>"we want a brutal PvP conquest MMO!!!!" >okay

Darkfail was regularly shilled on /v/ before and during release.
The game was objectively unlikable and even the shills eventually gave up trying to convince people.

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>"we want an old school cRPG!!!!"
>okay senpai, here's it
>it fails

What went wrong?

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>"we want an old school arena FPS!!!!"
>okay lads, here it is
>it fails

Why are people so unaware of what they want?

>>379252049
Wasteland 2's writing was atrocious.

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>We want a sjw game
>ok senpai, here's it
>it fails

>>379252458
Still way more than it ever deserved.

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>"we want the hard core raider mmo!"
>here it is you wowfags
>it fails

>>379252458
I can't wait to learn what Bioware was working on to make them outsource their flagship game.
We'll see in a week I guess.

>>379251869
>>379252049
>>379252179
loud minority

>>379252592
Literal Destiny clone. EA has already said that it is a Science Fiction/Fantasy "live service" game based on a new IP.

>>379252696
>copying a failed game

?

In the grand scheme of things, what specific type of game you get is relatively inconsequential to if it's actually well-made. Now, it's possible for people to enjoy heavily, even deeply, flawed games (most of my favourites actually fall in this category), but even then it tends to require excellency in one or more aspects of the game beyond it managing to be a part of some specific genre (the mere fact that a game doesn't feature a third-person or second-person camera probably doesn't make an FPS enthusiast like it). Even adequacy won't really cut it: why would you play it over any of the classics? There are some things modern games could with relative ease improve upon (such as UI or graphics, which might not be high on the priority list but they're a low-hanging fruit that's at least something) but often times even that isn't the case with these supposed revivals. They're just flat-out inferior to games they were inspired by.

>>379252728
What are you talking about? It sold like 30 million copies, had ridiculous player retention rates for all the DLCs/expansions, still has a huge playerbase 3 years out from its release, and generates hundreds of millions in free money every year from people buying stupid cosmetic trash. By every possible metric Destiny is the most successful thing released this generation.

>pvp shitter game
>brutal conquest PVP
>literal nothing but nude dudes ganking eachother in giant faggot circlejerks

>>379252949
I was thinking about Titanfall. I didn't play either and confused the two.
Not that even Titanfall failed much, but it definitely didn't reach its ambitions.

I haven't even played Destiny, now that I realize what game that actually was.

>>379251869
did a good job at separating the all-talk casuals from the true gamers. fantastic, but unpolished game.
>>379252049
shit writing, shit roleplaying, most quests just have one or two ways to complete
>>379252179
was just a straight up UT3 clone with less interesting maps and weapons and UT3 was pretty shit to begin with
>>379252553
was only for hardcore raiders for purpose of advertising, game was unbelievably casual, they tried doing guild wars 8 skill limit thing but without any of the actual synergies or interesting skills of guild wars, and the "hardcore" dungeons amounted to just a bunch of GET OUT OF THE RED CIRCLE IDIOT fights. also obnoxious aesthetic

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>>379251869
All the examples you posted are just awful games in general. Not that I think there was a market for the demographic they thought existed. Market research is important, marketing is important, style, top notch game design, and polish are extremely important. These games did none of these right.

It's always the same. They make shit games and complain that there's no audience. They don't market and complain that there's no audience. They drive away people with their decisions and complain that there is no audience.

>>379253097
It didn't really help the leveling was atrocious and the Attunement, along with the bugs, kill the game at launch.

>>379252458
>sold less than Nier:Automata
How is such a thing even possible.

>>379253071
Fuck, what did I write?
I played Titanfall. I didn't play Titanfall 2. I didn't play Destiny.
When you said Destiny, I thought you are talking about Titanfall.

There, simple english simple post. Excuse my brainfarts.

>>379253220
Leotard/high thigh panties, my good anon.

>>379252553
>have bad guy faction
>dont leave any moral wiggle room for fags to pretend they're not really that bad

Game mechanics irrelevant, it was doomed to fail because of this.

>>379253221
>>379253071
Titanfall 2 was just sad, could have been a big hit but EA had to release it right between CoD and Battlefield 1.

>>379251869
It wasn't another WoW clone, that's what went wrong.

>We want an open world MMO with deep crafting, combat, PvP and housing!
>Nobody shows up and goes back to raiding in WoW

>>379253321
The Exile or the Dominion? Despite the advertisement, the game made Exile out as the evil bad guys by a long shot.

>>379253416
Oh pardon me looks like they did leave some room for the cartoon villains to feel good about themselves. Didn't really bother with them much outside of the crystal titty robots for a bit.

>>379252870
This is a good argument.

>>379252458

>iOS

Wtf, this was on iphone too?
And it didn't even sell anything!?

>>379253523
It more on presentation
>Exile Human are butthurt about the pass and threw a hissyfit and rebel may years ago
>Granok attack the Dominion when the Dominion was interested in adding them to their rank. Keep in mind that the Granok in the game are EXILE from their own planet because they were in a civil war about how they handle their meeting with Dominion in the first place
>Mordesh was about to join the Dominion until they got a potion for eternal life... which cause them to become zombies that can effect everyone
>oh and the Mordesh love to poison innocent people in many of the quests
>Aurin are just unlucky fuck because they harbor traitor to the Dominion

>>379252553
>Wildstar

This is Project Titan that Blizzard cancelled after closed beta testing. The people in charge of it left Blizzard, so they can release their game that they worked on for years and loved. They created new assets and released it as Wildstar.
Meanwhile, Blizzard reused the assets they had left and released a safe Team Fortress type game, and called it Overwatch.

Comparing Overwatch and Wildstar player bases, reviews and revenue, I think Blizzard was right to cancel it. It may be good, but there aren't enough people who actually want a hardcore raiding MMO. They say they do, but they clearly don't, sales prove it.

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>>379251869
What went wrong? Maybe releasing the same game under 3 different fucking names and splitting the player base of a low population game repetitiously.

The quality of this game alone never warranted a monthly subscription, once the novelty of taking someones mount or armor or weapon wears off because you have tons in the bank it really just becomes annoying.
I hate to say it, but darkfalls combat just wasn't that great. I honestly think they should pay people to play it at this point.

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>>379253785
There is something called Andromeda, but its not the actual game. I think its a component of the game.
As in, you play before work, while at work you do some missions on your phone to gain in game currency, and when you get home you spend it.
Works in theory, not sure if it worked in reality. Haven't played it, and I don't own an Apple phone anyways.

Loving how the "hardcore community" tries so hard to justify their niche, even though their existence itself is a joke. None of these so-called hardcore players actually want to play the game as much as "winning". These people are always the first ones to quit at the sign of losing and will blame anything but themselves, often jumping ship to another new game to have another try at winning it, hence there are always, without fail, a widely criticized "flaw" on any game made to support these people. And in the rare chance they do manage to win, they will try to keep it as is, often messing up the game to protect their status quo.

>>379251869
Open unrestricted PvP.

/v/ likes to shit on me, but I am CONVINCED that the number one reason these 'hardcore' mmos fail is because they invariably feature open unrestricted PvP, usually with player looting too.

Nobody wants to waste their time trying to play the game and getting ganked and camped by some faggot a billion levels above you or decked in full gear while you have nothing but a club.

Open PVP brings out the absolute worst in people; it highlights how deep down everyone but a very few people are absolute cunts who will fuck over everyone else on a whim, not even for gain, just to be a cunt.

Fuck open PvP.

>>379252553
Except that it has follow-the-arrow questing that puts neo-WoW to shame among all the other garbage (and besides general style of the game, it also features sickening visual style, completely forgettable setting etc). It's very very far from appealing to its alleged target audience, like changing Mass Effect camera to first-person and then trying to sell it for Quake fans (they don't want just any FPS, and narrative-heavy single player game just doesn't cut it).

>>379253810
>rebels and victims of the evil empire
>cyborg zombies and the tinkering pikachus being the wild card on the opposite side than you would expect cuz they thought it would be funny or something

So what did they do wrong here?

>>379253810
more like
>cockney speaking humans got tired of being shit on by posh richfag humans
>dominion tell some buff stone people to join or die. get told to fuck off.
And the reason some granok got exiled themselves is because some of them used the dominion's own weapons against them. something the elders didn't like because muh honor.

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>"we want an open-dynamic-world non-tab-targetting skill-based TPS MMORPG!!!!"
>okay senpai, here's it
>it fails

What went wrong?

>>379254528
firefall was literally grind: the game

>>379254149
What if there is a bounty system?

>people give X of some PvP currency when killed
>this is reduced every time you die, so repeated deaths make you less desirable to kill
>this is increased every time you kill, so killing sprees make you more desirable to kill

If you get camped for a while, you are a 0 currency kill, not worth killing. At this point, anyone who kills you is marked on the map for other people, since they are killing a person who spend the last 10 minutes dying repeatedly. Basically torturing the poor guy.
If you kill a lot of people very fast, you get a very high bounty, and as some landmark is reached you get marked on the map for nearby players. That way everyone knows there is a serial killer PvP god in the area, to avoid or hunt him for that thick delicious currency bounty.

