Why does /v/ not like rogue-likes? Is it visually unappealing?

autism

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>>378998416
I dont understand please explain

I have ~200hrs in DCSS and ~80hrs in DDA, I'm also trying to play Nethack during commute to work but the android version is glichty as fuck.
Am I allowed to join the cool kids now?

Specifically talking about DCSS, the moment to moment gameplay doesn't seem too engaging in comparison to other genres.

>>378998357
Orcish weapons? That's some old shit, bro.

they're fun, if they had 3D graphics they would be better

>>378998846
How so? Otabbing lets you parse easily through the routinely grind, so the game is composed of moment to moment risk-reward weighing where you slay monsters capable of oneshotting you. It's like Dark Souls on one life.

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>>378998740
Why do you like roguelikes

>>378998846
I can see that, what kind of genres do you usually play?

>>378998357
I am extremely fond of tightly designed and logically consistent levels. I don't really care how good the core mechanics are if they don't have at least some level of synchronicity with other design aspects.

>>378999517
What are some of your favorite games?

dredmor is pretty good

>>378999191
If the combat is boring enough that you have to otab through it, it's not really a positive for the game (even though roguelikes are primarily about risk and resource management)

>>378999370
All sorts
Mostly strategy and FPS games recently

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>>378999843
>Strategy
hell yeah

>>378999596
Immersive sims mostly. I am particularly fond of Deus Ex and Thief 2, though not to the extent of your typical LGS fanboy. I also like the Hitman series, Souls games, and the opening act of Mirror's Edge.

>>379000108
I've been playing Master of Magic
It's pretty good

>>378998357
Roguelikes saved me when a hurricane knocked out my power last year. Since they use so little computing power, I was able to stretch my laptop's battery by just playing Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup while waiting for the power to come back. Would've gone stir crazy otherwise.

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I used to play a lot of rogue likes please recommend me some.

Are there any roguelikes you can play with a fucking mouse? I've been trying to get into elona, but I would love it if I could just click on shit.

>>378999517
Roguelikes often have premade levels and bioms when it comes to certain levels, and randomization helps to extend the replayability, it also lets the devs do a lot of interesting things, like the placement of traps, roaming minibosses, and destrucible environments. For example, in DCSS there's a monster that moves towards you by the shortest path, even by consuming the walls. There's also a labyrinth level (with obligatory minotaur in the end) that couldn't be done with a set level design. There's also Abyss, boundless level full of rape demons

>>379000480
Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup, TOME, and I believe ADOM.

>he hasn't won at least once in pozcumbutt

Can someone explain to me the difference between a roguelike and a MUD?

>>379000480
Dungeon of Dredmor probably the most mouse friendly rogue-like I've ever played but it costs money

>>378998357

Are ASCII graphics one of the defining features of the genre? If so, then yes, it's visually unappealing.

I like the idea if them the only ones i played is

>That drug dealing java phone game
>Ftl
Thats it
What next?

>>379000668
MUD - D&D for loners
Roguelike - a game similar to Rogue

>>379000560
I'll give that one a try then. Thanks.

>>379000786
It can be but doesn't have to, some hardcore rogue-like fans go by the ASCII preference but I like tiles more.

There are some pretty shitty tiles though cant lie

>>378998357
>Is it visually unappealing?
Yes.
>I want your honest opinion
I don't like permadeath. I don't think it's a bad concept. I'm just not personally interested in it.

>>378998357

I do enjoy console roguelikes, but those typically have more generous mechanics like non-permanent character death. Some games just make you lose all your equipment upon dying.

>Is it visually unappealing?

I don't like the slew of indie roguelikes because they're usually unpolished and have shitty writing. Whether or not they use ASCII graphics is not an issue for me. I just don't want to play something written and designed by someone with no actual writing skills or experience within the gaming industry.

Spelunky is the best Roguelike.

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>>379000952

>>379000952
HAHA! right on my dude :).
If you got the time, check out Binding of Issac and Rogue legacy as well, their pretty sickdark my brosef.

Hm? But I like roguelikes.
I hate how a ton of devs slap some rogue elemnts on their shitty game and call it a roguelike though.

>>379000802
>MUD - D&D for loners
>Multi-user
>loners
Wut?

