"Here you have a man who stopped at nothing to change the

He would be the most alpha if From would just make him unparryable. Way too fucking easy to cheese with parries.

Lorewise, i guess he's alpha though.

>>378883592
he was a pedo.

File: 683180.jpg (171KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

171KB, 1920x1080px

>>378883592
>sulyvahn's secret jutsu

File: 6830201c60ffe31cc6164a00707d35722a343d0f42e44c93a8d316eabe8d7031.png (356KB, 623x646px) Image search: [Google]

356KB, 623x646px

>>378883940
>victimless crime
Who cares honestly.

>>378883592
Man, he was a piece of shit. Probably the real de facto villain of the game

>>378883592
>twisting its Deacons to feed a god to a Lord of Cinder
Its not even remotely implied that Sully had a hand in Aldrich linking the fire.

Also Sully is a sociopath concerned only about his own power.

>>378884761

>Its not even remotely implied that Sully had a hand in Aldrich linking the fire.

Sure it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q573ugouCuw

>>378884551
>Probably the real de facto villain of the game
Sulyvahn and Aldrich are the only real villains in a series that otherwise lacks them.

File: C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved Images_Gwyn-Lord_of_Cinder.jpg (2MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1920x1080px

If these two fought who would win?

>>378884957
>linking VaatiVidya
Again, I ask you what specific item description implies that Sully forced Aldrich to link the fire.
Sully didn't have a hand in establishing the Church of the Deep, he merely took advantage of them for his own aims.

>>378883592
And what did he accomplish? He persuaded Prince Lothric to sit on his ass instead of linking the Fire, but that does nothing. Simply not linking the Fire isn't enough to end the Age of Fire.

His goal and our goal is similar - break the cycle. So why did we have to kill him?

>>378885247
>break the cycle
How is creating an unending Age of Darkness "breaking the cycle"? That is a defiance of the course of nature just as much as Gwyn linking the fire was.

As for Sully's goals, he basically wants the abyss to swallow up the entire world. Not even those hollow fuckers from Londor are that insane.

>>378885717
>How is creating an unending Age of Darkness "breaking the cycle"?
It's not. The Ages of Fire and Dark are both part of the cycle. If our goal is to break the cycle then we have to find something new. IE the Firekeeper ending.

>As for Sully's goals, he basically wants the abyss to swallow up the entire world.
What? What makes you think that?

>>378885221

>Sully didn't have a hand in establishing the Church of the Deep

But anon, no one has made any such claim

>he merely took advantage of them for his own aims.

Yes, exactly right. That's why I wrote "twisting its Deacons" in the OP.

>>378885184
Sulyvahn would unsheath his katana and literally teleport behind him.DS3 is anime, DS1 is Kino.

>>378886219
What does this have anything to do with Suly forcing, or having a hand in Aldrich linking the Flame?

>>378886156
>IE the Firekeeper ending.
While I would agree that this is the best ending, I don't think its breaking the cycle so much as rather letting it play out naturally.
>>378886156
>What? What makes you think that?
Sully wants to spread the Deep and the Deep is basically the Abyss (its a little more complicated than that, but whatever).>>378886219

>That's why I wrote "twisting its Deacons" in the OP.
The Deacons were clearly corrupted by the Deep, which they were keeping contained from the rest of the world. Item descriptions back this up.

>>378886265
>half finished game
>clunky controls compared to Souls games today
>kino
I'm half being facetious here, I also think DS1 is kino. But if you recognize what makes DS1 good then you would also realize that DS3 is objectively a better game from a design quality perspective. DS3 did everything DS1 did and usually did it better, AND did more.

>>378886437

It doesn't, I was just pointing out your strawman argument (or misinterpretation). The video I linked to will explain the rest

>>378886676

>The Deacons were clearly corrupted by the Deep, which they were keeping contained from the rest of the world

Yes, and other items and/or dialogue implies Sulyvahn purposely used the Deep to corrupt the Deacons.

>>378886714

>DS3 did everything DS1 did and usually did it better

Lol no. Where's the great interconnected world? Where's the sense of a coherent world at all? Only Dark Souls 1 nailed this, with Bloodborne coming the closest to mimicing it. And bonfire warping from the start in DaS3 basically killed any sense of exploration.

>>378886676
>Sully wants to spread the Deep and the Deep is basically the Abyss (its a little more complicated than that, but whatever)
It's way more complicated than that. They aren't the same thing. And I don't think Suly wants to spread the Deep, I think he's just manipulating the Deacons, and now THEY want to spread the Deep.

>While I would agree that this is the best ending, I don't think its breaking the cycle so much as rather letting it play out naturally
Natural implies that we didn't really have to do anything, that the Fire would fade and die on its own and end the cycle (meaning it wouldn't be a cycle in the first place). The Flame can't completely go out on it's own. There will always be embers ready to be rekindled.

>>378886748
>you
I'm not the original guy you were replying to.

>strawman argument
That's not what that is..

But now I'm reading further up the chain of replies and it doesn't even look like you ever said Suly made Aldrich link the Fire, so I'm confused. nvm then I guess

>>378883592
Who are you quoting, anon?

>>378887296

>But now I'm reading further up the chain of replies and it doesn't even look like you ever said Suly made Aldrich link the Fire, so I'm confused. nvm then I guess

Well that's not strictly true. This is what I wrote in the OP: "twisting its Deacons to feed a god to a Lord of Cinder and supplant the age of fire."
So I was implying just that, and it does seem reasonable after having seen the Vaati-vid I linked to.

But then again, Vaati didn't cite his source for any of his claims during that video, so he might just be pulling it out of his ass.

>>378886156
Firekeeper ending is not breaking the cycle, that's the cycle operating as intended. It's the same fires fade -> darkness -> new fire later cycle that defines the Souls universe. The only ending that """breaks""" the cycle is the Usurpation of Fire, but that ending is bullshit for other reasons.

