>no vidyagame has ever surpassed the plot and storytelling

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I'm guessing you have never played Dear Esther

>>377228495
The voice acting alone is some of the best to ever grace your ears.
One day though, The Legacy of Kain games will be gently dethroned by a worthy successor.

Besides, the game went balls to the wall retarded at the end unless I missed something and there are now two Kaines running around Nozgoth with the agenda of tossing coins so goddamn hard they land on their sides.

pretty much all kain/raziel games make me feel warm and fuzzy inside in a unique way

Sum up the plot for me while I take a shower please

Go

>>377229196
History abhors a paradox

>>377229006
Too bad we never got a Defiance 2 with a Kain/Kain team-up. I also wonder what would happen if future Kain killed his past self with the purified reaver.

>>377229196
>Ultra condensed version.
Wheel of Fate is so Eldritch and can plan so well that it takes millennia of constant time-loops with minor variations to cause one fucking big variation that can free the world and all of existence from the Wheel of Fate.
Raziel is a zombie vampire with the ability to eat souls, he does not like being lied to and is constantly lied to by literally everything. So much so that when people try to tell him the truth he assumes that he is being lied to.
Kain is an asshole with a fetish for coin metaphors when discussing destiny and the like. He lies to everybody, including himself.

Poetic language ensue as you are taken across time, space and more levels of plot-twists than levels in hell for one masterful ride.

>>377228495
You need to learn the difference between writing and storytelling. When you're actually playing the game you're solving block pushing puzzles and killing endless monsters, which have nothing to do with the story. A game that segregates its content into story sequences and gameplay sequences has inherently bad storytelling. To take advantage of the medium of videogames, the gameplay and story should be intertwined. Play Demon's Souls and Thief: The Dark Project if you want examples of this done right.

BTW I love the whole LoK series (even BO2), not saying they're bad games, just that Amy Hennig obviously wished she was making a movie or a TV show and had no idea how to integrate story and gameplay.

>>377229694
Probably would have usurped himself by causing the only paradox that the Wheel of Fate wanted.
Making the entire plot meaningless.

>>377229006
>Besides, the game went balls to the wall retarded at the end unless I missed something and there are now two Kaines running around Nozgoth
I don't see how that's a problem, at some points in times there were multiple Moebius too. We already see what the younger Kain does in the post-Defiance world in Blood Omen 2.

>>377228728
>Dear Esther
>played

>>377228495
I've played, at least from what I remember:
>soul reaver 1 and 2
>blood omen 2
>defiance

They were fun don't get me wrong. I just don't really remember much of them though. I'm pretty sure I liked Blood Omen 2 the most for whatever reason. What exactly makes you say this when there are thousands of other games in existence OP?

>>377228728

Somehow the game was worse than the mod.

>>377228495
>SE
>proper anything
>after that canceled abomination Dead Sun

>>377228728
>Pain flowing deeply through the seas of unconcious breakage, my kidney stones formed islands from within me

>>377229831
>had no idea how to integrate story and gameplay.
if she was a writer, then I don't think it was her job anyway.

>>377229979
I guess but it felt like there was something horrifyingly wrong with there being two Kaines.
Like, the universe should absolute be tearing itself a new asshole trying to get rid of one of them.

>>377229196
Magical architecture which keeps the world together got fucked by douchebags killing each other. One of the replacement douchebags got turned into a vampire so he can go kill all the other douchebags, but when he was the only douchebag left he decided to make a vampire empire instead of killing himself.

Fast forward a few thousand years and his pretentious lieutenant grows wings and shows them off, but the vampire douchebag fucking executes him hardcore, but that guy becomes a sanctimonious wraith while pretending he doesn't just have a huge murder boner against his douchebag boss.

Time travel shenannigans ensue and the douchebag winds up being freed of his doucheness by the power of comradery and stabbing people, and then goes off to fight Cthulhu.

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>>377228495
msfw >I know you, Raziel. You are worthy

>tfw the last line of the series is literally about that "terrible emotion, hope" and then gets canned forever

>>377228495
Can I skip the first one?

>>377228495

I was playing the Dreamcast version of this game a while ago, but I only finished two of the dungeons before I got bored of it. The writing was lovely and flowery but I was always questioning where the hell I was supposed to go and didn't really enjoy the gameplay.