>>379000786
Tilesets do exist for the more popular roguelikes, so it's not strictly necessary. It just reduces a limitation of being able to produce enough art for whatever things you want to put in, which is a big thing for games that have smallk development teams

>>379000786
Not really, it's just a side effect of the fact that most roguelikes are developed by one person. Most popular RLs have numerous tilesets or full blown graphical engines, like Elona and ToME4

>>379000952
I would say Spelunky is the Dark Souls of Roguelikes.

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>>379001026
have you ever been whip cracked for lack of listening? lack of doing what your told? Cause I'm not far from whipping you

>>379000952
This.

Another fantastic roguelike is FTL.

>>379000952
Enter the Gungeon is a better roguelike

I prefer action roguelites, as I don't find the combat in roguelikes nearly exciting enough. It's a shame they are usually shallower

>>379001856
Enter the Gungeon has some key flaws that prevent it being great. Spelunky is a fast paced high risk high octane rusecruise to hell and back.

A lot of these games have so many race and class combinations. Considering you die so often, how can you possibly master the game?

>>379001765
>>379001856

It's funny because nerds like to argue semantics.

>>379002495

Because toolkit is generally less important than risk assessment, and lots of risk management is toolkit independent.

>>379002495
>Considering you die so often, how can you possibly master the game?
You die less later on.
Also, all the good roguelikes are open source, so you can just read up and do the math on raw numbers like a proper autist and not a casul who wants to "just chill".

>>379002495
Despite the myriad combinations, Roguelikes are essentially incredibly formulaic once you get some experience with them.

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>>379002854
>mfw DCSS bot is better than a great deal of players

>>378998357
>Why does /v/ not like rogue-likes?
Because the actual gameplay is almost entirely limited to "when do I use my consumables" rather than anything actually fun or interesting.
Also why "rogue-lites" are so popular in comparison.

>>378998357
No mouse support.
Shitty graphics, either ASCII, pixel shit or shit design.
Bad inventory management.
Crash easily, losing progress or mostly corrupting your save.
Minor things like idiotic balance (aka competitive multiplayer mindset), MUST HAVE builds, stupid exploits...
Made by a greedy hack.

>spriggan^fedhas
no food ever

Why is cataclysm so fucking difficult at the start.

>>379004034
Because there are two kinds of people developing it and the ones who can't - and often don't want - into balance are the ones in power.
Also complexity, but to a lesser degree.

t. one of the devs

>>378998357

I like roguelikes a lot.

why do faggots who always start these threads use dungeon crawl stone soup? it's the biggest fuckign meme and the most fucking CASUAL roguelike?

i met by best friend a decade ago playing MAngband, so fuck you.

>>379003037
Roguelikes are a specific genre, roguelites can technically be any genre as long as they feature "roguelike" elements

>>379004034
Because, by its nature, it's going to get easier the more stuff you accumulate and skills you learn, so if the beginning wasn't difficult the rest of the game wouldn't be either. Being a sandbox without strictly defined goals doesn't really help it in this regard, I see quite a few complaints directed at the lack of lategame goals CDDA has once you get a decent setup running (although, these complaints are also from the people who play DCSS nonstop) . Maybe you run into a mininuke manhack and die instantly, but that's not so interesting.

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>>378998357
I love them. My top 3 favorites, in order, are Elona +, Poschengband, and Brogue

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>>379004582
excellent taste

>>379001765
>>379001856
>>379001189
>>379000952


these arent roguelikes.

roguelites, maybe.

basically, though, it's like...an action game with roguelike attributes.

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>>378998357
But anon, I love DCSS

>>379005519
it's crazy people don't understand the differences. The requirements for a roguelike are simple, if it doesn't meet those requirements, it's not a roguelike. It's like calling a rectangle a square, when it's clearly not.

I like IVAN

>>379005640
FFFFFFUCK the Berlin interpretation.

Now I'm not gonna go around calling fucking Nuclear Throne or Binding of Isaac a roguelike.

But Spelunky is ten times the roguelike Elona ever was. I die all the time in Elona and it don't mean shit.

>>379005619
Great, now do it with anything but babbys first class combo

>>379005982
>not turning on permadeath
get out, casual

>>379001856
Everspace is the bestest roguelike.

>>379005876
Fuck that game, it always boiled down to some fucking asshole stepping on a mine even if you had a levitation belt.

