Is Blizzard the best developer in gaming history? if not

go away metzen

capcom ps2 era and earlier
konami ps2 era and earlier
blizzard

They were undoubtedly by far the best until December 7, 2010. Now they're one of if not the absolute worst.

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>fucked up wow
>fucked up starcraft
>fucked up diablo
>two "good" games are tf2 clone and shitty children's cardgame

i wonder

They used to be top 3. Not anymore.

>>378597210
you have no idea how deep the "worst developer" barrel even goes if you think blizzard can see the bottom with a telescope

>>378597272
>tf2 clone
>implying tf2 invented anything

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haha yeah i love blizzard...have you guys bought your overwatch loot boxes today? hearthstone packs? don't forget, the event ends in 2 weeks...

yes, right beside bethesda and current valve

>>378597328
Considering the last 4 "games" they have made have just been microtransaction based cashins they're basically as bad as chinks that steal IPs just to sell them to other chinks or mobile devs.

>>378597496
all dlc and new characters are free, only faggots buy cosmetics in games

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>>378597612
ooh but hearthstone packs aren't cosmetics, good go- i mean friend, they help you play the game!

blizzard has literally never made a good game since the first starcraft

diablo 2 was made at a studio of people that doesn't exist anymore

>>378597606
>>378597496
>selling cosmetics to run servers and shit is the same as asset-flipping a game 200 times, running p2w joints, selling non-functional software labelled as games
here's your yous

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>>378597747
yes, continue to support blizzard, they need your money...

>>378597210
Blizzard is nowhere near the worst. The fact their games work and deliver what they promise and don't trick people at E3 says to me they're not the worst.

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>>378597747
Yeah you're right, so much work went in to making virulent garbage like Hearthstone or Heroes of the Swarm. I didn't even think you could casualize ASSFAGGOTS until Blizzard arrived on the scene.

>>378597086
They used to be

>>378597334
>nationally themed characters
>unlockable outfits
>the entire game design
It added women and that's literally it. Not that I'm against Blizz. Valve needed a kick in the pants. Saying that Valve innovated nothing is idiotic though.

>>378597334
> tf2 didnt invented anything
>blizzard clones it

wouw, the only good dame was starcraft 1 and broodwars, dont kid yourselve

>>378597869
reading is hard
>>378597996
nice 1

>>378597869
No, don't listen to him! Nintendo needs your money more! Jews fear the Samurai remember goy... guh... I mean Gaijin?

>>378598120
This.

Starcraft. Warcraft. Diablo. WC2&3. BW. D2. And maybe vanilla and BC WoW if you're into MMOs. All downhill from there.

>>378597210
This its no longer about making the best game they can. Fuck Activision so much.

>>378598176
street fighter had nationally themed characters
loads of games had outfits
I didn't know using the generic fps formula was copying tf2

>>378598216
correct since Diablo was done by Blizzard North

>>378597086

Not anymore.

>>378598413
Street Fighter had very shallow nationally themed characters. TF2 took it pretty far. You can decide for yourself how far Blizz took it.

Many games had outfits but no one was doling them out for cash before TF2 afaik. Certainly not on their level anyway.

TF2 isn't a generic FPS and you know it.

>copied warhammer
>copied warhammer 20k
>copied everquest
>copied magic the gathering
>copied tf2

i lieked 'em better 20 years ago

>>378597086
I'd say Orange Box Valve and prior was a pretty meaty resume.

They have always been and are still the greatest gaming company. It's kinda baffling that people shit on D3 and modern WoW for essentially both games choosing to focus more on gameplay mechanics (which is a good thing because video games are supposed to be about gameplay, remember that, /v/? Apparently not when it comes to your nostalgia Blizz games though....)

>>378597086
Best at destroying their IPs, yes.

>>378597086
Not even top 10.

Doesn't mean they're bad.

Just not as great as some people make them out to be.

>>378597086
last good game made by blizzard was frozen throne

SC2 failed.
Diablo 3 is dead.
The last 4 WoW expansions are terrible.
HotS is on life support from Overwatch with skin bait.

I guess Overwatch and Hearthstone are making them money hand over fist.

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>>378598613
This.

Even if they're good at taking other people's ideas and doing it better, they're still >>>>that<<<< guy who goes "OH I GOT AN IDEA FOR A GAME, MOBA'S ARE HYPE RIGHT NOW, LET'S MAKE A MOBA BUT 3D!!!! LET'S MAKE A KICKSTARTER!"

The only thing separating them from similar losers is that they got to be there at the start of the industry.

>>378598583
So because you think SF is shallow that doesn't count? Pretty retarded right there. Plenty of korean grinder mmos have had outfit cash shops. TF2 is pretty generic with the capture point and capture the flag. I was playing something akin to payload a year before tf2 even had payload

>>378597684
That people go out of their way to play CCGs is one thing in favor of misanthropy.

>>378598695

You don't even know what gameplay is. You think it's just hitting monsters that gib and big flashy particle effects go everywhere? You're a moron. The gameplay has gotten worse, not better.

Someone sell me on Blizzard's games other than Overwatch. I've never been one for RTS games but I've always wanted to try StarCraft just because of how much hype it gets. And I'm somewhat interested in HotS just because of the Overwatch characters.

>>378598804
SC2 sold millions of copies though.

>>378597086
Maybe at one time when their games offered a complete experience. Now Blizzard is the most jewish company though. You buy an incomplete and buggy game and they charge you money to fix it.

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>>378597086
It depends on the game desu. The Heroes of the Storm team is really good at managing the game and communicating with players while the hearthstone team is absolute dogshit. WoW and overwatch are somewhere inbetween and Diablo leaning towards good.

The way their games are marketed/developed/maintained really differs alot and not just because of the different Genres.

>>378599132
sold thanks to name brand

>>378597086
Best merchants maybe. Developer? No.

>>378599253
Quite a few games didn't sell despite being a name brand, DmC being one. Sonic Boom didn't sell.

hots, overwatch, hearthstone

all basically shovelware designed to sell as many hats as possible

it's over boys

>>378599395
>DmC being one. Sonic Boom
>having the same brand recognition as Blizzard

You're an idiot.

>>378597086
I'd say Activision is the best developer :~)

>>378599395
not all name brands are equal.

Also Sonic wasn't exactly doing too well come Boom's release and DmC had the issue of changing the look of Dante

>>378599498
I wasn't aware Blizzard was the Walt Disney of fucking video games. Maybe in Korea, the only place in the world anybody gives a shit about their strategy games.

>>378599841
>devil may cry being anywhere near as popular as any of blizzard's franchises

based retard bro

1. Bethesda
2-1000. literally don't care

>>378599051
No, gameplay is actually requiring player skill instead of just memorizing builds off the internet then spamming the same one/two moves over and over again.

>inb4 another antiblizz drone uses early game content of D3 or WoW to try to say otherwise

>>378599841
>I wasn't aware Blizzard was the Walt Disney of fucking video games.

Are you for real? Blizzard's exposure to the public eye is second only to Nintendo. Who doesn't know what fucking World of Warcraft is? There was even a South Park episode about it.

>>378600041
>No, gameplay is actually requiring player skill

No it isn't you stupid fucking idiot, that's not what gameplay is.

>>378599841
>didn't know about SC's popularity
>didn't know about Warcraft's popularity before it became WoW

sounds pretty underage to me

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>>378597210
I would actually say Blizzard never made a bad game until Cataclysm

Sure Wrath had issues & ton of cut content to compete with WAR, SC2 had a cheesy story & the MP was not as strong as BW, but they were still solid

Cata was a legit bad game & showed Blizzard were not infallible, sad times indeed

>>378597086
All the good will they've built with Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo has been spent by World of Warcraft, Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3. Hearthstone, HotS and Overwatch put them firmly in the red.

>>378600307
>but they were still solid

They weren't, you were just fooled because they looked polished. It's like putting make-up on a pig.

>>378600170
A game that requires the player to actually interact with it in more dynamic forms is better and more gameplay centric than inputting some numbers then spamming the same commands.

If you think that Vanilla WoW's 2-3 button rotations or Diablo 2's 1 button builds took skill you're delusional as fuck.

>>378600448
You could easily have D2 builds requiring F1 - 6

>>378600448
>meanwhile in modern wow, players only have one button left to press after some healthy round of pruning eliminates some unused abilities which confused the new generation of gamer

>>378600436
SC2's campaign had better gameplay diversity than 99% of RTS

Fuck off

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>>378600676
To an extent, yes you could. But they could only go so far. They weren't really viable, especially when 1.10 introduced synergies which further encouraged "focus into one skill". Not to mention that D2's system is so crap that there's no otherwise incentive to invest in so many different moves as well unlike in D3 where it's required of the player to use all six of their max allotted active skills by endgame to be able to beat content that's current relative to how strong your character is.

>>378600872
Vanilla/TBC Frost mage: frostbolt spam
WOTLK Frost mage: frostbolt, icy veins, ice lance, and one more move I am forgetting
Legion: pic

>>378600448
>A game that requires the player to actually interact with it in more dynamic forms is better and more gameplay centric

So wait, you think pressing more buttons in a rotation of button pressing fits this definition?

