IIT we laugh at blizzard's clusterfuck balance changes.

Hearthstone
>the entire game

>>376498331
SC2?

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Solider 76:
20 damage per shot - 19 damage per shot

Blizzard actually has no idea what they are doing when it comes to game balance. They just change shit around every few months to change the meta and keep the game relatively interesting. They've been doing this for years.

>>376498779
did they ner4f 76 recently?
i havent played that game in months
its so boring

>brewmaster
>blackout strike cooldown changed from 2 second cooldown to 20 second cooldown (casting tigerpalm will lower the cooldown of blackout strike by 1 second with a 30% chance to lower the cooldown by an additional second)

one week later
>blackout strike reverted back to 2 second cooldown.

or the tier set bonus for brewmaster
>attacks have a chance to clear a percentage of your stagger
a week later changed to
>attacks have a chance to make your next effuse(your heal) instant cast
a week later changed to
>attacks have a chance to spawn a gift of the ox orb

they truely don't know what the fuck they are doing to an impressive degree. we're talking NO PLAN AT ALL. Just throwing random ideas at the wall and seeing what happens.

>>376498331
first/third person SC game when?

>>376500904
You're right. I just want to fuck zerg up with a viking

>>376498779
This change is so retarded because it basically does nothing. On the other hand they nerfed one of the 3 heroes that can deal with pharah... and she is still untouched and going apeshit as she pleases.

>>376501615
Wait is Pharah worth playing again? Might come back to it because she's my favorite character but she ended up worthless and I don't want to play Mercy all day.

>>376502227
if there isn't a hitscan character who is looking out for her, she basically cannot die now, and even then she's still fucking annoying

>>376502317
Good, thanks.

>>376498331
What has been the reasonings for all these back and forth changes?

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>>376498331
zerg is the most underpowered race in sc2.try to debate me you cant.

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>>376502984
>What has been the reasonings for all these back and forth changes?
blizzard doesnt know WHAT THE EVER LIVING FUCK it wants to do with the hydralisk. it is a bastard unit. even in SC1 the hydra was dogshit at everything. SC2 i guess it has a role at least vs toss and air.

>>376504287
>>376504287
how to win every zvp ever easily
>make mutas
>if the protoss doesn't immediately build 2 stargates + fleet beacon + phoenix range, just keep building mutas and trade for free and win.
>if you spot the stargates, immediately switch to mass hydra. do not make more than 12 mutas in total.
there, whatever the protoss pumps out is countered by hydras. just a move.

zerg is literally an a move race and far from the most up race. try protoss for up race.

>>376498912
they said this in an interview.

I'm paraphrasing but
>we make some tweaks to numbers and then we go make a PTR server and test this
>we keep doing this until we like it

It's like the thought doesn't even seem to cross their mind that they should maybe plan things out or something.

>>376504778
>ZvP
>Making Mutas
>Ever

Mutas are effectively an autoloss in ZvP. You give them free license to transition into stargate and lose to Carriers.

>>376504778
try this while the enemy stalkers either kill your mutas with the photon cannon or just until the protoss starts base trading :^)

>>376504778
why would you go the retard stargate route against mutas?you bronze?why not just make archons their splash damage and bonus damage against biological units make a short work of mutas.

>>376504758
> even in SC1 the hydra was dogshit at everything

I don't think you played SC1. It's great against ground that could be kited (zealots) and it destroys air. There are entire strategies based on massing hydras against an early expanding protoss.

>>376505053
carriers can be sniped by enough mutas provided they don't have a critical mass. but if they have the time to build 5 or 6 of them because you fly mutas over them, then the fault is yours. (and if they make just 3, build a bunch of corruptors, until they get a critical mass you can snipe them, then piss on buildings).
just make hydras and push before he can make a critical mass of carriers. gg ez.
>>376505091
snipe canons because your muta flock will one shot them. when stalkers come, fly to impassable terrain or another base. blink has a cd. you'll have way enough time to ravage a mineral line.
in case of base trade, well, up to you. drop a hydra lair and lurker den for defense, it's not like they cost so much.

>>376505209
>lol dont be retarded just make the slowest protoss unit with the shortest range vs the fastest zerg air unit, and just hope he flies into your archon ball!
good luck chasing mutas over cliffs, water and such with archons. and if they use them defensively (hide in mineral line), just make more mutas until you can one shot them. mutas regen faster than shields.

>>376505347
Literally nobody makes Mutas in ZvP. They haven't since LotV came out. Mutas are a dead unit, they're only ever used in ZvZ.

