What game series had the best transition from 2d to 3d, and what

>>376700515
obvious answer out of the way: fighting games

>>376700515
>worst
Settlers RIP

>>376700515
Metroid. Super to Prime is a massive leap that still somehow manages to keep the whole Metroid formula intact.

>>376701220

This.

On the other hand, Sonic.

>>376701378
Sonic definitely had the most awkward one. The 3D games are alright now, but what did it take for them to get there? 3D Blast, no games on Saturn, questionable quality of Adventures and Heroes, absolute trainwreck of 2006, those Wii titles nobody cares about... And with Unleashed they only got it half right.

>>376700515
Mario and Zelda are definitely the best examples.

Sonic and Mega Man the worst.

>>376702229

Man, I forgot about Megaman.

Legends was all right, but X7 was complete garbage.

mario
frogger

3d sonic ain't got shit on 3d frogger

i assumed sonic had the win easy but then i remembered frogger

>>376702229
Did controllers have analog sticks when these came out?

>>376701220
>the whole Metroid formula intact.
EHHHHHHH not really, it left out the most groundbreaking powerup the series has ever produced, as well as several other techniques. A good transition but they could've done a lot better. (Other M was a step in the right direction-- on paper. Boy did they trip and fall)

>>376701897
>The 3D games are alright now
They're certainly less buggy but I don't think they've made the meaningful leap that they could have. Sonic Utopia looks good though.

>>376700515
Pokemon's transition to 3D was awful. Both of them. D/P and X/Y are both trash.

On the other hand Mario 64 and OoT are masterpieces. It's not a Nintendo thing, it's a Game Freak thing.

>>376701897
For a leap into true 3D, Adventure was a pretty good game. It has it's shit moments but overall I think it's a good game.

Sonic's problem back then which is still their problem is that they keep experimenting with the formula rather than refining it or deviating from it only slightly like pretty much every other successful franchise does.

>>376702354
3D platformers were horrible to get used to, not having a clear view of how far things are.

Don't forget that there are series that are still stuck to 2d, like Kirby.
I hope Kirby makes the jump to 3d soon, because the games start to get repetitive and boring

Best:
Mario
Zelda
Metroid
Kid Icarus

Worst:
Sonic
Donkey Kong
Mega Man
Castlevania

>>376702386

> it left out the most groundbreaking powerup the series has ever produced
I think you're confusing groundbreaking for iconic.

But transitioning to 3D is more about making the old concepts practical than just copypasting all the old stuff without considering how well that would work.
Super Metroid's most exciting items were all about increasing your mobility and Metroid Prime followed that in spirit, with new items that worked effectively in 3D like the Boost Ball.

>>376702431
They're still horrible. I've never played a 3D platformer that was as naturally easy to grasp as a 2D one. I'm convinced it's just a flaw in human cognition and the fact that you can't truly display 3D environments on a 2D screen. I wonder if 3D platformers would be better in VR. I've only tried a shitty little Sony demo thing and it was alright but it wasn't first person so it didn't help much.

>>376702413
Pokemon hasn't really transitioned into 3D, the gameplay of the 3D games are practically identical to the 2D games. It's not like Mario or Zelda where the gameplay and level designs had to change completely.

final fantasy

it went from an okay game (ff6) to a masterpiece (ff7).

>>376702598

>I've never played a 3D platformer that was as naturally easy to grasp as a 2D one
Crash?

>>376702598
>I wonder if 3D platformers would be better in VR.
Interesting idea, but VR is moving towards teleporting around like a portal gun.
If you did a first person platformer in VR, which on theory is fucking awesome, people would get sea sick playing very quickly.

>>376702413
I disagree on Pokemon, purely on the basis of what makes a poor transition to 3D. Pokemon only really completed the transition to 3D with the last two games. And even then, the basic function of the game itself has never really changed. It's a textbook example of a painless transition.