That's "interacting in more dynamic forms" to you? You're a fucking deluded fanboy. Nevermind other aspects of gameplay, like immersion, level design, music, atmosphere, story, replayability, depth, etc. No, it's that you now have to press 5 buttons in a repeating order rather than 2.

>>378600915
>SC2's campaign had better gameplay diversity than 99% of RTS

Too bad it was also incredibly disappointing.

>>378600069
Angry Birds was popular too. But Rovio is going under.

>>378601376

That's nice. I have no idea what point you're trying to make, but that's nice.

>>378601150
that's because D2 had rares and + all skills instead of D3's balancing specifically focusing on legendary/set skill effects

>>378601151
Yes, but that's not all. From that perspective, the player's making further actions from his character to affect the game state. It's why /v/ shits on GoW yet loves Platinum Games games. Not to mention that encounter mechanics have gotten significantly more complex so players have to learn to further interact with the game to circumvent those as well.

>all this other stuff
Cool, but secondary to gameplay. Those have nothing to do with PLAYING the game. Nothing to do with conscious player interaction.
|>music part of gameplay
This one makes me lmao pretty hard in particular

>>378597086
Sure, I can give them top 3.

1. Bethesda Game Studios
2. Nintendo
3. Blizzard Entertainment

>>378601150
Vanilla/TBC mage: tons of utility, fire had a lot of depth due to the unique mechanic of rolling ignites and largely became a game of maintaining your ignites in a time when casters actually had to think about movement instead of having babby shit like ice floes to play the game for you

Modern mage: element locked based on spec, utility skills like decurse removed, babby shit like cheat death, and ice floes to allow you to play through mistakes

To top it off, Blizzard actually added an incredible skill in Alter Time which had a lot of depth involve and varied almost every single pull only to remove it because the kind of retard that still plays wow couldn't make any sense of it.

>>378601554
Not really. D3 has rares as well, and D3 didn't start adding the "set mechanics wildly change what you can do with your class" thing until later on. Also don't forget that D3 focuses more on mobility and encounter mechanics as well.

>>378601604
>Cool, but secondary to gameplay.

Those ARE gameplay.

>Those have nothing to do with PLAYING the game

Yes they absolutely do

>Nothing to do with conscious player interaction.

Music has nothing to do with conscious player interaction? Fucking lol.

>From that perspective, the player's making further actions from his character to affect the game state

Yeah, except the game state isn't affected by any further actions. It reacts in exactly the same way it does to the 2-button rotation. Actually less now, since so many abilities and mechanics have been pruned and nothing has replaced them.

>>378601698
>Bethesda

Gets outdone Obsidian

>Nintendo

Oh boy i love Mario & Zelda #4566755

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>>378601927
>Also don't forget that D3 focuses more on mobility and encounter mechanics as well.

Things that nobody cares about because they're shallow WoW mechanics

>mfw Belial

>>378597194
He did.

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>>378601698
>Bethesda

Warcraft 3 was a good game
With Frozen Throne they went "let's add this and that, and that, and that..." and obviously only the nerdiest and diehards would bother to play their game
Then they made WoW which I never played anyway because all my friends were in the good side when I wanted to play a character from the bad side

Basically from Frozen Throne the company was dead to me, only played third party content like Dota

>>378601927
D3 had rares in the beginning and then they got patched into the trash when they made legendaries drop like candy

They also had real difficulty levels until they number inflated those too

>>378602169

How can you dislike TFT? It only improved on the original.

>>378600448
>2-3 button rotations. cookie cutter builds.
Its easy to criticize it today. They were hard because you lacked the resources to know how to play efficiently. Most players were on DSL or dial-up, and Web 2.0 was something very new. Youtube and wikis didn't exist yet either. Usually you learnt everything either by trail and error and talking to players in the game.

>>378602026
>Gets outdone Obsidian
Morrowind > New Vegas and Daggerfall > any Fallout game

>Oh boy i love Mario & Zelda #4566755
You should because they're among the most consistently good series of all time. It's hard to name any series that has lasted 30+ years with dozens of installments nearly all of which have been standard-setting for their respective genres.

>>378601698
10/10 post because it is true to most people.

>>378601845
>tons of utility
Still there in the game. This is literally why they have topped PvP in practically every iteration of the game.

>rolling ignites
Ignite happens, you crit to keep up ignite. Not that complex.

>when casters actually had to think about movement
Bruh what context are you talking about? PvE wise movement is super important like look at the Gul'dan fight in Legion or those two Orcs in BRF whose fight has the constant fire traps or the train guy; PvE movement has never been this important. For PvP it's also more important because mages can't just stand and not worry cuz barriers like they did in older versions of WoW.

>element locked based on spec
If you were using fire when frost in vanilla past level 20, you dun goofed.

>utility skills like decurse removed
Remove curse is now a Druid's job. I thought you guys liked classes being more unique from each other.

>Cheat death
Oh no! How dare a class have a defensive CD equivalent of any kind? Idk how this is babby shit when a mage not being able to dispell anymore, balancing out their PvP potential, is a bad thing. Fucking hypocritical. This is btw a Rogue move not a mage one.

>Ice floes
Again, mobility is MUCH more important in modern WoW due to the amount of stuff thrown at the player at once. Making just a short move then spamming like the old days doesn't cut it anymore.

>Alter time
No need for it because it's a mobility move, and ice floes allows for more smooth and open ended mobility (like I said, movement/mobility are a lot more important now.)

>>378603187
>Not that complex.

Bingo

>>378600436
Wrath was the beginning of the end because of the ever growing casualization of the game and because it introduced the RDF and cross-server dungeons, but was also the peak of WoW. Yeah, there was a lot of cut content and yeah the raids were the epitome of hot and cold with a dumb token system that invalidates even the previous raid tier, but the rest of the game was the best it ever was. Classes were fun to play, things were a lot better balanced than Vanilla (had worse class balance than BC though), quests were a decent balance between classic "kill the guys" stuff and gimmicks, the writing was at its best since WC3 and Blizzard hadn't completely stopped caring about the people who played their game yet.
I strongly believe that if half the raids weren't half-baked then it'd be the best period of WoW, and if it had a vanilla-like raid progression system and limited RDF to same realm only then it would be the absolute GOAT MMO experience.

>>378603187
>If you were using fire when frost in vanilla past level 20, you dun goofed.

t. never played vanilla

>>378603518

>tfw flying mounts was actually an awful idea past the surface level cool-factor

Sure.

Then 2008 happened.

>>378603518
>the writing was at its best since WC3

kek

>forsaken does not forgive, forsaken does not forget
>there must always be a lich king
>muradin lives
>benevolent dragons
>lava man

>>378603725
You mean 2004.

>>378603848
WOW wasn't that bad.

2008 was the activision merger, since then we got the abominations that are the modern blizzard lineup.

>>378603815
>kek
>
>>forsaken does not forgive, forsaken does not forget
>>there must always be a lich king
>>muradin lives
>>benevolent dragons
>>lava man
Compared to what? The literal nothing that was Vanilla story? The horseshit that was in BC?
At the very least Wrath had memorable moments. Maybe I was jumping the gun a bit when I said it was the "best" written since WC3 (not least of all because that implies that WC3 was well written in the first place), but it definitely took strides to bring the writing to the forefront rather than being entirely world building and retconning shit like Vanilla and BC was. It felt like the first time I'd actually give a shit about the WoW plot because it directly continues from Frozen Throne.

>>378604143
Storytelling in MMOs is a different then storytelling in singleplayer games.

And most people would agree that post-wrath WOW style storytelling is a blight on the industry, despite them perfecting the quest driven content formula in vanilla.

Protip: if your game is more cutscene and exposition then gameplay, you're doing it wrong.

>>378601982
>Those ARE gameplay.
No they aren't. Nigga music's gonna play regardless, level design will always be there, same with everything else. What matters in the end with a game is how the player interacts with it, and that's much more sophisticated now than it used to be. Shit dude, there's a reason we call David Cage games non-games.

>It reacts in exactly the same way it does to the 2-button rotation.
No it doesn't at all. A lot of the reason of priorities being more than 2 buttons is because there's so much more mechanically happening that needs to be understood and interacted with.

>>378602097
>Things that nobody cares about because they're shallow WoW mechanics
Not really since WoW mechanics center on a tank having to tank, while here dodging everything is much more important.

>>378602171
The game does have real difficulty levels though. Currently the game has the potential to be harder than it ever could've been.

And yeah legendary drop rates can go high with the system that exists, but that's not only in D3, but every modern day ARPG. It's also like MF stacking in D2.

>>378602504
Cool, but that hasn't really aged all that well into today's gaming world.

>>378604143
>Compared to what? The literal nothing that was Vanilla story?

Yeah. What makes you think it needs a story?

