Last hitting is a fucking stupid mechanic. It just adds 20 minutes

I get that it's to make it so you aren't sitting around auto-attacking while you level up, but the mechanic is so brainless that you're only one step separated from that.

>>>/vg/
the board was literally created for your ilk.

>>376848987
It adds a dynamic element in the lanes beyond "hit the other guy." You have to not only last hit his army, you also have to maximize your advantage by last hitting your own, denying XP, and potentially bullying him out of XP range completely (watching out for creep aggro of course). You can't kill shit willy nilly because that leaves you vulnerable to ganks and makes it harder to bully your opponent under his tower. You also can't be too passive because getting the wave closer to your tower invites a surprise push and removing a safe zone from the map.

every aspect of MOBAs is trash, not just last hitting

>>376848987
>20 minutes of tedious grinding where nothing happens to the start of the game
wrong

>>376848987
>try to support my carry in lane
>"fucking retard give me solo exp"
>go to pull
>carry dies
>its my fault

what a great game

>>376848987
>20 minutes
>nothing happens
besides competing for said farm, harassing, ganking
Then after 10 minutes the laning phase is usually done and people move around the map, farming, ganking pushing.

If you aren't getting money the whole time through a camp or creeps you're doing something wrong. It's second nature if you're any good at all and is the difference between a great carry player and a good one.

>>376848987
Fighting creeps just sucks. It's not an entirely bad mechanic: it's interesting that killing the enemy creeps off faster pushes their tower harder, and the fights between players end up with more varied positioning from trying to last-hit and stuff, but it's still a stupid mini-game where someone fights you over top of it. Jungling seems hyper-boring too, but at least you get to strategically ambush people. It still feels like a dumb mod for WC3 after all this time long.

>>376850067
>it's not 20 minutes where nothing happens!
>it's just 10 minutes where nothing happens!

this is still not acceptable

>>376848987
It makes the game easier to learn because it's a mechanic that was preserved from WC3 so anyone who wants to play DotA:All Stars already knows how to do it if he played WC3.

>>376850196
except it isn't you fucking retard.

why do people who don't know how to play this game feel the need to voice their opinion on it?

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>>376848987
I agree with this, ever since they introduced rubberbanding what this dude said >>376849770
has been completely marginalized to the point that it doesn't even matter. The only reason its still around is because everyone would just be sanding around otherwise, both you and the enmity have to go where the creeps are.

>>376848987
>keeping a mechanic that was there because of engine limitations in new entries
this is why I don't take ASSFAGGOTS seriously

>>376850149
>jungling

>jungle content is completely irrelevant and separate from the actual main objective of the game except for giving money and XP, has absolutely no interaction with the towers, minions, or ancients

stupid as hell

>>376848987
I thought you can't deny in LoL so the mechanic of last hits must be very boring and easy unlike in Dota.

>>376850196
t. 1k

>>376850426
>what is chen, ench, doom etc..
there are many ways of how you can use jungle for the game, not just to get exp and gold

>>376850385
They got rid of lasthitting in Heroes of the Storm and just gave heroes an exp radius where if anything died within a certain distance of them they got the XP for it. Makes a lot more sense and doesn't punish people for playing support

>>376850317
The rubber banding keeps games from being totally one sided if you can outplay your opponent. Even then the bounty gold has to go to someone who can use it well.

>>376848987
Yep, play heroes of the storm.

No last hitting - its the moba that lets you have fun the whole game. Not just the last 10 minutes.

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>>376850196
>nothing happens
nigga, if you aren't bullying enemies out of their lanes, ganking retarded legion commanders in the jungle, and TPing to whatever lane is getting gone on, then you are doing something horribly wrong.

even if you're a playing a super greedy carry and don't want to get involved early on, you should at the very least be pushing the enemies towers when your teammates are causing a ruckus on the other side of the map.

>>376850426
>minions
lol

>>376850385
engine limitations were the reason for an economy system that they purposefully implemented?

is engine limitations now just buzzwords?

>>376850580
Yeah except now there's no way to counter an enemy with items, you have to have picked the right heroes at the draft to win at high play.

Everything is a deathball fight, one team always gets 10 before the other team and has a huge advantage.

>>376850827
That's the official name in League of Legends

if you want to be autistic about it you can pretend i said creeps

How do dota or lol players handle seeing the same little map over and over again? I wonder if it even matters at all to you.

>>376850748
>trade a skill cap and a challenge for mindless, easy, samey fun where you still only have fun for the last 10 minutes but lose at draft and have to rely even more on your retarded team

>>376850956
yes thats the point

>>376850426
so?

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>>376850887
>implying DotA2 and LoL don't have snowballing
>implying gold advantage isn't just as powerful as EXP advantage in HotS

rubberbanding didn't solve the problem. If you have gold advantage at 10 minutes you've basically already won. The rest of the game at that point is little more than a formality

>>376848987
>makes teammates bitch at each other and fight over XP
imagine a game where a team actually woks together on prioritizing

>>376850975
the game is interesting enough so as not to need a bunch of shitty maps with annoying objectives

>>376848987
>Not playing a dedicated roamer

1k MMR detected.

>>376850498
DotA elitist spoted

>>376851136
oh plase, there is no more skill in one moba than another, theyre all basic babbys first RTS regarding mechanical skill.

Learning the games items and mechanics can take a bit of time, but that comes whilst playing.

Hots games are fun from the beginning to the end, and i say that as an ex dota2 player, with some time in lol.

>>376848987
It is an essential element of resource management and economy.

>>376850426
>heroes that can take control of jungle creeps
>hero that can take spells from jungle creeps
>stacking jungle creep camps for the carry to farm
>pulling the lane creeps into jungle camps to control the lane position, deny gold/XP to the enemy, and get some gold/XP for the support

the fact alone that you say the jungle has no interaction with towers or "minions" just shows that you don't know what you're talking about. maybe the jungle is useless in LoL beyond getting the red/blue buffs, but in Dota the jungle is extremely important and can have a lot of impact on the game, depending on what heroes are in play and what's happening in the game.

>>376851213
Sorry friend, that's only LoL

I've won more one sided comebacks in DotA than I can count simply because some heroes are better later than others or we've helped off pushes/ganks and won team fights to get back in the lead.