>>376505457
they still do.

but they're stupid enough to keep making them when you pull out your thors and leave the light AA splash damage attack on.

then its gg

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>>376504287
i cant cuz its true

>>376498439
some brawls kinda fun tho

>>376505668
>tfw won against zerg as protoss last match.

pretty gud

>>376504758
>even in SC1 the hydra was dogshit at everything
Hydra is Zerg bread and butter in SC1 kiddo.

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>>376498331
>Soldier 76 attack damage is changed from 20 to 19

>>376501615
>>376498779
His damage getting dropped by 1 seems like a reasonable nerf when getting his damage buffed by 3 was enough to take him from never picked to almost mandatory.

>>376502984
The hydralisk is kinda redundant.
- bottlenecked by being lairtech while queens are hatch tech and cost no gas at all making them the cost efficient choice
- corruptors are just better against air armies
- hydras blow against ground armies even with upgrades, because terran bio dps is untouchable and protoss has storm and generally tougher units

People don't make hydras so Blizzard does these pointless tweaks that do nothing thinking it will somehow create an incentive to make gas-expensive glass cannons that require an upgrade to not be outranged by stalkers. Then Blizzard added lurkers into the game, but lurkers kinda blow too so that did nothing.

>>376498439
The core game mechanic is bad, so the game itself can't be good.
Its that simple.

>>376500904
Isn't every SC technically a 3rd person game?

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>>376504758
Nigger what?

Hydralisks were one of the 3 core units of the Zerg, the other two being Zerglings and Mutalisks.
Zerg were built around those units, and the rest of the units were basically just there to support those 3 in some function.

SC2 fucked up by introducing the roach thus pushing Hydras into an awkward position where they no longer really had an intuitive role, and by neutering the mutalisks so no the triumvirate of Zerglings, Hydras and Mutalisks no longer worked that well.
Hydralisks suffered the most.

Roaches were a fucking mistake. The very idea of them goes against the basic gist of zerg units, which is numerous, fragile and fast. Roaches are weird early game tanks that the zerg really do not even need.

>>376506804
if you were to fire 10 shots thats only 190 damage not 200

which means soldier 76 takes about .01 seconds longer to kill a low hp hero.


I honestly don't know, maybe he did high headshot damage? he has like 1000 damage per mag changing to 950... maybe that's a big deal

>>376507035
And the reason why Hydras are lair tech is because for some asinine reason Blizzard decided that Roaches should take the role of Hydras.

Easy fucking fix for Hydralisks:
Make them cheaper OR make them more fucking effective by increasing their damage output, speed or something and most importantly, BRING THEM BACK TO HATCHERY TECH LEVEL.

If they want to make the roaches early game tanks, fine, but that doesn't mean that Hydras should be fucking Lair tech, in which you can make Corruptors and shit if you need to deal with air.

>>376502227
Phara is the ultimate carry hero - she has no hard counters.

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>>376507336
truth, I was saying the same thing back in wol days. It was such a clunky, especially moreso back then with the utter trash range.

Also no scourge was a slap in the face.

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>>376498331
Zerg gameplay design is fucking dumb in general in SC2.
I absolutely fucking detest the queens and how they work, and it seems like Blizzard has no idea what to do with the Zerg support units, other than make lame copies of SC1 and BW units.

The only good new Zerg unit SC2 added is the banelling, everything else is either shit, doesn't work, or is just a neutered copy of a SC1 unit.
Picture sorta related. These things are fucking shit and Blizzard doesn't fucking know what to do with them.

>>376505347
>>376505540
>t. bronze

>>376507672
until they make McRee relevant again

>>376507727
Yeah, lack of Scourges is fucking bullshit.
They were one of the most fun units in SC1 and fit the Zerg extremely well with the whole cheap and expendable units thing.

Corruptors are such a lame fucking replacement for anti air unit.
Also, fuck Blizzard for removing all the mutations from the fucking MUTAlisk. It was such a cool trait that they could evolve into two different new units, to combat different types of threats.

>>376507739
"Oh boy, I can't wait to be a useless pile of shit and contribute nothing!"

There's never been a single instance where I've though, "wow, I could really use a Swarm Host" right now".

Fuck, even in coop it never gets touched,

It's only just now that Sc2 feels sorta balanced as zerg, WoL and HotS was fucking terrible.
Just felt like zerg had no fucking options.

>>376507996
It's useful against terran mech and baseharass with a hidden nydus nearby

>>376507996
Yeah.
Swarmhost should actually fucking create a SWARM of those locust gits, not just a fucking pair of them.
Like 4 of them AT LEAST.