>>378603187
>Still there in the game.
>Straight removed more than half of their kit

>This is literally why they have topped PvP in practically every iteration of the game.

Meanwhile in reality mages are one of the few classes that haven't won a Blizzcon (the only tournament still happening since Cataclysm killed PvP) since 2010.

>Bruh what context are you talking about? PvE wise movement is super important like look at the Gul'dan fight in Legion or those two Orcs in BRF whose fight has the constant fire traps or the train guy; PvE movement has never been this important.

Movement is important, but dealing with it is almost irrelevant tier easy due to the aforementioned babby skills and heavy utilization of instant cast spells. As for PvP, I'm straight disregarding anything you say in that field due to the previous as well as following statements.

>If you were using fire when frost in vanilla past level 20, you dun goofed.
>what is flame blast, flame ward, r1 fireball for a dot, ffb, mutli elemental builds that would take shatter / blast wave

>Remove curse is now a Druid's job. I thought you guys liked classes being more unique from each other.

Except instead of being a unique skill decursing has been baked into a generic dispel that every healer has with the same effects and cooldown.

>Again, mobility is MUCH more important in modern WoW due to the amount of stuff thrown at the player at once.

Call me when 40 players have to move in sync like a clock constantly around a room while also making sure not to get within a certain range of each other in nu-wow.

>No need for it because it's a mobility move, and ice floes allows for more smooth and open ended mobility

Alter time was never strictly a mobility skill, though it could be used as such. In PvE it was primarily a DPS skill based around increasing trinket / proc uptime or even dodging debuffs before it got nerfed. Amazing that, a skill with multiple uses due to the depth inherent in it.

>>378604386
>No it doesn't at all. A lot of the reason of priorities being more than 2 buttons is because there's so much more mechanically happening that needs to be understood and interacted with.

Not him but i'd like to point out that by making more complicated rotations at the same time they also turned all forms of resource management in the game into a generic energy bar, for example, mana does not scale with int anymore and has a fixed regeneration rate, even if the numeric values are higher.

So no, its not more complicated, you've traded an actual complex system of resource cooldown, and threat management and replaced it with Tap Tap Revolution style DPS.

>>378601151
music is not gameplay you dumbass

>>378597086
blizzard north made all their good games
everything they made since WC3 has been a fuckup

>>378597086

The reason why people get so worked up about how much blizzard sucks now is because at some point a blizzard game that affected them deeply and gave them so much joy no longer did so. You have to love something first for it to hurt when it is taken away.

You can have w/e opinion you want about how "blizzard used to be good" but in terms of maintaining a 20+ year long run in the industry Blizzard is pretty much unmatched.

>>378603351
Yeah, Vanilla was pretty simple indeed.

>>378603554
You would have enough talent specced into frost by that point that fire moves into your rotation aren't any good. Especially since by then you'll also start AOEing shit with blizzard more and more often. As for non-leveling, especially PvP, you NEVER used fire if you were Frost. Just because you played suboptimally doesn't mean we all did.

>>378603518
Wrath endgame outside Ulduar and ICC was shit. The zones were built only for flying so they had too much open boring empty space. PvP wise it had one thing or another so ridiculously broken it's not even funny. Content difficulty wise it's the easiest WoW had ever been. For every Storm Peaks great zone we had Zul Drak and Ice Crown which were shit zones. Wrath didn't have encounter mechanics as complex as later WoW but still had the boost to threat, making fights way too simple.

>>378597086
easily the best at releasing optimized games and keeping shit well polished, not a big fan if their post 2009 games but i only play shooters nowdays.
if blizzard owned R6Siege it would easily be the best FPS on the market since.

>>378604706
You seem to forget the near decade they had ruining an entire genre of games.

>>378604386
>What matters in the end with a game is how the player interacts with it

No it isn't. Do you think Portal would be such a good game if it was just a bunch of empty rooms you had to portal your way out of?

>No it doesn't at all

Yes it does. You press the button in the perfect order to do optimal DPS. That's exactly how it worked in Vanilla, and exactly how it works now, it's just that now it's more like playing a watered down Dance Dance Revolution with your fingers. DDR isn't known for it's depth of gameplay though, is it?

>A lot of the reason of priorities being more than 2 buttons is because there's so much more mechanically happening that needs to be understood and interacted with.

Like what? What is mechanically different now?

>Not really since WoW mechanics center on a tank having to tank, while here dodging everything is much more important.

aka don't stand in the fire, which is very much a WoW mechanic

Blizzard is the only company that can polish a turd to absolute perfection; their shit it sparkling

>>378597086
Nintendo are objectively the best developer of all time

>>378604631
No, we sacrificed a simple resource management system for a more dynamic one that's not just based on mana/drinking a mana pot but various procs, trinkets, talents, etc.

Like you nostalgia fags don't get it at all. Stuff like the mana math and the threat math are only fake depth because once you have them figured out they never have to be worried about ever again, fitting easily into a rotation. Comparatively everything today's a priority, meaning that the "rotation" isn't straightforward and different abilities take different priorities during different situations.

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Whenever you ask these kinds of questions, you also need to tell the person responding to name better developers. Otherwise you just get useless and uninteresting "no they suk" replies

>>378597086
If you had asked me in the 90's, I'd probably have said yes.

Suck a fuck, nigger.

>>378605006
overwatch is great u faggot

>>378604748
I'd say PVP in Wrath was much better then in post catacylsm since the game still had content hotspots for end game, for example wintergrasp had the most resource rich areas in the game, and crafting was still somewhat viable at that point.

To make good, fluid world PVP, you need a reason for people to hang out in the open world, and the only way to do that is to create resources to fight over, like elemental spawns and ore nodes, something that they royally fucked up with legion's babby mode professions.

>>378604837

The MMO? It was a doomed genre to start, everything about the foundations of an MMO is based around slow, shitty, pay by the hour internet from the late 90's. It's why you had simplistic combat and grindy progression. It was a novelty genre that existed in it's niche at the right point in time. Blizzard just found a way to give it mainstream appeal for a few years.

>>378604748
>Yeah, Vanilla was pretty simple indeed.

Except you were talking about retail.

Pre-2008 yeah, probably.

After that, no. (((activision))) took over.

>>378605052
No, it is not, you complete homo

>>378597086
Blizzard haven't been good since the mid 2000s

>>378604748
>You would have enough talent specced into frost by that point that fire moves into your rotation aren't any good. Especially since by then you'll also start AOEing shit with blizzard more and more often. As for non-leveling, especially PvP, you NEVER used fire if you were Frost. Just because you played suboptimally doesn't mean we all did.

>never used pom-pyro
>never used fireblast
>thinks the game revolves around rotations
>doesn't understand why a MAGE should be able to use all kinds of spells instead of being limited to one

Do you work for modern Blizzard?

>>378604923
>No it isn't. Do you think Portal would be such a good game if it was just a bunch of empty rooms you had to portal your way out of?
That would be bad encounter design then, no? Good thing that modern WoW has far more intricate encounter design than the basic bitch stuff of Vanilla/TBC/Wrath.

>You press the button in the perfect order to do optimal DPS.
No you don't! How have you not noticed that since at least around Wrath, classes have by and large moved onto a priority system? What move to use during what moment isn't anywhere near as cut and dry as it once used to be thanks to wildly differing mechanics that aren't as straightforward as mana management in vanilla.

>Like what? What is mechanically different now?
A variety of talents, trinkets, procs, and secondary class specific resources that all need to be managed that are nothing like vanilla. Like seriously, if you have only played Vanilla/TBC, it's VERY different.

>aka don't stand in the fire, which is very much a WoW mechanic
Sure, ground aoes are. Stuff like the way Butcher's swipe or his chains work aren't. Every D3 boss isn't just ground aoes.

>>378604318
Alright then let me correct myself: Wrath had the best mix of single player and MMO storytelling. It took steps to making the questlines feel important without funneling players through a linear series of phased minihubs and without being as directionless as Vanilla. It was BC but marginally improved with a setting that a percentage of the playerbase was already somewhat attached to (I actually prefer the theme/setting of BC but didn't like what was done with it).
Also, the music was gorgeous.

>>378604416
Having a story helps, but I didn't say it was necessary.

>>378604748
>Wrath endgame outside Ulduar and ICC was shit.
I'm aware. TOTC would have been good too if there weren't already like 3 other single-room raids in the xpac already, with even more to come.
>The zones were built only for flying so they had too much open boring empty space.
What? There was no more wasted/empty space than vanilla zones. Are you sure you're not talking about BC zones there? Because I can see that complaint being valid for those.
>PvP wise it had one thing or another so ridiculously broken it's not even funny
Nothing as broken as rogues/warlocks/warriors-come-tier3
>Content difficulty wise it's the easiest WoW had ever been. For every Storm Peaks great zone we had Zul Drak and Ice Crown which were shit zones. Wrath didn't have encounter mechanics as complex as later WoW but still had the boost to threat, making fights way too simple.
Yeah it was casualized, there's no mistaking that.
I would say that the only actually bad zone was Icecrown. Zul'Drak wasn't exactly my favourite zone in northrend but it has its charm.
The fights were just one iteration more complex than BC, which was one iteration more complex than vanilla's mostly tank'n'spank stuff. I kind of feel like wrath raids relied way too much on just slapping some shit on the ground to avoid but like any other expac it had its share of interesting bosses and its share of boring shite.