That said, there are obvious problems that have come up directly related to the transition. Not a mechanical ground, like Sonic or Megaman not being able to figure it out, but from problems related to the jump in production values and 3D map creation. Gamefreak is clearly shit at handling a proper 3D production and the games have steadily been getting worse, not better, performance on the 3DS. SM looked nice, but the actual pathing on the maps were shit and there was only the barest hint of puzzles popping up by the end of the game. Nothing on the scale of even the shittiest dungeons of the other games. The actual typical transition is fine, Pokemon is not the kind of game you need to reinvent to get right in 3D. Gamefreak is just incompetent and insane, putting tons of effort into stuff like ridiculous Poly models and making unique and character filled walking designs they then shove into the game without optimization or just don't utilize at all.

It's honestly baffling.

>>376702650

I think you have things back to front there pal.

Also that's kind of irrelevant to this thread. Final Fantasy's gameplay didn't really change in the transition to 3D.

>>376702610
The maps, models, Pokemon, and all the world assets are 3D. The camera is 3D as well, though it has a fixed perspective. What exactly would constitute a move to 3D for you? A change in the battle system? A free camera?

>>376700515
Rayman had a pretty good transition, as did Gex.
Shame about Murphy though, he almost single handedly ruined Revolution and Hoodlum Havoc.
Rayman has gone back to 2D, so I'm not sure if it counts

>>376702597
>I think you're confusing groundbreaking for iconic.
No, the spinny screwball power-up is iconic, the speed booster is groundbreaking.

>>376702743
>>376702413
Its more about 3D gameplay, not just 3D models in custscenes.
You see 3D, but don't play 3D.

>>376702702
>It's honestly baffling.
Not really. They're pretty bad developers that were lucky enough to have Nintendo carry them to success. Just look at how Iwata essentially saved Gen 2.

>>376701897
>3d games are alright now
Oh yeah lets play that glorified endless runner piece of shit.

>>376702756

Ah, I had a guess you meant the speedbooster but it wasn't clear so I assumed you meant the screw attack like everyone else.
Yes, we agree about the speedbooster. The speedbooster was really great but I don't know how it could have worked in Prime.
The speedbooster is one of the few things that Other M got right. When it wasn't putting speedbumps everywhere, anyway.

>>376702756
Well you do break a lot of ground in a short period of time.

>>376702650

FF7 was barely a transition. 3D didn't really result in any significant change to the gameplay and that's probably why they've been struggling with the series ever since.

>>376702386
Metroid Prime still maintains that feel of isolation, progression and exploration that the Metroid series is known for. Speed boosting and shinesparking simply won't work in 3D because players don't have the same perception that they do in a 2D game. You have a fairly large field of view in a 2D platformer so you can move at quite a fast pace and still take everything in easily. With a 3D game, you have a limited field of view so if you want to make a player move very quickly you have to make the environment empty and open (both of which go against Metroid's level design principles). While the Prime games lack the speed of the 2D games, that's unavoidable and they make up for it by having a greater emphasis on atmosphere and puzzle-solving.

>>376702826
Let's not start this discussion again, at least not in this thread.

>>376702657
Nah, I still wouldn't say so. Don't get me wrong, Crash is a great platforming series, but I think in general 3D simply isn't as easy to use for platforming as 2D, no matter how well designed it is. It's simply a function of translating a 3D space to a 2D screen. The only ones that avoid it are 2.5D games because obviously those are just 2D games with 3D models.

>>376702682
Yeah, you're probably right. I've played first person VR games with motion but it's always been on rails.

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>>376702229

>>376700515

I'd say Zelda has on the merit it transitioned to two different approaches and both successfully. The OoT style and the Botw style.

>>376703015
>Yeah, you're probably right. I've played first person VR games with motion but it's always been on rails.

The game would make you feel you are moving, while your body is telling you that you are sitting in one place.
Thats textbook sea sickness. Its like VR was designed as a sea sickness test, really.
Especially if you jump, thinking you are moving upwards while your legs are still on the ground would cause you to lose balance too.

>>376702872
Noob bridge: groundbreaking level design. hehehe

>>376702927
It could've worked if it was a mouse & keyboard shooter. You ever play a surf map? Or Tribes? Super fun stuff, just tone it down a tad and you got something.

>>376702927

Metroid Prime gets pretty fast once you learn the subtleties of morph ball boosts, jumps and dashes, and know where all the shortcuts are.
Remember that, for a first time player, Super Metroid is a very slow and measured experience. It takes a while to get accustomed to the low gravity but once you do it makes the initially awkward level design perfect for traversing quickly.
Metroid Prime may not be as fast, but it definitely has the same kind of skill curve.

