https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H65 15IOANn4 Why don't

They do. Bethesda games don't.

I find it kinda weird they didn't do it, since the looking glass hologram stuff they have in the new prey is similar to how they do mirror effects.

>>376403415
>this autism again

We already established it's more difficult to these things in modern games. Especially games that have a bunch of systems that are more advanced and all of that needs to be replicated in front of a mirror

>>376403529
Nope, Hitman is a modern game that can do mirror reflections fine.

Most devs are simply lazy

>>376403415
Because wasting resources over graphical details is not cost efficient

>>376403415
because the industry is 90% art degrees

>>376403415

it will drop framerate 2x

>>376403551
If laziness is prioritising dev time to features that actually matter, then they should be lazy.

>>376403613
>immersion doesn't matter

Sucks to be you but it does matter to some people

>>376403579

But wasting resources on graphical details (not the right ones) has been the AAA industry standard for years.

>>376403659
That's not what I wrote and you know it, faggot.

consoles

>>376403551
Hitman is entirely in third person. They didn't have to make an entirely new character model purely to use in mirrors and nothing else. It shows in the old Prey how fucking janky the animations are just to have made it for that one scene

>>376403716
That is literally what you wrote faggot. What else do you mean then?

>>376403415
Even Zelda BotW has reflections and it's running on the switch lmao

>>376403668
Performance resources.
Rendering the mirror stuff = ~2x drop in performance

>>376403415
Well it prey it would ruin the entire fucking game.

>>376403720
Hate to break it to you but this stuff only matters to devs. The public doesn't know or care about the backend reasons behind games technology. All that matters is the end result.

>>376403745
Not him but he said that being able to see yourself in the mirror doesnt matter not that immersion doesnt matter. Are you retarded?

Also if your immersion is broken by something this inane then please kys

>>376403745
That mirrors are very bad return on investment.

For instance, they made touchscreens operable by nerf darts, that's way more creative and immersive than a fucking mirror, and it actually has gameplay meaning too.

performance issues you fucking dolt, it's not worth it

>>376403830
Do you even understand the concept of immersion? You must be low IQ if you can get sucked into a game then completely ignore the fact that a mirror is nothing more than a low detail texture over a bathroom sink. Maybe that's enough for an idiot like you, but it breaks immersion for anyone actually paying attention

>>376403903
Yes I can because I'm not a raging autist.

So can you, we all know you're just here to shitpost. And if this nitpick is the best you've got, then the game must be really fucking good.

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>>376403551
hahhahahahahahahahhaaHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

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>>376403903
>>376403745
>>376403659
God damn immersion fags are the fucking worst.

>>376403415
Some modern games do, like Hitman 2016, but what's really going on is it has to render a reversed duplicate of everything in the foreground since real-time ray traced mirrors being implemented in games is still pretty far off.

The trouble with mirrors now is games with physics simulation and movable objects. Your picture in the OP is Prey, think about the bathroom mirrors rendering duplicate of all the objects in the foreground. Then think about stuffing the bathroom with objects you pick up and move around, and setting off a grenade inside. It would be a mess, probably destroy your framerate if not crash the game, or disturb the framerate in the mirror world which is even worse. You can see that shit in Mafia 3, framerate drops in the fucking mirrors.

>>376403953
>post actual fault in the game
>must be shitposting

Are you this desperate to handwave the failing of a lazy developer?

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>>376403996
God damn brain dead mongoloids are the fucking worst.

Stick to your Candy Crush if you don't care about a game's world.

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>>376403824
>>376403415
>>376403551
>>376403903
>'muh dev laziness'
>'All that matters is the end result'

99.9% of the public doesn't care about working mirrors in games and accepts that it's a fair trade off from how complex modern game engines are.

You know what's really funny? This is exactly the kind of autistic attention to detail that Chris Roberts is going for with Star Citizen.
And what does that game get here? Endless shitposting about how the devs spending time and resources on very minor features is evidence that the game is never actually going to be released.

ITT: Autism

>>376403975
deletet this it got fixed

>>376404123
>99.9% of the public doesn't care about working mirrors in games and accepts that it's a fair trade off from how complex modern game engines are.
Source for this claim?

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>>376403529
>it's more difficult to these things in modern games.
Then maybe we took a wrong turn somewhere in tech development

>>376403903
>>>
> Anonymous 05/09/17(Tue)21:06:04 No.376403745▶>>376403830 >>376403852 >>376403996
>>>376403716
>That is literally what you wrote faggot. What else do you mean then?