>>378605093
Nah, blizzard built upon the sucesses before it, became a big name by offering a polished product without a retarded pay rate unlike most MMOs at the time, at the same time most of the world was just coming online with high speed internet.

I will admit that blizzard offers a highly polished product, but they effectively took the best parts of what came before it, rolled it together, then proceeded to fuck everything up by turning a genre all about large group gameplay into a solo grind fuckfest that MMO fans used to mock korean MMOs for.

>>378602253
How come I couldn't get myself to play it then

>messed up all the armors types like huntresses became completely useless instead of being nerfed
>aint anybody got time to learn the game again
>towers would die in 3 hits and get some gay armor types like horse armor that would trigger my autism
>given I had the patience to still play the game at this point, I realize I have to BUILD a shop or something
>aint nobody got time for that desu
>it gets destroyed in 3 hits if you are defending
>it allows the attacked all kind of cheeses and whatnot
>both give nofun

Basically had already a busy life and wouldn't bother and could see why everyone went to MOBAS

Blizzard is number 1 at making 7.5/10 games that look like 9/10 on the surface.

>>378605364
>all about large group gameplay
I think like 5-10% of vanilla wow went to raids

>>378597086
Yes, frankly people want to debate this when they pull in more money monthly than most companies do yearly. In fact their lowest point for sub numbers right before they stopped reporting during WoD their quarterly on revenue was at it's highest point at 6.5 million players then they were at peak players 13 million during wrath. And they still cleared three times more.

You could debate all you want they fucked up this game or that game, but people are still voting with their wallets and even at their lowest they are still clearing more than their highest points.

>>378604748
>As for non-leveling, especially PvP, you NEVER used fire if you were Frost. Just because you played suboptimally doesn't mean we all did.

Why do people pretend to play vanilla when clearly they never did? I mean, I understand you gotta justify the fact that you're still playing this shit but straight up making stuff up is pretty sad.

>>378597086
Sure. Too bad it's Activision-Blizzard now instead of Blizzard

>>378597086
As far as I can tell the only two games they've fucked up are starcraft and diablo, other than that they're good.

-HotS is easily the best in the genre and it makes it clear they haven't forgotten their past games
-They've kept Warcraft 3 and Diablo 2 updated for modern systems along with the servers
-Overwatch is a breath of fresh air on the multiplayer FPS genre

I wouldn't say Blizzard is a fantastic developer, but they're not bad, and it's clear they still care in some sense of the word.

>>378605338
>That would be bad encounter design then, no? Good thing that modern WoW has far more intricate encounter design than the basic bitch stuff of Vanilla/TBC/Wrath.

What the fuck are you talking about idiot? What does that have to do with the point I just made?

>No you don't!

Yes you do

>a priority system?

Yeah, a priority system where buttons have a priority, AND YOU PRESS THEM IN THAT ORDER

>A variety of talents, trinkets, procs, and secondary class specific resources that all need to be managed that are nothing like vanilla.

All those existed in Vanilla.

> Like seriously, if you have only played Vanilla/TBC, it's VERY different.

I've played every single expansion, I can tell you've only "played" the last 2, and by "played" of course I mean shilled.

>>378605364
WoW has always been a solo grind fuckfest, you just never played at that level during vanilla or bc.
>He doesn't remember the long list of endless buffs for BC raiding that took 6 hours every day after every raid just to min mats for.
And this is not counting still having to go back to scholo for fucking flask.

>>378605364
Its funny you could say this about most things
>Hey the RTS genre is getting popular, lets make our craft series and proceed to make it all about APM and unit spam
>Hey the MMO genre is becoming popular lets take everquest, clean it up, remove the loading screens, then proceed to instance everything to fuck and back and lower raid sizes lower then an average game of COD
>Hey, trading card games are popular, lets make a card game with no trading, and full RNG
>Hey, shooters are popular, lets scrap the MMO we've been trying to make for a decade and turn it into a TF2 clone with no mechanical depth.
>Hey, League of Legends is popular, lets just copy that and remove all items and builds

>>378605086
You really think early Wrath OP as fuck DKs, wizard/beast cleave, end of Wrath Shadowmourne platers was all good balance? Nah fuck that.

Wintergrasp ain't shit compared to Tol Barad in Cata or Timeless Isles in MoP. TB gave access to another damn raid, while TI had stuff like Bloody Coins where you would even be killing your own faction mates as well. WoD had Ashran which also gave a ton of incentives for max level WPvP.

>>378605108
I am talking about the older ignite you dumb fuck, the newer one works totally differently and requires more brains to manage, too.

>>378605551
And for the first 8 or so patches you could do dungeons in raids for loot.

How we convieniently forget about dungeon raids.

>>378605802
>Wintergrasp ain't shit compared to Tol Barad in Cata or Timeless Isles in MoP. TB gave access to another damn raid, while TI had stuff like Bloody Coins where you would even be killing your own faction mates as well. WoD had Ashran which also gave a ton of incentives for max level WPvP.

WG was way way better then all of those zones because when it wasn't a shitty battleground it had resources like the fire elementals to fight over.

You miss the point, open world battlegrounds don't make good PVP, fighting over resources does.

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>>378605802
i'm not sure what's more hilarious, the fact that you're calling baradin hold a raid or that you called it a raid and didn't even know that vaults of archavon exists.

make sure to do some more thorough research on wowwiki before you talk about things you never experienced.

>>378605268
>using POM Pyro as a FROST MAGE
>Using Fireblast after lvl 20
>thinks priorities is the same as rotations
>thinks a mage should be able to do everything and thinks useless older abilities should still be there
Are you mentally fucking retarded?
>>378605696
>What the fuck are you talking about idiot? What does that have to do with the point I just made?
Portal's level design is part of its encounter design, you stupid idiot.

>Yeah, a priority system where buttons have a priority, AND YOU PRESS THEM IN THAT ORDER
>All those existed in Vanilla.
You haven't played post-Cataclysm WoW at all if you think any of it makes even a fraction of as much difference.

You are literally trying to argue that player tactics/direct player interaction isn't the main part of gameplay. I am not sure how to deal with someone as idiotic as you.

>>378605802
>requires more brains to manage, too.

fucking lol, I tried the new Arcane rotation, it's completely braindead shit. You have 4 spells and press them in that order. 1-2-2-2-3-4

That's exactly how vanilla was, except you know, things like stats and gear mattered as well. Now they don't. I guess the game was too hard for some people.

>>378606114
>Not using fire blast, one of the only skills a mage had which was instant in vanilla

t. retard

>thinks a mage should be able to do everything and thinks useless older abilities should still be there

Name a single "useless" ability.

>>378606114
>Portal's level design is part of its encounter design, you stupid idiot.

Why the fuck do you keep saying encounter? What the fuck do you think it means? Do you actually work for Blizzard PR?

>>378604703
>Overwatch
>Heroes of the Storm
>WoW
>fuck ups
Pick one

>>378606114
>Portal's level design is part of its encounter design, you stupid idiot.

lol what

>>378606310
>tf2 clone
>ASSFAGGOTS
>anything but fuck ups

pick three

>>378605985
>resources like the fire elemental
Yeah, and those other ones have a lot more resources/incentives for the player to fight for.

>>378606095
Both BH and VOA are raids. BH was much more important to Cata though since at some points just running BH would be preferable before tackling HC dungeons. VOA is useless in Wrath because Naxx is already so braindead.

>>378606114
>thinks a mage should be able to do everything and thinks useless older abilities should still be there

Yes absolutely. You'd understand why if you knew what an RPG was.

>>378606390
>tf2 clone
Farthest thing from the truth, the only reason you spout this is because it's the /v/ hivemind

>>378606114
>You are literally trying to argue that player tactics/direct player interaction isn't the main part of gameplay.

No, you're trying to argue that rotation mechanics are the most important part of gameplay.

>>378606478

It's literally a TF2 clone.

>Team based FPS
>objective based FPS
>cartoony graphics
>cartoony characters
>characters fill a certain role in the team
>team size is small
>hats
>came out suspiciously after Blizzard/Valve DoTA ownership suit was settled in Valve's favor

>>378605802
>You really think early Wrath OP as fuck DKs, wizard/beast cleave, end of Wrath Shadowmourne platers was all good balance? Nah fuck that.
That guy never said anything about balance. Anyway, DKs (and by extension paladins) had counters that could reliably shut them down: if you silenced them they were screwed. The problem is that they were tanky enough that they were tough to kill during silence duration and would just burst all the squishies around them when it wore off. This was caused pretty heavily by resilience gear giving too much extra survivability making the problem by extension not so much a class balance problem but a game balance problem.
vanilla warlocks were far worse than any of the things you're mentioning here except for shadowmourne with their infinite fear and stupid survivability between drain life, skillcoil and VW sac, and warriors in T3 with the mace of menethil (or whatever it's called, drops from KT) far eclipsed the shit you can do with shadowmourne.