>>376508070
Sounds super expensive and inefficient senpai.

>>376508070
>nydus
>hidden

>>376507996
Swarm Hosts are literally the meta right now in ZvP.

>>376508176
Are you from 2015?

>>376498331
Vanilla wow - Undead rogues

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I absolutely hate everything about SC2 Zerg, because they don't feel like a natural evolution of Brood War's zerg in terms of gameplay and design.

I even wrote an autismal pasta about how I'd redesign the Zerg if I were given the power to do so:

>Focus more on the whole "advanced units morph from basic ones" thing. In fact, I would make all the combat units, outside of the Ultralisk, be morphs of the basic 3 combat units (that are the Zergling, Hydralisk, and the Mutalisk), with caster & support units morphing directly from larva.
>Rework the Queen to be more of an army support unit, instead of a fucker that sits at your base that you gotta click ever 30 seconds.
>Further focus on mobility, spreading creep, and turning the map against the opponent via it.

Regarding the first point, I'd scrap the roach, and replace it with a relatively tough, quickly regenerating morph of the Zergling, whose role would be basically the same; being meat shields for other zerg units that can tie enemy forces up so that other Zerg units can do their magic. The basic Zergling would retain it's scout, fast assault and harassment roles and I'd keep the banelling pretty much as it is.

I'd make the Hydralisk the core t 1.5 ranged combat unit of the Zerg again by making it a bit less of a glass cannon. As for it's morphs, I'd keep the Lurker, and I would also ad a new morph, that would epitomize the burrowed moving thing (right now, roach is in a weird spot of being both a tanky, and also being an unit that is supposed to sneak around by moving under ground)
This unit would actually be faster under ground, than it is above it, and give it the ability to violently burst out of ground doing damage to any units who are close to it as it emerges. Attack wise, I'd give it a short ranged, splash damage attack. You'd use the burrowed movement of this unit to close in with enemy formations/worker lines and burst out of ground in order to start dealing damage.

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>>376508353
As for flyers, I'd keep mutalisk basically the same as it is, however I'd give it back the ability to morph into more advanced flyers. I'd make the Brood Lord a mutation of the Mutalisk, and bring back the Devourer, with some changes to it that would make it more interesting (for example, it could get the ability to bombard ground locations with acid spores sorta like the Ravagers now have.)
I'd scrap the corruptor, at least as it is in it's current form as it is boring as fuck. The model is pretty sweet though, so maybe it could be used for another, flying support unit, that is more befitting of the name. Maybe give it back the ability to turn enemy flyers it attacks into immobile timed turrets like it originally had via a low damage attacks, so you'd need other flyers to support it, and maybe even give it the ability to spew "ink" at foes to blind them momentarily (it's a flying squid after all). The Caustic spray could stay as it's ability as well.
The Viper is ok unit as it is, so I don't really think it would need to be changed much.
Finally, I'd bring scourges back, as they were pretty much perfectly designed units, fit the Zerg exceptionally well, and they resulted in super intense gameplay. I will never understand why Blizzard removed them.

Regarding the rest of the ground based units, I'd keep the Ultralisk as it is, but I would merge the Swarm Host and the Infestor. The Swarm Host as it is, is a boring as fuck unit that fails to fill any real role, and the infestor is just confused as what it wants to be. I'd remove the Infestor's spawn marines and neural parasite abilities, and instead give it the ability to spawn a swarm of locusts, and also cast an AOE spell, that would cause any unit that dies within it's area of effect during it's duration, to spawn short lived broodlings. I'd keep the fungal growth and moving underground abilities on it though.

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>>376508406
I'd rework the queen so that she would be less of a base nanny and more of a combat support unit, in the following ways:
First off, in order to spawn larvae, she would need to "nest" on any location with creep. Doing it would make her immobile, but would allow her to start spawning larvae around herself very rapidly at the cost of energy. This way, you'd be able to make proxy production centers with queens. In addition, I'd change her healing spell to be am AOE boost to the regeneration of zerg units and structures for a period of time. That way, the units could rapidly heal even in combat. I'd also give her the ability to lay clutches of "eggs" on the creep that would spawn a short lived swarm of locust like bugs if an enemy came too close to them. I'd keep the creep tumor ability as it is.
In addition, I'd give her the ability to "evolve" two times into a more powerful queen, which each "tier" being based on the level of your Hatchery. Simply put, Hatchery=basic queens, Lair=can upgrade the queens once, Hive=can upgrade the queens twice. Each upgrade would cost increasing amounts of resources, but would also improve the queen and her abilities.