Occasionally there's a game where someone feeds Slark or something and no one else seems to be able to do anything about it. That more or less comes down to team morale, team comp and my own willingness/ability to do something about it.

Don't come talking about shit you don't know about, just go play your babbies first team fight simulator with all your favorite Disney princes and princesses.

>>376850636
Completely different argument/conversation. You're completely wrong but its still irrelevant.

Its like if i said the sun was shining in my eyes and cant see the ball so you counter that by saying "yeah well the grass needs the sun to grow"

>>376850887
>purposefully implemented
>buzzwords
As far as I know, WC3 engine only took into account whoever hit last when it came to rewards, instead of everyone who took part in the fight in any way as it should have been, and there was no way around it.
An "economy" and strategies were formed around this "limitation" by players themselves after extensive playing.
New, more modern versions (LoL, HoN, etc) grabbed this now expected mechanic and implemented it in their own ruleset just because familiarity, and not necessity.

Correct any of this if it's wrong, or not entirely right.

>>376851505
>muh rts
You fags really hit rock bottom - defending hots now? Sorry bud but even if you suck blizz's cock till it falls off they can never make sc popular again.

>>376850975
It literally doesn't matter and it's one of the stupidest complaints people can have about the genre.

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>>376850819
none of that matters due to rubber banding though, you have to completely shut out the enemy team in order for it to matter, the real game starts at 20 min

>>376851803
> there was no way around it
wrong, it would have been super easy to make it so you get gold just for being around the dead minion, or for tapping it at least. In fact, in WC3 it would have been harder to make it so the + gold notification showed up over non-neutral creeps, which is what they did.

>>376850975
If you need new shit in a game to keep it interesting then it's a shit game

>>376851505
DotA has much more intricate interactions going on than LoL and much more to remember.

Knowing what to buy and why is more important than memorizing a buy order/talent order will ever be. Heroes has optimal ways to build heroes and by the time I feel strong the game is ending. It's fun but gets old rapidly. Especially because of the map system.

>>376851505
It's always funny seeing self proclaimed RTSfags shit on other games not being "as mechanically challenging".

Every washed up RTS player got stomped when they tried to play dota for easy money and were the worst player by far on their team.

I suppose I can understand you being bitter, how a bunch of autists that only cared about APM managed to ruin a whole genre is truly sad.

>>376850636
>Games shouldn't solely be determined on skill

If one team beats the piss out of the other team just let them win, I hate this stupid shit where my team kills the other team 15 times, takes all the tier 2 towers, and then can't end the game because of the fucking uphill shrines, uphill miss chance, and uphill vision making it impossible to take the tier 3s unless we starve out the enemy for 20 minutes because a single death to the enemy's position 1 ruins all the work we did to get to that point.

>>376851213
Thats completely wrong, it doesn't matter how hard you outplay some one and get an advantage due to rubber banding. The problem is the exact opposite of what you are suggesting. And people like this >>376851672 who think shooting a goal and tieing up a game even though your opponent shot like 3 on you is good gameplay and brags about it on 4chan.

>>376850317
Dude.. That's exactly what he fucking said. Are you stupid? It's to add another element to the game holy fuck.

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>>376851958
Would DotA2 be a better game if everybody just started the game at level 10 with the appropriate amount of gold?

Just skip the first bit of fucking nothing

>>376852098
exactly, why do we even need balance patches, just have the same meta with the same comps for 10 years

>>376851803
dude I played other maps in the same 'genre' that had different economy systems entirely, one was that if you were nearby you got gold, everyone who was nearby

economy is a very important part of these games, even experience is a resource in heroes of the storm, you're just competing for it differently

>>376851803
>instead of everyone who took part in the fight in any way as it should have been
lol

>>376851505
Heroes is very different. It's the easy mode of mobas. Just spam attacks there's no real combos or anything. It's retarded. Plus Champs are either op or just useless.

>>376852207
>>Games shouldn't solely be determined on skill
I hate this thinking so much. If an idiot wants his win welfare he should go to a casino.

>>376851872
rts was mentioned as a comparison of mechanical input skill only.

The games themselves are in no way related.

Learn to read what was actually written instead of jumping to some sort of buzzword or meme you can bandwagon on.

>>376852009
>gold
What about exp?
This came out first result:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/10586258523

>>376851958
>muh memeback
if you have such a big advantage and still manage to lose fights then you either had an early-game-oriented draft and failed to win before your timing window passed, or you got cocky and threw the game like a retard.

the effects of rubber banding are extremely over-exaggerated. maybe when icefrog first reworked the comeback gold numbers in whatever patch that was, you may have had a point, but comeback gold has been nerfed several times since then and is not at all an issue.

>>376852207
This. If anything the team that's ahead should be getting more advantages, not disadvantages.

>>376851958
rubber banding only punishes retarded fucksticks that thinking diving T4s while T2s are still alive is a good idea. The damn gold mechanic has been nerfed so many times it's probably at the same rate it was before.

People are just having PTSD when one wipe gave the enemy 20k gold in 30 seconds that lasted for 2 days.

>>376852126
>Heroes has optimal ways to build heroes and by the time I feel strong the game is ending. It's fun but gets old rapidly.

I agree with you here, its not often i get games longer than 15-20 minutes anymroe. In the past i remember some games going to 30 or so mins if both teams are equally decent defending at the end. It is a shame you aren't able to play fully leveled up for longer.

>>376852240
>>376852207
Ill agree that it needs to be adjusted, but I think being able to come back at all is important.

>>376852349
Balance patches are meant to balance the game.
New maps or other shit are just shiny things for kids and people with ADD.

>>376850975
because dota and lol are based on player-controlled variables

>>376852278
Youre dumb as fuck lmao

>>376852324
No because people don't want the game to end after 20 min, team reddit decided this after newbie beat EG like 3 years ago by 5 maning down mid and ending the game in 20 min every game throughout the tournament. So they have been "artificially" prolonging games with every patch.

>>376852324
no

take your 2k opinion elsewhere, such as back to hots

>>376852605
then don't get cocky. It's like when a racer thinks he's passed the finish line but in reality there's still a good way to go before winning.

>>376849770
This. If you take out last hitting, just take out creeps and add some control point bullshit for gold and XP.