Anyway, arena is shit and you shouldn't play it in the first place.

>>378606478
both of them are class based fps games which revolve around obtaining microtransactions, the only real differences between them is that overwatch removed resource management and has waifu bait

>>378606117
The Arcane rotation isn't the Fire rotation you retard. I was clearly talking about Ignites.

>stats and gear don't matter
Oh, you are a troll.

>>378606261
>USING FIRE BLAST INSTEAD OF COC
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA holy shit how do you guys not know how to play the game you dickride so much?

>Name a single "useless" ability.
Alter time's utility as a movement skill becoming obsolete due to Ice Floes.

>>378606290
No, I am trying to talk more open ended in games in general. Level design for example isn't that good in Devil May Cry games, but they aren't part of the encounter mechanics, the enemies are.

>>378606381
Read DMC comparison above.

>>378606423
You're still missing the point.

Shitty open world BGs don't make for good open world PVP.

The rewards were more incentivized to unlock BH or run Assram? Sure, that didn't make them fun or interesting as most servers it just became a population ruled clusterfuck.

>>378607007
>The Arcane rotation isn't the Fire rotation you retard. I was clearly talking about Ignites.

Who cares you dickhead, it's all the same shit, the point is that it's as brainless as it ever was

>>378607007
>No, I am trying to talk more open ended in games in general. Level design for example isn't that good in Devil May Cry games, but they aren't part of the encounter mechanics, the enemies are.

Why do you keep saying encounter? Answer me

>>378603518
Reminder that Wrath didn't have Raid Finder until past-mid expansion because Activision forced them to make something for casuals and that was the reason they never finished a ton of shit in that expa.

>>378607007
Alter time was one of the most critical cooldowns in a mage's arsenal and a good one could affect your DPS significantly throughout the entirety of MoP.

Fire Blast and CoC are not interchangable as one of them was a melee range AoE and the other was a ranged single target nuke, and both were used concurrently with great frequency.

You're just shitposting at this point, it's sad.

>>378597206
Dont forget Rareware N64 era.

>>378606470
>You'd understand why if you knew what an RPG was.
This is a vague meaningless statement. I just made a point in my other posts about having ability bloat of abilities that won't be in use. Please post something more substantial and actually related to video games.

>>378606553
I made a very clear distinction that this is not all of what I am saying in the very beginning when I first starting responding to you, wtf? Like how fucking stupid are you to not notice I am talking about player tactics/interactions in the game world?

There's no way someone as immature as you would've been old enough to play Vanilla.

>>378607007
>AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA holy shit how do you guys not know how to play the game you dickride so much?

>cone of cold
>having the same range as fireblast
>not using both

lmao you didn't play vanilla did you

>Alter time's utility as a movement skill becoming obsolete due to Ice Floes.

You didn't address his point at all

>>378606823
>Team based FPS
Quake did it before TF2
>objective based FPS
Counter Strike existed before TF2
>cartoony graphics
You have no idea what that word means, TF2 and Overwatch's art-styles are completely different
>cartoony characters
See above
>characters fill a certain role in the team
Yeah. Damage, defense, and support.
TF2 didn't invent those roles
>team size is small
and TF2 team sizes can be massive
>hats
Irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the game itself
>came out suspiciously after Blizzard/Valve DoTA ownership suit was settled in Valve's favor
Another irrelevant point

>>378606873
see above

>>378600915
>muh gimmicks

>>378598613
>every fantasy setting ever copied Tolkien

>>378600915
Yeah, like taking 5 years to actually finish it and then charge you for it

Only for it to pull a shit tier ending that was only blown over because ME3's was so bad people were still making fun of it at that point.

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>>378603518
Don't forget tiered raid difficulties.

Things like 3 drake and Ulduar hardmodes were the right way to go. They just took the less inventive route.

>>378607352

Holy shit you're stupid. You think greentexting each point is how you should be addressing this argument?

Let me point out to you that it's the combination of those criteria that makes them the same. Only TF2 and Overwatch fit ALL those criteria, so you can shove your autistic nitpicking up your arse.

>>378607290
>This is a vague meaningless statement.

It's not meaningless, you're just too stupid and myopic to understand it.

Let me ask you, why would a MAGE not have an extremely long repetoire of spells?

>>378607645
Ulduar was the original dev teams last hoorah before they ran off to not make titan, watcher and ghostcucker were in charge for TOC and ICC afterwards

>>378607352
>You have no idea what that word means, TF2 and Overwatch's art-styles are completely different

pfffthahahaha

>>378607649
>If it's not what I want to hear it's nitpicking and doesn't work!
Fuck right off, pcbro.
>inb4 "I'M NOT A VALVEDRONE!!!!!!"
If you weren't then you wouldn't be trying so desperately to say your orange is better than an apple

>>378607864
Mocking me doesn't make it go away

>>378607290
>I am talking about player tactics/interactions in the game world?

you say that but in the end your argument just comes down to how "complex" rotations are now. That's why I previously pointed out all the other aspects of "gameplay" that you didn't seem to care about.

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>They turned rage into a bar that built up based on damage taken and delt into a generic MOBA style power bar that generates based on moves used to spend on a finisher

>They turned mana into blue energy

>They gave shamans and shadow priests the same bar as nu-warriors too

>>378607352
Is Quake a game that is
>A team based FPS
>Objective based FPS
>With Damage, Defense, and Support roles
>Cartoony artstyle

How about Counter Strike? What about the game that did invent Damage, Defense, and Support roles?

Strange, it almost seems like all of these things mixed together to create a team based FPS are unique to Overwatch and TF2.

>Microtransactions which are central to development focus aren't a part of the game

t. retard

>>378607929
>>If it's not what I want to hear it's nitpicking and doesn't work!

wow you really are stupid. Maybe you should try reading my whole post next time.

>>378597086
it's not, it's trash

>>378606869
>vanilla warlocks were far worse than any of the things you're mentioning here
Dude...on release DKs were literally broken. That one frost shield/armor thing was MUCH stronger than it was supposed to be, giving them an absurd edge. You didn't make any mention of the wizard cleave which is no platers yet still annoyingly OP in most of Wrath until Shadowmourne platers.

>>378607059
Nigga then it isn't WPvP. You wanna BG, stick to that instead then.

>>378607060
Lmao what? Not it's not. Hell, actually I just realized that Arcane in Legion isn't the Arcane that's been there since Wrath, it's not a four button but like an 8 button priority. It's actually less braindead than ever because Arcane used to be only 2-3 buttons because of how much timing mattered, but the same timing stuff is there but with more mechanics to manage.

>>378607128
I literally did. Stop wasting my time.

>>378607247
Alter time's main purpose was as a movement based ability. That's why things got changed the way they did.

>Fire Blast and CoC are not interchangable as one of them was a melee range AoE and the other was a ranged single target nuke, and both were used concurrently with great frequency.
...really? Like do you seriously not see a person greatly geared into frost damage wanting to use CoC 99.999% of the time? You think that Blink doesn't exist? Stop embarrassing yourself.

>when the only good team of devs in blizzard are working on the ASSFAGGOT game
/hotsg/ ww@?

>>378607352
>Quake did it before TF2
Quake doesn't have cartoony graphics
>Counter Strike existed before TF2
Counter Strike doesn't have cartoony graphics or characters that fill a certain role in the team
>You have no idea what that word means, TF2 and Overwatch's art-styles are completely different
I think everyone reading this knows what "cartoony" means
>Yeah. Damage, defense, and support.
TF2 didn't invent those roles
Yeah but it is the only cartoony team based FPS with those, other than Overwatch of course :^)
>and TF2 team sizes can be massive
But obviously the maps are balanced to those small team sizes

>>378608192
>I literally did. Stop wasting my time.

No you didn't. Answer me, why do you keep using the word "encounter"?

>>378607341
>lmao you didn't play vanilla did you
Read my other post where I replied to the first guy who said this. Endgame CoC is always the better option due to talents and gear into Frost.

>You didn't address his point at all
I did. An older move became obsolete due to a newer move, so older move doesn't exist anymore. Similar thing happened to stance dancing because any of us warriors who knew what we were doing had macros making the mechanic pointless.

>>378607784
I asked you to post something actually about video games. If you don't understand how ability bloat can exist in an old ass game like this, stfu.

>>378608017
>you say that but in the end your argument just comes down to how "complex" rotations are now.
Now...how many times did I use the phrase encounter mechanics? Yet how did it still not go through your head? Hell, if you have played modern WoW as you claim to have, you should know that heroic/mythic encounters for example are much more complex than the stuff of the old.

>>378606869
>warriors in T3 with the mace of menethil (or whatever it's called, drops from KT) far eclipsed the shit you can do with shadowmourne.
All of, what, 30 people in the game had that mace on their warriors. Over a thousand times that had Shadowmourne.