>>378887296
>It's way more complicated than that. They aren't the same thing.
So what exactly is the Deep then? Because I thought that the Deep was basically the Abyss that became to stagnate and rot, which began to produce monstrous insects and bugs.
In other worlds, the Deep is not dissimilar to the Rot of the Painted World.

>The Flame can't completely go out on it's own. There will always be embers ready to be rekindled.

Except even in the Firekeeper ending, the flame isn't stated to die out completely either.

>The First Flame quickly fades.
>Darkness will shortly settle.
>But one day, tiny flames will dance across the darkness.
>Like embers, linked by lords past.
This seems to imply that a new First Flame will eventually emerge out of the dark, restarting the Age of Fire at its peak of existence rather than its current hollowed out state.

>>378886714
>map design
wow look like it fucked up the single most critical thing that consistently places DS1 above DS3 and allows it to rival even occasionally BB.

>>378887724

Loregod Vaati

>>378885184
Prime Gwynn would crush him like an ant

>>378888131
Why are we paying attention to Vaati's opinions, again?

>>378887946
>The only ending that """breaks""" the cycle is the Usurpation of Fire, but that ending is bullshit for other reasons.
Is it because Londor is basically North Korea ruled over by Darkwraiths?
Because ever item description regarding Londor implies that they pretty fucking horrible people.

>>378888131
>>378888306
This guy does it better than Vaati.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FZiAi9LDIs

>>378888306

Because he has no life and has the time and motivation to dig the deepest into the lore

>>378888072
No, the Deep is not the Abyss. The Deep is simply what happens when you get a massive gathering of Humanity all in one spot, but have it just sit there quietly and stagnate instead of exploding wildly everywhere (which would be the Abyss). In this sense, the Abyss is best thought of as a corruption of the Deep, in much the same way as Chaos fire is a corruption of normal fire. The Deep has begun to rot, since it's been stagnating at the roots of the world for way too long, but that does not make it the Abyss. They are different, and you have their relationship reversed.

>>378888530
Vaati "Laurence is the Cleric Beast" Vidya sucks balls at understanding souls lore, don't be an uneducated normie.

>>378888556
>abyss is automagically wild

Who decided this?
The only times we see it its pretty fucking calm outside kaathes fuckery.

>>378888556
You are absolutely correct and this is was along the lines of what I was thinking of actually.
Its just that "Abyss" is used to describe by the "natural state" of humanity and wild humanity both.

>>378888689

>Laurence is the Cleric Beast

Everyone thought that before the DLC landed. Vaati still does a good enough job for people who have social lives and want to enjoy the lore without having to spend hours upon hours digging through item descriptions

>>378887275
>Where's the great interconnected world?
What lol? DS3's world is completely interconnected. The only place in the game that you can't get to without a warp is Firelink. Everything else is completely interconnected and woven together.

There is also lore for why Firelink isn't connected to the rest of the world, and why Andre is there.

>Where's the sense of a coherent world at all?
DS3's world is more coherent than DS1's. If for no other reason than that the game is actually complete and the levels are actually finished.

>Only Dark Souls 1 nailed this, with Bloodborne coming the closest to mimicing it
Dark Souls 1 did not "nail" it. It did it very very well, but not as good as its successors (BB, DS3). Bloodborne and DS3 are better games than DS1. You have to look past the nostalgia.

>bonfire warping from the start in DaS3 basically killed any sense of exploration
How? Maybe you just have a weak sense of exploration. I never felt this except for in DS2 and that didn't have anything to do with the shitty bonfires.

>This is what I wrote in the OP: "twisting its Deacons to feed a god to a Lord of Cinder and supplant the age of fire."
Yes, Suly is the reason that Gwyndolin was fed to Aldrich, and Suly manipulated the Deacons. He did everything he did in an attempt to supplant (replace/displace) the Age of Fire. Essentially to break the cycle. Suly in no way had a hand in Aldrich linking the Flame, because that's exactly the opposite of what Suly wants.

>>378888072
>So what exactly is the Deep then?
>I thought that the Deep was basically the Abyss that became to stagnate and rot
It's not really the Abyss rotting, it's humanity rotting, kind of. Like I said it's a bit complicated, this is the best video on the Deep. I thought that the Deep was basically the Abyss that became to stagnate and rot

>Except even in the Firekeeper ending, the flame isn't stated to die out completely either
Giving you another reply because I'm out of space

>>378888816
>Who decided that the Abyss is wild humanity
When every single NPC in DaS1 explicitly told you this in the Oolacile dlc. Abyss == humanity driven wild, it is an artificial creation that wouldn't exist without sorcerers fucking with humanity.

>>378888949
>Its just that "Abyss" is used to describe by the "natural state" of humanity and wild humanity both.
No it isn't, though. If you're about to reference Ringed Knight armor to make this claim, it's because TRC blacksmiths were experimenting with using wild humanity to forge shit with, it's not natural there either. This is how Oolacile learned the "make Abyssal humanity" techniques that they tried on Manus and killed themselves with, they had ambassadors there.

>>378889003
good bait

>>378889357
Fair enough.
On a slight related note, can you explain how Manus could be dead, but those Oolacile sorcerers could torture him and drive his humanity wild?

>>378888072
>This seems to imply that a new First Flame will eventually emerge out of the dark, restarting the Age of Fire at its peak of existence rather than its current hollowed out state.
"Darkness will shortly settle". That is something that has never truly happened in the Souls universe. "Like embers linked by lords past" is the best bit. That leaves the ending up to interpretation. What happens now that the cycle has ended is vague. If you want to believe that "Like embers linked by lords past" states that another "first flame" will appear, then you can. That is a possibility. But it also leaves open the possibility of something new being born of the embers.

>>378888072
>>378889082
Holy shit sorry man, I meant to link a video but I just pasted your quote. Here's the video on the Deep. It's a long one though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FZiAi9LDIs&feature=youtu.be

>>378889730
they resurrected him first, necromancy is a thing ("they awoke that ting themselves..."). a lot of people are under the impression that there was no torturing, the resurrection itself was what did it.

