Do devs need extra protections if you complete their game and

>>381878132

No.

>>381878132
If a "game" can be completed in 2 hours it doesn't deserve to be on steam.

>>381878132
nah valve can eat a dick, greedy jews

If you genuinely enjoyed the game then you're a dick for refunding the game.

>>381878132
>a ((((((((((((((((game)))))))))))))) is completed under 2 hours
>Devs somehow defends themselves over this

Fucking wow

>>381878132
Totally , everyone should have the right to become a scammer and turn this place into an even worse shithole.

>>381878380
Just about every arcade game in the world can be completed in under two hours if you're experienced with it. Do you think every arcade game and arcade-styled game doesn't belong on steam?

>>381878681
>if you're experienced with it.

>>381878681
Beating Metal Slug with unlimited credits is one thing, but mastering it down to 5 credits then 1, is a different matter

But yes, there are just some Arcade games that shouldn't be on Steam unless they're in a collection or something

>>381878784
And some even if you're not experienced if the game allows you to credit feed. Though if you just pump virtual quarters into the game to see the ending then feel no desire to play it again to get better, maybe a refund would be appropriate.

no but the 2 hour limit for automated refunds is bullshit

>There are people who actually believe that a game HAS TO BE over 2 hours long
>These people literally don't consider the price as a factor at all, and a 5$ game that has an incredible 2 hours of content is far inferior to an $80 game that has 7 hours of repetative side quest and artificial padding, or that has multiplayer like COD

Fucking retards. The lot of you.

One you start forcing developers to create games that meet some arbitrary length, you're just asking for people to add in stupid bullshit to make the game longer in the worst way possible, just so you can feel justified spending 1 dollar on a sale for a game that can be beaten in an hour and a half, when it should be completely acceptable anyway.

Price vs length vs quality. All these things are vital factors. To say a game should be over 2 hours just fucking because it should be is retarded. If it costed $60, sure, I'd understand, but that's not the fucking case at all.

And what about schmups and shit? What? You can play through the vast majority of them in under 2 hours if you are decent at the game. Are those suddenly awful games?

What about arcade style games like Devil Daggers? Is that not worth the 5 fucking dollars because you see all the gameplay in 5 minutes, despite the fact that it's clearly had, at minimum, hundreds of hours of work and effort put into it, and is a very fun, refined experience the entire time you're playing it?

Fucking idiots. I bet you're the sort of people who like hack and slash RPG games like Titan Quest. Because after all, it doesn't matter if the gameplay is garbage. It's long! Right? That's ALLLLLL that matters.

A develop should be more than free to make a 1 hour game as long as it's prices appropriately. Of course that depends on the person, but a few bucks for an hour of entertainment seems more than reasonable to me.

>>381879808
Kinda agree with this guy even though hes sperging out

What if you create a perfectly good game that has 2 hours of content and you priced reasonably for that much content? Suddenly it means you are incentivized to stretch out your tutorial or beginning part or pull an Age of Conan and put all of your best content in the beginning of the game and literally nothing else for the rest.

>>381879982
>sperging out

I'm passionate man. When people act like fucking retards, I want to at least try and explain why they are retarded in the hopes that some of them will realize.

I hate the fact that just giving my opinion on the matter, just because it's more than a single sentence, is considered to be "sperging out". I explained myself, I gave examples against something that I see at batshit insane.

It's almost like intelligent conversation has no place on /v/ or something.

>>381878132
No. If a game was good, most people won't bother refunding it, even if it's less than two hours to play through.

>>381878132
If your game has no replayability beyond two hours it deserves the refund.

>>381878132
Yes, completing a game should remove your ability to refund it

>>381878681
But the catch with an arcade game is that, unless you decide to play it on easy mode, you'll be constantly trying to beat your best. Higher difficulty, 1C runs, topping your high score etc.

>>381880556
i think idiots calling out reddit on every post they disagree with is the death of this website desu

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>>381879808
>all this salty ad hominem

>>381881304
>>381880556

>>381879808
Shmups and other similar arcade games don't count because they don't have something that you call a tangible "ending". They're meant to be replayed and mastered.

>>381880189
Kill yourself.
No one will buy your $2 'game' because it's a piece of shit.

>>381878132
The 2 hour refund thing should start scaling down with the games' price at like $15. There is literally no reasonable argument against this. A $2 game having 2 hours of gameplay is like a $60 game having 60 hours of gameplay.