I would also, make the creep even more active entity in the Zerg gameplay, via giving the creep tumors themselves the ability to morph further, via small resource costs. These morphs would give the creep various qualities in an area around the tumor, for example, cause the creep to slow down enemy movement, or maybe even emit vision blocking smog, thus making advancing into Zerg territory even more hazardous venture for hostiles.

My goal with these changes, would be to make the Zerg feel more like an evolution of the BW Zerg, instead of a weird, bastardized version that the current Zerg feel to me. Of course, this ultimately just boils down to opinions, but in my opinion, these changes would result in both far more interesting, and far more zergy gameplay, than what we currently have.

>>376508168
Are Nydys channels even worth using?
You can hardly be sneaky with them given how they alert everyone to their presence.

>>376508862
Nydys worms*

>>376498331
>giant mushroom men buffed

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>>376508353
>>376508406
>>376508428
I appreciate your autism anon kun

>>376508428
ahahaha
>send an army of your new tanky zergling
>send one queen
>game ends at minute 5
nice game you got there

also corruptors are the only anti air zerg have, changing them for the scourges is stupid

>>376509198
Obviously adjustments etc should be made to cost, exact health etc to keep things ballanced, hence I didn't make any concrete numbers.
And "tanky" is a matter of perspective. Tankier than basic Zerglings maybe, but that doesn't make things significantly tougher.

>also corruptors are the only anti air zerg have, changing them for the scourges is stupid
Hence I'd bring back Devourers as a form of Mutalisk Evolution, and probably bring them to Lair tier, so mutas could evolve to Devourers imedeately.

Scourges are far more interesting anti air than the corruptors are anyways. Corruptors are dull as fuck hence I'd change them into disruptive flying support units.

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>>376508353
>>376508406
>>376508428

>when a random guy on 4chen has better design ideas than blizzard

>>376509696
Dark days. All we got was self-insert characters and shit design from blizzard.

>>376498331
It looks like a clusterfuck if you take it out of context, but the game has been adding new units and new changes to other units as well, so Hydralisk is probably one of those that had to be changed because of other units constantly to keep the unit relevant

>>376509186
>>376509696
Thanks.

I have a passion for RTS games, not for competitiveness necessarily, though that is a good thing too, just not my personal cup of tea, but for the sense of exploration of the map, expansion, and fighting. My favorite phase of Broodwar matches, is the early game, where engagements are small and quick, and happen all around the map, and where players are seeking to expand to new resource sites. Once the "borders" of the territories have been pretty much set, and tech level increased to end game units, things always get dull imo.

I wish that there was an RTS that really captured the feeling of exploring an unknown landscape, discovering new resources, and encountering foes and fighting them in fast and brutal skirmishes, that first made me love Broodwar.

I think that a big part of it was that fog of war in old RTS games was just blackness that hid an unexplored map underneath it. If I were ever to design an RTS, I'd bring that feature back. The modern, "shows terrain but no enemies" style of fog of war takes away the mystery and discovery of an unknown terrain.

>>376507086
Not true, Shadowverse is amazing.

But I can agree on Hero Powers, 7 minion slots and there not being a good natural option to deal with tempo/aggro are all mistakes.
Especially Hero Powers. Hunter and Warrior will forever be the best ones and Rogue forever the worst one.

>>376509864
I hate how Raynor and Kerrigan romance was shoehorned into SC2.
It was like Mentzen was reliving his own crappy relationships trough the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBO6yC5FdTM

>>376509864
>>376510351
Remember that Starcraft's story was always ultimately about a boy meeting a girl :-)

>>376510029
you would have to make all maps random too or people would just learn them like they did with LT etc

>>376508428

I love your ideas, your version of Zerg actually sounds fun to play unlike what we got in SC2.

>>376510029

Sounds like you should just play Civilization.

>>376498331
delet this

;_; it hurts

pls dont fuck up the starcraft hd remake blizz just change nothing and it will be good

>>376510478
True, though in competitive games, that would probably be a hindrance.

>>376510481
Thank you. The goal with those ideas for me was about making the SC2 zerg feel like a natural evolution of SC1 zerg and play appropriately "zergy". Right now, they do not feel like BW Zerg at all.

>>376510575
I do play Civ games as well, and in them again, my favorite phase is the early game, where map is unexplored and fights are skirmish like.
Once the game transitions to mid and late game, it gets dull to me.