>>378608456
One last time. Different games have different obstacles to pass through. Anon uses Portal as a level design example, when the encounters built in that game are based off the level design. not every game is like that (DMC3 being an example.) Now fuck off, I am getting sick of having to elaborate the most basic things to idiots like you.

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>>378600041

>>378608192
>Lmao what? Not it's not.

Yes it is.

>press buttons in order
>DPS comes out

> it's not a four button but like an 8 button priority.

I can see you don't actually play. It's Arcane blast, arcane missiles and arcane barrage. That's 3 buttons mate.

>more mechanics to manage.

Like what?

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No, it's a development team full of talentless hacks who made three decent at best games and then fell flat on their face when they tried to make sequels. They might be financially successful but that doesn't mean their games aren't trash.

>>378608192
>Dude...on release DKs were literally broken.
Dude...on release warlocks were literally broken, and stayed that way up until WotLK launched.

I don't need to say shit about an arena meme when the game should never have based anything around arenas in the first place. Who the fuck plays an MMO so they can play an imbalanced MOBA?

>>378608672
>Different games have different obstacles to pass through. Anon uses Portal as a level design example, when the encounters

STOP

RIGHT HERE

WHY DID YOU USE THE WORD "ENCOUNTERS"

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK IT MEANS

ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION

pcbro

>>378608192
Alter time was a DPS cooldown that could be used in a multitude of ways. It got removed because it involved depth.

>...really? Like do you seriously not see a person greatly geared into frost damage wanting to use CoC 99.999% of the time? You think that Blink doesn't exist? Stop embarrassing yourself.

Once again, they are not mutually exclusive and mages had a very limited arsenal of instant cast spells back then. Flame Blast was one of the most used abilities in Vanilla PvP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_OoUNtunIw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgV-FPWuWQk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRWwcyx3m1k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyeoT1owdFo

Go ahead and look at literally ANY vanilla mage PvP video and you will see that all of them extensively use flame blast.

>>378608821
Even in a simpler version, you'er still using Arcane Power, Nether Tempest, and Supernova at least along with those three. Not to mention that there's the difference between burn/conserve priorities for Arcane Power, placing Runes/renewing them when moving, CDs, etc.

>>378608603
It was an extreme example. Even warriors with gear from earlier Naxx bosses or from AQ were far more powerful relative to other classes than they were at any point in Wrath.

Granted, that might just be because of the progression system of wrath meaning almost everyone not in quest blues were in gear equivalent to the previous raid/pvp tier.

>>378608562
>Endgame CoC is always the better option due to talents and gear into Frost.

Are you fucking stupid? Why don't you read HIS response to this?

>Fire Blast and CoC are not interchangable as one of them was a melee range AoE and the other was a ranged single target nuke, and both were used concurrently with great frequency.

>I did.

You did not. He asked you to name a single useless ability. In Vanilla. You can't name passive procs from a later expansion as evidence for a useless skill from a previous expansion.

>>378597272
*flick* *flick* *flick* *flick* *flick* *flick* *flick* *flick* *flick* *flick* *flick* *flick* *flick* *flick* *flick* *flick*

>>378608562
>Hell, if you have played modern WoW as you claim to have, you should know that heroic/mythic encounters for example are much more complex than the stuff of the old.

But you didn't explain how it makes it better.

They make really fun, quality games. Their problem is they're jews, they suck at balancing, and their stories really went downhill after WC3

>>378609093
>Arcane Power, Nether Tempest, and Supernova

Cooldowns and talents don't count as part of the core rotation.

>>378608908
>Dude...on release warlocks were literally broken, and stayed that way up until WotLK launched.
No they weren't. Hell, Locks didn't even get good in Vanilla until AQ. Fuck making Demo survival lock before that.

>Who the fuck plays an MMO so they can play an imbalanced MOBA?
The "serious" PvP players of those oh so great glory days of Wrath of the Shit King.

>>378608914
Oh, so you're trolling me. Props for getting me to bite this hard.

>>378608954
>posts videos that have a couple uses of FB vs COC 99% of the time
>m-muh extensive use of FB

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>>378597086
Bear with me, this is going to be long.

I don't like Blizzard as a developer nor do I like their games, but holy shit do I admire them as a corporation for their absolute greediness, and griping business strategies taking advantage of their retarded fagbois. Literally the sniveling creep at the back of the room watching as everyone is trying to one up each other by creating new content and all Blizzard does is steal those ideas and makes fucking MILLIONS by doing it better than them. Have to admit, gotta love the fucking geniuses behind Blizzard.

>Doesn't even have a truly unique IP that isn't a ripoff of something else. They're motto as a company literally is just copying everyone else, but simply doing it better before they have a chance and cucking their IPs.
>Games Workshop, being the faggots that they are, didn't take advantage of the booming vidya market. So Blizzard came along, ripped their entire IPs from Warhammer Fantasy and 40K, make almost a copy+paste version of each game even taking the Orcs from WHFB and the Tyranids from 40K into Zergs, doing some changes and stealing their fanbase. Everyone hopped on their train before GW even had a chance to take off on an early start.

(1/3)

>>378609523
>Oh, so you're trolling me. Props for getting me to bite this hard.

No I just want you to explain why you keep using the word "encounters". Why is this so difficult for you to do? Are you mentally retarded?

>>378609523
In the first video, a naxx geared frost mage uses flame blast 14 times within the first 3 clips.

It's time to stop posting.

>>378609604
>Everquest was doing phenomenally well, but it wasn't breaking grounds due to some complexities of the system, the horrible grind, etc. Blizzard saw this, literally make an Everquest copy, implement what every wanted (questing), and having no "what the fuck do I do now" downtimes which was one of the complaints people had with MMOs like DAoC and AO, and cucking Sony even destroying EQ2.
>Make a game that is a blatant fucking copy of TF2 and even fails in comparison due to limited everything. Paladins was originally supposed to be the progenitor of Hero shooters, they even announced their game a year before Blizzard's Overwatch. Since Blizzard has the money and the resources to make any game they want, they knew all they needed to do was rush Overwatch development, copy some elements from Paladins' development, and release it sooner than them. Now everyone considers Blizzard's Overwatch the progenitor of Hero Shooters, and Paladins as a fucking shameless copycat benching on Overwatch's fame.

(2/3)

>>378609523

>says that nobody used FB in vanilla past lvl 20
>gets proven wrong
>I-It d-doesn't count!

rofl

>>378609694
>As a ridiculously successful video game company, they sure do lack a retarded amount of IPs like some of the other companies for example EA and Ubisoft. They don't need to, Blizzard likes to bide their time and steal content when they see the opportunity. When they strike, they strike big and make a shitload of money from idiots.

Keep at it Blizzard, keep leeching off these idiots. Fucking loving it.

(3/3)

Blizzard was good until Trial of the Crusader, which marked WoW's transition from being an actual MMO. It became "sit at the argent tournament and spam dungeons to get free Tier 9 to have you sk ip our other 3 core raids, while using our express dungeon and raid where you dont have to go anywhere or clear trash"

Couple that with WoW killing the concept of MMOs by making it all endgame oriented bullshit, and the rise of online communities turning every challenge, quest or boss fight into a condensed 2 minute video or a page on wowhead. The mystery disappeared from WoW in WOTLK. Elitistjerks and wowhead became core sources of knowledge for every player and wannabe raider while flying ruined the feeling of a big world to explore.


Diablo 3 lost the lustre of Diablo 2, but I chalk that more up to the lack of classes and skills.

StarCraft 2 was the last of a dying genre that was bound to fail since it came out before the esports glory period we're currently in and is in the shitty position that fighting games are where its a high technical skill requirement matched with a primarily 1v1 match format.

Overwatch is a mediocre TF2 that has no where near the impact TF2 had at its time of release, and has an already decaying esports scene.

Hearthstone is an extremely low skill game that is only getting by on how good everything otuside of its gameplay is.

>>378609523
>No they weren't. Hell, Locks didn't even get good in Vanilla until AQ
Holy shit dude are you kidding? Infinite fear was never ever not good, period. If anything it only got less effective as raid tiers got higher purely because the only viable counter to fear, warriors, got stronger and more capable of actually killing the lock in the duration of that ability that made them immune to fear.

>>378609217
>Are you fucking stupid? Why don't you read HIS response to this?
I did, and I answered it.

> He asked you to name a single useless ability. In Vanilla.
>In Vanilla
No he did not. He asked me to give any example period. There's no reason I can't name a passive that helps serve similar functions. You're moving his goalpost for no real reason.

>>378609320
More engaging gameplay = better game. As simple as that. A warlock spamming Banish on Garr mobs isn't engaging with the game as much as one that's trying to stop Gul'dan's Soul Well.

>>378609431
Great, and Nether Tempest and I also forgot AE don't have CDs. Neither do Runes technically.

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>>378609779
Forgot the most important point.