>>376852442
>how fast you can click is the only form of skill that matters
Also shows how much you know when you're jerking off over RTS' mechanical skill instead of the macro knowledge and fast decision making required

>>376852603
>if you have such a big advantage and still manage to lose fights...

Not my argument at all, please don't try to use me as a soap box to bitch about something no one said.

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>>376849831

>>376850975
>how do baseball players handle playing in the same place all the time
>how do football players handle playing on the same field all the time
>how to tennis players stand playing in that court all the time

>>376848987
This is why I like how Heroes of the Storm does it. Everyone on your team is at the same level and don't have to farm minions for gold and exp and can focus on objectives instead.

Sure, HotS has its flaws, but offers a less "within team" competitiveness.

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>>376852207
I agree, if you got fucked in the early game because you can't look at the minimap or call missing your team deserves to lose.
Rubberbanding exists to make the games more "epic" to watch on twitch because chinks turned games into 70 minute grind fests back in the day

>>376852783
then the game becomes "who kills the best early game and can stay on points or keeps people off the best"

>>376852605
this would be terrible. there would be no reason to draft or play for anything but the early game, then. any late-game hero would be completely obsoleted, since you'd never be able to survive long enough to get to the late game. plus every single game would just turn into massive snowballing stomps, there would never be anything fun or interesting as soon as one team gained any sort of an upper hand. Dota and other ASSFAGGOTS already have enough snowballing built in by how much faster you can accrue items and levels when you control the map, there's no sense in exaggerating it even more.

>>376853009

This

>>376853009
everyone being the same level bothers me and everyone should level slower, fixed your shit game

>>376852460
it wouldn't be as simple as gold, but it still wouldn't be that hard. certainly not harder than making some of the custom spells like omnislash. even the GUI options in the trigger editor have settings for adding, removing, and disabling exp gain.

Mining for minerals is a stupid fucking mechanics etc. etc. Resources are always a part of RTS games, fuck off.

>>376850975
how do fighting game players handle seeing the same map over again?
how do chess players handle playing on the same board every time?

>>376853203
Fast games are preferable imo. Are you saying you prefer games that last an hour each?

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>>376852783
>dota without creeps

That... actually doesn't sound too bad. You still have the towers, but your team needs to coordinate more to take them down. The only problem would be how you get XP in the early game.

Has any game ever tried this before? a DotA clone without creeps?

DotA should add an invisible barrier in the middle lane to prevent any sort of roaming. I miss the days when midlane was pure 1v1 goodness. Fuck this roaming support gay shit.

>>376853425
You mean just a fucking arena? Go play bloodline champions.

>>376852841
you claimed that the laning phase does not matter because of rubber banding. that is exactly what your argument was.

but fine, let me explain it another way, then. the laning phase is extremely important and doing well in the laning phase gives you a huge leg up for winning teamfights and taking objectives in the mid game. if you sack your laning phase you are almost always going to get BTFO once the other team decides to start taking control of the map. the notion that the laning phase doesn't matter because "muh rubberbanding" is completely wrong.

>Watch soccer (futbol)
>They kick the ball back forth for hours
>Game ends 0-0
>This is somehow more entertaining than ASSFAGGOTS

>>376852603
>maybe when icefrog first reworked comeback gold numbers

See, this is how they tricked the community into accepting the ridiculous premise of comeback mechanics. They made them massively overtuned on purpose, then reduced them to show they were "listening to the community". Then even though the new system was worse than pre-comeback, nobody cared because "at least it's not as bad as the initial implementation."

>>376850975
How do chess players handle using the same game board every time?

why do people call mobas assfaggots?

>>376853410
>I took what you said and drove it to 10! xD
What an argument mark

No I prefer a game to not be the blink of an eye. Fucking millennials and short attention span cunts.

>>376853701
Aeon of Strife Styled Fortress Assault Game Going On Two Sides

>>376849959
Are you me?

>>376853353
DotA clones aren't RTS games, though. They're their own thing. RTS games are "about" micromanagement of units and resource control. Resources are important because that's a major part of the game.

On the other hand, in a DotA clone the focus is the heroes fighting each other. Ganks, team fights, pokes, coordinated pushes. Resource collecting is just something you do between fights because otherwise you would just be standing around doing nothing. Literally just space filling fluff. I mean, maybe there are some people that play DotA2 for the thrilling experience of lasthitting the same fucking mooks over and over again for half an hour but I really hope people aren't that pathetic

>>376853748
thanks

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>>376853701

>>376848987
Not sure what you were expecting playing ASSFAGGOTS

>>376849959
>>376853781
Are you both bad?

>>376850571
>>what is doom
A hungry, hungry demon of slightly inconveniencing supports.

You forgot about Helm of the Dominator.

>>376853880
you are the carry that dies and then flames your team mates

>>376853701
Because it accurately describes the genre. A real MOBA is something like Bloodline Champions. DotA and DotAlikes are not MOBAs.

>>376853924
no i didnt forgot
i just didnt list it because i am lazy
thats why i said etc....
>there are many ways of how you can use jungle

>>376849770
>>376850317
>>376850636
>>376851690
>>376852207
>>376853127
Why the hell is everyone complaining about rubberband, when 7.00 of all patches effectively REMOVED rubberband by introducing talents?

The game has developed into picking the same boring ass heroes that have broken talents, and isn't diverse in playstyle in any way shape or form currently.

EXP is more important than gold now. A team with an early EXP lead and the right hero picks (i.e. heroes that have broken talents) will always win before the enemy team has a chance to get their talents.

So not only now do you fall behind in gold, falling behind in EXP (something that goes in hand with falling behind in gold) has an even bigger impact!

This also means teams can just fight from minute 1 and the team with the better picks will always win.

>>376853936
you are the support who stands in lane and doesnt pull or keeps pulling and doesnt notice the opposing laner getting frisky with your carry

>>376854004
The most accurate descriptor for the genre is and always has been "DotA clone".

>>376854054
nice try but i am the offlaner

>>376853936
no, i'm a non shit support.

You can check the minimap and see if your carry is getting his shti pushed in. You should.