>>377230770
why would you?
emulate the dreamcast version if you need

>>377229694
>>377230292
>Like, the universe should absolute be tearing itself a new asshole trying to get rid of one of them.
>I also wonder what would happen if future Kain killed his past self with the purified reaver.
Most likely nothing, paradoxes in LoK seem to need to be linked with the state of an object, not living beings, they seem to follow their own timeline, otherwise the whole Nemesis plot couldn't happen since Kain destroyed the reason why he would go back in time.

Raziel is an extremely specific case because his soul is also stored in an object, the Soul Reaver and his soul being, or not, in it changes its state and thus allows paradoxes to happen. The death of Kain most likely has some effects on the timeline too because it probably also changes when Raziel's soul gets in the sword, if at all.

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>>377228495
>Ahem

>>377230902
>muh unplayable slav shit
i'm too stupid for this game

>>377230770
>first one
You mean Blood Omen, or Soul Reaver?
You're really not missing a lot of plot with Soul Reaver, it's basically a revenge rampage. Blood Omen covers a lot of the world's lore, but the later games explain a lot of these gaps to you since Raziel wasn't there for those events either.

>>377229006
>I missed something and there are now two Kaines running around Nozgoth with the agenda of tossing coins so goddamn hard they land on their sides.

Before that we had Raziel fighting himself. The series started retarded and just kept going.

It's a fun story but it was pretty silly

>>377231008
You can do it Anon. I know you can.

>>377230249
>if she was a writer, then I don't think it was her job anyway.

She's a games writer, it's absolutely her job

>>377231279
i can't
i tried but it was too deep for me

>yfw an 80's pop band made an experimental track that ended up becoming the iconic theme to LoK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgzbyd2MhbE

>>377228495
>OP wants another monkey's paw scenario on his conscience
You fool.

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>>377231385
Don't give it anon. You cannot give up. Don't let your soul sink.

>>377230249
The writer should know they're writing a story for a videogame, and that gameplay is as valuable a storytelling tool as the script or the voice acting or the cutscene cinematography or anything else. Considering Amy Hennig's later games I'd say she never learned this lesson.
I think 99% of games get this shit wrong, just got triggered by OP's use of the word "storytelling" when that's the one thing (IMO) that LoK doesn't do well.

>>377230770
No, play them in this order:
>Blood Omen
>Soul Reaver
>Soul Reaver 2
>Blood Omen 2 (optional, not the same writer/director as the rest and is barely ever mentioned)
>Defiance
Blood Omen is very different to the rest of the series so you might look at some screenshots and conclude it's a dumb retro game with no story, but the events of that game are brought up constantly, they're absolutely crucial to the overall story of the series.

>>377229196
Kain refused the sacrifice.

>>377229831
>>377231382
She did integrate the gameplay and story. That's where the whole reaver font came from.

>>377228495
We barely dodged Dead Sun, getting just shitty arena-shooter instead. Some things are better left untouched.

>>377228495
I just bought this game today. What am I in for?

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>>377228728

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>>377228495

>>377229196
If you throw a coin enough times it can land on its edge.

>>377231382
>>377231753
or, you know, directors or producers could do something too.

>>377228728
Dear Esther tells a decent story but delivers it in the worst way possible. There's WAY too much purple prose in it.

>>377228728
The only good thing that came out of Dear Esther was the narrator's voiced lines getting ported over to XCOM 2 as mod for your soldier's voice.

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>>377229196
Free will does not exist: destiny and fate are set in stone, everyone's lives are just a loop called the Wheel of Fate.. it exists to feed a god that's actually just a parasite.

Raziel, because of his unique "remaking" (he is released from the Wheel by dying but not completely) is the only creature in existence to have free will, and he and Kain (his "creator") break the laws of time, space and fate to try and take back their original destinies.

I guess that's the premise of the games, but the actual plot (especially in Soul Reaver 2) is so fucking complicated and miles better than any game these days. The story, voice acting, soundtrack and atmosphere are miles ahead of 99% games, a 11/10 imo, but the gameplay and graphics are outdated.

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>>377231854

>>377231753
>Considering Amy Hennig's later games I'd say she never learned this lesson.
What, Uncharted? She had no power over them. Studio came up with setpieces first and then dumped them on Amy, so that she'd string them in a story.