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>>381879808
This guy gets it.
The point isn't to defend retarded walking simulators, it's to defend games that know they're short and are priced accordingly.

>>381878380
If a game can be finished in two hours but has lots of replayability then why not?
It's not like Gone Homo where you only get one end (shit) and then you're done with it forever. Garbage like Gone Homo should never come to Steam. Arcade games that people keep coming back to because of fun gameplay still have potential.

>>381881606
>>381879808
What if OP likes shmups but doesn't like shitty ones?

>>381879808
>reddit spacing
>having any merit

>>381881991
Then the first few minutes in the game should tell you already if you like it or not.

>>381878132
No, because only a handful of penny-pinching assholes are going to do that.

If your game is under 2 hours long and you're getting a metric fucktonne of refunds, it's probably because they didn't like your game and noticed they could refund it.

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should i do it?

>>381882469
If there are no card drops, I'd do it

>>381882469
Two hours of gameplay and/or two weeks of ownership.

>>381881304
>all this salty ad hominem
not sure u know what that means
there's one (1) instance of ad hominem in that entire wall of text
you're obviously one of those losers who's desperate to find the smallest reason to disregard an argument

If a game is only 2 hours long and I paid over 3 dollars for it, that game better fucking suck my dick at the end or it will get refunded.

Video games aren't the movie theater. I'm not paying 15 bucks for 2 hours of entertainment, regardless if it's the "most insane entertainment ever wow omg only 2 hours but its the best thing ever really trust us", the shit better perform literal miracles at that price for only 2 hours total.

>>381881986
>It's not like Gone Homo where you only get one end (shit) and then you're done with it forever.

The real issue here is that Gone Home is 20 fucking bucks. THAT'S the real problem. The game itself, meh, it was kind of alright. For 3 bucks or something it would've seemed fair and I don't really mind games like these being on Steam as long as the price is acceptable. And I mean, if you don't like these games you can just filter them.

They really need to start working on better stories though. Fuck's sake, was there really a need to make a game about a girl who loves a girl and get to be together despite their personal struggles. Who gives a shit.

>>381882284
Bingo. If refunds are seriously threatening your finances, you might want to reconsider what you're doing.

If you can't make a game that doesn't last for more than 2 hours. You can't make a game and you shouldn't expect people to pay for it.

>>381879808
I kind of agree with this ass-sperger.
Wouldn't mind a system that is something like: "Games Under 10$ can only be returned within an hour"

>>381884465
>>381882284
You might want to reconsider your agreement with the retarded sperg.

>"But you don't have to buy it!"

But the developers don't have to sell it

>>381878132
Better question is FullBlast a good Shmup?
I like Shmups but on steam many are hot garbage, is this one good?

>>381878191
fpbp

>>381884143
Short stories are a form of entertainment that people pay for. Why not short games? Some people enjoy stuff like this that can easily be completed in one go.

>>381878380
This.

>>381878132
Maybe they should try a lil harder and stop creating these cash grabs that can be beaten in 2 hours?

>>381884939
Short stories are usually compiled

>>381885252
recently buying single digital short stories has become a thing

>>381882469
No. You obviously read a guide or watched a letsplay before playing.

>>381881986
If it has replayability and I do not become interested enough to replay?

What are First Sale rights
Enforcement of EU ruling over FSR on digital goods when?

>>381885551
Games that focus on replayability tend to be aracadey-type games. If you're not interested in replaying, you're probably not interested in the game in the first place.

>finish game in 20 hours
>ask for refund
>denied
>cite eu law
>refund approved
this is how you do it faggots

>>381878132
Yes. Each game should have a percentage that allows you to get a refund.
One hour of a game like Metal Gear Rising isn't like one hour with The Witcher 3. It's fucked up.

>>381885673
And playing it once and refunding is my try policy. That's what refunds are for.

>>381885741
Do I need to move to Europe to make this work?

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>>381878132
Considering you've asked this at least 19 other times, you should know it by now

>>381878132
If a game is fun, you keep it. There's a lot of arcade games that can be completed in under an hour but if they're fun, you keep playing them, trying to be better at them.
Also if the game is too easy I can see people preferring to refund.