Basically trying to balance things by making it less desirable to camp, and more desirable to seek out gankers to kill.

>>379251869
game plays like shit
potato production value
despite a vocal minority claiming to like them vastly outdated concepts are outdated for a reason and nobody really enjoys them 24/7

>>379254261
>It's very very far from appealing to its alleged target audience
No, it targeted hardcore raiders pretty well. even now with all the power creep, wildstar has the best group content of any mmo currently. the problem is when people call themselves hardcore raiders what they actually mean is "hardcore" raiders.

>>379254657
Isn't the other problem is the fact that the leveling just fucking suck and you need to be max level to get a taste of it?

>>379252049
Delete this

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>we want a turn-based tactics game about defending the earth from invading aliens
>it succeeds

what went right?

>>379254715
Leveling wasn't that bad at all. The worst you could say about it was it was standard and didn't try anything new.

>>379254809
>1% chance to get hit
>it succeeds

Thats XCOM, baby!

>>379254613
Problem is that it is infinitely abusable. Ganker ganks people for funsies, gets his friend to kill him later and they split the bounty.

Also you are forgetting that cunts are cunts period, regardless of whether they get rewarded for killing you or not (which they do because they collect the bounty on themselves with a friend).

This same sort of thing is the reason nobody uses the bounty system in EVE.

>>379251869
People don't actually want that. They think they do, but they don't, because games like that are always dominated by a small selection of autists and everybody else just eats shit.

It's not actually fun for the majority of players.

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>>379252553

I enjoyed Wildstar, but didn't stick to it for 3 reasons.

1. Aesthetic: There is a fine line between wacky and loud. WS pushed it too far. I don't mind a little humour, but there needs to be a balance.
2. Shallow customisation: People play RPGs to customise their characters; unique builds, stats and items. Everything in WS was scaled back for casuals. Well guess what, casuals don't stick around and hardcore players don't like casual progression, so WS lost both groups while trying to pander to both at the same time.
3. Level design: It was all the same, big open areas. WoW mixed it up a lot, but to cater to professions WS had all these big open areas that just felt lifeless.

With a few tweaks WS could have been amazing, but unfortunately it is just another footnote in history.

Did enjoy making waifus though.

>>379255037
>Everything in WS was scaled back for casuals
Very little has actually been scaled back. What happened was players were scaled up with better gear that's easier to get. Not BiS stuff but still good enough to ignore some mechanics. The good thing about wildstar's design though is some things don't give a shit about your ilvl. If you can't dodge, you die.

>>379255037
>Wildstar
>Pandering to Casuals

I don't think so, Tim.

There were a LOT of problems with wildstar, but it did not pander to casuals. The attunements required for endgame content alone surpassed vanilla/tbc WoW standards.

WS was geared towards hardcore players. Where they failed was in not realizing that those hardcore players were hardcore a decade ago when WoW was new, and now they've grown up and gotten careers and are no longer hardcore, and no new hardcore audience has replaced them because of the continual casualization of the video game community.

To be succinct: Wildstar tried to make a game for a community that did not exist anymore.

>>379254031
It should also be noted that "the hardcore" need the casuals to keep the world seem lively, to keep the cogs of economy running, sometimes stepping up to the hardcore level and consequently providing a recruitment pool of players outside of poaching players from other guilds and of course, being the losers, chaff and the prole such that the hardcore can "win". And conversely, "the casuals" need someone to figure out the game for them, to be the source of luxury materials and crafts, to have someone to look up to, to do the content while it's challenging so as to make the victory seem worthwhile when the casuals themselves do it holding all of the advantages (figured out tactics, farmed gear, nerfed encounters etc).

It's in principle possible to have games aimed exclusively at the hardcore or the casuals, but I'd argue MMOs work much better when they appeal to both demographics.

>>379254149
Just my opinion but I don't think it's necessarily the pvp, it's that there are no meaningful restrictions.
Darkfall had a racial alignment system that everyone could ignore, so when you were out in the world there was no reason to NOT attack whoever you ran across assuming you could win. It became basically a fuckhuge deathmatch map with crafting and bases.
Which is fun but not really a rpg and not that much "sand" in the sandbox it was billed as.
It doesn't have to be needlessly restrictive regarding player killing, but there has to be at least a reason to not murder anyone not in your friends list.

>>379255317
But that's the core of the problem. Open PVP games do not have that reason, and to date no one has figured out a way to give a compelling reason to the players to not brainlessly murder each other on sight. The players just ignore it every time.

The only thing that works is restricting PvP and not allowing them to attack each other period, unless they agree to a duel or are in a designated PvP zone or something.

And before someone says it, no, having the whole game as a 'PvP zone' does not work because that defeats the meaning of a 'PvP zone'. A pvp zone is supposed to be a small area of the game world devoid of in-game resources where players can go to kill each other for honor points or whatever pvp currency the game has.

darkfall most shit graphics ps1 level

>we want blah blah blah
>loud minority

>>379255294
The thing is though, most people who consider themselves to be hardcore and a cut above the rest are actually just shitters.

The number one important thing in any MMO ever is popularity. If there's no new players coming in and not an active and large population the game will be dogshit regardless of all other aspects (not to say any of these games are hidden gems they are mostly shit in any regard). So by default "hardcore" MMOs can't possibly sustain themselves because even if you can convince yourself you like the gameplay there's nothing to play when the game is dead 2 weeks after launch.

>>379255219
>>379255208
>>379255037
I'll never understand the whole "Wildstar was TOO hardcore!" meme. I did the attunement and I guess the hardest part about it was the silver dungeons, and those were pretty much just completing them without wiping multiple times. Unless we're not associating hardcore with difficulty, then I'd say people were just lazy and didn't want to do the attunement.

>>379255317
>>379255478
>crime system
>murdering someone that didn't agree to a duel makes you a criminal
>other players get points for killing you in the next X minutes

And soft "safe zones", as in zones where NPCs will help whoever gets attacked, and these NPCs should be consequential. Maybe not do much damage, since thats not fun, but do slows, debuffs, so on.

>>379255037
>>379255208
>>379255219
You're actually talking about different things.

The first poster isn't talking endgame at all, but overall game design and feel.

The other 2 posters clearly reached endgame, and are arguing from that perspective.

Personally, I didn't get far because the game wasn't fun at all.
Grinding out levels wasn't fun it never is
the dungeons I participated in weren't difficult they never are before endgame
the announcer was completely obnoxious, shouting at you all the time and completely breaking any possible immersion.
And my biggest complaint, poor optimization that led to choppy framerates and unresponsive gameplay.

>>379255580
>other players get points for killing you in the next X minutes
You mean his own friends that will divvy up the loot afterwards?

>>379255550
Hardcore is about investment. Difficulty is one way to make the player invest, they have to train and read and research to eat content if its very hard. But also adding a lot of grind, attunement, etc is making the game "hardcore". Demanding investment is hardcore.

>>379255601
>immersion
One thing I like about wildstar is it's an mmo that doesn't really try to hide that it's a game. When you level you get a tryhard guy saying fuck yea. when you teleport to a bind point the AI makes some sarcastic comments getting it right this time, when you resurrect the crypt insults you and cracks jokes about you eating shit.

>>379255646
So what was hardcore about wildstar and its attunement? It wasn't very difficulty and only took a few days to do

>>379255646
>Hardcore is about investment
That's true for the current MMO market, but I feel it's a foolish strategy. People have more and more options to entertain themselves, making stuff more grindy is ultimately a losing strategy.

>>379252553
>"we want the hard core raider mmo!"
Why wouldn't they just play RaiderZ? Oh right, because the average themepark MMO player is too stupid to deal with enemies designed to predict your behavior if you stick yourself into a pattern.

>>379255580
See
>>379254905

Bounty systems never work because of player collusion.

>>379255841
What the fuck is RaiderZ? Sounds like another gook shit mmo.

>>379255478
I disagree. There have been games that have open pvp but also have penalties for murder (defined as attacking/killing someone with a good alignment). It depends on the game but if the penalties don't make it worth it to attack the dude, then people don't.
I get what you're saying in that cunts will be cunts, and that's true, but if you make it difficult to play the game as a cunt by design then there's a lot less of it.

I don't have the answer to that, so it could be a flawed line of thinking. A simple example (not necessarily a fun one but it's one that's been used in lots of old mud games) would be that when you perform an evil act (theft, assault, etc) you get evil alignment points, and then when past a certain threshold you're "too evil" to be protected in an npc city or even wanted by the pretend video game government. Assuming the game has your banked items behind the city walls, you're shit out of luck until your evil points expire unless you want to innawoods and just rob people on the road for the rest of your life.