>>378889357
The Ringed City Knight armor was made before there even was a Ringed City. It was made by undead underground to fight the Dragons.

There is no evidence of TRC blacksmiths "experimenting with wild humanity".

>>378889082

>Everything about DaS3 in this post being better than DaS1

Wow, I didn't think a person with your taste existed. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

>Suly in no way had a hand in Aldrich linking the Flame, because that's exactly the opposite of what Suly wants.

Yeah, that makes sense. My only guess to the contrary would be that Suly postponed his Abyss utopia for one more cycle to let Aldritch link the Flame in order to become a Lord of Cinder, because he (Suly) needed his help to conquer Irithyll and Anor Londo. That's total conjecture on my part though, and it's the only way I can see Vaati's opinion making any sense.

>>378890024
The reason I ask is that someone mention somewhere that you don't even need to be alive for your humanity to run wild. They brought up the malfanito from II and Wolnir from III, but I forgot what exactly their argument was.

>>378890452
We know that the Abyss only pops up when Humanity is driven wild. We've known this since Gough and Chester told us this, and Manus' soul confirms it. The Abyss is not a natural phenomenon, there isn't some Abyss just sitting out there just cuz, existing all on it's own. Someone has to CREATE it by driving humanity wild.

The fact that early human blacksmiths were forging with the Abyss means, BY DEFINITION, that they were experimenting with techniques regarding how to drive humanity wild, and making weapons with the results. Similar to how one can make weapons with little itty bits of Chaos, trapped in Chaos Embers.

The Gods told humans to stop fucking doing that because playing with wild humanity is dangerous as fuck. They were proven right when Oolacile had Manus literally blow up in their faces, which created the massive Abyss that we all know and love today.

>>378890737
>Milfanito
Never bothered learning DaS2 lore

>Wolnir
IIRC he was lured into the Abyss before his death, and his spoopy skeleton form is kept alive not by the Abyss but by the crown and bracelets that he wears, which prevent him from being consumed entirely.

>>378891187
>Never bothered learning DaS2 lore
Basically the Milfanito are a race (1 of 2) created by Nito to sing to the souls of the dead to smooth them.
And considering the Abyss is closely tied to certain human emotions, there seems to be a connection somewhere.

>>378883592

Fucking look at him

Does that that look like someone who made the right choices? He's a giant degraded monster with no purpose who found he could not even put out a fire.

Also question

Those insect men, are they primordial man? Is that what a pure dark humanity would be like or become?

Because that sounds really fucking shit if thats our prize for snuffing out fire

>>378891073
Where does the Dark Sign enter into all of this?

>>378891567
>Those insect men, are they primordial man? Is that what a pure dark humanity would be like or become?
>Because that sounds really fucking shit if thats our prize for snuffing out fire

Those Locusts are either created by or are attracted to rotten humanity just like those flies in the Painted World.

Don't believe their lies.

>>378891603
The Darksign is the indicator that a Seal or construct of fire has failed. DaS3 provides some indicators of this:

The Ringed Knight Armor was supposedly sealed by fire to suppress its' Abyssal influence. And yet, the armor still displays the characteristic independent will of Abyss-tainted things, and you can see the Abyss proudly boring a hole through the chestpiece. The Seal, which is the ring of fire that is trying (and failing) to hide the Abyssal disk on the armor, has clearly failed. And what is this failed Seal? The Darksign.

We have known since DaS1 that the Sun is a construct of fire. It only sticks around for so long as the flames are strong, and it disappears along with them. In DaS3, when the flames fade almost to the point of exhaustion, the Sun displays a Darksign on it. Again, because this is the sign that a Seal or construct of fire has failed.

Making the basic and reasonable assumption that similar things are similar, we now say that the Darksign on human's bodies plays by the same rules. This is in accordance with the idea that the Gods sealed away ancient man's power, but that this seal has failed for undead.

The failing seal of the Darksign turns you undead. Which naturally implies that the Seal itself was THE ABILITY TO DIE. Corroborating evidence:

http://darksouls.wikidot.com/lord-soul

Death takes the active expenditure of Fire's power to keep running. Naturally, this means that the "status quo" of nature is humans not dying, and that forcing them to die requires energy input. This should tell you that humans are not meant to die of old age, they are meant to be immortal like the Lords are, only susceptible to violent death or disease.

TLDR the Darksign is the sign of the Lords' failed seal on mankind. The seal is Death. Men aren't meant to die of old age, they're meant to be immortal like the Lords were, only able to die by the sword or plague. Having them drop dead of old age is a power limiter.

>>378889082
>straight line
>woven
Learn what that fucking word means please.
Also that guy probably meant interconnected by having each area cycle on each other with multiple branching paths. Allowing area/build rush. Because there was no starting bonfire warp in DS1 this was extremely necessary.

It gets worse in DS2 then absolutely aweful in DS3, with bonfires being 30 seconds apart and every run playing the exact same. The only real sequence break is Dancer. This gives you access to Consumed King Garden (one of the shortest and worst areas in the game), a copy paste of the starting level, and upper Lothric castle. Yippeee.

Also Archdragon Peak is only accessible through warp.

>>378892417
>>378891603
The reason why men are undead when they are branded with the Darksign, as opposed to just dropping dead and staying dead, is a manifestation of the flame's weakening power.

As the flames fade, disparity fades with them. Disparity is born of fire, not the other way around. This includes things disparity such as Life vs Death.

The Lord's seal on mankind is tied to the strength of flame, just like literally everything else they build. By the time the flames weaken to the point where the Seal begins to fail, the dichotomy of Life and Death weakens to the point where those affiliated with the Dark (humans, rats, dogs, etc) stop being able to die properly. Hence the Undead.

>>378891073
I'm the guy you replied to.