>>381878132
I refunded Nex Machina afer beating it. But then I wanted to play it more so I bought it again..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZh_QHezYZM

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There should be no limit. You should be able to refund games whenever you want within 30 days of purchase no questions asked.

>>381885741
Based Europe.

>>381885474
nah, i just know the game by heart since the 90s

>>381886065
You can do this if you are from Europe
Either 2 weeks or 1 month, can't remember exactly, and playtime doesn't matter

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>>381885850
Was 5 seconds away from posting this.
Changing the filename and modifying the copy paste bait is just sad.

Wonder how many people farm cards and refund games for a living

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>>381878132
What sort of developer would spend all the time required to make a game, and then not spend that extra little bit to give it extra content or alternative play modes to extend the playtime? Who would spend months, and then refuse to spend a few more weeks?

That being said, if the game was a lot of fun I don't think most people would refund it. It's not an issue of playtime, but of quality.

>>381885850
>>381886246
Is this some weird reverse psychology shilling? Why would anyone bother doing so many similar threads?

>>381879982

If you do that then the VAST majority of people aren't going to refund because it's a quality title that will be worth replaying.

And the people that do refund were probably just going to pirate it without the option.

>>381886491
Modern devs don't include unlockable/replayable content for some reason

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>>381878132
Why not, if only for the sole reason it'll edge us ever so slightly closer to another crash in the gaming market.

>>381887418

Vidya is too big to fail at this point unless the failure comes from the console devs which it wont because they're basically just producing PCs at this point.

>>381887636
>>381887418
Huge industries don't die, they just contract

>>381887636
>Wii U, xbone and PS4 are a total disaster
>People still buy millions of them
Yea, doubt they'd die anytime soon

>>381887249
It's no wonder people refund their games, then, with that kind of attitude from the developers. Alternative play modes, difficulty settings that are more than just +damage/health, new game+, etc., have all been well established for a long time now. Fans doing pistol starts in Doom, 3 heart runs in Zelda, modding, and so on and so forth - just because they enjoy the games and want to play more - is not just fun for the players, but beneficial for the developers as they maintain a player base and see a longer tail on their game sales.

We got universities teaching video game development, but apparently no-one remembers what makes video games fun to begin with.

>>381887751
>Making fun games
>Ever
If people like your games they won't bother to buy newer games, it's suicide.
Make trash games with generic design that people just love, make millions and start the sequel

>>381878380
>>381878508
>Arcade games shouldn't exist or be sold
Fucking nu/v/, go play whatever shitty AAA cinematic experience you bought recently and stop talking about games, as you don't have a fucking idea abot them.

How about a reason to play past 2 hours?

>>381881823
Then why everyone buy games at steam sales and bundles for 2 dollars or less, faggot?

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>>381881823
>Savant - Ascent
>shit

>>381888025

No child or adult ever picked up, from scratch, an arcade game and completed it in under two hours. Assuming we're talking about actual games like Metal Slug and not high score bullshit.

>>381885741
Which law in particular?

>>381889042
Directive 1999/44/EC

>>381889627
>1999 may 25th
So why was it only enforced 15 years later?

>>381878380
The 2 hour rule doesn't even apply most of the time.

>>381885741
I never got this and it seems rife for abuse.

>buy pants
>wear for a year
>decide I don't like
>refund

Does that work? Food? Like, eat an entire steak, refund? Go to the movies and get a refund every time? Drive a car for a year and get a refund?

>>381890080

Because Valve are are money grubbing turbo kikes and amerifats are retarded corporate cum guzzlers.

You COULD get it if you spent like 3-4 months playing email tag with their godawful customer service. Then Australia (who have similar laws) sued them and EU threatened to sue them, and they just decided to roll out a shitty cutrate (by EU / Aus standards) '2 hour play time' refund, when both statutes have a 2 week 'cooling off' period in which refunding is allowed.

If you put in the comment when refunding (even after 2+ hours) that you are invoking your countries consumer laws and they override Valves refund offer they will give it to you.

>>381890320

None of those work you fucking mongoloid.

The period for refunding is 2 weeks. And it doesn't extend to shit like food, or plane / concert tickets and other items and services that have special needs in this regard.

>>381890364
>when both statutes have a 2 week 'cooling off' period

So, theoretically a person could trade in a car for free every 13 days.

>>381890497
Movies?

