If the gods have the power to grant personas to people, why don't

>>381885416
Bound by fate or some gay shit.

At no point in any of the games has it been suggested that they can take those powers away. They're also not 'given' to people, it's always that persona-users have the potential from birth, but the gods can force them to awaken

>>381885614
This. Also, in right environment, anyone can have persona (like TV World).

>>381885614
are you retarded? p3 was forced through a gun weaponizer, they couldn't actually control personas, p4 got his through a hand shake with izanami, p5 straight up got it from the holy grail.

>>381885614

This. People aren't given personas. They just awaken to their potential.

Yaldy and his whole plan was "here are two people with the wild card, I'll give them an app and see what shit goes down."

What would be interesting is if Akechi had access to the velvet room, or if his wild card abilities were purely limited to using his original and his awakened personas.

>>381885754
Are you retarded?
Gods didn't make evokers
Izanami didn't shake hands with everyone in P4's party
Holy grail does directly give the MC his powers, everyone else awakens to them on their own
Given that you didn't even mention 1 & 2, I can assume you didn't play them and know fuck-all about the series.

>>381885614
Wrong, Persona 1, 2:IS and 2:EP casts all got directly given their powers by Philemon,

>>381885754
People always have had the ability to awaken their Personas. Evokers replicated the circumstances it would be required to awaken your Persona. As for P4, I'm sure you'll note that only Yu shook hands with Izanami. Even in P5, the only thing given to MC was the Wild Card and presumably only the Metaverse Navigator was given to him by Demiurge-kun.

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>>381885994
Moreover, Philemon is implied to have had a hand in P3 and P4's protags getting their powers because the blue butterfly is a symbol of Philemon

>>381885754

P3 had a persona that awakened on it's own, just in time for Death to show up and do it's freaky thing.

P4 was given the ability to enter the TV world, not necessarily his persona. That said, the fact he and adachi have the same persona is really dumb.

P5 was given an app. He awakened to his persona all on his own, just like the rest of the team.

>>381885980
>p4 didn't shake hands with anybody
... It's literally the clue to the end of the game and how the Yu gets his powers, Izanami as the gas station attendent gave him a hand shake and gave him izanagi.

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>>381885416
Pride?
Whatever. There are bigger plot holes than that if overanalyzing is your thing.

>>381885994
It's just awakening of their potential. Phil just awaken them harder to the point that even normal users can switch persona, since he's the above the collective unconscious

>>381885416
As far as I understand it it's like this

>Everyone already has a Persona/Shadow, just not access to it until they come to either understand themselves/become distorted in some way
>Not just gods but even lesser beings like Velvet Room attendants can help mortals awaken to that; you can even awaken on your own given the correct conditions (the "Potential")
>Once awoken/distorted these can't be taken away without actually killing the person. Think about how even taking Kamoshida's treasure didn't stop his shadow from showing up later in Mementos

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That's not how it fucking works.

>>381886094
Can you not read? The post you're replying to said that Narukami did, in fact, shake hands with Izanami, but that the rest of the IT did not.

>>381886094
Learn to read
If you're going to quote, copy and paste so you don't look like you're an idiot

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The real plothole in the series is that Shadows have literally never worked consistently throughout the franchise.

>P2: Assholes who are out for your blood, have their own Persona and will make you feel pretty shitty about yourself
>P4: lol actually Shadows ARE your Persona.
>P5: lol Shadows are just you wearing a funny hat and they're total bros

Which one is it?

>>381886225
which is not said in that statement. it just says nobody in p4's party.

>>381886374
No, he said that Izanami didn't shake hands with everybody in Yu's party.

>>381886372
actually, it can be both, you forgot Labrys' shadow used a persona as well, as well as the shadow forms of everybody.

>>381886372
Shadows work differently because they're manifested differently, I think. They're clumps of negative emotions born from your soul or whatever, but different for each environment that cause them to manifest.

Things I don't get

>What the fuck was Yaldabaoth even trying to do? He wanted me as the "Trickster" to save mankind somehow, which I did, I only "failed" when I couldn't beat the Holy Grail temporarily. Were we supposed to destroy all the Palaces and NOT enter Mementos? If we hadn't gone into Mementos on 12/24, would the world still have been scheduled to end that day?