Eh, that's probably a shitty example, but whatever. My point is that I feel like game design can overcome the limitations you're assigning it.

>>379255914
>is
was

>>379252049

Nostalgia goggles mostly

>>379255825
>So what was hardcore about wildstar and its attunement?
The dungeons. Once upon a time veteran dungeons were part of progression.

>>379255816
Maybe that would play better if the game had a more arcadey feel, but it's the same old "kill 10 boars" questing gameplay, so their excitement or "charm" is entirely lost.

>>379255919
>My point is that I feel like game design can overcome the limitations you're assigning it.
But that would require creative effort, anon!

>>379256018
>if the game had a more arcadey feel
But the game already plays and feels like a platformer. How much more arcadey can it get?

>>379255914
>>379255928
Yeah it was Korean, made by MAIET, and later run through the Arc launcher.
Sadly it doesnt exist any more. It had some of the best combat any MMORPG has ever had.

>>379256121
Good combat and latency don't mix. And MMOs produce latency.
Unless you keep everything micro and instanced, you can't get away with good combat.

>>379256121
>MAIET
Oh, it was the Gunz sequel sort of. Meh.
Shame it's gone though. As a wildstar player, I know even the smallest online games have passionate fans.

>>379255991
I did the original attunement and completing silver in those dungeons for anyone with half a brain wasn't hard at all

>>379256216
>it was easy for me
Congratulations, anon. The rest of us plebs spent more than a while progressing through them though.

>>379254613
Wouldn't work because of player behavior, taking WoW as an example there's literally no reason to kill anyone more than 10 levels below you as there's no reward for it, but that doesn't stop higher level players killing and camping the shit out of low level players. Hell it even prompted the disastrous dishonorable kill system. Just because there's no reward for something doesn't mean people wont do it anyway just to be dicks.

>>379255919
What you are describing is a system much like what was implemented in BDO, based off Karma. It failed spectacularly.

Want to know why? Because players would pillage and murder each other JUST ENOUGH to not go into the 'evil zone' (called red or negative karma). And if they fucked up and went red, they would just get a friend to kill them, then break them out of the in-game prison system.

The point of this is that the penalties for being a cunt will NEVER be harsh enough to adequately discourage brainless PvP, because at the end of the day, it's a video game, and people are simply not invested enough in their characters to care that they are getting known to be 'evil' or have negative karma or whatever system is in the game.

Unlike in real life, where if you are a cunt and murder someone you get imprisoned for a long fucking time or sent to death row (depending on location), there is always a 'get out of jail free' card in video games in which a player can get out of negative karma within a few minutes. In BDO you just had to fuck off to one of the MANY abandoned NPC sites and grind for about an hour to be positive karma again.

Until a game implements extreme penalties for being a cunt, like perma-death for your character if it ever murders another player through unconsented PvP, you will never see this change. And even if it DOES implement that, then it needs to be in a game in which you cannot simply create a billion alts and grind them to PvP gods within a day or two.

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>>379252179
>>379252049
>>379251869
There are millions of people buying games that never go to websites to shitpost about them. The average CoD buyer plays the game with his friends and that's about it. These are the silent majority. Meanwhile, the amount of guys you see screaming for a certain thing is much smaller in comparison. Even if they all buy the game they were begging for, that's just like 1000 guys on some forum at best. It also doesn't help that these games don't get as much advertisement as more popular games in their genre.

For comparison, I recall a bunch of people on /v/ discussing Street Fighter IV a few years ago and complained that it was too defensive. I suggested they play more offense oriented games like The King of Fighters XIII or BlazBlue and they more than likely picked up one or the other. Of course, these games still have a relatively small number of players compared to Street Fighter (especially in the U.S.). Want to know why? The only people that care enough to look for something different are the ones that are already dissatisfied with the product. Think of something you really like that's not a video game. Favorite brand of socks. Favorite type of wallet. Is it your favorite because it was the first and only one that you tried, or did you discover it via a longing created by a dissatisfaction with another, similar product?

>>379256290
Truly the genre is doomed then if you believe Wildstar's Silver dungeons are too hardcore for the average player. All they required was for you to not die continuously throughout the run. I'm just going to believe people were lazy.

>>379252049
>WL2
>failed
huh?

>>379254657
The impression I got from Wildstar marketing (not that I followed it with keen interest) was a supposedly "old school" (I know people have different ideas about what these categories mean but please try to bear with me) game with "hardcore raiding" being one feature and not the single goal of the game. And as far as I can tell, the "old school" for most people doesn't mean just attunements and shit but an actual multiplayer RPG in which raids are perceived as hardcore because you're not necessarily even expected to do them since the meat of the game is in the everything else. And Wildstar is a polar opposite of that with its raiding focus, levelling designed to be skipped, world designed to be ignored (follow-the-arrow questing) etc.

Now, there of course is a demographic that cares about "hardcore raiding" for its own sake too, but I'd argue it's the kind of demographic you see in neo-WoW and not the demographic that were raiders in MMOs ten years ago or more. They don't care much for attunements because they themselves and their legit competition beat them by default (while it's just an annoyance in terms of recruitment), they don't care for farming or any of those things. They want to nolife for a few weeks every now and then in attempt to grab world/region/server firsts and then play leisurely in anticipation of the next patch. And while this might be the actual demographic Wildstar was aiming for, I don't think it's the demographic they marketed the game for specifically, and I question the game actually being perfectly suited for the demographic because Wildstar carries the baggage of pretending to be an MMO as opposed to PvE arena in its pure form.

>>379256502
Do you honestly believe the average mmo player is competent? Not to say the people I played with were bad because it took us a while to beat the first vet dungeon. Between gear, runes, and just getting used tot he fights, we had our work cut out for us. I'm talking about the person who's lvl 50 and doesn't know what a stun is. The person who just can't seem to avoid red.

>>379256330
not the same guy bdo is a shit example to use as a counter argument because it does nothing right. BDOs karma system is so strict it that open PvP only happens when someone wants to steal a grinding spot from you and has the cloak that hides their red name.

in a game like mortal online or even darkfall, karma works because it bars you from entering cities, meaning you have to completely rely on other players, taking refuge in a clan keep or your house, or the lawless city, which is full of pkers just like you.

secondly in open pvp games since there is value lost in death(your items) you get a reputation. Sure you may have killed a guy, but now he's just told his clan about how you pked him and now you got a clan hunting you down. The open pvp system polices itself.

>>379256987
also should add that these games also typically flag you as a murderer if you pk a lot, so it paints a big fucking bullseye above your head.

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>>379251869
>>379252049
>>379252553

People don't know what they want, that's what happened.

>mfw blizz devs were right to say "you think you know what you want"

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>>379254528
the CEO mismanaging all that money is where it went wrong

it's a shame because it was at least decent enough to not be in the state it was, then updates that absolutely nobody wanted started to come and really riled people up.

>>379256913
The guy is just doing the usual /v/ "oh i am so good you are all bad" posing.
I did a lot of raiding in WoW, and we'd always progress slowly. Only very, very few guilds would get things done on their first couple of attempts, the rest of us had gearchecks to keep us slow, and had to learn the fights through trial and error, and so on.
Not true today with all the meta resources, but definitely true then and true for games with smaller player bases that don't justify a dozen websites dedicated to rushing out detailed guides.

>>379256660
Wildstar was supposed to have stuff for pvpers, casuals, and raiders. People just latched onto raiding because muh vanilla wow. It also helped that the promo stuff pushed the hardcore angle too.

>>379257186
That bus isn't even very expensive advertising, when you consider they get to park if in front of whatever conventions/events they go to.

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>>379257186
>the CEO mismanaging all that money is where it went wrong
so many of these lately

>>379257223
>>379256913
you guys should look up videos of those dungeons, see how simple they were, and then promptly realize how dumb you look

>>379257408
I still do those dungeons once in a while. It's cool you and your group had such an easy time but the rest of us mere mortals had to put in a little extra effort.

>>379252553
>NCSoft
There's your fucking problem right there. NCSoft take anything they lay their grubby hands on and through mis-management, incompetence and general exec meddling turn it to shit. I still haven't forgiven them for fucking Tabula Rasa.

>>379258065
wildstar has the best F2P model out of all F2P right now

>>379256179
This. Personally I feel EVE does the best combat simply because you can fight from anywhere in the world and it allows for thousands of people at one time to scrap on.

>>379251869

it was made by a C-tier studio

People say they want open PvP with full loot but they really don't. It's never worked. Didn't work in UO. It just becomes a murder party. Consequences don't really matter if you have alts. Who cares if you get branded if you can just log into your alt and go wherever you want? PvP needs context or it's garbage.

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the genre peaked in '97

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-RLClBXA7Q
Did you just watch this video or something, OP? This shit came out a few hours ago. This guy does good stuff.

