3F/Metal%20Gear%20Solid%202%20Agness%20Kaku%20Intereview/Page%202/Hardcore%20Gaming%20101%20%20Agness%20Kaku%20Interview.htm

Kojima is the fucking epitome of tryhard. Everything after MGS4 for me doesn't register as the same man who made the first 4 games. I can't get mad at 4 when it was just batshit insane from start to finish, it didn't have that now established Kojima touch of self-masturbation.

>>382327169
not literally

>>382325941
Kojimas games are still games
Even though autistic /v/ faggots want it to be different

I have never in my life thought that any of his games were "too less gameplay"

>>382327170
Content has meaning, judging something based on its form is masturbation.

>>382327170
>objectively judging form

>>382327410
>objectively judging anything

>>382327276
MGS 4 was great whats your problem

>>382327503
I can objectively judge that you're a fag.

>>382327170
Art should be judged at both form and content

Therefore games can't be art as long as they are games

>>382326640
god I know it's just bait, but I still hate you anyway.

>>382326530
This gif is much better when it's not in 16 color mode

>>382327871
HELL YEAH MAN FUCK KONAMI

>>382327709
Video games use art assets, however, which can be individually appraised.
Therefor, while game my not BE art, they may CONTAIN art that can be appreciated on a more individual level.

>>382327574
Reading comprehension much? I'm not mad at MGS4, I accept it for the crazy ride that it is. Everything made after 4 feels like a congratulatory victory lap about how great Kojima is. There's just something about post MGS4 games that don't have that same feeling of self-aware camp threshold the 4 first games did.

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>>382325941
anything created from the ingenuity of the human mind is art. that's objective fact. whether or not it's "good" or "bad" art, is entirely subjective and what everyone tries to argue.

>>382328176
That's only the post-modern definition of art, not objective at all.

Ebert was such a great writer, beautiful sentences.

>>382328001
I agree if it stays on individual level

Games can't be parted into pieces since art isnt a personal collage. You can't just claim certain bits of a song or a painting to be art and the rest isn't. So you cannot claim certain bits of a game to art and the rest isnt (even if it is technically true). Sond and paintings are considered as art in their whole piece, but games are not. As long as a game has gameplay elements, it cannot be considered as an art piece per se.

WTF i hate Kojima now.

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>>382326778
kek

I think there is a legitimate case of video games not being art, at least in any classic sense. Because it's the only form of media where the narrative is driven by the player. Movies can't stop you from watching them and paintings can't stop you from looking at them. Games however can be designed in a way that the player just can't experience them.

It's about as artistic as an obstacle course. But here's the thing, I do think an obstacle course can be artistic. I think exhibitions that rely on viewer interaction can be art. A video game can house the intentions of a developer who wants to convey a story where player agency is important or craft a specific experience.

It basically just boils down to how specific of a definition do you want to give to art. You can call synchronized swimming an art... or is it a sport?

>>382325941
If you read the whole interview you'd know he's jesting.

>>382327276
>MGS2's English localization said it best

Are you really advocating what Agness "Mickey Finn in my morning glass of OJ", "Explosives 'R Us", "Jesus Christ, Snake! Cigarettes?" Kaku has to say about writing?

As a non-American I always found cool how the game referenced stuff from America I could learn about, exactly how most nips would think.

>implying he isn't just saying that so his fanboys will suck his dick more and be like "your video games are art"

>>382331128
Well played.

>>382325941
>Hideous Kojima
>fool

correct

>>382325941
Why does an art form has to be "legitimate" for people to appreciate it? Do you need somehow need approval to like things now? Him saying that is a huge disservice to everyone who has worked in the gaming industry.

>>382326432
What's the point of videogames being art? What do they gain from that?

Video games are perhaps that antithesis of art, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

>>382326337
Clock's ticking Kojima, stop watching shitty movies and work on your game.

>>382328943
>As long as a game has gameplay elements, it cannot be considered as an art piece per se.
How exactly? Art is something that is interpreted differently by everyone, and gameplay allows people to experience it differently

The very last thing videogames need is to lose gameplay, what makes it unique, and become an extension of film

>>382326778
I know I'm replying to nobody, but I think The Beatles were the culmination of the genre, and the pioneers or genesis.
They're like a summary point that rolls all the best elements of rock into a calculated, condensed package.
Similar to Breath of the Wild which is lauded so highly because it condenses all the best elements of its genre into a polished and practically glitch-free game.

If someone said "I want to play the best open world game ever made" you would say "play Zelda unless story matters in which case go play RDR".

>>382326895
there he is folks. the textbook example of a 15 year old that's accomplished as much as, if not more than, kojima. let's give the man a round of applause.

>>382326640
he more than doubled their investment. squandered?

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>>382325941
Oh boy another "Can Video Games be Art?" thread. That depends, can an experience be Art? Video games in their ultimate form are experiences. If you were to have a Total Recall like VR experience, would that be art?

MGS2 was literally avant-garde in video game form.

>>382325941
He didn't even know anything about film -- why expect him to know anything about vidya?

>People getting mad at Kojimbo for a quote from Roger Ebert

Stop getting baited

>>382333497
Experiences are above art, they're fucking experiences.

>>382325941
And he is right. That's why he is wise enough to put interesting and well made cutscenes to fill the lack of art that a simple game has.