DESU I thought maybe it woukld be explained in the end of the game. Doesn't bother me otherwise though, immersion to me is a lot more than a mirror. Mirrors have also taken away the immersion for me in the past.

>>376404057
Are you this desperate to pin a nitpick on a good game?

Why?

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>>376404247
>good game

Lurk on /v/ for more than a week and you'll find that threads shitting on lazy devs that don't put effort into mirrors is fairly common

It's only around the time of a major new game release that doesn't properly implement mirrors that people on /v/ defend non-working mirrors

Suspicious that...

>>376404108
>Stick to your Candy Crush
heres your (you)

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As a reference for Prey shills going forward, it's a better tactic to blame consoles for not having the technical capabilities to implement working mirrors over pretending using a shitty texture as a mirror is fine

>>376403464
It's not a Bethesda game you moron. I would think by now people would know what a publisher is

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>>376403415
>>376403551
>>376403584
>>376403659
>>376403903
>>376404057
>>376404185
>>376404374

You guys are fucking retarded.

This >>376404054 guy is right.

Watch this video from about 58 seconds in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkjRTUZyu3I

Now consider what would happen if a player tried that in front of a mirror where the entire thing has to be rendered twice. It would drop most high end gaming PCs to about 3fps. Fuck only knows what would happen on a PS4 or even worse an Xbone.

This is the kind of complexity that has to be taken into account with modern game systems. Old games could do it because there was fuck all complexity that would make mirrors an issue

ITT: people who has never developed an AAA game before

>>376404374
No, it's a common bait used by shitposters such as yourself, because the complaint is that insane.

Your next post will be "I was only pretending to be retarded" or possibly "Thanks for you (You)s."

>>376404508
Is anyone really going to take a response made by someone using a little child's cartoon seriously?

>>376403529
>create buffer
>render scene from mirror PoV to buffer
>set buffer as texture for mirror

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>>376404583
>>376404609
>muh complexity faggots

Get the fuck out of here you braindead cretins, yes of course mirrors are technically taxing but that's no excuse for dev laziness

Here are 2 modern AAA games side by side. Hitman is flawed but Prey didn't even fucking try. There is no excuse for this level of laziness in 2017

>>376404806
Did you even read what anon posted here >>376404583

Watch the fucking video

>>376404940
Yes I did faggot and technical reasons don't matter to the average consumer. I've been a software developer (not video games) for years and nobody outside of developers cares about the technical reasons behind development decisions, all that matters is the end result. This is nowhere more true than something as visual as video games.

The public sees Hitman and Prey mirrors side-by-side and there is literally no comparison. Hell, the video I got the Prey screenshot is from is showing how the original Prey had working mirrors while the new one does not.

>>376405130
you sound like a spoiled autistic child who has never been a part of AAA development.

>>376403415
Who gives a fuck about mirrors? Seriously? Have we run out of things to complain about?

>>376405212
You sound like someone desperately trying to explain why certain features don't work to an uncaring public

>>376404583
Fun fact
At worse, shadows drop performance by half.
Typically they won't since shadow maps only have to be rendered once for both PoVs.
Mirrors aren't going to be taking up 100% of the game screen so they don't need to be rendered at the same resolution.

Certain tiny objects don't have to be rendered in the mirror and mirrors and mirrors can have cheaper AO effects.

Mirrors don't have to tank performance.

>>376404583
physics frame ahead calculations with amortization and a render texture. done
technically the first is/should be implemented in every multiplayer system. but then again were talking about an industry that still does frame timed updates locked at 30, p2p instead of authoritative server multiplayer, or just eschew everything and call it cinematic

>>376404806
>that's no excuse for dev laziness

It's like you just totally ignored the content of this >>376404583 post.

How is it 'dev laziness' if that's a feasible explanation for why something is realistically not possible in a certain game?

It's like complaining to a developer that the graphics in a game aren't 100% photorealistic and they haven't accurately simulated the entire fucking planet, then calling them lazy when they explain why they couldn't do that

>>376405367
At worst, mirrors drop performance by half*

fuck me

Retard answer: devs are lazy and can't optimize anymore so the games can't have working mirrors or they'd slow to a crawl

Actual answer: first person games do not have mirrors because first person animations are different from third person animations. Having working mirrors would mean a first person game would have to recreate most animations for a third person view, which is a tonne of work.

Note how games that have working mirrors nowadays, e.g. Hitman, are third person. In the old days animation quality standards were a lot lower so you could get away with a lower quality third person animation set as to not waste too many resources on it.

>>376405436
hhhehehhe yeh but da public dont care xD

>>376405416
Are you incapable of reading or even looking at the image in >>376404806 ?