>>379253097
>they tried doing guild wars 8 skill limit thing but without any of the actual synergies or interesting skills of guild wars
I still miss it

>>379255208
>if you can't step out of the very obvious red zones you die
and you think that makes a game "hardcore" like they said in every possible trailer?

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>>379251869
>Darkfall
>2009
>graphics of a 2005 game
>gameplay seems spam-clicky, with none of the depth of WoW PvP

>Toxikk
>having anything to do with getting played a lot (and enjoying it)

Few have heard of these games.

/?

>>379252553
2/?

Absolutely awful amounts of leveling at launch.. There's no point to leveling 5-10 characters just to experience end-game PvP or some dungeons, figuring out if it's actually good.

>>379251869
The reboot Rise of Agon is actually good and the team behind it are making good decisions and recently put out a patch which would take Aventurine (the original company) a year to patch in.

>>379261892
When a modder/for fun dev gets very successful, they (very reasonably so) try to monetize. Careful what you wish for.

>>379254031
The casual spectrum isn't a design document. The game's either too grindy or doesn't have enough content, not to mention other aspects of polish.

It's:
PvP
PvE
Economy..

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>>379251869
I've been following DarkFall for years but as european you couldn't play at release date but had to wait 1 whole week or something
This made me and my WoW guild mates lose all interest in the game

>>379251869

The audience who truly wants a griefer's paradise MMO is extremely small, just extremely vocal.

>>379252553
>Hardcore raiding focusing was a mistake, no one wanted to do 10 quests to unlock raid, i swear! Game failed because of it and not because it was unfinished unplayble garbage!!!!!!!!!!!!
>ARR had 200 quests to unlock raid and was second most popular mmo
Gets me everytime, wildstar developers are such a faggots for trying to cover with raiders instead of admiting that their game was trash from the core

>>379252458
japan: 0

Hearthstone used to be perfect

Then they added afk grinding through curios and it became utter shit

>>379251869
>looking forward to Darkfall
>think back to the good times I had with UO
>wait for it to release
>releases
>USA only
FUCK THIS GAME

>>379257186
>>379254528
it was pretty solid but it lacked fucking content

they thought the reason the game wasnt doing well was because it was too complex and not because it had fuck all to do.

so they dumbed the game down making things worse overall while still not really adding much content.

I mean basically on its deathbed did they get around to having multi passenger vehicles with SOME shit to do.

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>we don't need casual version of #gamenamehere
>hey lads we made #gamenamehere but for casual player
>it succeeds
why this keeps happening

>>379253912

Fuck off with your nonsense m8, project titan was the original vision for Overwatch, and the team moved on to make Overwatch. Why the fuck do you make shit up and post it on /v/, jesus christ.

>>379251936
>Darkfail was regularly shilled on /v/ before and during release.

No...it wasn't. I remember two or three threads on it. Maybe UW was shilled, but 09 definitely wasn't.

>>379261760
>muh graphics
>depth of WoW PvP
Can't even tell if this is a serious post or not.

>>379261892
RoA is gonna fail because it didn't address any of the core reasons why DF failed in the first place. ND might have a chance, but realistically it failed when ROA launched.

>>379264448
Blizzard have said multiple times that Project Titan was a new IP MMORPG focused on raiding.
We know that the people who left Blizzard to make Wildstar used to work on Project Titan.

How is that bullshit?

>>379264442
Overwatch was finished and playble game
Can't say the same about 90% of trash in this thread

>>379257186
Talking about Mark Cern, he is working on a new crowdfunded game.
At least this time around, he learned from some of his mistakes and just went with unreal engine instead of trying to make a mess like FF all over again.

>>379264636
>>muh graphics
Cherrypicking.

>>depth of WoW PvP
Vs. single-button?

>>379265128
Was it called Ember or some shit? forgot about it.

>>379265160

If you're really saying WoW had PvP on par with Darkfall's, I don't really know where to begin.

If you played it at all, it was when it released before anyone figured out how to actually fight.

>>379264640
You know, just because some stuff make sense doesn't mean they're right.

Do you even know if the people who left even worked on project titan?

Plus a lot of the character concepts from overatch came from Titan

>>379265418
>Do you even know if the people who left even worked on project titan?
Yes, they said so.

>Plus a lot of the character concepts from overatch came from Titan
And they would fit right into Wildstar.

>>379265590
>Yes, they said so.
Link? Sounds interesting

>they would fit right into Wildstar.
I think that's quite arguable, I mean project titan was always meant to be about heros

So /v/


will Crowfall save the genre?

>>379265590
>>379265875
There were 4 character classes that we know of in Titan

1. Jumpers - literally everyone was tracer, the whole point of the class was to blink and rewind time and they all had chest devices

2. Rangers - Everyone with a long range weapons, such as snipers, and to keep up with mobility everyone had grappling hooks and could run

3. Assassins - all the characters with edgy shit like Reaper and genji, with shotguns and close range/melee choices. their mobility options were the reaper teleports

4. Crusaders - all the tanks, mechanical boosting like reinheart

Literally ANY of these characters would have made Wildstar into a playable fucking game, but nope, they're ALL missing

>>379266194
Maybe they're missing because it's a completely different game...

>>379265386
Close. It's Em8er. Mark is eternally stuck in the late 2000s.

>>379266464
Maybe they are missing because they don't want to get sued. Those mechanics are in Wildstar anyways, they are just less action oriented, because they have to account for latency and the console release they wanted.

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>"we want another diablo clone like Titan Quest"
>okay kouhai here it's
>it's a solid 8/10 (on the realistic scale, not the """critic""" one)

What went right?

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>>379265409
I'm not trying to be super picky, here; but it reminds me of Savage XR with spam casts and the melee.

>>379267012
Expansion fucking when?

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>We want a WoW Clone that runs purely on fanservice
>It succeeds

What happened?

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>>379254528

>What went wrong?

Mark Kern.

Pic related.

https://www.techinasia.com/firefall-mark-kern-sacked-the9-story

>>379267012
>grim dawn
>solid 8/10
PoE fanboy be mad

>>379267194
It had decent PvE encounters and a ton of stuff to waste your time on.
Also looks pretty

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>>379267108
>As is our custom, we've somehow made the expansion bigger than we planned but it's shaping up nicely and I'm looking forward to seeing people play it. We still have a couple months of work to wrap that up and then it will require a testing period but it's getting there.

>>379267271
What?
I like PoE too.

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>>379251869
>"we want a WoW clone in a Final Fantasy setting!!!"
>okay senpai, here's it
>it becomes the #2 most subscribed MMO

What went right?

>>379257186

BUT HE SUPPORTED GAMER GATE.

HE

IS

BASED.

>"we want a vanilla wow server"
>you think you do, but you don't
>the private server community explodes, then implodes

>>379267018
sheesh and someone actually needed to ask why it failed

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>tfw Super Hero MMOs are dead except for DCUO which is meh and Champions Online which is shit.

And those crowd funded ones ain't ever being made.

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>"we want a RPG with guns!!!!"
>okay senpai, here's it
>it fails

What went wrong?

>>379266504
is it even ever going to be finished?
iirc a year+ and all they have to show is a thumper model

>>379267535
there's Marvel Heroes

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>>379267603

THATS NOT AN MMO WHERE I CAN MAKE MY OWN SUPER HERO REEEEEEEEEE

I liked Marvel Heroes, but I got my time out of it. Grinding the same content over and over with different heroes gets old fast.

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>>379267235

I wanted to like Firefall, but it just missed that 'x' factor.

Gameplay was choppy, netcode didn't work that well and the levels just didn't feel good. It also lacked story.

I thought Firefall was going to be the next big thing, but it just kept failing.

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>>379251869
Entropia?

>>379267018
>>379267532
Literally just the melee combat. Go and watch pvp videos of archery and magic and group fights. Then tell me it doesn't have in depth combat.

>>379267018
>>379267532
Because of the way the character system works, every character ends up having every skill, so when you fight you have all the spells, all the heals, all the ranged and melee attacks.
This webm just shows people doing very, very shitty combat, since they don't use anything.

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>tfw we will never get EVE online but in a fantasy setting

>>379268274
So you want to be an accountant for a king?

>>379268030
>>379268168
The point is that WoW has CC chains, lots of utility and mobility..

>>379268274
is that the wizard from The Immortal?

>>379268363
As does darkfall. You never seen a wall of force/ray combo before? or the multitude of knock up spells, blinds, AoE's and disables?

>>379268315
More like being a normal person that needs to develop his own career in a fantasy sandbox world, imagine wanting to be a blacksmith, you would either need to hunt down rare materials to make powerful/magic weapons on your own or get one or multiple mercenaries.

>>379268513
>>379268363
On top of that self buffs/ buff others/ bunnyhopping skills for mobility

>>379252049
>Terrible X-Com reboot combat
Stop doing this you fucking cRPGs

>>379252179
I have realized over the years that people don't know what they want.