>Why do they keep doing the ending climax with "ultimate Persona comes out and you have only one move you can do"? In Persona 3, it was evocative. It was expressive. It was made to show you that the MC had achieved the Universe, and despite still being mortal, had learned of an option whereby he could forever seal Nyx. In Persona 4, it makes no fucking sense. What even are "Myriad Truths"? How do you shoot them at someone? It implies Izanagi was lying to herself which is wrong, she was lying to everyone else. I don't mind that so much since Persona 4 ripped off Persona 3 in every other sense anyway, but I'm disappointed that Persona 5 didn't come up with its own ending. When you're at the end and it presents "Sinful Shell" as your ONLY option, that's bullshit because you still have a shitton of other Personas. In terms of mechanics, you have plenty of other stuff you could do.

>Who the fuck thought Izanami was a good idea? Who thought "Truth" was a good idea? There's absolutely no "Truth" in that myth except sort of very vaguely how Izanagi caught a glimpse of Izanami as a zombie. What a tenuous connection.

>>381886479
Labrys just makes the whole thing even more confusing. Maybe because she's a toaster.

As for the Shadow Forms of everyone, those aren't THEIR shadows, just shadows mashed together in order to resemble other people.

>>381886570
But regardless, how can ones Shadow simultaneously be one's Persona as well, if the Personas are established as being separate entities in P2?

>>381886372
There are infinite facets of the metaverse and as such potentially infinite ways shadows can manifest

What about this is confusing?

>>381886372
Every "other world" is different, so their rules can be different. Not really a plot hole but gives way more room to the dev team to work in exchange.

If your mom had the ability to abort you, why didn't she?

>>381886372
It depends on context.
I think in Persona 2 they were meant to be like Persona 4 but they didn't want to design them transforming into monsters/just didn't think of it at the time/it wouldn't work in the game system.

Persona 3 establishes a lot of Jungian psychology as the basis of how Personas work mechanically; in fact The Answer is the first piece of official media which confirms Shadows and Personas are one in the same, but that's taken directly from Jungian psychology anyway - in the real world, a "Persona" is simply a projection of an aspect of yourself. A "Shadow" is the other side of that which you don't ever talk about. These are how humans operate their own psyche. It's simple to understand, but hard to demonstrate since it's intangible. I think Persona 5's idea of "cognition" attempts to tap into this; technically, the entire world is simply product of cognition (what your brain interprets).

A lot of the more recent stuff seems to be asking questions along the lines of "if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?" Is a sound a sound if it doesn't reach human ears? Is light light if it doesn't reach human eyes? What defines it as that if it doesn't? To a blind man, what does the world look like? It's all a product of the mind. The cognitive world is clearly an anomaly, but it's more along the lines of a heightened psychic field as a result of the world's distortion - essentially, the entire human race's Palace wills itself into being.

>>381886747
Because regardless they're the same part of you. They're your shame, your pain, whatever. But if P2 establishes that Persona doesn't equal Shadow, but P4 does, then it's completely illogical. If your Persona is your Shadow, how can you have a Shadow and a Persona at the same time in P2?

>>381887289
They retconned it, basically.

>>381886584
Yaldy was pitting you against Akechi and trying to pull your leg, he set a flawed game where you HAVE to lose. You supposed to lose to Akechi.

Myriad Truths becomes meaningful when you consider the theme of P4. Izanami is suffocating mankind with lies, the fog and the shadows. This becomes apparent in the hospital scene where you can act impulsively, throw Namatame into the TV World, believing the truth in front of you, instead of getting past it. Also, I believe, in the Japanese version Izanami uses a move called "Thousand Lies" to incapacitate your mates, and in the end you use "Ten Thousand Truths" against her, casting off her lies and rumors. Thus, you defeat her and the fog lifts. It's pretty fitting actually.

Dunno about this, sorry.

>>381887337
Fucking Hackshino

>>381886719
I don't think personas are really their shadows but separate entities born from overcoming their negative emotions and achieving mental resolve.
From my understanding, the shadow selves for people who already are persona users are entities forcefully created by external factors.

>>381887403
>Thousand Lies
>Ten Thousand Truths
This is way fucking cooler sounding AND factors in the myth.

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The better question is, why did Hackshino keep rehashing shit from P1 and P2. Truly a hack

Bring back the dream team.