>>376854056
but theyre all aeon of strife clones, faggot

>>376853936
>>376854054
both of these are the reason why I never play safe lane with randoms anymore

jungle, mid, and solo offlane are the only ways to win games when playing alone

>>376854176
it's true, I keep Zeusing offlane or Medusa mid

>>376853880
No, considering i bullied the weaver out of lane for 5 fucking minutes and you couldn't even switch power threads.

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>>376851958
If the enemy team is too ahead, you can't really fight them. So all they have to do, is to take the remaining objectives and win the game.

I.e this game
Magnus didn't have good enough ping to lane, Sven lost mid, the fucking trilane bottom went bad because Oracle and CM couldn't fucking play the game.
Its the kind of game where if you randomed a hero with better aoe disables, or ganking, it could have been won.

>>376853514
Yeah, that was my argument

but this
>if you have such a big advantage and still manage to lose fights then you either had an early-game-oriented draft and failed to win before your timing window passed, or you got cocky and threw the game like a retard.

has nothing to do with that at all, stuff like "bullying enemies out of their lanes, ganking retarded legion commanders in the jungle, and TPing to whatever lane is getting gone on" are not "massive advantages" they are little advantages you gain for yourself that turn into bigger advantages as the game unfolds going into mid game. thats the OLD system anyway. with rubber banding little advantages don't mean anything at all because of how easy they are to reverse. Unless you stop some LC from jungleing and he is like level 3 at 10 min you didnt actually do shit, denying some one 1 level or 200 gold doesn't mean SHIT anymore. All these 100eds of little things you would do in dota are meaningless, games 100% hinge on BIG things happening, big deciding team fights, big item completions, etc

I played support in %50 of my games hitting 5k and post rubberband supports are a joke

>>376854147
not really

>>376854038
Some heroes get crazy power spikes at certain levels and rubber band applies to xp as well. You can be losing and then "oopsie you died once to core now they've got their talent and are significantly stronger"

>>376852973
They're sports. They're a completely different form of stimulation. Video games are interactive visual surfaces with sound effects that stimulate by virtue of seeming like something their not, sports are a completely different depth (even though baseball is stupid). Using them to make your point is extremely dumb.

>>376853387
Fighting games are a great example of why even just changing the background is significant, even for one of the most mechanically intense genres where it's purely player vs. player. Seeing the same background or map over and over is depressing. It's significant enough that game designers will still try to give their players really lavishly made visuals, though DOTA players are eager to explain how these things don't matter.

>>376853654
Games give way to an illusion, which is all that keeps them from feeling dead. A chessboard is something material, and sometimes pretty artistic. You've also got a person across from you playing it, and the game is all the more interesting because of who you play it with. Why someone dumps an insane amount of energy or time into playing chess is beyond me, especially because it all takes place over a board.

>>376854509
>because of how easy they are to reverse.
???
To reverse rubber banding, you need to win a full 5v5 teamfight. Thats stupidly hard.

>>376854038
Because everyone in the west quit when rubberbanding came out? No one on 4chan knows anything about 7.00

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>>376854339
>magus jug cm
>losing to tide pl gyro jakiro

>>376852098
Finding new shit in games is interesting, I agree if that's the only quality a game has then it's terrible.

On the other end of the scale, staring into the same shit map for dozens, let alone hundreds or thousands of hours is what a ridiculous person does.

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ITT: hots babbies and sub 6k shitstains arguing about a game they suck at and/or don't play

>>376854721
I never claimed that

>"little advantages don't mean anything at all because of how easy they are to reverse"

>>376853009
Awesomenauts does something similar. You can last hit droids (creeps/minions) but all it does is make the gold they drop go straight to you instead of dropping to pick up.

>>376854805
It shouldn't happen.
But it happens when the CM can't play, Magnus can't land RPs and claims he is on 200 ping, Sven lacks good game sense beyond farming, and Oracle is Oracle.

why are hotfags so butthurt?

>>376855004
I remember my league friends telling me they didn't like dota because it "punishes you too hard".

>playing dota post 7.00
literally worse than league and hots at this point

>>376848987
t. 1 mmr shitter

>>376854509
but it still works exactly like that. saving one tower dive never suddenly won you the game, but making plays like that accrue into huge advantages. if you only have a little advantage then of course it doesn't mean much, that's why it's a LITTLE advantage. but that little advantage can and do quickly become a significant advantage when your supports are hitting level 6 before theirs, or your cores are completing their first key items before theirs, etc. etc.

having a bunch of little advantages is how you make sure that when something BIG happens, it happens in your favor. you (usually) get all of those little advantages through the laning phase. this doesn't even have anything to do with rubberbanding, since if nobody has a big advantage then there is no rubberband.

>>376850636
That'd be relevant if this was HotS or something where rubber banding doesn't take someone from being completely fucking useless to braindead 1v5 in 2-3 won fights. Rubber banding is shit in Dota because its heroes have insanely strong power curves and dropoffs. There are heroes that basically only exist early game and heroes that basically only exist late game. Add rubber banding and even more power spikes with talents and suddenly you have to rework every fucking hero in the game so they don't end up like Dragon Knight and be completely fucking useless.

>>376854260
i'm a support, mongoloid kun

If you could bully the offlane so hard, why did you stop? low IQ?

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p-paragon master race ww@

>playing ASSFAGGOTS
>arguing about ASSFAGGOTS

It's just RTS for babbies.

>>376855872
that game has sexy graphics

is it fun?

>>376855328
>but it still works exactly like that. saving one tower dive never suddenly won you the game

But thats absolutely wrong, Tping into the off lane and saving you LD and getting kills could literally mean your off lane could get a faster lvl5 or a midas and start to snowball out of control and destroy his offlane. The enemy team would NEVER be able to recover and this shit happened all the time i played that hero exclusively in the off lane. Then you can absolutely debate that this tping support just won you the game

>if you only have a little advantage then of course it doesn't mean much, that's why it's a LITTLE advantage. but that little advantage can and do quickly become a significant advantage when your supports are hitting level 6 before theirs, or your cores are completing their first key items before theirs, etc. etc.
Yes, right up until you introduce rubberbanding into the equation. these little advantages NEVER turn into ANYTHING because of it. thats my argument, and all of dotas first 20 min (before rubberbanding) was trying to make something out of your little advantages, and thasts where the DEPTH of the early game came from.