>>381879808
>shitting on Titan Quest
Fuck you and fuck short games. If it's under 2hrs of content, it's not worth bothering with. I wouldn't even pirate it.

>>381890668

Unless you walk out in the first 15-20 minutes, no.

>>381890591

Theoretically, but that's a fuckload of hassle and after 3-4 months you'd run out of dealerships willing to sell to you.

>>381890812
So....Why does it seem video game company's get the shaft here?

Every other form of entertainment seems to be protected here.

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>>381878132
This consumerist shit only devaluates the value of good games, fuck the european retards for allowing the refund shit

>>381890931
kys my man

>>381888813
I did exactly that with Turtles in Time on arcade. Granted, it's not the hardest game ever.

>>381890931
>i dont need no rights i live in the land of the free

>>381890909

> Every other form of entertainment.
> Cinemas are the only other form of entertainment.

Look, when devs start opening up 2 hour 'experience' pods where people can pay 20 bucks to go into an airconditioned room with a series of snacks ect and play vidya for 2 hours, then they'll get the same treatment as cinemas.

As of right now, buying a dvd you get 14 days to return it, buying a vidya you get 14 days to return it.

>>381879808
Guess what fucko. If the game was a masterpiece most people wouldn't refund it

>>381891090
It seems euros have the same damn refund laws as the US does.

I mean, they can't pull this BS on movies at the theater after watching it all, the only things they can do this is on video games.

>>381891259

Also, the reason Cinemas, Concerts et all have it different is because the company has limited items to sell. If the laws applied the same to them some asshole could just buy all 200 seats to a movie screening and refund them 15 minutes before the screening and fuck with the business.

>>381891304
The problem here is that you do not consume software like you do other media. Of course you can't pull this shit in movies, theater or a concert unless something fucking bad happens.

>>381891259
Buying a DVD is depreciated due to it coming out AFTER theaters (the majority of the time). People go to theaters to see the movie, getting a refund on the TICKET would be applicable and logical given such a system (but obviously abuse worthy).

It seems shitty to me that you could consume a product in its entirety THEN refund it.

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>>381879808
Just stop coming to this shithole. It's literally full of children. There is nothing of value here. Get real friends.

>>381891550
>It seems shitty to me that you could consume a product in its entirety THEN refund it.

Who cares what you think? What if the last 5 minutes of a game / film is utter garbage to the point it retroactively ruins any enjoyment garnered from the first portion? Why are you against consumer rights?

It's not like the companies that operate in our countries are buckling under the pressure of every second purchaser refunding everything just because they can, people generally only do it if the product is shit. Why do you give so much of a shit about muh poor multimillion dollar companies

Are you American?

>>381891523
Nah, not applicable because there is no consumption of the media.

>>381891547
But you still do consume it.

Two hours is a bit lame. I would put it on a sliding scale based on cost. 1 hour every 10 dollars, but I digress.

>>381890080
I've managed to get several refunds on Steam years before the refund system was in place, just took some arguing and citing local laws to do it.

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if you just make it a good game people won't have the compulsion to return it.

>>381891738
Because the ability to abuse is there, and being a shitty consumer can force businesses to adopt even more shitty business practices

UPlay wouldn't exist if fags didn't pirate shit and make Ubisoft think they need to batten down the hatches

>>381891769
The fact that you do consume it does not mean the same when you're comparing long lasting and short lasting objects. Foods, software, means of transportation, housing, clothing even, fall under long lasting category, meanwhile short lasting category would be something you cannot "keep"

>>381892157
>Implying modern Ubisoft games are worth pirating

>>381891738
>What if the last 5 minutes of a game / film is utter garbage to the point it retroactively ruins any enjoyment garnered from the first portion?

Because you have now experienced the entertainment in its entirety, and thus lose the moral right to demand recompense.

The problem with legalizing it this way is you can decide to "not like the last. 1%" of every game and thus game the system.

>why do you care
1) Morals, I am an honest man and live my life honestly. This is personal though, and honor does not exist on the internet. When I spend money I understand it's a risk (like any time you do). If I get burned by a company I won't buy from them again, but due to the intrinsic value of entertainment I won't demand my money back. However the issue here is abuse, and why I care, so again I digress..

2) logic. Because companies are made of up people. Such abuse does not hurt the "company" it hurts the little guys working there. They are the ones who get cut out when the budget shrinks due to said abuse.