>>376700515
Worst is Metroid by far, just look at Ither M.

Best is probably Bubsy.

>>376702507
>Donkey Kong

I felt like DK64 was a great game mechanically, it was just the level design and too much focus on collectables that bogged it down

it wasn't a bad game at all.
DKCR and Tropical Freeze were amazing, but I wouldn't mind if they made another full 3D Donkey Kong game again

GTA was great

>>376702743
A game has 3D gameplay if it utilises features that are only available in 3D games and not 2D games (like a first-person perspective, extensive camera control, levels that utilise all three dimensions, etc.). You couldn't put Bobomb Battlefield, Stone Tower or Tallon IV into a 2D Mario, Zelda or Metroid game because they all rely heavily on the game being 3D. But there isn't any part of the core gameplay in Pokemon that could only be done in 3D, it's only the optional mini-games like the Pokefinder.

>>376703054
Were they really all that different, at their core? BotW changed up the way the game progressed, but were the actual 3D mechanics all that different from OoT?

Castlevania is a good contender for worst

>>376703417
Pokemon's barely moved an inch since Red and Blue. Mario 3 has about as much innovation in Mario as Sun and Moon does in Pokemon.

>>376702702
I disagree with you there. I'd say that Diamond and Pearl began the transition to 3D given that it was the first game to have 3D assets. And boy did those assets look terrible. The colors were faded and washed out, the DS hardware made it all look terrible, there were jaggies all over the place, and it even ran at 30fps. After the gorgeous, vivid 2D graphics and smooth, responsive animations in Emerald it was a real disappointment for me.

Also, the shift to 3D necessitated the addition of loading zones in a lot of places, something that was successfully eliminated in Gen 3. Another technical downgrade.

And I'm sure you know how bad the 3D models in battle went, their good poly count is completely slaughtered by the screen resultion and having more than two on screen causes serious lag. And triple battles even had to be cut because the game can't even support all the models on the screen.

Game Freak are pretty poor developers on the technical side of things so it's not surprising that in my view, their flagship series had one of the worst transitions to 3D. I have full confidence that future moves to be even more 3D will cause more problems.

>>376702790
You walk around in a 3D space though. The overworld is fully 3D now. And the battle screen is fully 3D as well. Or do you mean there should be a jump button, or a controllable camera? Or a new battle system that uses a 3D space and movement?

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>>376700515

Bomberman had a pretty good one. I actually don't understand why they didn't keep making more games like Bomberman 64 alongside the standard 2D Bomberman gameplay rather than trying to mix them together.

>>376703516
They're very different when it comes to level design. By simply adding a jump button and the ability to climb, BotW ended up making the levels far more open than the older 3D games, where you were forced to traverse an area down a fairly strict path.

>>376703117
I see, that makes sense. The game I was talking about was a rail shooter where you sit in a rollercoaster. Makes sense that the game has the character in a sitting position when you put it that way.

>>376703617
Fair, having to design a 3D world along those lines is a rather massive leap from what there was before, even from earlier 3D Zeldas. I suppose I'm comparing it to, say, the lock on system of OoT and the sheer groundbreaking nature of that.

>>376703571
>Or do you mean there should be a jump button, or a controllable camera? Or a new battle system that uses a 3D space and movement?
I'm not saying that the series SHOULD change to compensate the fact that it's 3D. I was simply saying that the games don't have 3D gameplay and it can't really be seen as a transition to 3D. It's simply a 2D game with 3D assets, like the recent Kirby, Yoshi and Donkey Kong games or like Zelda ALBW and New Super Mario Bros.

>>376703417
I see what you mean. Well, you can't expect Game Freak to actually innovate or make anything new, they're a one trick Japanese studio that owns a cash cow IP. They're so afraid to change up the formula that they actually throw out new features added in older games. They actively prevent the games from evolving and only the bare minimum required by competing games drags them kicking and screaming into the realm of a few years ago. And they keep selling gangbusters because their IP is so strong. It really makes me wish a different studio got to work on the mainline series, there are a lot of good Pokemon spinoffs that show what a real studio can do with the IP.