>>376856138
>it's just RTS for babbies
and yet nearly every RTS pro that tried to get into a moba failed miserably

>>376856227
>he cares about comp
>in a genre that has critical hits and literal RNG

c'mon my man.

>>376855290
Literally worse than fucking Guardians of Middle Earth, Dead Rising: Epidemic, Strife, and Super Monday Night Combat at this point. The original MNC was fucking amazing though.

>>376856497
but the crits only have a pseudorandom distribution. It's not actually random

>>376856139
Not as deep as doter but I have fun with it, the community is still growing and it improves all the time

>>376856602
That doesn't really matter though, the timing of a crit can be just as important as the frequency, particularly with PA where her skill can crit.

>>376856602
some is random, some is pseudo
your point being?

>>376856610
> the community is still growing

Do you have a source for that? That's the sort of thing people say when a game is actually dying and they're trying to trick people into reviving the playerbase

>>376856138
t. retard who doesnt know what he's talking about

>>376848987
This is why I play HotS if I play any moba. Just fighting and controlling objectives, no pointless farming gold for items in order to do those things.

>>376848987
Through proper last hitting and denying you can freeze your lane in place, letting you get uninterrupted farm compared a lower tier player

Dota 2 is the only assfag that gives you that level of control

>>376856789
t. babby who can't micromanage beyond one unit

>>376856798
Yeah but none of that really matters due to the rubberband, read the thread

>>376856779
No, but the game has like, zero marketing, it's still in development and it spreads slowly by word of mouth

just a few months ago it wasn't popular enough for a general, now there's one up all the time

>>376856889
good thing I'm not talking about rts then, retard.

>>376857045
>getting analblasted because someone doesn't like his shit genre

stay mad.

>>376856889
Saying moba is RTS for babys is like saying 1st person shooter is grand strategy for babys. They are completely different games.

Fuck dude why not go to a persona thread and tell them to play rts? wtf?

>>376856918
>lane equillibrium doesnt matter because rubberbanding scapegoat meme
that's wrong you fucking retard.

>>376857142
read the thread though

>>376856918
ah yes, the rubberband, or as we call it, the retarded mongoloid 1k mmr excuse

It's been a stale excuse for a while now. Maybe you shouldnt get your ass destroyed when you got 20k + networth?

>>376857126
>im mad
>not the rts shitter upset his genre is dead so he takes it out on a game he doesnt play and knows nothing about
stay retarded

>>376857231
read the thread though

>>376857250
ASSFAGGOTS are RTS you dingus. ASSFAGGOTS is just RTS with less unit management and no base building but more action instead to appeal to dipshits who can't multitask.

Moba is just a term riot made up so their shit wouldn't get compared to dota as much when in reality a more fitting term would have been ARTS for action rts.

>>376857228
I don't need to because anyone who isn't shit at dota knows "rubberbanding" does not make maintaining lane equilibrium irrelevant and all one needs to do to see this is watch the np vs sg game going on right now

>>376857557
>ASSFAGGOTS are RTS you dingus
wrong

>>376857382
I'm sorry, i have no time for your 'tism.

You gonna have to accept that your 2k opinion means shit.

>>376848987
it takes skill so only casual babbies get butthurt at it

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>>376857557
>they're RTSs just without anything that makes an RTS
So they're not RTSs then?

>>376857593
comebacks are real in this game even if your down 2 barracks, you can still just team wipe the enemy and just win, but i understand some of the bs people hate in 7.00 some heros talents are fucking retarded like tornado talent on invoker for embers level 20 talent, but this rubberband meme needs to die

>>376848987
>Last hitting

Is it just me or is this shit fucking easy and not a big deal?

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>>376848987
I tend to agree
I don't really like assfaggots stuff like farming gold and exp, buying items, and having overpowered players because they're fed
But then I realize HOTS doesn't have any of that, and it's boring as fuck
I just don't like assfaggots I guess

>>376857958
it's hard against good players

>>376857749
Sure you do, thats why you're here after all.

>>376857593
Didn't read after "I don't need to because..." if you want to stick your head in the sand thats fine. But there is an entire thread explaining how anything you do in the early game that doesn't directly win you the game is completely marginalized due to the band.

If you want to be ass blasted and provide no argument thats fine too.

>>376857684
>In an RTS, the participants position and maneuver units and structures under their control to secure areas of the map and/or destroy their opponents' assets.

>>>376857896
>insulting me but not the argument

k

It adds an element of competition to the laning phase, especially in Dota where you can deny creeps as well.

If you last hit and deny well, you will have a distinct advantage over the enemy and finish laning phase faster than them.

Games without these mechanics have laning phases which are just mindlessly killing creeps while giving the enemy some angry glances here and there, which is boring as shit.

It ALMOST always come down to a massively advantaged team taking a incredibly retarded fight, then losing because they were so ahead they didn't plan for buybacks.

That's why true comebacks are rare in actual pro games, since they are aware that even if you got 30k + networth it fuckign useless if your carry get killed alone stupidly.without a buyback.

>>376858073
and this is wrong. the opinions of 3k garbage players whining about rubberbanding means nothing

its actually a good mechanic since it brings the moment closer when you realise that these types of games are just shitty treadmills that make you fatter

>>376858112
You don't have an argument. You're just bitching that ASSFAGGOTS are RTS games while admitting yourself they have almost nothing in common.

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>>376857947
it never will until you can argue why rubber banding didn't ruin the game. Here is a little reminder though...

Enjoy playing Reddits dota Rodrigo, but no one in the west plays anymore.

>>376858172
Sorry, but im 5k

>>376858375
that's because westerners play league and shooting games

>>376858470
Westerners play league as much as everyone else in the world does. Has nothing to do with dota though, unless you're implying no one EVER played dota in the west anyway?

>>376858112
the point is there is no valid argument, I can argue that ice cream comes from chickens but that doesn't mean it's fucking valid.

>>376859070
In an RTS, the participants position and maneuver units and structures under their control to secure areas of the map and/or destroy their opponents' assets.

If you can aplly this to mobas you can apply this to games like chivalry or even cod

>>376855513
>DK
>useless
t. 1k

>>376848987
Just ignore mobashit exists like the rest of us who have taste.