>>377228495
>Blood Omen
Great game, lots of exploration with a pretty good story that ends in a moral dilemma.

>Soulreaver
Mediocre, blatantly unfinished was rehashed into a LoK game from another game, story was basic and lackluster but not bad, had a decent amount of exploration. gained enough popularity to get a sequel.

>Soulreaver 2
Horrible game, shit story, linear gameplay, even more unfinished than the first game.

>Blood Omen 2
Another rehashed game, contrived plot barely fits into any of the other games plot, complete mess of a game both story and mechanically.

>Defiance
Desperate attempt to fix loose ends and plot holes, fails horribly. abysmal game was the final nail in the coffin that killed the series.

>>377231268
One weird thing is Janos seems to react like he's familiar with vampire Raziel when wraith Raziel meets him for the first time just before human Raziel murders him.

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Best storytelling in any Zelda game.

>>377230848
Isn't it on Steam? I think it is.

>>377232504
Janos thought Raziel was the prophesied Vampire Redeemer. Everyone who worked on the Reaver knew about Raziel's eventual existence just not how he was supposed to do the things he was gonna do.

>>377232687
it is but pc port is horrible

>>377232687
PC port is of the PS1 version it's shit. Dreamcast version of SR1 looks nearly like SR2, that's how much better the graphics are there.

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>>377229196

>>377231753
You're crediting the job of the scenario designer to the writer. Those are two different jobs. The writer establishes the setting, tone, theme, and world of the game.

The designer is supposed to figure out how to tie all that together with the game design and the rules that follow that.

Most devs split the creative and programming teams apart, so that's how you can have games that push a strong narrative but shit the bed on being an actual game

KAIN REFUSED THE SACRIFICE

BWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

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>>377232924

You can actually see a few feet in front of you, unlike the PS1 version.

Runs kinda bad on a real Dreamcast though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNWSDvDqm9g

This track is a fucking masterpiece.

Two questions.

1. Start with blood omen or soul reaver?

2. Are blood omen 1 and soul reaver 1 the only ones worth playing?

>>377233350
Just pick one, Faggot

>>377233114
>Runs kinda bad on a real Dreamcast though.
Really? The improved framerate is what I noticed most about my DC copy. The game doesn't shit itself whenever Raziel shifts like in the PS1 version.

>>377233350
Soul Reaver 2 is the pinnacle of the series.

IMO the best way to experience the series is to watch the movie-ified let's play of Soul Reaver 1, Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance.

You might want to also read the synopsis of the first game in the series where Kain can choose at the end to either sacrifice himself for the greater good or not.

>>377233350
BO and SR are kinda both origin stories of Kain and Raziel. They are both pretty self contained stories. If you played the later ones to get more of the story you would want to play the first ones before going onto them. Although you never need to play BO2.

>>377233350
There are two possible orders
>Release order
BO1
SR1
SR2
BO2
Defiance

>Chronological order
BO1
SR1
SR2
Defiance
BO2

All worth playing. Even BO2, despite its black sheep status, at least boasts great gameplay and visual design, and for the plotholes it created was made the Defiance, which turned BO2 into resulting timeline.

>>377233747

It runs all right compared to games of its time but the framerate was pretty offputting. I never played the PS1 version so I can't say how much better it is, but I imagine it's night and day.

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>>377233797
>the best way to experience the series is to watch the movie-ified let's play

>>377233797
>>377233821
>>377233825
Thanks. I'll go download BO. From my understanding Kain is the villain in SR so I guess understanding him would make SR better.

Are there any spoilersafe walkthroughs for Soul Reaver? The general gameplay might not be great but it's tolerable, but I constantly have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing.
I want to play for everything else, everything about the game is excellent.

Did anyone else hate the gameplay changes in Defiance?

>>377233943
The gameplay is dated, but the plot, voice acting and cutscenes are timeless.
Though the puzzles were actually nice.

>>377228495

> "Kain is deified. The clans tell tales of him, few know the truth. He was mortal once, as were we all. However, his contempt for humanity drove him to create me and my brethren.
I am Raziel, first born of his lieutenants. I stood with Kain and my brethren at the dawn of the empire. I have served him a millennium.
Over time we became less human and more . . . divine. Kain would enter the state of change and emerge with a new gift.
Some years after the master, our evolution would follow, until I had the honour of surpassing my lord. For my transgression, I earned a new kind of reward...