I just refreshed myself on Gough and Chester's dialogue. They mention how the Abyss comes from Manus, and that Manus was driven mad, but neither of them nor Manus' soul preclude the possibility of the Abyss being natural.

Gwyn cursed humans with the Dark Sign because when they died the darkness of humanity seeped from them, causing the Abyss to grow. The Dark Sign (a ring of fire surrounding a dark hole) prevented the escape of this darkness, rendering humans undead. This is why undead bear Dark Sigils which slowly leak darkness into the Abyss. We know Gwyn has a deep fear for the Abyss and the Dark, so this adds up.

So because of this, and the fact that the armor itself was forged at the start of everything, that the Abyss is natural, and not something that only appears when people experiment with Humanity.

>>378885184
So what is everyone's opinion here on Gwyn?

>>378883592
He's certainly the most poorly written OC donutsteel of DaS3.

>>378894606
He has a nice theme song

File: Gwyn, the Lord of Cinder.jpg (607KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

607KB, 1920x1080px

>>378894606
Love him.

>fights on front lines of his own war
>literally founds civilization
>is generous with wealth; divides soul to give to others, makes Anor Londo equally accessible for humans, gives Pygmies a city despite them being his antithesis not not helping win the war
>sacrifices himself to burn for hundreds/thousands of years just to prolong the civilization he created,

And people have the audacity to suggest it would be better to just let the fire fade.
That's like saying don't cut the grass and embrace the jungle that will inevitably claim your home.

>>378894341
>Neither them nor Manus' soul preclude the possibility of the Abyss being natural
They all state that the only reason it exists in Oolacile is because a bunch of Oolacile sorcerers fucked with his soul until it nuked the city. Manus did not FATHER (father, meaning that he created it, meaning that the Abyss is something that is created and therefore artificial) the Abyss until after his humanity was driven wild, and the Abyss is a consequence of that. Nothing here is a natural process.

Furthermore, the Undead do not bear Dark Sigils "naturally." They don't do so at all, unless a sorcerer from Londor puts one on them. Such a thing is, once more, artificial. An invention of men, absent in nature.

>the Darksign prevented the escape of darkness, rendering humans undead
Did you just have a stroke? The Dark Sigil description itself states that darkness == the Curse, sealing away darkness has the opposite effect of causing undeath.

>>378884086
RINBO HENGOKU

>>378895068
>They all state that the only reason it exists in Oolacile is because a bunch of Oolacile sorcerers fucked with his soul until it nuked the city.
In fact none of them state that. Gough and Chester do state that they resurrected Manus, (manipulated by Kaathe) and then the Abyss stemmed from him. The Abyss is a natural byproduct of Humanity. But you're right that Manus being alive in Oolacile was not natural.

>Furthermore, the Undead do not bear Dark Sigils "naturally." They don't do so at all, unless a sorcerer from Londor puts one on them. Such a thing is, once more, artificial. An invention of men, absent in nature.
I should be more specific. Yes, while Dark Sigils themselves are not natural, they resemble and accomplish the same thing (slowly seeping darkness from undead) as the mark that brands someone as undead. Undead bear this mark because the darkness of humanity cannot escape them through death, and slowly seeps out of that mark. The Dark Sigil does the exact same thing.

>Did you just have a stroke? The Dark Sigil description itself states that darkness == the Curse, sealing away darkness has the opposite effect of causing undeath.
That is not what the Dark Sigil says. Let me give you a refresher:
"A black, gaping hole in the flesh that resembles the brand of an Undead.

The darkness of humanity seeps from this bottomless pitch-black hole, the gap filled by the accumulation of the curse.

This Dark Sigil will never heal, but there is a tale told of a Fire Keeper who returned from the Abyss, and brought great comfort to a bearer of the curse."

Lot of misinformation in this thread about the dark sign.

The dark sign is a literal and metaphysical prisoners chain. It is the seal placed on all of those who bear a piece of the dark soul (all of humanity). It was created by the Gods (Gwyn) and the Ringed City's political machinations and religious culture was all a propaganda machine purposely built by Gwyn in order to drive humanity into WILLFUL subjugation. This was the purpose of gifting his own daughter (Fillianore) to the Ringed City as goddess and protector.

Gwyn grew weary of the power of the dark soul when he conscripted the might of the ringed knights to aid him in his campaign against the eternal dragons. He saw what humanity was truly capable of and he knew fear. However, instead of trying to destroy the dark soul he conceived an entire kingdom, the ringed city, and gifted it to humanity in order too control the dark and use it as literal tinder for the first flame. Gwyn discovered that the dark souls capacity for souls made it the ideal fuel for the first flame. Gwyn literally created the darksign and etched it into the souls of all dark soul bearers and fostered the legend of the chosen undead while simultaneously CREATING the undead curse, through the dark sign, in order to indirectly control the power of the dark soul and use humanity as literal tinder for the first flame for an eternity.

>>378896178
>Ancient Manus was clearly once human. But he became the Father of the Abyss after his humanity went wild, eternally seeking his precious broken pendant. -- Soul of Manus

Check those items a bit harder. The timeline of Oolacile is:

Sorcerers resurrect the ancient human Manus -> Sorcerers do magic bullshit to Manus -> said bullshit drives Manus' humanity wild -> his Wild Humanity explodes into the Abyss as we know it -> Manus is the Father of the Abyss

He only became the Father of the Abyss after his humanity was driven wild, and it is something that he artificially produced and whose spread he sustains. The term "Father" is not metaphorical, Elizabeth states that Manus begat it, and that by killing him you halt it's continued spread.

Since the Abyss is the product of wild humanity, and humanity is not naturally wild, it must be driven wild, the Abyss is not natural.

>Undead bear this mark because darkness cannot escape them through death
You explanation fails to account for why the Unkindled, who bear the Darksign, cannot hollow.