My first RTS was Starcraft Brood War, and even to day, the way early game map exploration, frantic fights and expansion work, is fun as fuck to me. I usually just comp stomp and play friendly matches because I am not good enough to play competitively online and also because I always try to play a new map so I have the same feeling of exploring the unknown every match.

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RTS should never be balanced for the pro scene unless there is a very broken unbalance like 70% win for a race.

this is because the balance team is not composed of pro-player and they don't understand what the fuck they are doing.

the game will balance itself unless it's completely broken.

the main focus should be making the game fun.
if the game is fun people will want to play it competitively.


captcha was LOCUST

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>>376510351
This video is criminally under-viewed to this day, such a damn shame.

>>376507672
>no hard counters
widowmaker, mccree, 76

>>376510948
Terran buildings honestly should have the ability to fucking land atop of enemy units and do MASSIVE DAMAGE to them.
Any enemy dumb enough to let them fly a fucking command center over their army deserves to get squished.

>>376508406
>The Viper is ok unit as it is
Blinding cloud though. It's such a binary ability:
A) you use it on units that can move, it's completely useless
B) you use it on units that can't move (99% of the time this means siege tanks), it completely shuts them down

>>376510948

This is not really true. The devs for sc2 were just completely incompetent. Every change between sc1 and sc2 made the game worse. Except banelings, which are just scourge ground units.

Every unit in sc1 had a place in the army. Every new unit in sc2 makes the game way fucking worse and creates balance problems because the new units don't fit correctly into the races' armies - reavers to colossus. Goliath to Thor. Lurkers to swarmhosts (and then they put in lurkers anyway LOL). Roaches replaced hydras. Mothership, then mothership core added as a fucked up stupid arbiter to fix the balance problems of protoss without actually making real changes to the game. Stalkers instead of dragoons, breaking the strength of protoss's main ground army.

Not to mention the fuckstupid armor types. All they did was make it so that having the "armored" tag is a huge disadvantage.

David Kim is a retarded chimp fuck.

>>376511119
76 struggles to kill a phara if she has any form of healer focusing on her, wheras McRee/Widow will reliably 1-2shot her even through a pocket mercy

>>376511469
Yeah, some of it's abilities need a rework.
I dunno, maybe the blinding cloud should work more like the natural line of sight obstructions on the map, as in you could "paint" an area with the stuff to hide your units in it or something?

>>376511484
It's funny how both expansions gave terran a replacement for the siege tank that's simply better in every way. The mine is cheap as fuck in exchange for consistency and forces detection. The liberator isn't cheaper but it's more flexible, super consistent and forces anti-air. So terran essentially has three units doing the same thing, where the original is easily the worst and least used.

>>376511941
Zerg can destroy liberators with ravagers

>>376511856
It would make more sense if it wasn't a static cloud but instead stuck to units that were inside the targeted area, and it halved their range instead of reducing it to 1.

>>376511941

this

there are a bunch of units in every race that covers the same fucking role

>>376511484
This.
SC1 armies by large, had great internal synergy.
SC2, not so much. Everything feels wonky and off.

If we use Terrans as example, roughly speaking, you could build a functional army out of any of the 3 main unit production structures, be it infantry based, mech based, or air based, because each structure produced everything related to infantry, mech and air units respectively.

In SC2 tho, things are fucking wonky.
For a functional infantry army, you need to tech to air because the only source for healing is a FUCKIGN AIR UNIT, for example.

>>376512262
True.

>>376510091
Shadowverse has a lot less random and also a bit more decision making with that empower or upgrade thing. Lelstone is just who can the luckiest and pray that half your spells hit the target you want.

>>376511941
>>376512301
Yeah.
Plus, many of the new units are just reskinned, and neutered versions of BW units (protoss Disruptors to Reavers for example), or in the case of Lurkers, just fucking BW units.

>>376498779
>>376506804
If that's hard to understand this means the same:

>Soldier 76 attack damage reduced by 5%

>>376500904
Starcraft Ghost was almost a thing, would have been like C&C Renegade. Sadly Blizzard canned it.

>>376512347
>For a functional infantry army, you need to tech to air because the only source for healing is a FUCKIGN AIR UNIT, for example
Don't they have infantry medics?

>>376512793
Not in SC2 for some retarded reason.

>>376512347
Terran in SC2 is awkward because making shit out of the factory is slower, more expensive and produces units that aren't as reliable as bio.

>>376513052
Yeah.
Fucking WHY did they remove goliaths?
They were the cornerstone of Terran mech.
Vikings are fucking RETARDED units that don't fill the role of Goliaths anyways, and Thors are far too fucking expensive to fill the role Goliaths did.