What was his reward again?

Also OP, just keep quiet about LoK, nothing good can come from current SE remembering they own this... you would be just asking for them to ruin it.

>>377234053
https://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197763-legacy-of-kain-soul-reaver/faqs/66054

I'm also pretty sure you can get hints on where to go at the pillars.

I KNOW YOU, RAZIEL.

>>377228495
You're deluded. Just problems with Moebius alone unravels the fucking plot:
>Moebius made the time-streaming devices, chronoplast, and time-streaming chamber and left them intact for Kain instead of marooning him in the future, arming his adversary with the only possible means of victory.
>Moebius seems to only have his vampire enslaving staff at a couple junctions throughout the entire history of LoK.
>Kain indicates removing the Reaver from Raziel is the "Edge of the Coin" freeing them from the "machinations of fate", but Moebius still predicts the actions of Kain and Raziel despite this being one of the most pivotal plot points of the series.
>Moebius is said to have literally near omnipotence within game cannon and by Hennig herself, he forsees his death, but does not forsee his demise at the hand of the Elder God nor does he know what the Elder God is.
>After being slain by Kain in BO1 he is immediately seen in the same continuity immediately after, lording over Raziel in Varador's mansion during the events of Defiance.
>Moebius pitted Raziel against Kain saying "either could win" while still being in line with her scheme, however if Raziel had slayed, he simply would have became the Reaver (which should have happened in Avernus during the duel, but did not), and Moebius always should have aligned with Raziel.

It just keeps going on like this... Possibly the worst time travel story ever told.

>>377234052
Kain's role changes a lot throughout the games. Overall he's antihero. And Raziel's perspective changes a lot throughout his journey too. It's a fantastic story with well-developed characters.

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>>377230770

Absolutely not. If you meant the original BO you would need the story fragments, if you meant the first Soul Reaver, you would miss on the peak of the series gameplay wise.

Sure, it might not look as much now but back in the day it was like a really dark substitute for Ocarina of time if you didn't own a N64 (I did, but that's not the point)

>>377234415
>>377232227

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3faOccJsZc

Here you go.
You don't need to actually play the games now.

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>>377233114
Having played both, I somehow liked the fog-filled world of the PSX better than the Dreamcast's, it gave the impression that the world was way bigger than it really was.

>>377234361
The whole point of the story is that Raziel's death by the Reaver created paradox, that's the edge of the coin, there is no predestination from here on out, no future to foresee for Moebius, once Raziel and Reaver are torn apart anything is possible. And that is what happens in Defiance, new timeline is created, the one where Hylden lord possesses Janos, creates the gates for other Hylden to go through and stops Kain's conquest, resulting in BO2 instead of SR.

https://youtu.be/fp4w6J-1HeA?t=2m52s

>FALSE. GOD.
>This is it! The final turn of your infernal wheel!
>In the meantime, you'd best bury deep

God I love Kain's voice. Templeman is elder god tier, I swear.

BTW, was it ever explained how Vorador magically came back to life in Blood Omen 2?

>>377235283
That doesn't explain why Moebius predicts what they both do in Defiance and even goes as far as saying so.
Furthermore the conclusion of the coin edge is the same as if Kain hadn't interfered in the first place (as far as I know):
Kain gets a reforged version of the Reaver with Raziel's soul in it as well as both vampiric and hylden shrine empowerment.

>>377235571
Not explicitly, but there are two versions
>Moebius did not actually capture Vorador in Defiance timeline, just took his sword to manipulate Raziel
>Old Kain resurrected Vorador with the power of purified Reaver

>>377234361
Pretty sure everything Moebius did was done by him knowing what would happen except in the instances of Raziel. He was the only unknown.

>>377235817
>That doesn't explain why Moebius predicts what they both do in Defiance and even goes as far as saying so.
He has the help of the Elder God. And paradoxes don't stop Raziel from being predictable.

>Furthermore the conclusion of the coin edge is the same as if Kain hadn't interfered in the first place (as far as I know)
Wrong, considering Kain didn't know the Elder God existed until the end of Defiance.

>>377236285
It literally shows potential shit Raziel does in the first Soul Reaver by looking into a time-streaming well.