Guys, a game is a game. Like Tetris. If you have good cutscenes and good story, it doesn't make the game more art. If you put cutscenes in Tetris, Tetris won't be art, maybe the cutscenes yes. Same happens with games like Uncharted, where gameplay becomes movie to transmite some emotions. Kojima just gave up and he does the best he can to bring proper gameplay and proper story.

Dark Souls is a good example of a game aproching to art, because gameplay actually fuse with the story. The player has the capacity to interprete what he sees and find. There is no need of dialogo like in a book, or cutscenes like in a movie. Just gameplay and information that the player finds, and your brain to interprate it.

But even then, there is a long way to be at the same level as books, movies, etc.

>>382333943
Explain to me why is gameplay an obstacle except when it is a part of the story and why it can't be considered art

>>382334182
Gameplay it's not an "obstacle". What I say is that a game is gameplay itself. So you have to transform gameplay into art.

And to me, normally gameplay has little to 0 intelectual value, more than you getting good at it.

>>382332180
There's nothing to "gain". It's how things are. Some instances of a medium tend to be artistic, that's how life goes.

>>382334439
Okay, could you tell me about the intellectual value you derive from, say, a book?

>>382333313
what did he mean by this?
Was it autism?

>>382333404
You cant even cont to 70 million,some people are nervous when they assign so much money at an artisan such is himself.
Thats why he was fired from konami.

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>>382326337

>>382326578
>producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
right so not games. games by their very definition don't apply to this

>>382334970
It can give you information, it can tell you a story. It can be writen in a way that will make you have an emotional response. You can interprete it as you want. Gameplay can't do this.

See this anon. To make this thing, a book just needs words, the very basics of a book. But a game needs words, music, visuals, etc. And in the end, the gameplay says nothing to you. At least in almost every case.

A game, overall, can be art, because it's a combination of everything. But the thing that doesn't say nothing to you it's the game itself. It's like if you needed music to enjoy a book.

>>382335883
But like you said, Dark Souls manages to tell a story about its world through its gameplay, with the careful positioning of corpses and such. I'd say Nier: A, even if I don't like the game, does it too with the fact that you can customize your chips, since you're an android, and you can disconnect the power supply, giving you a game over. Even MGS3 does it when you lose an eye and first person view is modified a bit to reflect this.
I do think gameplay itself can tell a story

In fact I'd say it always tells a story, one about the player overcoming his obstacles and succeeding.

>>382333542
This is exactly why videogames will never be art.

>>382335105
No, he was fired because Konami wanted to make phone games and microtransaction baits.

>>382335105
So, after 20 years, Konami suddenly panicked at a franchise that has always been a success?
None of you know why he left Konami.
Hell, you don't even know that firing people in Japan is ilegal.

>>382336765
Yes yes. Don't get me wrong. I thing that some games approach art, that's why I say that about Dark Souls, just an example. But I do think that there is a long way to be on par with other forms of art.

If games are art, they are it in a minimum form most of the time. It's very limited. At least for now.

>>382326640
MGSV made 180 million in launch day.
In the eyes of Konami it was a massive success.

>>382325941
This hack needs to write and direct his own movie, I can't believe people take his film opinions seriously.

And no, videogames do not count as movies

>>382337284
He would have literally no idea of how to make a movie.

>>382332908
I mean, I get what you're saying but you're also completely wrong

>>382337284
Why?
The story is the worst part of all MGS games.

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>>382333542
How so? I'll agree that MGS2 was artful, but not because it was Avant-garde. Avant-garde video games are more like Deus Ex Machina or LSD:Dream Emulator in my opinion. And how exactly is Avant-garde artful? Just because it challenges perception doesn't mean it's art. Avant-garde can be art, but the very act of being Avant-garde doesn't necessitate art.

>>382337551
There's no ''avant garde'' videogames, you pretentious fucks.

>>382337181
Even if right now it barely hits the minimum, the potential is there, and I think it should be explored further. Thing is it's way easier to tell something through cutscenes and the like, so most wouldn't bother with it

>>382327709
then movies aren't art, art isn't art.
Video games are a MEDIUM. A way to project ideas and to evoke emotion, as it has done before, therefore it is art. Any argument against that proves you are retarded.

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>>382325941
Wait.

That's just bait.

>>382337621
I hope so. Personally, I trust Miyazaki to surprise us with something new. I hope he does something new, and develop more the Souls storytelling.

>>382326778
>the highly controversial Beethoven
Really? I didn't know he was controversial

>>382332908
>Breath of the Wild which is lauded so highly because it condenses all the best elements of its genre
Jesus, no. It has a lot of merit how glitch free it is and all the stuff that goes on with the physics is really cool, but it still has a long way to go to be the culmination of the genre.

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>>382337617
>The term avant-garde refers to innovative or experimental concepts or works, or the group of people producing them.
I'd say the examples i listed fit that bill fairly well.

>>382333542
MGS2 is stealth ludo.

>>382342079
But ludo means...
You're a sneaky one. Well done.

>>382326778
BOWLHEADS BTFO

>70% of my body is made of movies
>still only watch surface level movies
sad

>>382342767
That's his real curse right there. Not Konami, but watching so many movies yet still nothing remarkable.