I remember all those Darkfall shill threads. Another "WoW" killer

Is calling your game the "WoW Killer" the kiss of death? It seems all games that tried this died

Who here EVE Online?

>>379268274
It's such a lot of potential.

>>379268961
Before it used to set ridiculous expectations

Nowadays most people see through the bullshit and just skip even trying it in the first place

>>379268961
Yes, it's always fucking retarded to try to directly compete with the biggest game of your genre and I say that because it doesn't apply to only MMOs but each emerging game needs to find it's own niche to attract a loyal fanbase and then try to expand from there.

>>379268274
>EVE online but in a fantasy setting
Archeage exists except Trino ruined it

>>379254149
Open PvP is not a problem. EvE online is working fine.
Bad mmorpg is the problem, and it s especially true for bad pvp mmorpg.

>>379251869
>Any year ever
>Listening to the vocal minority
There's a reason horse shit like LOL and DOTA are still the most popular games out there.

>>379268168
>every character ends up having every skill
This here is a fucking mistake every time. It doesn't translate into "freedom to build the way you want", it just means you gonna have to branch into everything to get the pvp competitive cookie cutter build going

>>379267574
I don't know and honestly don't care.
The game is as overambitious as his previous, with a fraction of the budget.
Not to mention that is character issues are a major problem.

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I stumbled onto this the other day. It looks like a cross-over between FTL and PoE.

Doesn't look like they have released a demo yet, but if they deliver on all the features it could be awesome.

http://www.fleettacticalcommand.com/

>>379268363
so does GW2, actually GW2 has better pvp depth than wow ever will. suck it fag

>>379269846
>EvE online is working fine.

No it fucking isn't. Lowsec is completely dead, Nullsec is a stale snorefest that is out and out safer than High Sec for people in space owned by their Alliances, and Wormhole space is dominated by 1 Alliance who are at this point totally impossible to evict because they've constructed literally thousands of capital ships in their primary holes and mass limitations mean that anyone trying to evict them is capped at two to three Capitals and a handful of subcaps.
Eve has ENORMOUS issues with its open PvP. Not the least of which is where nobody is willing to fly anything that isn't absurdly fast, basically tankless Kitey faggotry because they're terrified of losing.
Seriously, the Eve PvP "Community" is one of the most incestuous and autistic things in existence. People literally sit on Low-High gates in smartbombing ships to pad their killboard with insta-popped frigates that jump though.

Eve has a lot of things going for it, but PvP is not one of them.

>>379251869
Didn't played the game so I can't tell but MMORPG is a niche to begin with. Contrary to what WOW would want you to think, not that many people are looking for a virtual simulation of a world when you look at it. They don't want to farm, they don't want to invest their time, they don't want to fight unfair battle, ect ect. Most of the assholes that claim they want to play a mmorpg are actually looking for something that never existed in the first place.
And on the other hand, the mechanics that makes a good video games does not work for a mmorpg.

I was in the only avatus world 40 kill by enigma. My warrior was world first parse on multiple fights in datascape. Wildstar was way too easy so can we stop talking about it please

>>379270296
EvE is as old as wow and suffers from some bad decisions that lead to this situation. But still, it s a successfull open world pvp mmo t and is actually the second reference that comes into mind when people talks about mmorpg.

Other games did fine like Lineage 2 in his time. That means open world pvp is not a problem.

>>379270780
eve would be perfect if it wasn't for the retarded skill system, it's not even a question of time sink you just have to sit for years on a character before you can be actually relevant and solo pvp wise or small gangs people that have played longer have important advantages over you.

>inb4 muh logi
nobody wants to do that shit.

>>379254149
>Nobody wants to waste their time trying to play the game and getting ganked and camped by some faggot a billion levels above you or decked in full gear while you have nothing but a club.
This is no argument. A game like EVE has a pod that can get out unless caught, or the character just gets up at a station. ..Just because WoW has shitty rez mechanics says very little about the genre's options.

>>379254149
>>379270934
Also,
>leveling

>>379254149
>>379270934
>>379270973
Oh yeah,
>gameplay content without sandbox loot drops

>>379251869
when they did the darkfall: 2.0 release they destroyed the game. it was actually FUN before that. all they had to do was get rid of the bunnyhop bug and it was going to be good again.

>>379270908
You're completely uninformed. No matter how many years of skill training you have, you're never relevant in solo PvP. The only solo PvP in Eve is for people who have large nullblobs feeding them unlimited isk for the most ridiculously pimped ships, and even then it's usually a waste of time. Solo PvP in Eve is a total meme.

As for small gang, you're relevant in that in a few weeks. Train for an Ewar ship like a Falcon or Arbitrator and you're good to go. You can be in a functional Arbitrator in like 4 days.

>>379271414
I'm not uninformed I fucking played the game, you pit gang of people with new chars that may have played for 10 years but lost their accs, against a gang of people skilling for 5 years and the latter will always win, it takes a fuckload to train t2 ships properly or even get t2 weapons on anything that's not a frigate.

On top the fact that new people start with no ways to make decent money so they will have to invest some time into either mining or exploration if you they don't have a large corp that supports them.

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>>379270296
>Lowsec is completely dead
Concurrent player problem

>Nullsec is a stale snorefest that is out and out safer than High Sec for people in space owned by their Alliances
Null is where most of the PvP happens. There exist, also, design issues with the ownership system -- but the point is that the overall safety and action of null has a lot to do with other mechanics and little to do (nothing?) with ships dropping loot. Gates are camped. Interdiction spheres make flying anything over a frigate into awful odds (not to mention 40k webifiers, etc.).

Speed metagaming comes from it being basically the only way to find fair engagements.

PvP, though, is some of the most skillful MMO gameplay that exists.

>>379270908
It's obvious that a demographic interested in "Jets Online" would find entertainment in skill-queue-less MMOs. The game's fun, but the level of advertising and guidance is ludicrous, and an SP-less game would allow an experience like no other, unhindered.

>>379271816
Anchored bubbles, Jump Freighters, and Capital bridging need to be completely removed from Eve to make Null anything but cancer desu.
JF's and bridging in particular make any kind of tactics completely irrelevant. You press a button and you're immediately in position to defend your space. If it actually took time to get Capitals in the field the game would be vastly better, not to mention the removal of JF's would force Nullblobs to either be self sufficient with large Mining and industry sectors, or freight their shit from Highsec with actual supply lines, which would provide a vulnerability to attack.

Eve without the ability to JF everything you need in complete safety would be a completely different and vastly better game. Imagine it, fucking escort fleets for Freighters carrying thousands of m3 of ammo. Lasers would be a worthwhile weapons system simply because of the reduced Logistics cost.

And Bubbles, as you said, just make everything a pain in the dick unless you fly a Frigate or Nullified t3.

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>>379271414
>>379271786
Both of you are pretty uninformed. Solo comes up a lot against huge blobs, and fresh characters win against skilled toons.

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>>379251869
>>379252049
>>379252179
>>379252553
because he is right

>>379268274
BDO is somewhat similar

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>>379252049
>it fails

You know how Blizzard was all like "you guys think you want it, but you actually don't"? People took offense to that phrase thinking Blizzard doesn't care about their userbase, but Blizzard was 100% right. For example, if people really cared for having a more "alive" MMO sandbox, SWG in its original form would still be alive and far more popular than WoW. If people cared about hardcore PVP, DAOC/Aion/Blade & Soul/Darkfall would all be doing much better as well. For all the vanilla/TBC fags, if they wanted an experience near identical to that mechanically, Wildstar would be super popular right now.

Outside WoW, the only two MMOs that are doing really well right now are:

ESO which uses a TES inspired game mechanics (particularly Skyrim inpsired) which makes for a drastically watered down MMO mechanically compared to what's for par in MMOs.

and

FFXIV which had WoW mechanics but are watered down for the sake of vanity/graphical stuff like more graphically intricate stuff, more crazy looking abilities, etc.

>>379274063
Runescape 2007 has more subs than both TESO and FF14, it's the second most populated MMO currently on the market. It's more popular than RS3.

>>379274063
>doing really well
>ESO

too obvious

>>379274379
How is ESO not doing well? It's expansion came out just today.

>>379274063
A game is pretty much about gameplay. "Sandbox vs. Theme Park" without other qualifiers is making this a pretty baseless post.

>>379274852
It has maybe 14k players? Its numbers are comparable to that vanilla wow private server

>>379275060
>Counting steam for a game that released before steam/had major issues with steam + launcher
You wot?

>>379275132

How should it be counted then?

>>379274063
>SWG in its original form would still be alive

It was literally killed by its devs who saw WoW turning out to be a huge success and wanted to cash in, but failed miserably and destroyed the entire playerbase with literally one update.

>>379275192
There really isn't a way too unless they released numbers themselves. I'm just saying basing a game off purely Steam numbers is trash when its not a sole Steam release.