>>376853709
>Fucking millennials and short attention span cunts

If I wanted to play a long game, I wouldn't be playing a moba.

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>5 man team
>only 3 lanes + jungle
>at least one person is cucked out of XP completely so that the carries can wave around their big cock at endgame

this is the biggest problem with lasthit. You end up with a support standing around with a thumb up their ass because they're not even allowed to attack the minions

>>376859845
Explain what DK does better than LC aside from applying a DoT to towers. Even pants-on-head-retarded spics can rape with her.

>>376860213
RANGED FUCKING SPLASH

>>376860213
He stuns for 3 seconds, 2.5 at level 1
He farms way faster after dragon lvl 2
He has any presence at all for the first 10 minutes of the game

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>>376860172
>league tard

>>376860134
35 minute average, 1~ hour max is not a long period of time for anyone but a child/millennial

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>>376860213
>comparing dk to lc

>>376860172
>What is harassing
>What is roaming
>What is warding
>What is stacking camps
>What is pulling creeps
There's more to supporting than babysitting.

>>376860172
in LeL yeah, you cant really roam because wards, flash

In dota? you're doing it wrong

>>376860692
All meaningless due to the band

>>376861014
wrong

>>376860692
none of those things grant XP to the support

Why does wanting to play a class that can heal or buff an ally also automatically mean you have to be a little bitch whose only allowed to prep the bulls and then go back to the cuck shed while they get last hit?

>>376858672
Different anon here, but relative to China and Europe and maybe SEA, I think it's probably true that Dota was never as popular in NA. It was - and still is - decently popular, but there's also a reason why the NA pro scene took so much longer to get off the ground, and it's not due to a lack of infrastructure like in SA or Africa.

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>>376861059
you will get exp harassing the offlaner
you will get exp if you roam successfully
stacking camps will get you exp if you and your carry are smart and kill them together later
pulling creeps grants exp and gold
bounty runes
tomes

>>376861220
>stack up 50 creeps
>carry kills 49 of them
>you kill one of them
>REEEEEEE FUCKING SHITTY SUPPORT WHY DID YOU TAKE MY FUCKING LAST HIT FUCK YOU *feeds for the rest of the game*
bravo, dota game design

>>376851136

>the laning phase and CS'ing isn't mindless, samey bullshit

That's why HotS is fun. The laning phase is gay as fuck in EVERY moba, HotS is just unique in that it acknowledges that and thus shortens the laning phase down to like 5 minutes.

>>376861014
Next time you play support try doing none of those things and see how well that works out for you and your team.

>>376861059
You should be getting passive XP while you're in the lane harassing. You should be getting XP from ganking lanes. You should be getting XP from bounty runes. You should be getting XP from pulling creeps. And if you somehow manage to be doing all of these things but also manage to always be outside of the XP radius, you can still buy tomes of knowledge to drag your levels along.

>>376861396
>things that don't happen

>>376861725
Wait, what?

If you play lower elo with children they literally act like this. They play as the victim and blame their entire team for their failures.

>>376861145
400,000 players is still more the most games ever get, to lose that many is pretty intense. Also dota1 is why it took so long for western teams to get off the ground. the scene was already dominated by the chines

>>376861057
Nice argument rodrigo

>>376861507
>implying i played support postRubberband
Once you get past 4200 games become insanely uneven, at 1st youre the shitter getting carried by some 5k and then you become the 5k carrying shitters. Its not possible to play support and win when your carry is some guy who just graduated from 4k post rubberband,

Thats really how you can detect 3k players, their games are pretty even and rubber banding doesn't effect their games very much.

>>376861841
I don't know how LoL does it, but Dota has a player behavior score to try to match shitters up with other shitters.

If you're really seeing things like this happen, you should probably stop being such an asshole in your games. Maybe then you'll start playing with people who don't throw tantrums over nothing.

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>>376862043
>If you're really seeing things like this happen, you should probably stop being such an asshole in your games. Maybe then you'll start playing with people who don't throw tantrums over nothing.

>Projecting this hard

>waaaaaaaa
>im bad
>make game easier pls

>>376862252
>game has stupid, bad mechanic

>pointing out this fact makes you bad at the game somehow

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>>376861841
i've seen a few people feed years ago because my friend would fuck with them and take the cs as support while pinging them but never what you described and I have 5500 hours

>>376852349
Balance patches only encourages players to pick the best options and cry when the best options in the game have the best returns because they're the best options.

In some ways, we were better off when we had to adapt to the rules and come up with interesting ways to deal with "broken" characters.

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>>376862337
>its stupid and bad because I say so
back to hots, babby

>>376861396
>stack up 50 creeps and low health all of them
>carry moves in for the kill
>heal wave because fuck you I'm dazzle
>they bitch and moan while going afk leaving more exp for me
Every time

>>376862397
just as keikaku for sand king

>>376862337
>a mechanic that allows players to perform better than others in a competitive game
>bad

>>376862252

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>>376862193
what am i supposedly projecting here?

nobody behaves like how >>376861396 described in my games.

Playing HotS casually > Playing DotA casually
Watching high-level HotS < Watching high-level DotA

This is objective fact.

>>376861841
>>376861725
Closest I've seen to this behavior was me as Lina and a Pudge fighting someone just behind our T1, Pudge was a bit far and missed a hook, the enemy was low on health and I dealt the finishing blow and the Pudge got mad and when he saw me moving next to a ward tower he blinked and hooked me there and said he wasn't letting me off until I said sorry

Don't remember the specifics but I'm pretty sure if I hadn't done anything the guy could have escaped, and then he would have gotten angry either way, at least we got money and he got a flesh stack, and it was still a tactical advantage of leaving someone out of the game for a minute, who cares

>>376862397
did they changed how rapier works? do you get to keep it forever now or what

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>7.0
>Can't pressure supports out of lane anymore thanks to Shrines
>A single team fight loss now results in immediate 2 rax loss if not all 3

It feels like the entire game is balanced for fucking E-Sports tournaments now. Single rank is suffering.

>>376862735
Do you even see what's going on in the Webm? It should be pretty obvious what's happening if you are familiar with dota.