>>381887289
Persona CAN be your shadow, it doesn't have to be. P4's theme is truth and accepting oneself so it was fitting.
Plus, retcon is real in this one.

>>381887403
Oh, so I wasn't supposed to fuck Shido up? In that case, why pick MC at all? Why deliberately choose a guy with a reason to go after Shido? Was it supposed to be poetic?

I disagree that the truth and lies thing is fitting. It doesn't really tie in with the Japanese Shinto pantheon at all. Persona 3's theme of Greek gods worked because of the nature of classical tragedy; "truth" is not a strong factor in either Shinto or Tarot esotericism. It sounds like they just picked something arbitrarily to write a story about. Persona 3 is a story about "Death" which is an important Tarot card. Persona 5 is about "Rebellion" which is represented in the Devil card (Satanael/Lucifer's gun, etc, for example). What Tarot card represents truth? It's just not a strong link. In the original myth, Izanami said "I will KILL 1000 people" and Izanagi replied "I will MAKE 10,000 children". Not truths. People.

I just think it's dumb.

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>>381887602
>Hey Soejima, it's your first time as the solo designer, don't fuck u-

>>381887772
>It sounds like they just picked something arbitrarily to write a story about.
That is very much possible. I'm not really into myths and gods so I can't really argue about that but I think, at least, story was well thought out inside itself, with thematically fitting ending routes (hospital, ending the investigation on the last day, etc). They possibly wanted to explore these themes so they just went ahead with it.

>>381887975
To this day Kaneko can still not design demons for shit

>>381887975
Soejima either makes GOAT designs or absolute garbage, with no inbetween.

>>381888180
I meant Soejima, it's early.

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>>381886719
because the subconscious is a person's bridge to the collective unconsciousness, a psychic network of vast power. your shadow is your most subconscious part. by aaccepting your shadow you fully open the metaphorical pipeline between you and the collective unconsciousness, allowing you better access to the psychic powers humans have as a result of the collective unconsciousness.

a conversation between a person and their shadow, or between a person and their persona, is ultimately still just them talking to themselves.

another name for the collective unconscious is Akasha. you may have heard of the Akashic Record, the sum of all human knowledge and experience. shadows and personas can be aware of things the individual is not because they have a more intimate connection to Akasha.

>>381886037
Only me?

>>381887772
>Oh, so I wasn't supposed to fuck Shido up? In that case, why pick MC at all? Why deliberately choose a guy with a reason to go after Shido? Was it supposed to be poetic?

Forgot to reply to this one. I think it was supposed to be poetic since game explicitly tells you that at if the buffed scene never happened (after Kamoshida's dungeon, where you meet Shido) you wouldn't have the will to continue Phantom Thieves.
Also yeah, you were supposed to die in that cell. After that Yaldy just says "fuck it, shut it down" and begins to manipulate mass consciousness.

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>>381885416
This is religion 101 OP


>Why doesn't god cure cancer?

They've been trying to figure that one out since forever. Muh free will and all that. Or according to the Greeks the gods are a bunch of fucking dicks.

>>381887772
>Was it supposed to be poetic?
yes. Yaldy pitted for the 'good guys' someone with a rebellious streak a mile wide, but also one naive enough that he failed to realize what he was stealing from his enemies was their own rebellious streak, ultimately weakening the rebellious parts of society.

that's why the hero's final victory is not a rebellion against any one person or even group of people, but against the essence of conformity itself, because up until then they'd merely been conforming to what society insists a non-conformist should do

>>381886584
> "Sinful Shell" as your ONLY option, that's bullshit because you still have a shitton of other Personas. In terms of mechanics, you have plenty of other stuff you could do.

Are you a fucking moron? Did you not read the description? "The bullet that an pierce even a God."

That's literally the only move sentaneal and by extension, Joker could use to take down Yaldy. I don't get your problem, did you want to go back to another persona and use agi instead of shooting god? They gave you only that move for theatrical reasons. Why do I even have to explain this it feels like common sense to me.

>>381888834
>that's why the hero's final victory is not a rebellion against any one person or even group of people, but against the essence of conformity itself, because up until then they'd merely been conforming to what society insists a non-conformist should do

That's... actually really cool.
On an unrelated note, where's Kirijo group and its goons? You literally become the nation and worlds primary concern for a while and no one influential from any past games comes Tokyo to investigate or some shit. Hell even Naoto is missing and instead Akechi is running the private dick show.