It is perfectly possible to create functional mirrors in modern games

Read >>376405367
>>376405374

There is literally no excuse other than laziness

For fucks sake at least go with something semi-believable like 'had to be removed due to console limitations' angle because functioning mirrors ARE perfectly possible in modern games

>>376405436
>Having working mirrors would mean a first person game would have to recreate most animations for a third person view, which is a tonne of work.
Do you not even understand the definition of lazy? And you call others retarded

>>376404806
It's not laziness retard, it's a production decision. If you want to have moving objects with physics simulation. You can either waste a ton of time making mirrors that are going to shit the bed no matter what, or don't waste the time and spend it on other things.

Hitman doesn't have complex physics simulation, and can only render a few actors at a time using it's crowd system.

You know those humans you see in the catwalk crowd on Paris that aren't really actors, that's their crowd system that's also being utilized in the mirrors. If Hitman had physics simulation anywhere near cry engine or source, idtech, w/e and rendered it in mirror, you'd see massive stuttering in the mirror from just throwing a couple boxes around.

>>376405647
Yeah but who gives a shit other than autists like you

>>376404806
Hitman is also running like shit on every rig while showing subpar graphics and these mirrors aren't even functional on gameplay level

>>376405557
Hitman doesn't allow you to do anything as demanding as the video in this post you dumbass
>>376404583

>>376405374
>>376405367

For gods sake. You can already see how something like that dropped the framerate to about 5ps by itself. Now that has to be replicated in a mirror as well.

And the most important thing? What you see in the mirror has to match the framerate in the actual game. If you do something that runs at 30fps in the game and what's showing in the mirror is rendering at 15 fps, with a delay, then it totally destroys the illusion of mirror which makes the whole thing pointless

>>376405692
Hitman runs 70-90 fps maxed out on DX12 on a 290.

>>376405557
>>376405647
Apart from games like Arma where first person and third person anims are the same, recreating animations in third person would be a big chunk of work. Third person animations are a lot more complex than first person ones, you're probably looking at 10 times the work of the first person animations and for what, working mirrors? Oh and since standards are so high nowadays, you better mocap all that shit, because otherwise expect people shitting on those animations all over the internet.

I'm fine with mirrors not working for most games, where third person animations would only be used for mirrors. I'd rather they put the (considerable) time and effort into other parts of the game. It's a tonne of fucking effort for a tiny reward, you complain about mirrors yet I bet you complain about devs (especially Kickstarter devs) not managing their budget and time properly.

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>>376405670
>>376405436
>>376405416

ITT: nobody understands video game development.

Devs don't have to fully recreate environments and characters models at full res with max detail textures for mirrors to be functional. Scaled down resources and technical trickery is how mirrors are created in most games as it is.

Defending Prey's absolutely no effort mirrors as a waste of dev time to even try is indefensible though. Although considering what a flop Prey is looking to be, arguably everything about that game was simply wasted dev time.

>>376405930
>flop
Good joke

>>376405843
It might be better if you have AMD instead of graphics card. I upgraded from 780 to 1070 and still getting hitches on 1080p

>>376405985
It got beaten by Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, a re-release of a game that has already been done almost 10 times over

>>376405930
Sure the models don't have to be recreated, but the physics does. Or you'd bitch about flipping a box up in the air, have it spin, and then fall in two different directions in the real and mirror world.

>>376405818
You don't have to replicate the scene in the mirror. You just have to render it a second time with lesser detail.
Like I said, at worse it'd cut the framerate in half. But that's not going to happen since rendering the scene isn't taking up 100% of the frame time.
It doesn't have to redo physics calculations, game logic and shadows. It just has to do the couple little rendering bits at a reduced resolution.
In that situation where the game's performance dropped from physics calculations, having a mirror there literally woudn't affect the performance at all.

>>376405670
frankly with the hardware we have now, entity instantiation and a render shader makes mirrors negligible. physics doenst even have to be calculated twice, its just a transform. it just poor planning and design

>>376406040
Which calls for clever game design

Or, you know, hurr durr it's not possible because it would require effort!!!

>>376406089
>Which calls for clever game design

Well since literally everyone in the industry is retarded compared to you, I await your clever game design.

>>376404123
>how complex modern game engines are.

Funny how your supposedly so much more complex engine fails at attention to detail. So much for that complexity, amirite?

You can stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about now because from this very sentence anyone can tell you don't know shit from squat when it comes to game development of programming for that matter. Engines haven't gotten simpler, if anything, they are much more friendly and require WAY less tempering around to get things to work. This is just lazyness and you should go educate yourself instead of doing free damage control for a company that is a staple of lazyness.