>>376862775
the game is balanced for maximum streaming video entertainment value

>>376862735
No, Divine Rapier mechanics haven't changed. I'm not sure what you might be thinking of.

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>>376862628
>Playing HotS casually >
Nice try, Actiblizz intern.

>>376862775
the first is untrue and the second has always been possible

>>376862885
>>376862819
he was dead when the webm started and has 2 rapiers anyway, maybe he bought them while dead i dont know

>>376862849
This for sure

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>>376862628
>High-level HotS

>>376863137
Or maybe he just left the rapier at base only brings out the rapier when he needed it.

>>376863327
you can't drop rapiers

>>376863137
Oh, I see. Yeah, he must have got them while dead or already had them in his stash.

>>376863409
You definitely could in older versions of dota

http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Divine_Rapier

>>376863514
I remember when couriers actually drop items upon death, when it have a invincibility shield spell, and it could place wards.

And when items could be used by anybody regardless of who owned it before.

>>376862735
>>376862397
this guy is right
its easy to miss, but webm is bullshit
he starts with 2 rapiers, its some custom game mode a not a standard dota

>>376863746
it is normal dota

>>376863670
Sometimes I miss when couriers had a mana pool

Building your own air force to do fly-by Dagon zapping or parachute in Necronomicon creeps was hilarious

>>376863846
in normal games divine gets dropped unless you got aegis, and he clearly did buy back as seen not only be his bb penalty as well by him being dead in first few sec

>>376848987
This thread was started by HotS/blizz shills

Anyone else notice there's starting to be more and more HotS threads lately? Did hearthstone revenue allow blizzard to open up another shilling division for HotS or what?

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>>376864065
https://youtu.be/6ecktDlTshU

ok

>>376864065
You do know you could still buy stuff or take items from the stash while dead don't you?

>>376864065
He had two rapiers either in his stash or on the courier then just delivered them while dead

>>376850317
>Everyone would just be standing around if they weren't trying to last hit

They could fight the other team? Pushing them out of the lane all together so they could get no exp?

>>376864175
ah, 4 rapiers
explains it
didnt think they would buy this many
>>376864240
yeah, but who keeps 2 yet unused rapiers in his inventory if he has 2 slots open
the fact he already had 2 explains it

>>376864102
no fucking duh, the hots shilling is obvious as fuck

>>376864438
Gotta have backup rapiers if you're that far ahead, and he only needed the two to oneshot the entire enemy team

>>376852659
They've been shortening them you dumb cunt. You can hit level 25 so quickly now and melt towers after one ez teamfight.

>>376852659
>No because people don't want the game to end after 20 min, team reddit decided this after newbie beat EG like 3 years ago by 5 maning down mid and ending the game in 20 min every game throughout the tournament. So they have been "artificially" prolonging games with every patch.
>5 man down a lane every game in a tournament
>every game

And Dota players were too stupid to just all go mid to fight back?

>>376849831
This. People forget that DotA was literally popularized and made competitive by shitters who were terrible at actual competitive games like FGs, FPS, and RTS.

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>>376864878
yea it's really that simple

>>376865063
lol

>>376865147
You laugh but it's true. The reason League was wildly successful was because there MOBA market was clearly about casualization of competitive games.

>>376865275
except it isnt

nice meme though

>>376865398
>except it isnt
>nice meme though

It's not a meme if it's true.

>>376855053
>that time when Oracles ult made him invis and invincible
>buy dagon
>E, purge, E euls, E, Dagon

shame he isnt as good anymore, the healing, disarm, invinc ult, burst, and purge just isnt enough desu

>>376865592
ok

>>376865068
Having played a fair bit of LoL, HoN, dota, and hots I wouldn't put it past the average moba players to blindly keep farming and just assume their mid-laner can handle 5vs1

>>376865919
When I read this I want to laugh but I also feel immense pain.

>>376865919
low level players are all about everyone mid staring at each other waiting for the other side to do something

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People complaining about Dota mechanics are the same kind of people as pic related

It all comes down to: This game is too hard, therefore it's for losers.

>>376866717
I have no problem with DotA mechanics but I do have a problem with people professing to skills on a game that is 99% timesink and character knowledge. The community brings the criticism on themselves with that bullshit.

>>376866717
except people are complaining that dota is more and more casualized, the exact opposite of your pic

>>376848987
last hitting is fine
denying is fucking stupid

>>376866839
>99% timesink and character knowledge
I have a problem with people who dont know what they're talking about voicing their opinion

>>376867413
>mobas aren't mostly about just learning what every character can and can't do

>>376867195
>denying is fucking stupid
Denying is the best part of last hitting, you pleb. That's why LoL is a joke.

>>376867772
LOL and dota are pretty much the same thing nowadays, don't kid yourself.

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>>376867853

>>376867736
true

>>376848987
>lol has an item for melee supports that allow them to sometimes last hit a minion, get the full gold value for it, and give the full gold value to the nearest ally
>teammates burst all the creeps with magicks before you can even get in melee range and complete your slow melee autoattack animation

heh

>>376867736
Yeah, that's why if you have terrible awareness, positioning and execution can win some literal millions of American dollars playing dota. Just learn the heroes breh.

>>376867195
Denying is the best thing ever. Its a great feeling to dominate your opponent so hard he cant get any gold from a lane.

>>376853782
I completely disagree

Resource management is a crucial part of dota and the games like it. It's not fluff, it's not something you do during downtime. It's something you decide to do versus doing something else (pushing, pulling, participating in team fight, stacking etc.) As a carry hero especially it's up to you to prioritize where and when to get farm, efficiently, or go achieve something else.

if you think it's all about team fighting that's cool go play hots. Blizzard has been spewing out games for 1 dimensional thinkers like you since 2004

>>376868110
>Yeah, that's why if you have terrible awareness, positioning and execution

These are basic fucking skills on other genres.

>>376868370
>moving the goalpost
OK.

>>376868431
How is that moving the goalpost? I'm not the guy you responded to. I'm this guy >>376867413
and my statement still stands. I've never met someone who was good at multiple genres of competitive games including MOBA that thought MOBA "skills" were worth bragging over. The only real competition in the genre takes place amongst the top 1% players because the whole scene is diluted with retards.