>>381888723
Because cancer is a byproduct of sin. The wages sin pays is death. When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit their punishment was death. Cancer and sickness and even death was never supposed to exist for humanity.

>>381889198
Where's Narukami, too? He's from Tokyo.

>>381889198
I wanna see Naoto's private dick show

>>381889198
Kirijo is tied to the government and with Shido pulling the strings there's no way they'd allow Shadow Ops to act,specially since they could get info on Metaverse and fuck his entire scheme.
Naoto is probably busy seeking Thundercock like every P4 girl.

>>381888834
Great post Anon, really good way to put it.

>>381886584
>What the fuck was Yaldabaoth even trying to do?
prove a point, that humans are happier letting someone else make their decisions for them, and that someone is him.
> Were we supposed to destroy all the Palaces and NOT enter Mementos?
if anything, to prove Yaldabaoth wrong they would have had to persuade the shadows to leave the palace but not stolen the treasure.

> What even are "Myriad Truths"? How do you shoot them at someone? It implies Izanami was lying to herself which is wrong,
She was lying to herself, the lie was that the best way for her to act as a goddess was to grant humanity the world without truth they believed they wanted. P4 Golden goes into this in more detail, since Marie turns out to be the part of Izanami that thought this was a dumb idea, and the only way for Izanami to go through with her plan was to surgically remove that part of herself and expel it elsewhere

>Who the fuck thought Izanami was a good idea? Who thought "Truth" was a good idea? There's absolutely no "Truth" in that myth except sort of very vaguely how Izanagi caught a glimpse of Izanami as a zombie. What a tenuous connection.
Izanagi believed that Izanami could be saved, and that nothing could come between his wife and himself. When he saw her as a zombie it proved that not only was she beyond saving, but that he no longer found her desirable anyway. And his reaction was to turn around and run away. Izanami warned him that he wouldn't like what he found, he didn't listen, and just like she said he didn't like the truth when he found it.
You might argue that's flimsy, but half the fun of mythology is finding alternative ways to interpret them and see how well it holds up

>>381889607
That's a fair point but at least someone could've gone rogue or at least show themselves. Most of them are namedropped on TV. Game acknowledges their existence at least.
I know I am begging for a fanservice here but it seems pretty illogical to me, not having them show up.

>>381889198
like >>381889607 says, Kirijo is a bit hamstringed by the way they try to keep things done via legitimate channels. it works great for getting access to cases nobody wants to deal with, but Shido went all the way to ensure only his own men had permission to work on the cases that resulted from his own schemes. Kirijo and the Shadow Ops would have been cockblocked at every turn and threatened with having all their privileges revoked if they didn't back off

>>381889119
If that's the case they should have just had Satanael do it himself in a cutscene since it makes no difference.

My problem is not with the "last option" itself; it's with how it's presented to you mechanically.
In P3 it's hype as fuck because you go in alone, to the fucking MOON, you get your shit wrecked by instant death spells from the physical manifestation of death, get back up again every time hearing the cheers of your friends, and it really, physically, mechanically feels as if your character uses up his life to use that final skill, because he literally does. He uses up his "game life" and your ability to control his life.

In P4? The boss pulls some generic quicksand shit and is all waaahhh you can't truth me truther, then white Izanagi comes out and says have some truths bitch and that's it.

In P5 it's all hype, it's cool, the whole world is watching you kick this god's teeth in, you're doing well, you're winning. Then all of a sudden you have to rely on this giant Satanael from out of nowhere. Okay.
Couldn't they require me to steal his heart or something? It would be a much better tie-in. You remember all those times in boss fights where you can send a character off to change the fight? They could have done that. Satanael blasts a hole in Yaldabaoth's chest, then they send YOU off to run up his arm, run into its body, see all the churning pistons and mechanisms and find its black heart. You steal it, it crumbles. Much more fitting than DURRRR GUN MOVE

>>381886372
The persona 2 shadows weren't really shadows like how persona 4 shadows were. They were rumors about the cast that came about when people saw the group in the areas that were targeted. Narly just warped them into being a reflection of their true self when confronted.