>>381891090
>I need daddy goverment to protect me from being a stupid shit and buying bad games without googling the game to see if I will like a game, also, I love muslims, lets keep them coming

>>381892157
>Because the ability to abuse is there

Most laws can get abused. Just because it can doesn't mean it is, and just because it can, doesn't mean the underlying principals that lead to consumer laws aren't a net positive for the vast majority of citizens of the countries that adopt them.

The average consumer is not miserly kike rubbing their hands together thinking about the best ways to rip off businesses with every purchase.

Seriously though, are you American?

>>381892479
>being so fucked in the ass you begin to enjoy it
Mudslims can die in a ditch for all I care

>>381892315
You cannot keep a meal, aka food, anon.

The analogy does not make sense.

>>381892316
Then don't buy ubisoft. But consumeing their entertainment then defrauding them means it is intrinsically worth buying, you just simply are not.

If you can complete their game in the 2 hour refund window then paying any more than one or two dollars for it is a complete ripoff

>>381892452

So, rather than get a refund, show them you don't like their product, you'd rather just pay them and then fade into the noise? Let them continue to produce shit that will presumably 'burn' other people?

I think most companies / countries have far, FAR bigger worries when it comes to the viability of their business than people refunding shit they don't like.

>>381892486
I'm not even the guy you were first replying too

It's basically a he-said-she-said at this point but if threads like these and others have taught me anything it's there there are actually a lot of fuckin likes rubbing hands out there

>>381892452
>We don't need laws because people are smart and vote with their wallet
It only works in theory, we both know people love getting shit and ask for more.

>>381892640
Oh but you do. Where do you think it stays when you consume it?
You can get a refund when it damages your health.

>>381892682

And there would be far fewer if businesses didn't think they were entitled to their customers dollar in perpetuity.

>>381892801
Chicken or the egg nigger

I'm inclined to believe the jew came well before the shitty business practitioner

>>381878132
Nope, they should make a more substantial product

>>381892791
>Oh but you do.

Irrelevant, as with a meal you are not paying for its base nutritional value.

>>381878681
Compilations exist for a reason anon

>>381892875

Who is better suited to break the chain of disillusionment that drives resentment of companies from consumers and resentment of consumers by companies?

Literally hundreds of millions of individuals with varying beliefs and ideals running the gamut, with no unifying feature other than 'consumes a variety of product', or a handful of major companies in the same industry?

>>381878132
>only did normal mode
>he "beat" the game

theres only 10 cheevos dude

If you beat a game in under two hours and think "I'm never gonna touch this game again" would you really want to keep it?

>>381892735
>It only works in theory
No, shitty businesses go out all the time.

>People love getting shit

Nope. You assume they do because your definition of good is not theirs.

However, this is not a defense of defrauding a company because it's irrelevant, they are not getting your money either way. The argument here is moral and logical. Logically, why even bother with the opportunity cost of a bad game? By defrauding a company by playing a game you are logically stating the game is worth investment.

>>381878132
If I can beat your game in under 2 hours, you didn't deserve my money anyways.

>>381878132
No, customers need more protection from devs that try to sell their freeware shit for multiple dollars.

>>381893220
Shitty businesses stay alive all the time too

>>381893138
What is this high minded, long-winded pretentious bullshit

We're not talking about Wall Street here you nu-age hippie. If a game takes under two hours to complete it's content you can bet your sweet ass it's from a hobbyist or a small ass indie dev. You're not waging war against Goldman fucking Sachs you fag.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm some sucker of cigar toking fat cat dick but all I'm saying is that companies are shitty but consumers can absolutely be just as shitty. We need disarmament, not escalation.

>>381893610
>Shitty businesses stay alive all the time too

Depends on your definition of shitty.

Entertainment is by definition subjective, so let's put that aside.

Business that deliver an inferior product to market (keep in mind price points here) go out of business all the fucking time. The only time businesses stay in business with an inferior products is due to government keeping them afloat, 100% of the time.

>>381893803
>Make shitty product
>Get lucky and retards buy it in droves for years
>Eventually someone else make a better product
>Get bought by shitty company and turned to shit but keep the name
>Retard buy the new shitty product because it's new
>Rince and repeat
Hope you're enjoying your Comcast monopoly

>>381893716
>If a game takes under two hours to complete it's content you can bet your sweet ass it's from a hobbyist or a small ass indie dev. You're not waging war against Goldman fucking Sachs you fag.