Also your copypaste job of the Dark Sigil description, though pretentious, proved nothing
>the Dark Sigil is a hole in your chest
>it is filled with Humanity, which seeps out of it continuously
>the hole is filled with the Curse
Put two and two together, anon

>>378886265
>Gwyn opens the fight by flying at you from across the arena with a flaming sword

uhhhh

>>378896787
>Gwyn literally created the darksign and etched it into the souls of all dark soul bearers and fostered the legend of the chosen undead while simultaneously CREATING the undead curse
No

File: 1494338016947.png (302KB, 396x426px) Image search: [Google]

302KB, 396x426px

>All the faggit OC headcanon of the pntiff actually became canon
Seriously what the fuck does every game need a master keikakku master form?

>>378885717
>That is a defiance of the course of nature
What the fuck are you smoking? The Age of Fire is completely and totally artificial. The true form of the world is that of dark.

>>378897803
Kaathe please go

>>378897764
This is literally the only time in the whole series this is true, stop bitching.

>>378897873
Nigger who is the first scholar from 2 and Kaathe from the first one.

>>378896787
There's always that one guy in these threads who thinks that philosophy is an acceptable substitute for in-game evidence

>>378897872
No, seriously. It's right there in the first cutscene of the first game. It's like the only thing about Dark Souls lore that's not debatable.

>>378898221
Just because the Dark is the endgame of the world doesn't make fire any less natural. The unnatural part was keeping the Fire alive by linking it with powerful souls.

File: aldia.jpg (26KB, 348x232px) Image search: [Google]

26KB, 348x232px

But only one man was 100% right.

What is the Deep?
Is that Bloodborne?

>>378898673
>>378888556

>>378898531
>People unironcally like speical OC steel donut
>but hate Aldia
Dark souls 3 was a mistake

>>378884551
>>378884958
Sully is a hero, not a villain. Fuck Gwyn and his bloodline, Gwyn is evil and put the curse of the undead on humans via the darksign.

@OP: Most alpha boss lorewise is Burned Ivory King.

File: 1495635975678.jpg (58KB, 400x381px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 400x381px

>always used to read his name as Sulvayhn
>only realised recently that his name is just Sullivan spelled in a strange way

gets parried and riposted like a bitch

>>378883592
>alpha
>gets punked by DSP

>>378898894
You pronounce it a bit weirdly too, listen to Yorshka's dialogue.

>>378898305
Dark's not the "endgame" of the world, it's the origin. It's just how the world is without the influence of a linked fire. The fire being dominant is unnatural because it was spurred on by the mortals and gods alike.

File: 1448095704409.jpg (8KB, 300x199px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 300x199px

>>378898531
> DS2 still has the best ending of the series

>>378886714
DS3 is literally the recycled asset game a studio makes when they need to keep the lights on.

It's a dead horse that brought nothing of value to the table and damaged the franchise just like DS2 did.

Demon's Dark and Bloodborne are the only good game in this franchise and DS2-3 will be forgotten.

>>378896787
>However, instead of trying to destroy the dark soul he conceived an entire kingdom, the ringed city, and gifted it to humanity in order too control the dark and use it as literal tinder for the first flame.
Except Gwyn's first plan to deal with the fading of the fire was to have the Witches create another first flame, not link the fire.

>>378897439
>You explanation fails to account for why the Unkindled, who bear the Darksign, cannot hollow.
Anyone got an explanation for this?

>>378898131
In all fairness, their is a lot mentions in the game about how unkindled are prisoners to the first flame.

>>378898531
I like Aldia, but everyone keeps thinking that he is advocating a third option when he's suggesting nothing of the sort.

>>378899092
>hey I found a way to cure the Curse
>but I'm just going to keep it aaaaaaaaallll to myself :^) fuck you niggas!
>best ending

>>378899182
His third option is literally fuck this shit hey cursed one wanna hang out until we figure out what to do?

he isnt alpha. he's a fucking asshole and i hate him.

>>378899182
>>You explanation fails to account for why the Unkindled, who bear the Darksign, cannot hollow.
>Anyone got an explanation for this?

Here's how I always saw it be explained in past lore threads:

The Dark Sigil and Unkindled are concepts that go hand-in-hand. Fully understanding one means understanding the other. The central mystery at the heart of both things is "why do Unkindled not hollow, and what does this mean?"

First, recognize one very basic fact about the Souls universe: Humans hollow when they lose their humanity. That is the one and only condition needed to hollow out. Regaining your humanity reverses hollowing. So, if an Undead is literally incapable of hollowing, they therefore must be literally incapable of losing their humanity. It's somehow been trapped within them, unable to "escape" upon death like normal.

We can suppose that this trapping of humanity is an artifact of whatever magic the Bell of Awakening used to manufacture the Unkindled in the first place. After all, the Unkindled aren't a "natural" type of undead, they're birthed via Bell necromancy. Imprisoning their humanity is somehow a side effect (or maybe an intended effect) of this magic.

Now, what does the Dark Sigil do? It enables the ability to hollow. By looking at the damn thing and reading it's description >>378896178
we observe that it is a hole that's been filled chalk-full of Humanity. Specifically, Your humanity. The hypothesis I see thrown about most commonly is that the Dark Sigil is a tap, bored into an Unkindled's flesh like a tap meant to drain sap from a tree. A little of the Unkindled's humanity leaks into the tap, and vacates the premises as normal upon death, having been freed from its' shackles. Then the no-empty tap refills when the Unkindled respawns. Do this enough times and the amount of normally-trapped Humanity stock the Unkindled possesses depletes to the point where they hollow out, which is what Londor wants.

>>378899323
All he ever states is that there are only really two options to pick: Link the fire or not.

>>378899806
>Do this enough times and the amount of normally-trapped Humanity stock the Unkindled possesses depletes to the point where they hollow out, which is what Londor wants.
Because they want to stuff the Ashen One with the First Flame right?
There's a lot of things about Londor that don't really make sense.

>>378900114
>Because they want to stuff the Ashen One with the First Flame right?
As far as I know, yes, that's the plan.