>Blizzard themselves invented some of the most absolute dickish schemes imaginable in their online games, which companies are now trying to copy too. Created the first singleplayer online only video game Diablo 3, Blizzard can't into game-balance because Blizzard is purposefully unbalancing their games to generate continual interest through patches and making people come back, make pretend media hysteria to generate interest and let people do the promoting "we don't want lewd Overwatch SFMs and we're mad at Tracer's butt" only making niggers doing it tenfold, and every one of the events from games like WoW to Overwatch are basically a money stifling schemes like cutting events short and limiting items to those events so players are forced to spend hundreds of dollars if they want to obtain said items https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/05/24/there-are-not-enough-hours-in-the-day-to-grind-for-overwatch-anniversary-skins/#3ecf5ffe7628

>>378610270
>I did, and I answered it.

No, you didn't answer it. You responded by again using the word. Not once have you defined what it means. I'm asking you to define the word.

>>378609793
>StarCraft 2 was the last of a dying genre that was bound to fail since it came out before the esports glory period we're currently in and is in the shitty position that fighting games are where its a high technical skill requirement matched with a primarily 1v1 match format.


SC2 also suffers from the fact that it is one of the worst strategy games ever made.

Or are we going to excuse the fact that 90% of the games don't go past the 5-10 minute mark because everyone uses an all in cheese strategy that has a larger winrate then it deserves to have in said genre, not allowing the game to progress past a certain point where race imbalance becomes glaring.

>>378609684
He uses it a couple times for it to be resisted every time. I wonder why...

>>378609751
Well, the FB literally gets resisted, so yeah it literally didn't count!

>>378610053
Infinite fear is it though. Being a PvP Lock was suffering because your main damage output could've been so easily gimped by dispelling DoTs and curses. Fearing as much as you want is a trap.

>>378609694
You forgot to mention in this one the same shit that happened in Paladins vs Overwatch: They took things from EQ2's beta to put directly into WoW. The biggest and most overt example is the HUD.

>>378610270
>More engaging gameplay = better game.

Like I've already tried to make clear to you, game mechanics=/=gameplay. A 5-button rotation is no more engaging than a 3 button rotation, because you're doing exactly the same thing, just more often.

>A warlock spamming Banish on Garr mobs isn't engaging with the game as much as one that's trying to stop Gul'dan's Soul Well.

You can dress it up with colorful language as much as you want, it's still exactly the same. It's engaging the first time, but every time after that it becomes a chore. The difference lies in the rest of the gameplay, the stuff that makes you want to play the game more than once.

>>378610661
>Well, the FB literally gets resisted, so yeah it literally didn't count!
>He uses it a couple times for it to be resisted every time. I wonder why...
Stop shitposting

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>>378597086
Blizzard charges you 10 bucks to change your name.

They can go fuck themselves.

>>378610270
>Great, and Nether Tempest and I also forgot AE don't have CDs

They're talents

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>>378610661
>First clip after the intro at 1:38
>It's used 4 times and resisted once
>CoC is used 2 times

you're literally arguing with video evidence why would anyone do something like this

>>378609217
>He asked you to name a single useless ability. In Vanilla.
Not him, nor do I care if this conversation is solely about Magi, but JoJ was overall pointless. In fact, JoJ was especially useless in PvP.

>>378610661
>Infinite fear is it though. Being a PvP Lock was suffering because your main damage output could've been so easily gimped by dispelling DoTs and curses. Fearing as much as you want is a trap.
>waah waah pvp warlocks sucked because our damage was low despite that fact that we could completely take 1 (or 2 if you're using succubus) person out of the fight
>never mind that we're borderline unbeatable in 1v1 contexts aka the only time class balance really even mattered in vanilla pvp
you're right how could anyone play a warlock with such grave inconveniences?

>>378611059

He's shilling for Blizzard, did you expect some modicum of intelligence?

>>378610713
>game mechanics=/=gameplay
I said more engaging gameplay though. Not game mechanics. yes I used mechanics themselves as an example, but what's more important is their outward effect.

>A 5-button rotation is no more engaging than a 3 button rotation, because you're doing exactly the same thing, just more often.
Case in point, right here where the outward in game effect of the 5 button rotation is much different from the 3 button one.

Since there isn't as much in game activity happening at once in earlier WoW, it's much harder to fuck up straightforward rotations, but in modern WoW it's a completely different story.

>It's engaging the first time, but every time after that it becomes a chore.
Well, in the older raids yeah that's how it felt. But it's not so much a chore if it's fun, no? Just like a platformer with actual platforms is more fun than a platformer with no platforms, a WoW raid/dungeon where the player is given more responsibility creates a more fun game as well.

>>378611109
>made travel form useless for druids

not quite

>>378611129
>you're right how could anyone play a warlock with such grave inconveniences?

Not that guy but I played a warlock on alliance and it was terrible. Fuck WotF

>>378611232
Except it gets removed when they shapeshift. Also involved having a 20s seal up, being in melee range of the druid and using a move that was global cooldown.

Only thing that was worse, now that I remember it, was old JoComm.

>>378611129
>1v1
>The only time balanced mattered
>in an MMO
No.

Vanilla WOW's balance was not based around 1v1, or rogues wouldn't have been so broken 1v1 yet paper vs groups.

>>378611109
>but JoJ was overall pointless
It prevented the fucking murlocs from running and aggroing the rest of the camp so its basiclly the third most important spell a paladin had besides his bubble and his hearthstone.

>But you could just HoJ them when they're running!
Oh nice, a 60 second cooldown that i used during the fight as an interrupt, that I can't kill the creature in because lolpallydamage.

>>378611042
And they are still part of optimal DPS for Arcane Mage. Not counting them is moving your own goalpost. Hell, that's kinda what you did you with "only muh core rotation" as well.

You're really trying to reach here in order to look right, but you keep fucking up.

>>378611059
Because you can see in the same video how in effective it is? Like shit dude you don't need 20/20 eyesight to see those resists.

>>378611129
>you're right how could anyone play a warlock with such grave inconveniences?
Yup, especially since people that actually knew how to PvP knew exactly how to circumvent most of this shit. It's kinda why nobody's rolling Warlock on Elysium atm either.

>>378611408
shapeshift didn't remove it, neither did blessing of freedom or vanish for rogues. it didn't count as a movement impairing ability and was pretty legit in WSG.

you got me on jocomm

>>378611191
>I said more engaging gameplay though.

Yeah, and I told you you're using that word incorrectly.

>Case in point, right here where the outward in game effect of the 5 button rotation is much different from the 3 button one.

There isn't though, the effect is the same - more DPS

But it's not so much a chore if it's fun, no?

But it's not fun, because as I have said a million times, and for some reason you don't understand yet, pressing more buttons is not more engaging or deep, it's just another chore. You press button, damage comes out. It's the same as it ever was. Except of course, there used to be buttons that did something besides make numbers come out. Then they took those away, so actually, the game has less depth than before.

>WoW raid/dungeon where the player is given more responsibility creates a more fun game as well.

Not if the entire focus of the game is changed to be a DDR simulator.

>>378611628
>Because you can see in the same video how in effective it is? Like shit dude you don't need 20/20 eyesight to see those resists.

it was resisted one of four times and accounted for one of his kills in that clip

why are you doing this? what point is there in it?

>>378611628
>And they are still part of optimal DPS for Arcane Mage. Not counting them is moving your own goalpost. Hell, that's kinda what you did you with "only muh core rotation" as well.

Not really, because buttons you press once every 30 seconds don't fit into your idea of more engaging gameplay. You're still only pressing 3 buttons in a sequence.

>>378611484
Quote what I said right instead of selectively reading.
>1v1 contexts aka the only time class balance really even mattered in vanilla pvp
In any other context the answer is to "bring more friends". Obviously the game isn't balanced around 1v1s because very few class balance complaints are valid outside of it. The answer to any complaint that "x is too strong" is to simply CC chain with your friends which works on any class in the game.

>>378600915

Proof you havent fucking played RTS, or your knowledge of RTS is "command and conquer and warcraft"

Original War, RoboRumble, Dominant Species...fuck man even Homeworld...or to a lesser extent dawn of war 1...fucking ridiculously more diverse than SC2's campaign.

>>378611628
>Because you can see in the same video how in effective it is? Like shit dude you don't need 20/20 eyesight to see those resists.

Are you trying to imply that those spells were resisted because he was frost specced?

>>378611628
>Yup, especially since people that actually knew how to PvP knew exactly how to circumvent most of this shit
How then?
inb4 fear ward

>>378597086


tft is the last good game they made, and even that's a stretch.

their best games arent even made by them (diablo 1, diablo 2 - both blizzard north)

war2/war3 were very good
sc:bw was incredible

but everything'ds been shit.

>>378611628
>It's kinda why nobody's rolling Warlock on Elysium atm either.

Horde is full of warlocks you dopey cunt

>>378612096
shit disregard I misinterpreted
People don't play warlock on elysium because they're undesirable in raids, making gear tough to get for them. Besides, there were plenty when I played for about a month after it came back up.