>>377235817
Moebius does not predict shit in Defiance. And of course Kain's interference doesn't do anything, he's still bound by destiny, Raziel's the one who can influence future. What Moebius banks on by saying either could win is that if Kain wins the destiny continues as it should and paradox is nullified, so purification of the Reaver means nothing, story will continue the way it always has, and if Raziel wins - Kain dies and can't fight him and the Elder God.

>>377234361

>>Moebius made the time-streaming devices, chronoplast, and time-streaming chamber and left them intact for Kain instead of marooning him in the future, arming his adversary with the only possible means of victory.

That's not how time travel works on LoK matte.
Cyclic/ spiral/ Destiny time travel means the characters are ALWAYS supposed to be where they go.

Raziel is always meant to go back in time and get trapped inside of the river to ensure Moebious and the Elder god plan to happen because it's already happened that way and Raziel will only go back to pursue Kain which means Kain also is meant to travel.

>>Moebius seems to only have his vampire enslaving staff at a couple junctions throughout the entire history of LoK.

He uses ir or not depending who he is trying to manipulate. He shows what he must.

>>Kain indicates removing the Reaver from Raziel is the "Edge of the Coin"

Time abhors a paradox. Plus, Kain BELIEVES that Raziel entering the sword is the edge of the coin. He was wrong.
Raziel is always meant to enter the sword. The edge is on WHEN. The only one that actually knows this is the elder god that's why he tries to alienate Raziel.

>>Moebius is said to have literally near omniscient within game cannon

His omniscience comes from listening to the elder god. He seems omniscent to others but the one that is everywhen at once is the elder god. He is just a pawn.

>>After being slain by Kain in BO1 he is immediately seen in the same continuity immediately after, lording over Raziel in Varador's mansion during the events of Defiance.

The elder god resurrected him.

>>377236405
>He has the help of the Elder God. And paradoxes don't stop Raziel from being predictable.
You're speculating on what Moebius can and can't do without evidence. I'm going on what he says and does and what is said about him by the creator.

>Kain didn't know the Elder God existed until the end of Defiance.
That was a simple case of him being physically right in front of the Elder God, and you're talking about the purification of Kain. This would have happened anyways because the reaver was purified by the end of SR2.

>>377236983
>the reaver was purified by the end of SR2
No it wasn't, the reaver was purified when Raziel entered it after absorbing Ariel, her spirit as the original uncorrupted guardian was required for the purification of the Reaver.

>>377236983
>You're speculating on what Moebius can and can't do without evidence.
Yes, but it's reasonable enough.

>That was a simple case of him being physically right in front of the Elder God
No, it was because Raziel had absorbed the soul of the guardian of balance. This would have never happened if time travel wasn't involved

>>377236443
Potential is not actual. No one else can control their fate like Raziel.

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>Square Enix owns LOK

>>377237525
Have you seen the video of their scraped LoK: Dead Sun? It was literally DmC of LoK, including a phrase "fuck you, vampire".

>>377236575
1. You're speculating. If they were always supposed to be there, then destiny wouldn't have been able to be altered and the paradoxes wouldn't hsve mattered. Time can be altered, that's the point.

2. Not a good enough excuse frankly. He quailed back every time he was threatened, so clearly he valued his life.

3. Nothing changes depending on when he enters the sword AFTER the reaver is purified, which is coincidentally before they fight in the end of SR2.

4. Please feel free to point out at what point in the games where this is stated.

5. Flat-oit wrong, feel free to go back and look. It is even widely known that this resurrection is either off-screen (before resurrection is introduced, which is retarded) or it simply didn't make sense (which is more likely as the game would outline Moebius' resurrection as noteworthy).

>>377233821
>Although you never need to play BO2.
Well he would've needed to play it if the series didn't die because of Eidos' terrible management.

That game was explaining why the Hylden's dimension was old Kain's next stop because he needed an original vampire to stay alive to ensure the security of the soon to be restored pillars and their vampire guardians since Kain and any other human-based vampire can only make vampires that will degenerate into various forms after some centuries.

>>377234064
The thing that triggered me the most in Defiance was the character model of Kain, it somehow looked like shit to me after SR2's.

>>377235817
>That doesn't explain why Moebius predicts what they both do in Defiance and even goes as far as saying so.
He didn't, he even taunts Raziel about it after he kills Kain, the only unpredictable pawn in the game did exactly what they hoped him to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nFU1r6JVW8