>>378899851
For there to be a path, you need to make one. You need to go beyond deathhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv8r8KBGJtA&t=162s

File: me.png (72KB, 1024x1071px) Image search: [Google]

72KB, 1024x1071px

If he's so important then why do we fight him so early in the game?

Checkmate, atheists.

>>378900187
So does Londor want an Age of Dark or not?
Because getting rid of your humanity/dark soul and becoming a hollow seems to be counter to that.

>>378899806
>like a tap meant to drain sap from a tree.
This is kind of funny if, like me, you believe that Hollows originate from the Archtrees.

>>378900658
The halfway point in the game is early now?

>>378900761
>This is kind of funny if, like me, you believe that Hollows originate from the Archtrees.
Hollows literally did not exist until the First Flame came into being and birthed the concept of Darkness. They came from the Dark, not the grey.

>>378900846

For somebody that "important" to the lore, yes.

>>378900761
Londor wants an Age of Dark, but they don't want it to end. DaS2 and DaS3 both imply that the Cycle alternates between ages of Dark and Fire. Just as how the Fires gradually faded away to give rise to the Darkness, in the Age of Dark the Dark gradually fades away to give rise to new light. Disparity is a Pandora's Box that cannot be closed, and there must always be yin and yang.

For Darkfags like Londor and Kaathe, this is a problem. They want their Age of Dark to last for literally forever. So instead of letting a "natural" Age of Dark come to pass, which is what the 2 Firekeeper endings are, they figured out a way to manufacture some artificial bastardized version of the Age of Dark that's based on trapping the First Flame inside an undead. For so long as the Lord of Hollows holds it within him, it should last for literally forever.

>>378888463
JSF is legitimately smart and dosnt just pull shit out his ass. Same with Aegon of Astora. I like their souls/bb content.
Theyre also both college professors

>>378885184
Gwyn in DS1 is a shadow of his former glory
Ponty in DS3 is at his prime

Who would win in a fight: 100,000,000,000,000 Pygmy Lords, or Slave Knight Gael?

>>378899248
What? The crowns remove the curse from you with their combined power.

There is nothing to share.
The Bearer of the Curse gets rid of his curse by beating the shit out of everything and by obtaining everything somewhat magical.

Aldia immortality is a different alltogether and nothing you would wish upon anyone.

>>378901650
I never understood why the Crowns were able to reverse hollowing. What granted them this power?

>>378901167
Is that the best ending?

>>378901854
Each crown has its own power and getting all three seems to amass enough power for you to get over the curse.

That's just a theory - They never actually explain it.

If the Dark Souls are Humanity, why humans become Hollow?
Is there a way for humans to not become crazy hollows or they are doomed to become crazy hollows with a few superhumans in the age of dark?

>>378901905
Cuddle with waifu ending. It's no longer worth linking the flame, the diminishing returns have gotten too steep and the costs too high. Just let the Dark come and sweep the world as we know it away, so that a new healthy world may one day take it's place. Cuddle with the Firekeeper and bask in the utter, total, perfect serenity that is the Dark. A peaceful gentle stillness akin to death as the universe effectively goes into hibernation until the last tiny embers of the First Flame roar into new fire. And if that doesn't sound appealing, there's always the Painting to wait it out in, though you might have to take turns guarding it in the world outside from stray hollows.

>>378902079
Humans hollow because you're "supposed" to lose your soul when you die. Undead just have the misfortune of coming back to life anyway, soul or no soul.

>doomed to become a crowd of crazy hollows with a few superhumans mixed in in the Dark
Yep. Though, after enough time the hollows become pretty docile so it won't be that big of a deal. Just enjoy the Dark, it's supposed to be peaceful and gentle outside of Abyssal terrors fucking shit up. Plus, the Deep (which is an endless ocean of disembodied humanity) surfaces from wherever it's normally buried in during the Age of Dark, judging by TRC, so you can hang out in the Darkness beach and eye up all the undead bitches

>>378897439
How do you see
>Ancient Manus was clearly once human. But he became the Father of the Abyss after his humanity went wild, eternally seeking his precious broken pendant
as
>All Abyss is an artificial product of sorcerers messing with Manus' Soul
Especially when we KNOW that the Abyss is a byproduct of Humanity and its first appearance on the timeline is essentially right after the Dark Soul was discovered.

>Elizabeth states that Manus begat it, and that by killing him you halt it's continued spread
She said that Manus began "an" Abyss IIRC. And of course he did, he was primeval man, he could have a much larger chunk of the Dark Soul or maybe being one of if not the original man gave him some affinity with the Dark and Abyss. It never states that he was resurrected; Chester and Gough both only state that they "awoke" and "upturned his grave". It sounds much more like they disturbed him. Chester and Gough both go on to say that they "incited his wrath". Never is it said that experimentation on his soul and humanity artificially created the Abyss. Which makes sense because we now have hard proof that the Abyss has been around for at least as long as men have had the Dark Soul.

Manus being the father of the Abyss is him spreading and sustaining the Abyss in Oolacile. The Abyss isn't one place or one thing, it's simply a byproduct of Humanity.

>You explanation fails to account for why the Unkindled, who bear the Darksign, cannot hollow
Unkindled bear the Darksign, but not the mark of an Undead. The mark of an Undead is a black hole on the skin.

>Put two and two together, anon
Um, it says it leaks the darkness of Humanity, just like the original mark of an undead. If it's LOSING darkness, how is the curse that accumulates (GAINS) also darkness? The curse is the Darksign. Gwyn cursed man. Darkness and the Abyss isn't the curse it's a byproduct

>>378900883
Then why do hollows keep turning into trees then?
I mean, there are so many examples throughout the whole series.

>>378901167
As as Ariandal shows, Londor's plan is doom to failure because the eventual fate of humanity/the dark soul is to stagnate and rot.

>>378901443
>Theyre also both college professors
That would explain it then.