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>>376868275
>replying 3 hours late
>to a HotS shill or an idiot who thinks that dota is lol
Anon please.

>>376868610
>The only real competition in the genre takes place amongst the top 1% players because the whole scene is diluted with retards.

This is true of every form of popular competition that humans participate in, from chess to tennis to football to counter strike to DotA2

99% of everything is shit

>>376868610
>bragging about playing video games
Now that's beyond sad. Except Quake, obviously.

>>376868275
>Blizzard has been spewing out games for 1 dimensional thinkers like you since 2004

Not that I disagree with this statement but MOBA players typically never leave the realm of 1 dimensional thinking. I think people get the skill ceiling confused with how the game is actually played i.e. rocket league.

I gained a new appreciation for last hits when I played heroes of the storm, where laning consists of just sitting there doing nothing until an objective happens or you have enough EXP to actually do thing.

>>376869240
specialists can start taking down towers from level 1

>>376868762
>his is true of every form of popular competition that humans participate in, from chess to tennis to football to counter strike to DotA2

Believe it or not it's not. High level play is observable in tons of competitive games which don't require copious amounts of convoluted memorization where constant nerfs and buffs are being put into place.

>>376869031
like what the fuck are you actually even on about

>>376869240
>HOTS IS FUCKING EASY AND SIMPLE JSUT TURN YOUR BRAIN OFF
>plays the game completely wrong

Everytime.

>>376869346
>High level play is observable in tons of competitive games
>tons
Name 3 that aren't Quake, Broodwar or SF.

>>376869412
That dota isn't much better than blizz crap.

>>376869452
>name 3 that aren't MOBA

Have I not proven my point?

>>376869703
you have no meaningful point to begin with

>>376869703
>Have I not proven my point?
Keyword: tons. It should be easy. Now, try to name them or I'll assume that you are a retard like I assume you are a redditor.

>>376869883
>Waaaah you hurt my feelings cuz i like moba
Chill dude. I like moba too but I dont delude myself into thinking I'm playing a real competitive game.

>>376869886
>already knows it was a dumb question

Why would I answer it?

>>376848987
Right and wrong

As it stands, its pretty boring in DotA. They could double the amount of XP and gold given and it would drastically improve the early game, as well as reduce the gametime so matches were not so drawn out and boring.

LoL does it better because its early game is more like a 'brawl' where you continuously fight the other lane trying to land a kill. Whereas DotA is more like you might get a gank once every 5 to 10 minutes.

>>376870351
>Why would I answer it?
To prove that you aren't a retarded redditor, but now is too late.

>>376849148
It's not there for any purposeful reason, it's just a quirk in how warcraft 3 worked that you wouldn't get any gold if your controllable units didn't strike the killing blow, and MOBAs are such a creatively bankrupt genre that it took over a decade for one of them to go 'hmm, maybe we shouldn't keep importing this unintentional mechanic that makes the game more tedious and annoying just because it was how a custom game in an RTS worked.'

>>376870351
post pic of your mmr

>>376870543
>Whereas DotA is more like you might get a gank once every 5 to 10 minutes.
t. sub 5k

>>376872208
It would be much easier to just show you video of SFV/CSGO silvers that have some semblance of understanding of how the game is played and compare them to the MOBA analogue where everyone thinks running around like a headless chicken is a legitimate strategy.

>>376872521
except that has nothing to do with high level play and how competitive the game is you fucking retard. you yourself are probably 4k max, if even.

>>376872631
It has everything to do with how competitive the game is. You seem to be conflating hooliganism with competitiveness.

>>376872789
>It has everything to do with how competitive the game is.
3k pubs has nothing to do with how competitive the game is.

>>376872945
>the competition has nothing to do with how competitive a game is

Right. And I'm sure golf attracts the top athletes.

>>376869240
>he doesnt gank or takes bith towers and half keep 3 mins in
Git gud niggerlodonosaurus

>>376848987
Scavenging for shit for 10 minutes is tedium for the survival shooter genre

Collecting initial resources for 10 minutes is tedious for the resource gathering rts

Waiting for ultimates in OW/ building Uber before a push/ waiting for smoke in csgo is tedious for the espurts genre

Grinding for ANYTHING in an rpg where the battle success rate based on rng/level/mechanics insures your victory and so you are just mindlessly doing shit is tedious for the RPG genre.

There you go, I have autismed my way for you so your thread can be autistic.

Now go make a great game based on your widely acclaimed argument and opinions and make millions off your ingenuity you piece of inspiration to the game industry.

I find last hitting in MOBAs pretty relaxing, though it's more relaxing in League then Dota 2 where last hitting is slightly harder because people have smaller amounts of early game auto damage.

>>376873186
not an argument

basically you're bad at the game and also don't know anything about it's esports scene yet feel the need to voice your uninformed, idiotic opinion.

>>376867736
>>376866839
isn't that what EVERYTHING is about?

File: 1362802339562.png (214KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

214KB, 600x600px

>>376848987
Lane phase isn't actually 20 minutes in either game but it especially isn't in Dota, calling it "tedious grinding" is uneducated since it's not brainless pve and you're still fighting your opponents in lane and zoning them out of their own farm, teammates acting like retards isn't a criticism for any game because it applies to any team game ever and it's solved by actually having friends, it creates an element of economy and resource management in the game where you need to constantly decide whether helping a fight/objective is worth the missed resources, and "isn't even fun or entertaining" is a non-argument opinion.

Any more stupid questions, or are we done here?

>>376850385
>keeping a mechanic that was there because of engine limitations in new entries
You'd be amazed at how many core mechanics in games you don't even think about started this way.

I bet you think Quake should patch circle jumping out

>>376850975
Because the map isn't where the variety or gameplay comes from.

>>376856889
>every game that isn't an RTS is casual shit because it's not an RTS
my favorite meme

>>376858112
>In an RTS, the participants position and maneuver units and structures under their control to secure areas of the map and/or destroy their opponents' assets.
That isn't even remotely close to a valid description of the core focus of the RTS genre.

>>376873186
except golf is played the same way every time. There aren't 100+ golf clubs that all have special powers and abilities you can utilize.

That's like saying MTG has no defining meta because all of the cards do the same shit.

Traditional sports are not designed the same way as a video game you retard.