Zenimax Online has only ever stated the game having ~9 Million "accounts" across all 3 platforms.

>>379275396
>Zenimax Online has only ever stated the game having ~9 Million "accounts" across all 3 platforms.

Runescape hit 300,000,000 accounts about 5 years ago. Accounts is in no way representative of actual players, but if they only have 9 million then they can't actually have many players at all.

>>379275615
Runescape is free and ESO isn't. I also have no doubt that Runescape has more players than ESO but what I'm saying is ESO isn't doing poorly.

>>379267012
It didn't get hyped to shit, had clear and precise promises that were then delivered on and never fell for feature creep.
One of the few really honest crowdfunders.

>>379275921
Featurecreep is the most aggravating thing of all time.

>>379264442
>free beta that was hardly a beta
>blizzard marketing

>>379254613
you are just fucking posting mgo3 bounty hunter mode faggot. It was a good mode tho

>>379274369
RS max active players with both games hasn't gone above 90k
http://www.misplaceditems.com/rs_tools/graph/

FFXIV census shows that with their new expansion not even out yet it's at 439k active.
https://ffxivcensus.com/

We know that ESO added 1.5 million new players within the span of a year. Maybe not every one of them managed to play, but even then that's great for an MMO since MMOs don't get that kind of numbers.

>>379274379
I am sure you can realize from my post that I don't like that game either. Doesn't change how well it's doing.
>>379274914
This isn't what I was exactly talking about. I was obviously mentioning people who always ask for a more immersive MMO world and less theme park carrot on a stick stuff.
>>379275204
That's because SWG wasn't doing anywhere near as well as WoW which is why they made that move to begin with. It just couldn't compete.

>>379276540
>play free beta
>have no idea what I am doing
>still winning and getting MVP
>leave mid game to go take a piss
>still won and got MVP
>play some more, still no idea what i am doing
>get a phone call, play with just one hand, alternating between keyboard and mouse usage
>still win, still get MVP

I stopped after this free period, because the game seemed to be as skill based as Hearthstone.

I apologize, the max RS active players in recent time is 100k not 90k.

>>379276758
I played the beta but had fun, but never bought it. Which I'm glad I didn't cause I got titanfall2 instead and have been playing that.

>>379276758
>let me make a bullshit hyperbolic story in order to make a point about how much I hate the game
...why?

>>379277049
There is zero hyperbole in that post, those events occurred as I described them.
I may not have spend the whole match on the phone, but I indeed spent some time playing with one hand, and this didn't cause my team to lose, or my "score" to drop.
The game is THAT reliant on skill.

>>379276690
>This isn't what I was exactly talking about. I was obviously mentioning people who always ask for a more immersive MMO world and less theme park carrot on a stick stuff.
NGE launched in 2005.

>>379277238
>and this didn't cause my team to lose, or my "score" to drop
And your hyperbole doesn't account for this happening because...maybe you had good team members and the others had shit team members? What kind of match it was? Team comp? Basically a bunch of things that can be taken into account.

I don't play the game or am a big fan of it, but holy shit it's obvious you're lying or trying to reach as hard as possible to try to shit on it.

Will there ever be a good MMO that isnt pure grind micro transaction filled content-less piece of crap

Like i get that endgame is hard to do but some 1 has to eventually find the golden way to make endgame that not just grinding 200m xp or 99 everything

>>379277458
What the fuck are you saying? It was the beta period, I played for 2-3 hours a day for 2 days, always solo, and my performance didn't affect the outcome much.

>>379277458
The game is renown for homing skills.

>>379277542
Levels are unnecessary. A sandbox can have everything unlocked and just require in-game funds to purchase after being crafted.

>>379277325
A full year into Vanilla WoW's release. Vanilla at that time was the most theme park MMO on the market. People were bitching about the lack of immersion and theme parkness of the game even back then. None of them went to SWG. Or maybe the couple that legit cared did, but obviously not enough with the worsening sub count of SWG that made NGE a thing.

>>379264640
>We know that the people who left Blizzard to make Wildstar used to work on Project Titan.

No we don't You are an idiot.

Wildstar was a shit game with shit artstyle and shit storytelling and had shit gameplay. I can't believe people are using this as an example of the market not wanting another vanilla WoW type game. It was nowhere near the same level as vanilla

>>379251869
>Brtual conquest MMO

But it is coming. See Camelot Unchained aka Marc Jacobs unchained. Looks like it will be the best of both DAoC and WAR combined.

>>379277860
>crowdfunded mmos
doomed to fail

>>379277726
I hadn't even heard of SWG when WoW came out.

It's little to no proof that the industry (now) could use a sandbox.

>>379277860
Even Kripparian said it looks like shit, and he sold his life for Dark Age of Camelot lewts.

>>379277580
And none of what you're saying makes a difference? Going solo in a team game doesn't mean your chances of having good team comp is gone, nor having good team members. The way I see others talk, this is a team game not Quake 3.
>>379277628
Cool, but as far as I understand it's one guy that can only use it occasionally, no? Not to mention this has nothing to do with that guy's hyperbole. If you didn't lie, you also wouldn't be trying to defend yourself so much :)

>>379278239
>If you didn't lie, you also wouldn't be trying to defend yourself so much :)
This was meant for >>379277580 not >>379277628

>>379278239
>If you didn't lie, you also wouldn't be trying to defend yourself so much :)

Oh wow, it is the famous "attack a guy - if he doesn't defend he is wrong, if he defends he is wrong" strategy.
I think I will close the tab now, have fun screeching at my shadow.

>>379251869
Question. Was this the game where devs were shilling with lines like "Fuck levels, this is true skill based combat" and then when it released whoops there's the levels anyway and the devs were like "well obviously by skill based we meant skill LEVELS duh"? Or am I thinking of some other completely tanked "hardcore" MMO?

>>379277949
I was 10 when SWG came out, 11 when Vanilla came out. Not sure about you, but I had definitely heard of SWG at that time. Before WoW stepped up standard, it's numbers were damn good for an MMO (300k peak subs.) If you want more modern takes, LOTRO, Albion, Black Desert oh how can I forget Wurm Online too.

>>379267194

Wait what is this?

>>379279380
Final Fantasy XIV, patch 2.0 cinematic.

>>379251869
>"we want an old school mentally in a modern video game!"
>here it is, my man
>it spawns a monstrously successful series and spin off

Is Japan the only video game kino?

>>379279626
What series?

>>379279626
>>379279703
Probably the Souls games, although there's nothing "old school" about them because they don't make any of the systems at all tedious like they used to be.

>>379279703
Probably Souls.

>>379278835
>LOTRO
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?535516-Everything-bad-in-LOTRO-has-the-same-source-The-Themepark-Formula-My-Feedback&s=f0fd500d1d9465f10abef4e9d76a4ed9

Albion is a Runescape remake, isn't it? Plenty would still play RS.. not to mention it isn't even out yet and costs a founders fee, on top of being a free game at launch.

Black Desert is a Korean game with plenty of issues, as outlined on /v/ (grinding simulator with RNG upgrades).

>>379279921
>posts a forum post that has no real points backing it outside quests
It's worth playing the game rather than find some old ass forum post. The game's not SWG sandbox levels, but it's by far more sandboxy than most MMOs today.

Albion will be fully out next month. You think it'll do well? Has it been getting a ton of love?
>RS remake
What? Also might as well mention RS since it is a bit sandboxy as well, yet doesn't go above 100k active these days (OSRS+RS3 players)

>grinding simulator
The fuck did you think people did in sandboxes? Grind stuff for your occupation then sell it.

>RNG
The game has hidden stats; in a way it caters to people that miss things like this, too (ex. the guys that miss threat math that was only in vanilla/tbc wow that became useless in Wrath due to threat modifier.)

>>379251869
>tfw youre usually one of the players that want the vocal minority
>tfw casual shitters always get butthurt and want to simply dismiss it as 'oh nobody wants this therefore it shouldnt exist.'
>despite the fact that most of these games are flawed messes that have more problems than positive traits to keep their playerbase.
I fucking hate it when people do this, especially ecelebs who know nothing of the games respective genre and are just looking to dismiss the hardcore crowd because they dont want to feel bad for having low commitment.

Case and point will be quake chanpions which will have every asshat youtuber going 'hurrdurr arena shooters nobody wants them, stoopid poser vocal minority.' Despite the fact that the game offers little community building tools, has charscters who are objectively the best behind paywalls, and net code which delays inputs and projectiles. I say this as someone who even likes the game but retards will pretend like it has to do with audience numbers not that the game is a shoddy mess to begin with.

Everyone loved archage beta but no one wanted it to be a giant p2win slog. Nobody wanted toxxik to be a boring ut3 clone with shoddy weapon switching. Nobody wanted wildstar to be a buggy mess with optimization issues either.