This.

Due to this, a sliding scale of 1 hour per 10 dollars (16 mins a dollar) for refunds.

I think only the biggest jew would disagree to this.

>>381894017
>Get lucky and retards buy it in droves for years

This does not happen. Retards will buy shit once, and then never again.

>muh internet monopoly

Litterally happens due to government.

My local government did not sell sole rights to infrastructure, so I have many ISP providers to choose from, even local ones like grande.

Your making my point.

>>381890364
What's worse?
>having companies make money because the average consumer is retarded
or
>letting your government arrest you for thoughts and ideas because the average citizen has no say whatsoever

Damn, you sure showed them AND you saved 2 whole dollars. Now run down to the corner store and treat yourself to an ice cream with that money.

Good boy.

>>381878132
> Do devs need extra protections if you complete their game and get a refund on Steam?
Just fucking introduce partial refund system instead. You know, like "used games" stuff that was popular in 2000s. If a person wants to forfeit his legal ownership of a game in exchange for a partial refund (the sum of refund depnding on the amount of hours spent in-game), why not let him do it?

>>381891042
Arcade games are money eaters, pal. If you enter enough money, you can eventually beat it fast enough. The same rules do not apply on consoles or PC games.

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>>381894278

>>381894281
Calling the average consumer retarded because they like things you don't like is pretty fallacious...

>>381894620
Have you seen the average consumer?

They're pretty retarded

>>381894617
I fail to see your point here?

Clearly MW2 does not need dedicated servers. The consumer is quite literally speaking in that group, even if they joined a group stating otherwise. If it was truly a problem, that list would be quite different.

Market forces are a bitch.

>>381894714
Nah. They just like things I don't.

For example, I would not call Michael Bay movies bad. I do not enjoy them, but they are clearly viable forms of entertainment.

>>381894910
Ah, I see

You're one of those retarded average consumers

>>381895046
>calling people who like what I don't like retarded makes me enlightened

Nah, it just makes you conceited.

>>381894824
No, you miss the point. They joined the group before the launch to boycott and protest the lack of dedicated servers yet there they are playing it anyways because they're idiot mindless consumers that gotta have they CALLADOOTY

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>tfw poorfags and their refunds are the reason Steam sales went to shit

I hope it was worth it, you poverty-ridden fucks

>>381895317
>They joined the group before the launch to boycott and protest the lack of dedicated servers

OK, I understood this...

>yet there they are playing it anyways

Thus the perceived lack of servers were not a problem for them.

>because they're idiot mindless consumers that gotta have they CALLADOOTY

No, because the positives of the game outweighed the negative. The perceived positive opportunity costs of playing the game outweighed the negatives.

That does not mean they are retarded anon.

>>381895537
I think you're giving CoD fans a little too much benefit of the doubt. Have you ever met one in person?

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>>381893164
So this mentality proves that you aren't refunding it because you weren't satisfied with the product, but because you are exploiting a system not for its intended use just because you can.

>>381895720
>I think you're giving CoD fans a little too much benefit of the doubt.

No, because there is no other way to really cognitively accept that reality. They may not understand why, or not be able to put it coherently, but that's exactly what happened.

In short, decidated servers did not mean shit to the average COD player.

>as a side note the whole dedicated server is a meme, it does not make the MP instantly better.

>>381879808

This, ladies and gentlemen, is an example of 'strawman.' Literally nobody on the planet would defend a 7-hour long $80 game. Yet this person uses the imaginary person they just made up who would, as an argument.

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>>381878132
The two hour limit is retarded as fuck, a percentage limit would be better, just reject everyone who tries to refund a game if they completed more than 33% of the game

>>381878132
>>381878410
This is why you niggas don't get ports.

>>381896320
Percentages aren't going to fix shit though really. Devs will just front load good content in the game and leave the back end barren.

>>381885850
>>381886246
>>381886508
>>381878132
Just leave poor OP alone, imagine how pathetic is his life that he has to post the same thread over and over again, this thread is the only good thing that happens to him, no one loves him and no one wants to spend some time with him, our replies are the only thing keeping him from giving himslef a shotgun mouthwash treatment

>>381878132
No. They deserve what they get.