Blizzard is the Blizzard of game developers.

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>>378612096
by being undead

>>378612208
>People don't play warlock on elysium because they're undesirable in raids, making gear tough to get for them.

How the fuck are they undesirable in raids?

>>378610601
This

SC2 comes out, everyone tries to emulate it for their RTS games and kills the genre.

Meanwhile the strategy game players all go back to 4x games.

after hearthstone, overwatch, and hots they're not even close to being in the top ten

maybe in the d2/sc:bw/war3 days they were up there but those are long gone, at the moment they are literally konami/ubi/EA tier and would do the gaming industry so much good if they sold all their IPs and just fucked off to the low effort casual mobile cashgrab zone they so desperately seem to be pining for

>>378612294
Don't they have sub-par damage? Or is it just that their damage is tied to the limited debuffs on the boss? I'm not too sure because warlocks were only a problem for me in PvP so where they sat in PvE was never something I cared too much about.

>>378612520
>Don't they have sub-par damage? Or is it just that their damage is tied to the limited debuffs on the boss?

Why the fuck are you talking about things you don't know about?

>summon
>banish
>healthstone
>soulstone

>useless in MC

>>378611717
The end is the same yeah, but getting there is a different story altogether. Like shit I don't get why you have your panties in a bunch about this. There's a huge difference between a game where you kill people in one strike of your sword and one where you gotta combo to kill them.

>Except of course, there used to be buttons that did something besides make numbers come out. Then they took those away, so actually, the game has less depth than before.
You mean like the variety of CDs, utilities and fun moves like the DH floating thing they have? Your revisionist "we used all these utilities all the time man!" garbage is false.

>Not if the entire focus of the game is changed to be a DDR simulator.
Pressing more buttons with the player being more engaged with the game = DDR simulator. Fucking amazing logic there.

>>378611860
>why are you doing this? what point is there in it?
Point being that it's suboptimal period.

>>378611943
But they count into the overall mechanics related to the multiphases of an Arcane mage which makes for a less straightforward priority system.

>>378612092
Considering you had gear a certain way in Vanilla to ensure stuff isn't resisting you 24/7, yeah partly talents partly gear.

>>378612096
Outside WoTF and FW? Insignia. Berserker Rage. But for actual circumvention, just attack the damn Warlock they were squishy until AQ gear made fat Demo viable.

>>378612829
>Point being that it's suboptimal period.

Again, you're contradicting direct evidence. Flame blast is a staple of Vanilla PvP.

I'm starting to think you're a woman, only a female would deny reality so aggressively.

>>378612617
Undesirable =/= useless
All of those things are achievable by 1 or 2 warlocks, except that one boss in MC I think.

>>378612829
>Considering you had gear a certain way in Vanilla to ensure stuff isn't resisting you 24/7, yeah partly talents partly gear.

So is it gear that's making FB useless or talents? which ones? Point them out to me. Point out to me which gear specifically makes frost spells have a higher chance to hit, or which talents make only frost spells have a higher chance to hit.

>>378612898

Are you retarded? Once you have 40 clued in people with pre-raid BIS, the damage output of a particular class is no longer an important factor. MC on elysium is being cleared in under an hour by the fastest groups. Do you think anyone gives a shit about "sub-optimal" DPS on 10 year old raids that are being cleared in 60 minutes? Especially when said classes bring important utilities to the raid that make everything a lot easier, especially Garr? No nigga, they don't, and I think you shouldn't be talking shit about things you know nothing about.

>>378612897
Yet did you see how low his damage output was even when he used it? He used scorch to low output as well. It's garbage.

>>378613331
They did when I played. The game was fucking full of minmaxing autists who didn't want any suboptimal DPS classes because they were told they were shit. If things are better now then fuckin' sweet.
How does this matter, again?

>>378597086
>recently start playing diablo 3 out of boredom
>actually kinda like
>that makes 4 games on the launcher that I actually enjoy
>4 out of 6 ain't bad
Yeah, I think OP's prob right.

>>378612829
>The end is the same yeah, but getting there is a different story altogether.
No, you only get there by pressing a few more buttons. Stop acting like they turned this into a different genre, it's the exact same shit just with more buttons to appeal to autists who only care about pressing buttons in exactly the same sequence.

>You mean like the variety of CDs, utilities and fun moves like the DH floating thing they have?

DH are the only fun part of Legion. Not really worth it though.

>>378613397
You're directly contradicting video evidence again. Fire blast was hitting for nearly a fourth of people's life if not more and was used very frequently because it was a great skill. This is silly but I'm going to keep replying because I'm easily entertained.

>>378613397
>Yet did you see how low his damage output was even when he used it?

It's more than if he didn't use it, retard.

>>378613397
>did you see how low his damage output was even when he used it

Who talks like this? Are you the same cunt who described level design as "encounters"? I'm starting to think you're some pajeet sitting in a cubicle in Delhi

>>378602798
It's true for me, at least.

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>>378613678
>DH are the only fun part of Legion. Not really worth it though.
Nobdoy I know that plays DH seriously likes how they play right now.

>>378613040
Gear of course. I don't remember gear specifics because I am not an autist that still remembers everything Vanilla.

>>378613678
I am not going to repeat myself.

>>378612520
Actually during Vanilla, Warlocks after ZG were the strongest class next to rogues and druids. Warlocks are the only cloth class that has been able to successfully tank an actual 40 man raid AQ. Since that point Warlocks spiraled down, however during BC they did the most damage in the game via shadow bolt proc spamming and life tap and with BC still being resistance based they destroyed people with stupid bullshit.
However their damage is one of the highest overall through Vanilla and BC with they being the main dps in BC and could tank better than tanks in vanilla if geared correctly.

>>378612520
bosses had a max amount of debuffs they could have at one time so if you were the lucky lock that got a raidspot it was ok
if not you spammed shadowbolt and cried as all the gear got funneled to the lock who actually did shit

>>378614553
>Gear of course. I don't remember gear specifics because I am not an autist that still remembers everything Vanilla.

Right

So what you're saying is, FB is useless because that person doesn't have enough +hit on his gear? Wouldn't that make the rest of his spells just as useless?

>I am not an autist that still remembers everything Vanilla.

You're an autist that remembers nothing about vanilla.

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>>378614770
>and druids.
at what

>>378614553
>I am not going to repeat myself.

That's good, I was tired of hearing your shitty arguments repeated Ad nauseam too.

>>378614509
>Nobdoy I know that plays DH seriously likes how they play right now.

Obviously, but they were fun to level with and fuck around with

>>378597086
It's people that make a company special. Most of the special people are long gone from Blizzard.

>>378597272
>overwatch
>good

>>378614985
Druids with best in slot had the best overall skill set, an actually good druid could kill any class hands down. They also had the single best weapon in the game during Vanilla Naxx, however good luck getting it over another clothie which it's actually garbage for. The best iteration of that staff is the druid version. It spikes your damage modifier higher than anyone else in the game period during vanilla.
They also could do the following such as
Kill world boss elites with infinite root.
Farm the back of Wintergrasp and Hyjal without moving. Essentially making them a must have in your party if you're a warlock trying to get your doomguard spell during that time.
Heals for days, one of the best healers at the time.
Highest HP.
Jack of all trades, has rogue, priest, warrior abilities wrapped into one. Slap yourself stacking Engineering and Alchemy with the Skull of Impending Doom switching and you were unstoppable. Anyone who threatened your place also you could literally pop all boost and run at 200% for 15 seconds basically clearing across plaguelands in that time and no one not even an epic mount would fucking catch you at the time, because you had to summon your fucking mount.

>>378615650
Yeah, "good" is a bit of an understatement. A game of Overwatch's caliber is rare indeed.

>>378604386
You really need to shut the hell up now

>>378597869
Everyone need my money but atleas blizzard delivers were everyone else not. I'm fine with paying for entertainment.

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>>378598613
>>378598956
>Blizzard spends the entirety of their beginnings being the equivalent of stifling little cretins either copy+pasting an IP before a company has a chance to get into the industry, or coming up with a plan to just copy everyone else's good idea and adding the stuff people want at time where everybody is trying to be innovative.
>A couple of mod creaters make one of the most popular mods of their time and decide to branch out and make a franchise of their own out of Blizzard assets due to the mod's popularity.
>Blizzard completely shits themselves.
>Blizzard gets into a huge custody battle with Valve for DOTA 2, calling it """A crusade to protect the intellectual property of the players (as long as we own it)"""
>After losing the case Blizzard gets so assblasted that they start rewriting copyright laws so something like this never happens again. http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/forum/general/blizzards-copyrights-have-gone-to-far-17025

Why do you niggers like Blizzard again?

Why are blizzkiddyshitters so delusional?

>>378617257
>Why do you niggers like Blizzard again?
the games are fun

sorry, the games were fun

>>378597086
their biggest mistake was losing dota to valve

>>378597086
> blizz
> good
> only one good game released since fucking brood war
> its brood war remastered