>>379278074
>e-celeb worship

end yourself retard

>>379280986
>wants old style shitty tedious game with not a lot going on
>nobody else wants old style shitty tedious game with not a lot going on
>calls them casuals because they want to waste their time doing tedious shit and looking at shitty graphics
Yeah...might wanna get that head out of your ass there buddy. Also nobody has had positive things to say about Champions to that extent. So not only are you delusional with the "waste more time means being more hardcore" fallacy, but you make shit up about how people feel about a crappy looking game to justify your delusion.

>>379280986
>>despite the fact that most of these games are flawed messes that have more problems than positive traits to keep their playerbase.
>more problems than positive traits to keep their playerbase
>implying it's not the playerbase itself imploding the fuck out of the game
see >>379254031
of course there's always this "flaw" if you look hard enough.

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>>379251869
>something something MMO is dead
>x failed, because I don't play it
>x failed, because there aren't millions of causals playing it!
>x failed, because I still like WoW!
>hey guys, here's a recipe for the perfect MMO...
>WoW this, WoW that
>acts like only AAA MMOs exists
What went wrong with MMO threads?

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>>379274063
>Wildstar was near identical to Vanilla/TBC mechanically

>>379283473
servers being shut down looks quite dead to me, tho

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>>379283473
>WoWfags ruined MMO genre
>now bored of WoW
>want someone else to just make WoW

>>379255037
>western character design
>except for the animey eyes
>mr skeleton arms without any muscles
>2m long rifle with more weight than the person holding it
>breasts that look like they coming out of the sides, and not the front
just want to point out how horrible the art looks. a mix from a dozen different mediocre styles to get one giant pile of shit.

>>379251869
For all the complaining people do, whenever game cater to their demands they don't buy it.

>>379282694
>>379283164
>nobody has positive things to say about QC because I say so.
Im sure theres no positive feedback at all and rocket jump ninja doesnt exist as a channel. You're really only proving my point, people look for simplw reasons to dismiss old mechanics because theyre tored of hearing about it. Nobody wants old experiences with a giant asterisk next to it saying 'oh yeah but now you have to deal with x or pay real money for y'.

Theres a reason daoc and l2 stayed strong while others did not, theres a reason why utb and ql stayed strong and others did not. But people dont want to look at the mechanical reasons, they just want a quick way to dismiss the crowds that want it because some loud asshole wants hardcore creds and ends up not sticking to his guns. Please explain to me how archeage and black desert going downhill had to do with the audience not being there and nothing to do woth the blantant money grubbing systems that put real money over player commitment.

>>379251869
Because it's ugly, unintuitive and has problems in core aspects like movement, UI and animations.

>>379283473
Not being able to sustain their games at all whatsoever without drastically changing their models and how they release content is pretty dead though. You guys fail at supporting what you purportedly wanted.
>>379283529
It is though. Sure it simplifies some of the stuff like player customization (because such games are so centered on min-maxing that having a larger talent tree or w/e isn't worth it), but how raids go (getting into them, prep, mechanics) is just like vanilla/tbc. So is leveling. Etc.

>>379284454
>DAOC stayed strong
Stopped reading right there. DAOC is the definition of a game that has exactly what this "hardcore" vocal minority wanted in terms of its pvp system yet none of these people decided to play it.

Reducing grinding isn't less casual, hell it's the opposite of money grubbing so I am not even sure how you can make that claim.

>>379256987
>karma works because it bars you from entering cities, meaning you have to completely rely on other players, taking refuge in a clan keep or your house, or the lawless city, which is full of pkers just like you.

Genius idea for a game.

I hope bethesda new space RPG delivers this. They are apparently taking cues from a lot of different games.

>>379284906
>daoc wasnt a fondly remembered pvp game that set the standard for rvr.
>offers no counter points or answers the question presented to them
As I said, proving my point. Not only that but now I know you dont have a clue of what youre talking about.

>>379285478
Is this why the game was hemorrhaging players so much they added a bunch of changes nobody liked?

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>>379267705
>>379267535

>NCSOFT Still wont release the source code or sell the IP for City of Heroes
>Instead they shove Statesman into some shitty moba game so they can keep sitting on the IP

I fucking hate koreans

>>379254149
Didn't follow the whole conversation, but dealing with open pvp is pretty easy. You can easily restrict it without removing everything or creating arenas or whatever. Simply implement penalties for killing too much. Even a kill quota does the job. Tibia did that: you can kill whoever you want, but there'll be a penalty if you kill too much, and it worked for ages.

>>379286673
That's nothing to do with being Korean and everything to do with being a slimy corporate suit. Just imagine what the shareholders would say if you sold off an IP after cancelling the product using it, and your competitor turned it into a huge success. If you were a disconnected pencil pusher in it for the money, wouldn't you just sit on the IP to cover your own ass?

Every major Publisher is the same. That's why so many good series are dead.

>>379287146
Somebody talked about Firefly?

>>379287146

There was a guy trying to at least get licensing agreements so they could set up a private server with everyones old character data. And the NCSOFT Execs made him wait for 6 months for an answer only to say. "Sorry we don't think you will be able to deliver the quality service CoH fans deserve."

AND THEN SHOVED STATESMAN INTO A MOBA AND PRETENDED EVERYTHING WAS OK.

FUCK KOREAN COMPANIES

>>379283473
Easier to pretend a game is good via numbers than mechanics. If you even mention a non triple a mmo people will just say its dead and go back to whatever they are playing.

>>379287625
Honey, I know it hurts, but this is corporate behavior 1o1.
The Fantastic 4 and Spiderman franchise are suffering for the same reasons.

>>379252458
How is this a failure? Surely selling 1 million copies is enough to make some money.

>>379267194
cute cat girls

>we want a good /v/ thread
>ok, here it is
>it fails

(could not find picture of good /v/ thread)

>>379287878
>70m budget+advertising
>1m sales

Yeah nah. The amount of wasted money put into games like that kills profit margins.

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The only way to have a good MMO is to have some benevolent billionaire throw money at it and have the game be nonprofit

>>379268274
>>379268579
I'd say go play BDO

>>379286272
Let me spell this out for you in laymans terms since reading comprehension is beyond you. These are reasons your mmo will fail not because the audience isnt there:
>adding armor that gives better stats behind a massive real money paywall after they already bought your game.(bd)
>changing everything entirely and thus dismishing all the commitment your players just put in your sandbox (swg)
>locking all the things that would make your game not a wow clone behind a real money paywall(archeage).
>making upgrades to armor rng based and then locked behind real money paywalls
>making an unoptimized game that'll shit out when people want to do dungeons
>making customization locked behind a paywall
>silencing your cokmunity and banning them when they call out this bullshit
>having open world pvp with no downsides or karma systems to make a checks and balances to stop every hogh level from just ganking people al la lineage 2.
>adding player housing but once again restricting it behind a paywall
>allowing people to pay to diminish the commitment other players put into your game and thus favoring real money over player input.
>putting in artificial bars that will stop players from progressing too far so they'll just get bored of your game faster. IE:stamina
These are mechanical systems that turn people away from your game. Not because the audience doesnt exist but becaude youre shitting on them for wanting to just play content theyve played previously.

>>379252049
SJW pandering.

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>PvP MMO

I'm still waiting on RFO 2.

>>379288668
No. BDO is trash. It over complicates everything.

>>379288756
And these all happened why? Because not enough people played these games to make them long run sustainable. Again, nobody wants to play your shitty take on an idealized version of a genre no matter how vocal you internet minority get about it.

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>"we want a badass mmo shooter!!!!!!!!"
>okay badass, here it is
>it fails

WTF

>>379252049
Wasteland 2 is fucking dreadful, just like everything else Brian Fargo is responsible for.

>>379287878
Budget of over 70 million dollars? 5 years in development?

Even after factoring in digital sales (which ar en't included in that figure), the game was a huge flop.

>>379252592
Montreal was chosen by EA because of incentives for developers, not because of the qualifications of the team involved. EA clearly believed that it would sell anyway based on the brand; if EA (reasonably) thought it would be crummy, it at least hoped the game would make a small profit. The loud and humorous Internet backlash was probably a surprise to EA.

>>379289106
wat.

>>379290440
I think he's talking about how the perceived RNG isn't an actual RNG but based on a hidden stat system that not everyone understands.

>>379289218
>I dont follow these games but trust me nobody wanted to play them.
Eh no, most of these were because of publishers nickle and diming their consumers. In fact a lot of the korean versions of games didnt have these things. In archeages case it was all trion. In swgs case it was all because george fucking lucas wanted jedi in the game before christmas fo episode 1 sales.

As Ive said multiple times before, you dont know jack about the genre and just want to easily dismiss crowds. Aka youre a retard who doesnt know what hes talking about.

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>>379252458

>garbage where most of the money is spent on marketing
>garbage mobile app " interactivity " cancer
>garbage animations
>garbage gameplay
>garbage characters

Why does Bioware still exist? They haven't made anything truly great since the first Mass Effect.