>>376512347

This is a horrible argument. Terran bio was largely useless on its own in BW, you always needed tanks, and Science Vessels are absolutely mandatory for any late game situation. Protoss always needs to built Robotics Facility for Observers, which ironically are a FUCKING AIR UNIT. You can't build an army with just Robotics though because the only actual combat unit in there is the Reaver. And Zerg is hopeless without Mutalisks no matter what your main force is composed of.

>>376508353
>>376508406
>>376508428
I like these ideas except for the Queen. Maybe I'm alone on this but I really like Queens in SC2. It's a pain exhausting drones just to very slowly gain another 3 larvae. Having a queen means I can protect against overlord scouting or an early rush without having to tech into lair or evo too soon. If hydra stayed as a T1 unit this wouldn't be a problem though.

>>376513365
Obviously, you had to build units from other production structures as well.
My point with the terrans was not necessarily about the entire army composition, more about how each unit type and primary functions related to those units, had clear synergy with the production structure responsible for those units.

As in Barracks produced marines and shit you needed to heal marines in this rough example.

>>376513510
My problem with the queens is more to due with just how fucking boring the unit is because her primary function is to just be a base nanny you return to every 30 seconds to make her fuck a hatchery.
It is dull, and I'd rather see her as a more active player in the Zerg armies.

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>>376513050
What are these?

>>376513704
singleplayer unit

>>376513704
Single player only.

>>376513769
wasnt singleplayer in warcraft and sc1 a big tutorial for multiplayer?

>>376513616
I guess, but usually you roll out a couple queens with your ground units for healing your ultras and spreading creep closer to the enemy. You should really have a queens spread across the map laying creep tumors, as well as one for every hatchery

>>376513616
You can use them if your creep spread is good enough. Otherwise they're too slow.

>>376513864
Debatable.
What's your point?

>>376507895

Scourges were removed because they would be hilariously OP in the current SC2 line-up. Zerg would have absolute air superiority.

>>376513864
singleplayer in starcraft does not prepare you for multiplayer at all. you learn what each unit does but not how to use them correctly. There are no build orders either.

>"We want Orisa to be an anchor tank"
>Reduce DPS
>Reduce cooldown for shield deployment
>"There, now she's an even worse Reinhardt clone with less DPS - one of her few redeemable factors."

>>376514019
That's a problem with the overall game design tho.

>>376514110
did you just get angry at the devs because they made a tank do it's job better and not dish out shit tons of damage?

>>376514471
The problem is that 'doing the job better' still left her inferior to another tank in this role, while the reduction hurt her in the one way she actually stands out from the others

>>376514590
>stands out from others
zarya deals more damage while charged
roadhog deals 900 damage per 4 seconds that's without the possible headshots.

orisa is the first "true" support tank.
all of her abilities require a team to be effective while even rein can kill 2 squishies with a hammer down.

>>376514826
Both of those have to be reasonably close to reliably dish out their hurt

How about when they removed the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade for high templar. That was bullshit.

>>376514471
Orisa doesn't do her job better now, nor does she do a good job at all.

>Barrier only has 900 HP and shatters in two seconds plus it's smaller than Reinhardt's and immobile
>Orisa only has 400 health and unlike Zarya who has 200 Shield her 200 Armor doesn't regenerate
>Fortify is nice on paper but the damage reduction doesn't help her low health at all
>Flankers and snipers rip her to pieces unles her entire team is riding her ass because she has no movement abilities and her weapon being a projectile means travel time which means people can avoid it easily

If

-she had 200 Shield added to her health
-her Barrier had 1200 HP
-Fortify was a toggle like Bastion's Self-Repair and D. Va's Defensive Matrix and also blocked headshot bonus damage

Orisa would be almost on par with Reinhardt as a main tank.

>>376514918
seeing as they're tanks their main function isn't dealing damage, if someone gets close, they protect.
Orisa can deal damage from afar sure but not effectively and like i've said, a tank's function is to protect, not to kill.
(doesn't matter shitters in 3k still can't outdps roadhog seeing as i'm gold all the time)

Blizzard can't balance worth shit and it's pretty entertaining to watch them try.

