Is it just me who can't bring themselves to enjoy games

Diablo was originally a turned based game. Mechanical skills were literally not thought of during its development.

Additionally leveling is a form of static progression. It's something that happens at a fairly consistent rate. This is to offset the random progression of items and perma shrines. Both systems reward clearing all monsters on each level and exploring all rooms.

Sounds like you need to stop playing RPGs.
The whole point of an RPG is that you're as strong as your character.

>>376899124
...what the fuck does that even mean?

How the fuck is that different from literally any other game in existence?

>>376898558
I always felt like demons/dark souls were the true sequels to diablo.
Diablo 2 wasn't scary or atmospheric in the slightest and was far too much about loot and grind.
Insofar as the vibe of the game, it's sad that we've never got another horror dungeon crawler.
Also, in answer to your point OP, levelling up is a reward for exploration, and you should always be pretty much set to survive the next bit if you explore everything and kill everything.
So in practice both diablo's system and one in which you just gain abilities at set points have the same outcome.

>>376899306
>...what the fuck does that even mean?
It means that if player skill decides fights the game has failed as an RPG.

In Call of Duty whether or not you hit the enemy depends on your ability to aim. In a "proper" RPG whether or not you hit the enemy depends on your character's ability to aim. This also carries across to things like intelligence. You might be an utter retard in real life (literally, I'm not trying to be insulting) but if your character sheet says you have genius IQ then your character should act as if he's a genius even if you can barely communicate in full sentences.

That's what it means.

>>376899124
That means you can't kill Diablo at level 1 because your character can't.
In any decent RPG you can't talk yourself out of a problem if your character isn't charismatic enough or doesn't have a high skill in speechcraft or whatever. It doesn't matter how good you are at talking yourself out of trouble, but how good your character is at it.

>>376899562
Everyone knows Demon/Dark Souls is the true 3D sequel to metroidvanias.
I played through Dark Souls with a Castlevania soundtrack medley on and it was damn near perfect.

>>376899959
Ok, fair enough, that makes sense, but I'm having a hard time seeing how that's fun.

If I chose my character stats at the start of the game and they just stuck at that level, I could understand the role playing potential and replay value, but as it is, your forced into grinding enemies and just doing the same thing over and over to make numbers bigger in order to progress or learn things. It's not because you unconvered some secret that made you smarter, or that you found some weapon through doing a puzzle that made you stronger, it's literally just grinding until you have enough XP to level up.

>>376900163
When you're grinding in game for XP your character is literally gaining experience in fighting enemies. Which is translated into the game in an abstract form known as skillpoints.
sure it's always backwards, what with your character choosing what he wants to learn after having gained experience, but that's just done for convenience's sake.

Also, I don't think you ever have to grind in Diablo 1 on normal do you?

>>376900163
>but I'm having a hard time seeing how that's fun.
Spoiler alert: it's not. Not in videogames, anyway. It's a holdover from when people were still trying to port Dungeons and Dragons onto computers before they realised it was futile and stopped.

You get the occasional autistic people who enjoy grinding and minmaxing and seeing how far they can break the system, but for you and me and the average person it's just boring. That's why it's a dead genre.

Where this kind of system shines is in narrative-driven games (note that I said game there, so we're ignoring shit like Gone Home). Games like Sunless Sea, where the narrative and the gameplay significantly intersect NEED this kind of system because nobody likes having their access to the next chapter cockblocked while they replay the level enough times to luck their way through it. It lets them participate in the story while also engaging the part of their game that likes playing games, making decisions, that kind of thing in a way that books and movies don't. You can use good narrative and strong roleplaying mechanics together to make some really great stuff, and make the story actually impact on the gameplay in a way that CoD can't.

The player can't play through a CoD cutscene because the player might not be good enough to pull it off, so the cutscene takes control away. In a roleplaying game you make the decision for the character, letting you participate, but the character actually can pull it off "for you".

Anyway, all of this you would already know if you lurked more.

>>376900531
>engaging the part of their game that
brain, not game.

>>376898558
>Is it just me who can't bring themselves to enjoy games where levelling up is required to actually stand a chance?
Sort of. It's kind of why I quit playing JRPGs.

Having to level doesn't hurt the experience too much with games like TES and FO, though.

Ever heard of recommended level?

>>376900531
Is grinding a holdover from D&D or players being limited by their characters abilities?

>>376898558
Did /vr/ blow you out hard enough that you had to resort to coming here?

>>376900774
Originally grinding was devs trying to find something to fill out the gameplay with. You take the D&D combat system and you've got the less important half of D&D, okay great, now what are you going to do for the other half? The answer is just pump stuff into the combat system's guts until you've got enough of a game, because there is no fucking chance in hell that you can duplicate having a good DM. Some people try that, and you end up with varying successes, like Planescape: Torment that are basically a D&D campaign set to vidya. But it's really fucking hard, and never as good as actual D&D for D&D players, or a book/movie for everyone else.