>>379253321
Don't forgot the awful super deformed toon aesthetic which turned off alot of people.

>>379288996
Did you reply to the wrong post?

>>379253373
>>We want an open world MMO with deep crafting, combat, PvP and housing!
Runescape.

>>379251869
Why do people want PVP in MMOs anyway? Just play an fps or fighting game if you want something competitive.

>>379274063
You're right at the edge of realizing something but haven't quite hit it yet.

It's not that games like Aion, B&S, Darkfall, etc are necessarily bad or failures, it's that they thought that the MMO market WoW tapped into is the same MMO market before its release. They budget a game that they expected to reach WoW player base numbers and got nowhere near it.

Why? Because WoW players aren't MMO players. MMO players were playing EQ, SWG, XI, DaoC, AC, UO, etc.

These games were very popular, but they weren't "WoW popular." EQ, the most popular MMO before WoW's release, peaked at 500k players. Most retards you would talk to on /v/ would tell you 500k is a failed MMO.

There's still a market for these old UO or EQ style MMOs, but developers/publishers can't go in expecting to reach these impossible subscriber counts.

We've yet to see it, but one of these upcoming crowdsourced MMOs will eventually succeed, because they realize this. (Pantheon, Camelot Unchained, Ashes of Creation, etc)

>>379252553

The aesthetic was pushed too far and the world design was overly mechanical, rushing the player through obscure and trivial trials.
It never felt like an actual place, any of it, just a much more difficult themepark to get through for the sake of arriving at raids eventually. Nobody sticks around unless it's a comfy game to log in and hang out. Wildstar has nothing for that.

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>>379251869
>"we want a focused PvP MMO game!"
>ok, here's it
>EA rush to release the game unfinished
>"well... fuck..."

>>379291530
This is how I feel about it. Playing a PVP MMO just gives the person who wastes more time grinding an advantage. It's like if your rifle in counterstrike did more damage as you played more matches, and it's fucking stupid.

>>379268274
>we'll never get EVE online but with good flight / combat like E:D.
seriously, both of these games are like the yin to the other's yang.

>>379291862
>This is how I feel about it. Playing a FPS onlinejust gives the person who wastes more time grinding an advantage. It's like if your aiming in counterstrike was better so you did more damage as you played more matches, and it's fucking stupid.

>>379291862
Thats only because its physically impossible for a level 10 to fight a level 30 in MMOs for some reason

If a level 30 had the same health and damage as a level 10, no one would actually mind

>>379291862
Son, you have a condition, you must see a doctor.

>>379292024
>>379292137
>>379292142

Ok think whatever you want. But that's why PvP doesn't work in MMOs, and always sucks. You can't have game balance or a level playing field to have enjoyable matches when the entire point of an MMO is to grind to get better gear/stats.

Competitive gameplay and grinding for advantages are just antithetical. People want to compete on an even playing field so that the more skilled player wins. Otherwise you die to someone with better loot and you just think the game is fucking stupid and not worth grinding out.

>>379290703
>"i-it's not random"
>"we just don't know how it works"

>we know it's not random
>we understand how it works

do you see the dilemma?

>>379290937
I have followed these games don't assume you fucktard. Archeage was never built on any legitimate sustainable business model for the size of the game so it had to do what it did. SWG was losing subscribers especially when WoW came out.

You're that guy who's mad that nobody wants to play your garbage ideal for a game. In fact, I am pretty sure I started this convo with you shitting on "casual" gamers for not wanting what YOU want.

Get your head out of your ass, and notice that others aren't into stuff you are, and that in order for big games like MMOs to thrive they need decent returns on investment.

>>379278239
>:)
>>379279161
>:3

Leave.

>>379292393
>But that's why PvP doesn't work in MMOs, and always sucks
Look man, just because your first MMO was WoW doesn't mean every MMO has shit PvP.

>>379292393
A level one in better gear than a level 30 should be possible.

The main problem is levels inflating health/damage/gear (level restrictions on gear). Levels should just give new skills and thats it

>>379291591
If so much money is being spent on developing these MMOs, then really high sub count has to be expected. Especially since so many of these games are trying their best not to follow a traditional subscription model, leading to game mechanics disrupting payment models. I think the best option would be to start really small, then slowly expand akin to POE. But that's much easier said than done especially in a genre like the MMO and it also doesn't result in the highest profit margin during the early years.

>>379258824
spot on. this what make a MMO, a MMO.

>>379292627
Even the ones with the best PvP have this problem as well. DAOC? Darkfall? Planetside 2? MMORPG and RPGs as well, and RPGs aren't conducive to skill. This is why Dark Souls PvP could never be serious or competitive either and just serves as a small compliment to the main game since gear/stats matter more than skill.

>>379292661
Then why even have leveling at that point? It's just timegating player to certain abilities.

>>379292983
These developers are assuming WoW numbers are even attainable. They aren't. WoW was a miracle of luck and good timing, it was lightning in a bottle. No other MMO is ever going to do that again, simply because WoW's success was a one-off stroke of luck.
Developers need to get the idea that 8 digit sub numbers are even possible out of their heads. 300-500k is about the best you can hope for. They need to develop with that in mind.

I mean shit, even WoW has dropped to around 2m now, and it's still falling. MMO's went through a bubble, just like the internet itself with the Dotcom bubble.

>>379293326
You seem stuck on this imaginary issue that every single battle in PvP is somehow uneven.

They're not. You just saying it doesn't make it true.

>>379293381
>300-500k is about the best you can hope for.
I'd be very surprised if any of the upcoming games you mentioned can even break 50k

>>379293326
Leveling isnt timegating, thats not even remotely close to what timegating means (you can only get 1 level a day).

>>379254528
Didn't that game get completely reworked?

>>379255617
It's not an abusable system, since the "victim" being killed for revenge/bounty points is the one that had to both challenge a weaker player to a duel, and then kill him when he declines.

>>379293441
He isn't saying no battle in PVP are even just that its an inherently broken and bad system for competitive play since players more often than not will have differing gear and levels which give one a clear advantage over the other.

>>379293441
It is though. MMOs have historically never had balanced PvP. Minstrels and Skalds in DAOC. Mages and Rogues in WoW. That one Bounty Hunter variation in TOR that could shoot that pinpoint laser thing.

Whether it's a level thing, a gear thing, or just shitty MMO balance, there's always something or another that leads to unfair advantages.

>>379293642
Maybe wrong use of term, but I am sure you get my point either way. It's pointless gating at that point.

>tfw nobody copies Monster Hunter and how it does roleless PvE with an entirely gear based progression meaning zero leveling involved
feels bad

>>379294142
I like that you brought up CS.

Let's talk about CS.

Terrorists have AK's which are 1-shot headshots. CTs have M4s which are 2-shot headshots.

How is this balanced?

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>>379252458
>That Japan

>ctrl + f
>shadowbane

I'm not sure whether or not I should be surprised.

>>379294375
CS is very well designed around balance because CT's always have stage advantage so T weapons are cheaper and often like the AK do a bit more damage than the CT counterpart. It's their way of differentiating the two without making either side too powerful.

Hell this is a dumb as shit argument. Do you complain about Akuma doing more damage than most Street Fighters even though he also has lower health?

>>379295090
>because CT's always have stage advantage
No they don't.

Guess you don't quite know what you're talking about. Maybe that's the case with MMOs as well.

>>379255037

What killed it for me and my friend was at launch the class balance was horrible, I was playing Engineer and had no issues, but my friend was Esper, which he liked, but the class was a clusterfuck of issues. Hey let's make a class that in order to even come close to the other damage dealers has to stand still to do attacks in a game where there's AoE telegraphs everywhere! It was fun for the first month, I did enjoy the combat a little more than most MMO's, but with issues like class balance and dungeon rewards that required you to do it flawlessly or else your entire team will ragequit we ended up quitting after the first month it was released, the housing was neat though. Also I still find it incredibly fishy that my account got hacked near the end of my playing, even though I had no viruses and had never had an issue like that in an MMO.

>>379295285
>No they don't
Yes they do. CTs don't have to defend as many spots. CTs have an easier time holding angles.

As a result every shot matters for the Ts. Even then the AK doesn't have the recoil control and accuracy of an M4. It's not a definite advantage.

>>379268583
>bunnyhopping
>skill
fag pls , that shit was unintenional and by the time the lazy ass devs decided to do something about it and fix it the majority of the dwindling playerbase didn't want to get rid of it because they were cheating scrubs that hanged on to every shred of of an advantage they could

>>379295748
LOL stop talking out of your fucking ass you stupid fuck.

There are maps T have a huge advantage on over CT.

>>379295904
Not in the case of defense nor angling. Play the game you retard. But before your ADHD/other mental retardation takes us off topic, point being that CS is well balanced around a variety of things ranging from overall stage formation to other qualities of a weapon. MMOs don't have such thought put into their balance, and never can/will.