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>Blood DK being near unkillable and needs 15 people to jump him

>>376515279
Still, they DO try

More than can be said for some other devs

>>376515179
>>376514826
>>376514471
What you're failing to understand is that a "Tank" in an FPS has to be different from a Tank in an RPG/MMO. Since you can't taunt other players to focus on the Tank, the Tank has to be threatening enough to warrant the enemy paying attention to it and needing to eliminate it. High damage + stopping damage to their teammates is how OW Tanks get "aggro". But they also have counterbalances, usually poor range. Orisa may be a ranged Tank but her weapon is a projectile with travel time and spread and a measly 12 damage a bullet so she's still only a killer in-close, nerfing the damage only makes her weaker and worse at doing her job which she's already bad at doing thanks to Blizzard's stupidity.

>>376514929
No, what was bullshit was warping in high templar that instantly could storm an army. Made it so that even if you win a huge army battle against protoss, you can't capitalize on it and hurt their economy because they could just warp in a high templar or two and destroy your entire damaged army.

Warp-in is another complete design failure that totally fucked this game because blizzard was too stubborn or lazy to change it.

>>376510770
That's what they promised, aside from a few bug fixes (involving Valkyries and Dragoons).
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/520464-an-interview-with-the-devs-of-starcraft-remastered

>>376515087
her fortify is used to tank damage with her body when the shield is on cooldown.
900 shield every now 8 seconds is far more effective than reinhardt's 2k with a slow recharge rate.

while i do admit that her health stat's as a tank are lacking but she makes up for it in utility.


Also, noone ever will be able to change reinhardt because blizzard will never think of a way to make a tank not an exact reinhardt's copy who's the main tank.

(unless they wanna introduce something along the lines of a wall which reduced damage output if it passes through it)

>>376498331
is Venomancer getting another remodel?

That fucking Warforged/titanforged shit in the recent WoW expansions.

It's fucking retarded, the better thing to do would be to add small natural variation to normal items, so that it's not a gameplay necessity to get the best stat rolls on each item, unless you want to go autistic, in which case you will be rewarded.

Where the fuck did that titanforged idea come from anyway? Activision? Call of duty? Why do the new talent trees also look like that perk shit from CoD?

>>376515741
>her fortify is used to tank damage with her body when the shield is on cooldown.

Even with a Mercy on her Orisa folds like paper if she has to Fortify-tank incoming fire that busted her barrier before the cooldown was over. Right now Fortify is far more useful for preventing being booped around and stopping Reinhardt Charges. 10 seconds of waiting to use it again also doesn't help when she uses it then drops a barrier and the barrier shatters in two seconds.

>900 shield every now 8 seconds is far more effective than reinhardt's 2k with a slow recharge rate.

No it isn't, because having 50% more HP than Winston's only means it takes a second longer to break than Winston's. And unlike Rein and Winston Orisa's barrier is small and leaves the sides and back and top completely exposed.

>>376516006
>Why do the new talent trees also look like that perk shit from CoD?

Because they're literally taking shit from CoD. You can "prestige" your PvP talent trees, giving you a badge next to your name, etc. Blizzard have been trying to turn WoW into CoD for years.

>>376516151
k you btfod me, i'm going out later
(i bought a golden wep for orisa as soon as she got released)

>Get into an RTS mood after browsing that Starcraft thread from the other day
>Eventually stumble onto some "high level play" vids for Legacy of the Void
>Dude's going so fast I don't even see him build units or explore, it's like it all happened automatically offscreen
>What is happening onscreen could almost be seizure inducing as he frantically swaps between the viewpoints of builders, scouts, and buildings
>Builds a huge in army about 5 minutes total
>Enemy GG's after one skirmish with their similar sized army

Is this the reason RTS is nearly dead? Because the skill ceiling is stupidly high as well as the skill floor, and playing the single player or MP in your own way just leads to being rekt online?

It's the same shit in other RTS's I like too, like Age of Mythology. I remembered playing 1 actual skirmish and got bodied by upgraded Frost Giants in about the time I reached classical.

>>376508862
If you can hide them in the fog, sure.

>>376517396
You're just really bad at RTS. AoE2 was just as bad, if not worse than SC2.

>>376517396
Of coruse it is.
That's why SC2 started on fire then after a few months, even middle skilled played ended up giving up.

>>376517396

That there is a huge reason. Its not like many more casual games like shooters or turn based games. In a RTS there is a right way to do things and there is a YOU FUCKING LOSE way to do things. There is no in between.

>>376511484
I wish Banelings were added to the Zerg in BW instead of devourer since scourges already are AA

>>376511119

>People STILL think McFalloff can do anything about Pharah

>>376517396
Well, shouldn't there be plenty of low-level players given the franchise's size?

>>376517396
The game boils down to who can press buttons faster which just isnt interesting to watch for most people.

So yeah. Thats why it died.