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>>379005519
Nice try faggot

>>379006050
Different guy, but I also 15 runed a NaFi of Chei (getting tormented 8 times when stepping around a corner in Hell is a special kind of fun) and 3 runed a HuFi of Zen (reciting is fun, to bad it's not good enough for extended) and 3 runed an OgCk (because being a glass cannon isn't FUN enough).
Am I okay yet?

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>tfw no other game lets you throw panties at people until they kill themselves
elona is best game
>>379006943
>people mis-name things therefore the original community is wrong
see >>379005640

>>379006943
Nah man roguelikes are just every game now no question. Final fantasy? Its a roguelike of course

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>>379006943

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>>379006943
STEAM TAGS WERE A MISTAKE
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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I was playing Poschengband and Elona some hours ago

>>379005876
I wish Ivan had bigger tiles

>>379004034
Start as a police officer instead of a survivor.

There is also special agent or something with similar name, it's literally easy-modo as he starts with kukri and decent sub-machinegun

>>379006676
IVAN is basically
>memorize the ways you die
>don't do those things
and then a bunch of grind on top.
It's fun, but gets stale quickly. I won it like twice and don't feel like playing again.

I would love to start playing rougelikes, but I don't know which game to start with.
What would you guys recommend?

>People who autistically obsess over the qualifications of a roguelike

nigga, if the majority of the game is randomly generated it qualifies as a rogue like by today's standards. Just deal with it.

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>>378998357
They're inelegant/bloated. Almost a given because of the extremely low investment required to add content.

The levels suck. Hand-made environments always beat procedurally generated ones. MUH REPLAYABILITY is a post-hoc excuse. The real reason for proc gen is it takes way less effort than making decent level design tools + a shitton of levels within them.

There's a big disconnect between the fast 'n loose structure of throwaway runs, and the extreme pedantry of playing each run. One or the other would be okay. I suppose this is why rogue-lites became popular (not that I'm a fan of those, either; I hate everything).

The graphics are poor. While there's some convention within the roguelike genre, compared to other games, they're far too abstract. In addition, with the absence of animation, there is zero conveyance of CHANGE in anything. Naturally, ASCII glyphs are "easy" for developers; they've already been made.

Controlling a single character turn-by-turn is just tedious. The turn basis is just a vestige of old pen and paper RPGs, plus computers almost as old. There's simply no compelling reason for it EXCEPT, of course, the ease of implementation.

Note the recurring theme. Roguelikes' defining qualities all stem from what's easy for the developer, not what's best for the player. This isn't to rag on roguelike devs, most of whom are amateurs with real jobs and lives who want to hit the ground running. Good for them. But when people rave about the roguelike as some cutting-edge genre, it's laughable. Yes, the rich interaction and deep gameplay is cool- but it's only there because close-to-0 developer effort was expended in literally any other area!

They're great, I play them all the time, IVAN, Sil, ADOM, ANGBAND, and tons of smaller ones. I rarely post in this board however so that says something.

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>>379009237
I want to suck this b8's big throbbing cock.

>>379009141
https://pastebin.com/yfUKx35f
Take your pick.

i can never get into them because they have a 1000 buttons that you need to learn just to get your character to move and attack something.

>>379009141
DCSS,it has tiles and is not too complex.Expect to die a lot of times before winning your first game though,i won my first game with a Centaur Hunter after 150 deaths.

>>379009787
Most roguelikes use the same buttons

>>378998357
DF adventure mode was the only one I ended up liking. Just because of autistic throwing and wrestling mechanics.

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>Why does /v/ not like rogue-likes?

But I love them

>>379004034
You'll wish you could go back to that difficulty once you figure it out.

Cataclysm is by far the easiest roguelike to break once you know what you're doing, having all stats at 6 with full negative perks with really bad day start still won't be enough to stop you eventually

>>379009141
Depends on what you are looking for.

Dwarf Fortress is one of the finest games in the genre, I think it's good for a start. It has both Fortress Mode in which you build and manage the eponymous fort, and adventure mode that allows you to visit forts you built as a part of your journey.

Cataclysm DDA is awesome too, but in constant development with NIGHTLY releases. It's highly customizable and moddable too so you can adjust a lot of game's aspects to your personal liking.