>>376703617
Ah, but OoT does have the ability to jump.
I'm not sure if you would consider people using the jump slash/side hop/back flip to transverse rooms as a failure of the linear level design or not, but you can certainly do it, and it does change the paths by which you can navigate the levels.

>>376704071
It's quite clear that the developers never intended you to use those techniques to sequence break. The world/dungeon was never designed around jumping, unlike in BotW.

>>376704071
You're a loony if you think OoT's gimped little side hops are the same thing as an honest-to-god jump button.

>>376704174
And you're loony if you don't understand how much mobility and sequence break potential they actually give you.

>>376704168
Do you think maybe that BotW's design is due to the developers being aware of all the crazy skips the community has found over the years and then going
"fine, we'll just put that shit in the intended design"

Super Mario 3D World made the best transition into 3D.

"Metroid" Prime made the worst transition. So much shit was lost. Gameplay was totally different. Designs were totally different and generic. Story was unrelated. All around terrible transition. Even Other M did it better.

Doom for sure, Doom 2 to Doom 3 was really sad.

>>376704476

Doom was already kind of 3D.

>>376700515
Worst is metroid. Kid icurus got the better and more faithful reboot

>>376704476
>>376704513
Doom 1-2 is a good contrast to the earlier discussion.
Its 2D presentation, but 3D gameplay.

>>376703151
Any faggot who defends metroid without a screw attack or high jump can't be taken seriously. Also no enemy platforming

>>376700515
>best
Probably Mario or Zelda.
>worst
Kirby

>>376704350
No, otherwise they wouldn't force the main quest for leaving the plateau

>>376704513
It's technically 2D.

>>376704736

2D games tend not to have circle strafing.

I'd say gameplaywise it resembles 3D more than 2D.

>>376704794
Yes, but it is technically not a 3D game. I would casually consider it 3D though.

This.
>>376701051
>>376702507

>>376702650
I second that.

>>376704350
No. BotW's design was due to a younger developer questioning Aonuma why certain things had to be done a certain way and Aonuma couldn't properly justify why. Also they took inspiration from the first Zelda.

>>376700515
Honestly zelda is probably the best.
Even SM64 isn't half as padded with nostalgia fans as OOT is.

I guess metal gear series as well, bomberman did well with bomberman hero.

>>376704846
Technically it is a 2D game in the same way that New Super Mario Bros is technically a 3D game. Doom is a 2D game with 3D gameplay, just like F-Zero or Star Fox.

>>376705125

Star Fox has 3D rendered polygons, it's absolutely a 3D game.

Best: Ninja Gaiden
Worst: Street Fighter (EX or IV/V, doesn't matter)

>>376705031
I mean more the way individual challenges work rather than the overall progression.
Shrines for instance seem to be made with the mindset that any way the player manages to complete the challenge is the correct way
And the area design around many overworld challenges is such that you can just completely skip them by going around, like the springs of power and courage, even though the devs clearly understood this which is why they chose to have the zora section be in constant rain at first.

metal gear

>>376702417
This.

As for the topic itself:
Best transition:
Zelda
Mario
Metroid
Rayman
Ninja Gaiden

Worst:
Megaman
Earthworm Jim
Bubsy
Castlevania

>>376700515
On Nintendo?
Worst, Super Mario Bros
A mute Mario is a good Mario. Now he's fucking annoying to play with, does stupid dancing where he shouldn't, even the enemies in the game fucking dance to shitty ´BAH BAH'. Mario Kart games are riddled with stupid 'tricks' you do in mid are, oh what's that? MORE stupid dancing and shitty voices.

Best, The Legend of Zelda

>>376708545
HYAAAAH
HYyayAAAH HYAAAAT HYAAAAAAAAAT
AAAAAAAAAAHHH

>>376707420
>castlevania
try playing Pandora's Tower it's basically 3d castlevania done right

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>>376700515
Memelords will say that Sonic made the worst transition but the true answer is Earthworm Jim. Earthworm Jim 64 was rancid fucking trash. Bubsy doesn't count because his 2D games were shit too.

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Mystical Ninja starring Goemon is the best fucking game in the series. The 2D Platformers don't stand up to it