Anyway, the "more combat" solution isn't very fun for most people, but for some people it's REALLY fun. So you get niche Japanese grinding simulators made for autists, and grinding is mostly/entirely dropped in mainstream RPGs like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Witcher 3, Skyrim, and so on. They may still have level-gated content (Witcher 3 definitely does) but you level so fast that you'll probably overlevel before you ever have to grind.

And that's the evolution of CRPGs up until now.

Walking simulators for the people who only want the story.
Mainstream RPGs that have player skill driven combat either entirely or forming the bulk of the combat system.
Grinding simulators for autists and minmaxxers.
And computer-based D&D systems for people who want D&D but want to do it online/using computer dice and notes/whatever.

>>376898558

>complaining about grinding
>includes an image of Diablo

Are you making a funny? I'm pretty sure the far majority of players didn't even know how to reset the maps, making grinding impossible. Not to mention that you can skip around 90% of the game and still easily defeat Diablo by being skilled. The potential to grind does not mean a game cannot be skilled. Now as for JRPGs, I can agree, as they are entirely turn-based with virtually no strategy, making it just a matter of numbers.

>>376898558
Beat Diablo 1 a few months ago, didn't need to grind at all and beat it in 6 hours. Just kited and shift clicked shit.

I don't usually run into this issue except for Crystalis, you have to be a certain level to even damage the bosses.
What a load of shit, am I right?

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>tfw get the to butcher
had to grind for ages to even stand a chance

>>376902252
If you can't into kiting, ez mode is to lock him close him behind a door where there's a barred window and just shoot arrows n shit at him.

>>376898558
I read this as "I get burnt out preparing to deal with tour monsters, and would rather have the game make everything easy enough I can take it down with some kiting"

Come on now.

>>376898558

You sound like a person that is shit at video games.

You would have to intentionally ignore enemies in Diablo or go instantly to lower levels to have problems with the game on Normal.

The story of the game is progressive throughout the levels. You progressively get stronger by going through that.

Why would a warrior get better by reading a book about Diablo instead of killing and actually fighting enemies?

He literally LITERALLY gains experience. Combat experience against equally strong foes. That is part of the story. Your character is evolving. That is the small rpg element of Diablo.

It is a fair challenging game unless you are shit.
If you don't care about characters stats ... are you implying you prefer QTE?

Diablo is based on skill. How well you play immensely influences your characters strength.

You can kill Diablo on a very low level too btw.

How the fuck do I kill Andariel as a necromancer who put all his points into Skellies?

She melts them.

>>376904231
Weren't skellie builds nerfed into the ground by like the second patch? Pretty sure the only way to play a pet necro is golems.

>>376902252
>>376902380
>tfw they ruined the butcher in d3

>>376904525
nah m8

MM is viable as fuck when I last played

like 1.12 or something

I muh prefer games where my chance of success depends entirely on my level. I don't want a challenge, I just want to feel powerful. You're right, I am bad at games. But I still enjoy them. I won't do boss fights or anything like that until I'm sure I'll steamroll them. Grind for weeks if I need to. I just listen to alot of music or podcasts

>>376906440
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e02G8y000WE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj_E76Y_oNM

Nah

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Maybe it's because of my shit ton of time playing runescape as a kid, but grinding in idle games has been kind of enjoyable fur me lately. Just set everything up and go do something productive.

>>376908129
MEAT GOOD
VEGETABLE BAD

>>376908373
Might as well play cookie clicker.

>>376909936

Already did years ago. Soda Dungeon is keeping me interested due to me defined goals.

>>376898558
>because I didn't kill some arbitrary amount of monsters to make the numbers next to my stats bigger, I'm not allowed to progress.
Literally does not ever happen in Diablo

>>376906814
Wanting to feel powerful does not make you bad at games. You've been listening to /v/'s bullshit for too long. Games don't actually need to be an exercise in frustration to be good, and you don't have to subject yourself to torture to be good at a game.

>>376910665
Not OP but I believe he's arguing more about the idea of difficulty being determined based on how big these numbers are rather than player ability.

It's not that simple of course, but whatever.

>>376901112
>But it's really fucking hard, and never as good as actual D&D for D&D players
It's certainly better than a shitty or mediocre campaign.

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Dungeon Siege did it right, where enemies literally do not respawn whatsoever, so you can't overlevel, or really, underlevel. It's perfectly in tune with the games difficulty and player level.

At least, the first game was like that. Not from 2 onwards. Though 2 was still good. 3 was trash though.

>>376911591

I just wish Dungeon Siege had scalable UI. That game gets harder to read as resolutions get higher.