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>>376517396
One of the reasons I had so much fun with DOW2, it was focused on far fewer units that each had more individual impact and value and didn't ask much in the way of production management.
Sure it could often be rock-paper-scissorish and the model count wasn't as spectacular as the first, but I still loved it.

>>376517396
Pretty much. You need to learn the metagame of build orders and timings to have fun in multiplayer. Although veterans weren't happy either because SC2 lacked the innate complexity of SC.

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Does anyone else have absolutely zero interest in SC multiplayer? I'd rather play a crafted campaign, even if it isn't very good.

>Hearthstone
>EVERYTHING ABOUT QUESTS

>>376517690
>>376518013
I'll be the first admit that I'm trash at the genre because basically all I play is the campaign, custom maps, and bot matches.

With other genres of games that would serve as a good stepping stone into the multiplayer, but with an RTS you would basically have to unlearn your way of doing things and learn to follow and quickly execute formulas. Basically following a cookbook on how to win that severely discourages beginners and people who would prefer to play their own way.

>>376518670
I grabbed the original for ten bucks and thought the story was well worth the price, waiting for the next opportunity to get the two expacs for the same

>>376519057
People who harp on build orders are full of shit. You want a plan, this is true, but this doesn't mean build X at Y. Think of it as a foundation or structure.
People confuse an opener with a build order, an opener is just a solid foundation to get you into the late game relatively safely and reliably, whereas strict build orders generally lead to all-ins.
One of the most common openings in TvZ in LotV for example is 2-1-1. 2 barracks, 1 factory, 1 Starport. You make 16 Marines with Stim and Combat Shields, 2 Medevacs, and you attack. This build isn't designed to kill the Zerg outright, though it can. The point of this build is to let you safely get a third base, covered by your aggression. After you have your third, you're doing whatever the fuck you want.


I mean shit, Maru beat one of the best Protoss in the world recently with a fucking proxy Ghost rush. Execution is 9 times out of 10 more important than a build order.

>>376518013

No because they billed it as an e-sport straight away and nobody likes e-sports

>>376519057

No, you are just stupid and bad at it. I can hold my own in SC multiplayer and I've never read any build orders or strategies online, the way I play is completely my own style. My favourite way to play is to build a secret base in some remote corner of the map and slowly amass a huge air force there, while hiding any hints of it in my main base, where I pretend to just be turtling, giving the enemy a false sense of security. Often, my main will get destroyed before I reveal my giant buttfuck secret weapon card of like 10 battlecruisers or carriers swooping into the enemy base.

This can work even at pretty high levels of play - not against pro gamers, but certainly on the mid tier ladders.

What you're doing isn't "playing your way", you are just fucking shit and likely thinking you're playing sim city instead of an RTS.

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>>376498439

It has to be the worst TCG i've ever played. Like with pokemon you get bored because it's childish but you understand that it is miles away from hearthstone with the design.

Thank god for mtg.

>>376519162

The original is free now and it only has one expansion.

>>376520001

>Like with pokemon you get bored because it's childish

Looks like we have a real adult over here guys!

>>376520162

it's really straight forward, you can tell the intention was to create the pokemon battles in a tgc format. It is for kids anon, there's not much you can do i that game and yet it somehow is better designed than hearthstone.

Like 3/4 of the people that play magic would look like manchilds if they played pokemon tgc.

>>376517396
The huge focus on micro-ing and build orders ruins competitive RTS for me.
It's a similar problem chess suffers from, there are only "right" ways to play, reducing the game to psychological mind-games and trying to avoid mistakes.
Which only makes the game compelling for other 'hardcore' chess players. Compare that to something like football (soccer), where everyone from hardcore fans to first-timers can find it enjoyable.

>>376520001
MTG is a horrible CG to translate to a videogame though.
Both players can stop the game to perform an action too often so they always have to add a timer after every single fucking action, which slows down the game too much.

>>376520383

I think you may have autism anon.

There is no plane of reality where a Magic the Gathering player looks less like a manchild than a Pokemon player. It's the exact same shit, except Pokemon players generally have a sense of irony and fun around it. If you tell a girl at work(or school in your case) you like to play pokemon cards, she'll likely think it's funny and charming. If you tell her you play Magic the Gathering, you're on a one way trip to spaghetti town as you try to explain this very serious card game about wizards without sounding like a lame neckbeard.

Also, plural of child is children. Basic grammar.

>>376520564

So in other words, you're just a stupid casual who watches stupid, simple sports for dumb people and also translates that preference into video games. Got it.