>>381886083
Adachi having the same persona made sense since the entire point of his character is that he is like a corrupt Yuu

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>>381889607
>Naoto is probably busy seeking Thundercock like every P4 girl.
Pretty sure she's busy riding robodick

>>381886134
i wonder how hard it is to pick up chicks in akiba

assuming that you are fairly attractive, white, have understanding of japanese social rules, and of course can comprehend japanese at a highschool level

>>381890294
Adachi should have had Tsukiyomi or something. Holy shit the Japanese pantheon is so huge there is literally no excuse re-using Izanagi. It's so fucking lazy it beggars belief.

>>381886134
took me a minute

>>381890294
p4 would have been neat if it had an adachi route

where you basically act like an edgy shit that pushes all of his friends away, leaving the party to be only him and teddie

nanako is afraid of you, you constantly get into arguments with dojima,

>>381888834

What did I ever see in this game

did it ever come to light what the hushed up internal incident was that killed EPP getting officially localized?

>>381891215
john goodman from rosanne went there and ate the guy who was responsible

>>381890351
Not canon

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>>381890170
>you're winning
The thing is they were losing. Yaldy was playing with tham through whole fight.
>remember that attack I was charging for 3 turns? I actually don't need to charge it at all. And I can spam it too.
Satanael was necessary. The only question is why Joker didn't summon it immediately after Yaldy revealed his true form

>>381891768
>Calling something not canon when even dancing shit and Q is canon

>>381891791
Joker likes bullshitting around a lot.

>>381891116
I still find it amazing that P4 was hashed out in a few years. Its linearity makes sense

>>381891791
Bro, you never use "that" until you clearly have no choice but to use "that." Don't you know anything about anime bullshit?

>>381890351

Didn't that novel imply Yu was gonna become the next Raidou Kuzunoha?

>>381891791
is that realgor

>>381891870
It did get nuked from continuity

>>381889404
Probably the clearest short explanation I've heard on this. Thanks, anon.

>>381886083
>P3 had a persona that awakened on it's own, just in time for Death to show up and do it's freaky thing.
Only during the Dark Hour
Fog world for P4
Metaverse P5

So are the PTs the least powerful group if you don't factor in Tokyo?

>>381898109
no

>>381898316
Who is then?

The only other real option is P4; P1 and P2 Duology are all wild cards and P3 has The Universe.

>>381885416
>why don't they just take those powers away from them before they get royally fucked up by persona users?
>All these people on /v/ not having even a cursory knowledge of Jungian psychology
Plebs

>>381886584
Yaldabaoth wanted to prove that humans are shit with having Akechi vs Joker. He got btfo but rigged the game to his favor in the beginning. The people with palaces are escapees of the larger prison so you 'saving' worked in his favor too so yes.

Fuck off nigger each ultimate move was thematic. Satanneel was the only Persona that could defeat Yaldabaoth as it was the more 'positive' version of it.

>>381898757

The P4 crew can't do shit outside of their magical world

>>381899790
Neither can P5. P5 also has much more limts on their ability to use their particular world; they can only attack people with twisted desires until Mementos Depths opens up.

At what point did Yaldabaoth come into existence?

You guys keep referring to him as the "Demiurge", which traditionally (out of game) Yaldabaoth is, but no one ever says the phrase "Demiurge" at any point in the game. They essentially describe him as an extremely powerful Treasure Demon, powerful enough to be god-like. So if he came from the collective consciousness' treasure (the Holy Grail), he's younger than we are led to believe?

Clearly, also, he imprisoned Igor AFTER Persona 4, which took place only a few years before 5. Is that when he came into existence or just when he decided to take over?

Would Palaces eventually potentially become big and powerful enough to beget their own deities? Is this the first and only time "Palaces" and "Mementos" were a thing in human history? Did it happen before? Can people still have Palaces even if you can't go to them? What happened to Sae's Palace?

>>381900869
Who knows? Around the name Izanami and his wife was around I guess

The real Yaldabaoth (as the mythological being in the real world) has many names including Dermuige and Yahweh. Yaldabaoth is what some Gnostics called the Christian god

He could have easily been around since forever and just challenged Igor after P4 though

Palaces were probably a symptom of Yaldabaoth's game with Igor. Sae's palace probably collasped after she mellowed the fuck down

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>>381900869
Yaldaboth is Demiurge, a common MegaTen villain.

As for when he came into existence, it's impossible to tell. He probably just fucked around for an extended period of time. Maybe got some coffee.