>>378901854
>>378902071
If I had to guess, I would say the crowns give the botc a near limitless supply of humanity or something to that effect.

>>378899094
>DS3 is literally the recycled asset game a studio makes when they need to keep the lights on
First off, Dark Souls 1 used the same assets as Demons Souls. Bloodborne uses many of the same assets as the Souls series. Recycled assets doesn't make a game bad. It saves development time and if done well shouldn't have a negative effect.

Secondly if it was just somehting to keep the lights on, Miyazaki, the president of a game PRODUCTION company, wouldn't have put himself at the head of game DEVELOPMENT. It was something he put his heart into, read between the lines.

>It's a dead horse that brought nothing of value to the table and damaged the franchise just like DS2 did
This is not true from a lore/narrative perspective or a gameplay design perspective. It brought plenty new to the table on both fronts.

>Demon's Dark and Bloodborne are the only good game in this franchise and DS2-3 will be forgotten
Demon's Souls is mediocre, along with DS2. DS1 is uncomplete kino. It was rushed and left many areas and gaps in the lore incomplete. DS3 and BB are completely finished games that take every design aspect from their predecessors and improve on them. You simply have terrible taste and an even worse understanding of game development and what makes a good piece of art.

>>378902972
The aspects of BB that DS3 used were worse in every way and FP was the worst magic system in the series.

>>378903160
>The aspects of BB that DS3 used were worse in every way
What aspects of BB did DS3 use exactly? And how are they worse?

>FP was the worst magic system in the series
The magic system in Souls games was never outstanding, it never needed to be. It has always been an arbitrary way to limit spellcasts. Allowing the same limiter to also effect things like special weapon attacks is pretty inconsequential. It's slightly better than "you can use this spell this many times", if for no other reason than it's more dynamic.

>>378902972
>DS3 takes every aspect from predecessors and improves on them

Someone post the level design comparison of the Dark Souls series

>>378902529
>How do you see
>>Ancient Manus was clearly once human. But he became the Father of the Abyss after his humanity went wild, eternally seeking his precious broken pendant
>as
>>All Abyss is an artificial product of sorcerers messing with Manus' Soul
Holy shit my man, are you fucking with me right now?

>[the sorcerers of Oolacile] awoke [Manus] themselves, and drove it mad -- Hawkeye Gough
>[the sorcerers of Oolacile] upturned the grave of [Manus] and incited his ornery wrath -- Marvelous Chester
Both of these serve to tell you that Manus' humanity being driven wild was a result of Oolacile citizens fucking with him. Gough tells you this explicitly. And then, what happens when his humanity went wild?
>[Manus] became the Father of the Abyss after his humanity went wild -- Soul of Manus

A leads to B, and B leads to C, therefore by the math you should have learned in the 7th grade, A leads to C. Oolacile sorcerers fucking with Manus drove his humanity wild, which resulted in the Abyss. No driving humanity wild, no Abyss. Simple as that.

Again, this whole discussion is regarding whether or not the Abyss is something that must be artificially produced, or is a natural occurrence. DaS1 conclusively tells you that the Abyss must be manufactured by driving humanity wild. DaS3 tells you that Humans had learned how to do this very early on in their history, and were using the equivalent of Abyssal Embers to forge weapons. These early experiments in driving humanity wild are what Oolacile used in their experiments on Manus, which ended terribly for them and birthed the Abyss as we know it now.

>guy is dead and buried
>people "wake him up"
>he's now alive and very pissed off at you
>not resurrection
Anon get the fuck out of here. Words mean things.

>The brand/mark of an Undead isn't the Darksign
Wrong

http://darksouls.wikidot.com/darksign
http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Darksign

>explain the Dark Sigil
>>378899806

>>378902574
Corrupted souls turn into trees, anon. Chaos shit is also trees, are they hollowed? I posit that tree hollows are Abyss-infected. You can tell because the Londor Pilgrims, which are the predecessors of hideous mutated Darkness monsters (which are almost always Abyssal) have twigs and shit sticking out of them, you can see it under their turtle shells.

As to WHY corrupted souls become trees, I dunno. Maybe the original hollows who came from the Dark budded off the enshadowed archtrees or something? Who can say

>>378903686
I'll give you a quick rundown but feel free to post it so I can explain to you in detail how it's bullshit.

>DS1
Fantastic world and level design for the first half of the game (pre lord vessel). Afterwards the game's polish wears off and the world and level design take a hit. Miyazaki admits that many areas in the second half of the game were either incomplete or didn't meet his standards.

>DS2
The entirety of the game's level and world design is even worse than that of the second half of DS1. Except for the 3 pieces of DLC, which more or less meet the standard of the second half of DS1.

>BB
Level/world design that meets and sometimes surpasses that of the first half of DS1 throughout the entire game.

>DS3
Fantastic world design that never falls off, though one or two of the level's only reach the second half of DS1's standards.

What the fuck was Gaels problem?

>>378904245
gib humanity pls

>>378903641
It tried to be as flashy and fast as BB, but it kept too much of the slowness of DaS. As a result, I'm moving much faster than I feel I should, but not as fast as I need to. It's just a weird, halfway mess.

I can't agree that the FP system is better than X casts per spell. Your weak, fast spells end up cutting into you strong, slow spells and your weapon arts. It's so much of a hassle for so little reward that you're better off just not bothering at all.

Also, DaS3 poise is the worst poise ever. Shouldn't have even bothered and just given big weapons hyperarmor.

>>378904570
>so little reward
It makes magic less braindead to use. That's plenty reward.

>>378884413
>Had to post an anime image.

>>378883592
source?