So why isn't Cataclysm DDA that popular?

It's a good game with great potential, why is almost no one talking about it?

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>>379006943
Spelunky and ignorant gaming journalists are to blame for this.

>>379009141
Don't listen to >>379010702. Both of those games are incredible, they're really more simulations than proper roguelikes

My recommendations

>dungeon crawl stone soup
The most popular roguelike. Easy to get into, decent amount of options, good replayability. The most 'video-gamey' if that makes sense, don't expect to enjoy this game if imagination and immersion matter to you.

>brogue
One of the simplest and easiest roguelikes to get into, but still very challenging and has one of the better end games as far as roguelikes go. Easier to get into than stone soup, but harder to beat

>nethack
Has the most depth and the most rich gameplay interactions of any roguelike I've seen. Far more love and care is put into this game than the others and this game is dramatically harder to beat than the others if you don't spoil yourself (expect to take years to beat this). The problem with nethack is that it's essentially 'sovled' because once you have the encyclopedic knowledge needed to beat this game, nothing will challenge you and eventually repeat runs will be tedious (the endgame especially)

>>379010834
Getting into it is like running into a brick wall. It also doesn't have the standard goal of other roguelikes (i.e. progress to the next floor) so you have to set your own goals and make your own fun.

A lot of the wikis and tutorials are massively out of date as well, simply due to the update frequency.

>>379010834
It gets easy fast once you figure it out, meaning it isn't all that good at keeping players.
Once you acquire gud, the discussions mostly turn to dev drama and new features.

And the head dev has got quite a bit of deserved hate for pulling off a few jackass moves.

>>378998357
Roguelikes are a stale genre that hasn't evolved. Any time someone tries anything other than a turn based tile movement RPG with a ton of random negative items, the autists crawl out of the woodwork and make up shit like "roguelite" as if the original fucking game and the few annoyingly shilled copies of it are in any way worth playing.

They're boring, braindead and easy as fuck. Only random chance throwing overwhelming encounters and/or crap items will have you lose in a run.

>>379009624
I probably should've checked /vg/ in the first place, thanks though
>>379010702
I already play Dwarf Fortress, and Cataclysm DDA seems like it has so much shit that it would be a god damn nightmare to learn, at least from what I read.
>>379009806
>>379011062
I think I'll start with brogue just because it's easier, though I'll remember Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. Thanks anons.

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>>379011649
You can try harder than that

>>379011649
I would love to see you play any major roguelike and die like a bitch a thousand times

>>378998357
I love them?

>>379000224
I'm playing Deus Ex right now, and I accidently Let Paul die during the hotel shootout. IDK why he did, since I cleared out the entire building so that wouldn't happen. Is it worth going back a hour or so, or does he barely appear later on in the game?

>>379011858
>Cataclysm DDA seems like it has so much shit that it would be a god damn nightmare to learn
Learning DDA is actually a lot of fun.
It's not like poschengband, where you can't do shit until you learn, but rather like Dwarf Fortress where the fun comes from new stuff that you learn.
If anything, it's better to learn DDA and then drop it.

The most fun with DDA I had was when I didn't know what do things do and drank raw toilet water because I didn't know you could boil it, wore random rags because I didn't have the crafting routine figured out yet and so on.

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This was the best I ever did, in any roguelike. I died about 10 turns later. I suck so bad. Probably 50% of my runs end on floor 2 or 3 because I get raped by eels.

>>378998357

I beat DCSS once, with a demonspawn warrior who got really good mutations. I was pretty proud over that. Haven't played it since, because I spent like 40 hours on that playthrough and that's too much for me.

>>379013213
>40 hours

What the hell,i got super slow on my first 5 rune win and it took me 10 hours

>>378998357
It's common knowledge that /v/ is full of casuals these days. It's evident every time there's a DF thread.

>>379012227

Hotel shootout is kinda buggy. Can't quite remember, but I think if Paul exits through the front, the game counts him as dead.

He makes a few extra appearances if you save him, but he's not necessary for any story. It feels great to still have him around, though.

>>379013419
People complaining about DF GUI don't need to be casuals, though.
I'm a DF veteran and I complain about DF GUI every time someone wrongly defends it or excuses Toady's laziness in important areas such as optimizing the fucking shitty code.