>>378903876

>>[the sorcerers of Oolacile] awoke [Manus] themselves, and drove it mad
>>[the sorcerers of Oolacile] upturned the grave of [Manus] and incited his ornery wrath
>>[Manus] became the Father of the Abyss after his humanity went wild -- Soul of Manus

>A leads to B, and B leads to C, therefore by the math you should have learned in the 7th grade, A leads to C.
Okay, we're on the same page up until this point:
>Oolacile sorcerers fucking with Manus drove his humanity wild, which resulted in the Abyss. No driving humanity wild, no Abyss. Simple as that.
Resulted in """an""" Abyss. We KNOW that the Abyss has been around since far before Oolacile. Manus was the source of the Abyss that manifested in Oolacile. Now on a more meta level, Manus is literally the father of ALL Abyss because he's the first man to come into contact with the Dark Soul. So he's literally the "Father of the Abyss", but the Abyss in Oolacile wasn't the first appearance of the Abyss in the Souls timeline.

>Again, this whole discussion is regarding whether or not the Abyss is something that must be artificially produced, or is a natural occurrence. DaS1 conclusively tells you that the Abyss must be manufactured by driving humanity wild.
No it does not. It absolutely 100% does no conclusively say that the Abyss was artificially produced by people tampering with Manus' humanity. It DOES conclusively say that the Abyss that manifested in Oolacile was a result of people messing with Manus. Just because the Abyss showed up after people messed with Manus does NOT conclusively state that ALL Abyss must come from tampering with Humanity. We know that Humanity leaks darkness (Abyss) naturally, so there will always be Abyss. Driving Humanity wild likely has the effect of largely speeding up the process. Especially when it's the Humanity of the original human.

>>378905387
There's zero reward. You spend more time and effort trying to make magic work when you can get the same (if not better) results by just picking up a straight sword and going Quality. It's not a reward, it's a deterrent.

>>378883592
Yes.

>>378904162
>Maybe the original hollows who came from the Dark budded off the enshadowed archtrees or something?
How is that any different than what I implied?
I personally don't take the line "And from the Dark, they came" as completely literal. Its more metaphoric if anything.

>>378905832
>I personally don't take the line "And from the Dark, they came" as completely literal
You probably should, though, because hollows who lack souls are dark-resistant even though they have no humanity. So beings without souls are inherently darkness-affiliated by type resistances.

>>378905886
>because hollows who lack souls are dark-resistant even though they have no humanity.
Where are you getting this from?

>>378906086
elemental damage testing on DaS3 enemies. Go ahead and smack them with a deep/dark weapon, and then a normal or fire weapon. They're heavily dark resistant. The only guy who you would describe as "hollow" who violates this is the Nameless King who's weak to Dark, but that's because he is a Lord and may or may not be hollow, just old as shit.

Also the big difference is the idea that hollows were around before the First Flame, along with the archdragons, or if they appeared after the Flame as a consequence of the Flame introducing Darkness into the world. Being made of trees isn't the most necessary thing so much as the chronology of events.

File: image.jpg (148KB, 500x721px) Image search: [Google]

148KB, 500x721px

>>378899182
His "idea" was that he had no idea, but as beings freed from the cycle, only he and the Bearer of the Curse had enough longevity to actually try and find one. Aldia and the BotC are the only beings actually free of the Cycle.

>>378906365
>elemental damage testing on DaS3 enemies.
I know that a lot of gameplay mechanics in souls have lore implications, but I think this is reaching a little.

>but that's because he is a Lord and may or may not be hollow, just old as shit.
I'm pretty sure NK is hollow since it is somewhat implied that he killed Ornstein when the guy went to meet him unarmed.
Unless you believe the dumb theory that Ornstein is the King of the Storm.

>>378901650
>Undead grow stronger by killing and assimilating others
>Bearer of the Curse killed literally every powerful being on the continent, in both the past and present
How fucking swole was that guy by the end

>>378905681
The Deep, as a concept, was introduced to prove the assertion that "stray humanity == the Abyss" false. The "normal" state of humanity, aka the status quo that Abyssal/wild humanity violates, is peaceful, gentle and stagnant. It's not like Manus' humanity was sitting in the grave being Abyssal as shit during all those ages before being revived, it only turned Abyssal after going wild.

Now, if your claim is that stray dregs/pieces/leakings/whatever of humanity occasionally (rarely) go wild on it's own, without anyone having to specifically drive them wild, I would be willing to buy that. What I am NOT willing to buy is that what we would call the baseline state of Humanity, or Darkness in general, is Abyssal terror. The baseline state of humanity is gentle and soothing, as is the Dark. Both DaS2 and DaS3 make this clear. The Abyss is a violation of these things.

Furthermore, I maintain that the primeval men only worked with small, controlled quantities of the Abyss in their forgings. The Abyss of Oolacile was the world's first big ass heap of Abyss big enough to be described as it's own bonafide location. Mostly because not even DaS3 tells you about towns getting nuked by Abyssal darkness before Oolacile, and also because large quantities of Abyss like what Manus produced would be impossible to make productive use (like forging) of. They just kill you or worse.

>>378906886
2 powerstanced berserkswords.

>>378906809
You can kill someone without being hollow. And how could NK kill Ornstein when he died in DaS?

>>378907178
Ornstein donated his soul to Gwyndolin who made a golem out of it, like they did with whoever made

http://darksouls.wikidot.com/core-of-an-iron-golem

You killed the golem in DaS1 as Ornstein walked around the world hollow, looking for the NK

>>378907178
Orenstein was summoned as a spear of the church

File: image.jpg (47KB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 500x500px

>>378907178
Pretty sure that it's common knowledge at this point that the Ornstein in Anor Londo was one of Gwyndolin's illusions. What I don't get is what the fuck the Old Dragonslayer was supposed to be. When DKSII came out, everyone assumed that it was really Ornstein, but now with DKSIII, we are being told that the Nameless King killed him? Im not usually one to worry over plotholes, but this one is killing me

>>378907178
>You can kill someone without being hollow.
NK and Ornstein are friends that go way back.
Why would NK kill Ornstein when Ornstein approached him unarmed?

>>378907396
A cosplayer

>>378907495
Because he was an edgy dragonfucker that hated his dad