>>376406134
>if you can't create video games you can't have opinions on them

Now you bring out this retarded argument. Getting pretty desperate now

>>376406143
>haven't gotten simpler

haven't gotten more complex*

>>376405930
Are you retarded?

>Devs don't have to fully recreate environments
No shit, because those already exist for a first person game.

> characters models
Yeah they fucking do, you mongoloid. You think a first person game has a third person viewmodel unless it very specifically needs it? Unless the game already had a need for a third person asset, one will have to be created for mirrors.

> full res with max detail textures for mirrors to be functional.
That has fucking nothing to do with it, I don't know where you get that retarded idea.

>Scaled down resources and technical trickery is how mirrors are created in most games as it is.
I wish you luck in creating a full set of third person animations (and probably third person assets) with "scaled down resources and technical trickery".


Are Prey2fags the most assblasted "fanbase" known to man? I thought consolefags were bad but Jesus Christ.

>>376406054
>frankly with the hardware we have now, entity instantiation and a render shader makes mirrors negligible. physics doenst even have to be calculated twice, its just a transform. it just poor planning and design

Cool, find me real-time mirrored physics simulation on the scale linked here >>376404583 that could run on consumer computer hardware.

I understand both sides to this particular argument, but if a dev doesn't want to invest resources into reflective mirrors then having the player enter an environment where you'd expect to see mirrors and just slapping a nonreflective texture where the mirror's meant to be isn't an ideal solution. It's better to not draw attention to the issue by simply not having the player enter environments where you'd expect to see a lot of mirrors or else to contrive scenarios where the mirrors are broken somehow. Deux Ex Human Revolution does this, where you return to Adam Jensen's apartment and his mirror is smashed, with the implication that he broke it in a fit of anger because he couldn't stand looking at his augments. They manage to sidestep the issue in a way that makes sense and got a nice bit of environmental storytelling out of it in the process. Devs should follow that example.

>>376404583

Because obviously the only option is to have 100% realistic ray tracing reflection. It's either that or nothing at all, amirite you fucking shill?

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ITT:

>game design is 'magic'
>if something isn't there it's because of laziness and incompetence and the developers not channeling magic hard enough
>all of this because I want to create le epic pessimist narrative about how everything older is better and the industry is going to shit

Meanwhile, go across the hall to a Star Citizen thread and watch people complain when this kind of attention to detail is carried out, because it uses loads of dev resources and delays games for years

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>>376406224
What fucking world are you living in where you think it's impossible for a first person game to use fully rendered character models?

Even Mirror's Edge did this and that was released on 360/PS3

The animations are shit because it wasn't meant to be played in third person, but you have to be fucking stupid to think you can't make full character models for first person games because machines can't handle it or something

>>376406239
The physics simulation, which is what is killing the framerate, is not run twice for mirrors, it only has to be RENDERED twice. Arguably rendering all that shit twice isn't ideal, but far from impossible even on consoles (you can always use lower LoDs and lower res on consoles).

>>376405818
it is literally 1 transform. applied to 1/2 the object set. the physics calc is still the same to the other half like normal. thousands of cabbages would be a bigger hit of frame rates. couple hundred is trivial

>>376406239
>mirrored physics simulation
Are you retarded?
Let me explain to you how a mirror in a video game works.

You have your game scene.
You get the distance and angle of the mirror from the player.
Calculate the size of texture you'll need
Make a camera from the reflection's PoV
Render scene from new camera to a texture
Apply texture to mirror surface
Render scene from the player's PoV

You don't duplicate the scene in the mirror. It isn't the 2000 anymore.

>>376406134

Or maybe just ask one of the devs from games from the 90s and early 2000s which surprisingly enough could pull it off. Funny, isn't it?

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>>376406354
No shit, rendering the mathematics is where the vast majority of the throughput in physics simulation is.

>>376406385
Let me add that this isn't the only way to do a mirror.

If you're using voxel cone traced global illumination you can use secular lightning on a 100% reflective surface to do reflections, although they'd be at a reduced detail, but it would have 0 performance impact over your base scene.

Yeah I mean we could totally ray trace everything on computers from 10 years in the future, why aren't all video games delayed for a decade so we can experience true non-lazy excellence.

>>376406342
Way to miss the point retard, it's not about fucking processing power, it's about dev time and money. Why the fuck would you waste time and money making a third person asset and full animation set (which by the way are much more effort than their first person equivalents) just so you can have a mirror or two in your game?

As for ME, ME has a full mesh due to the way the game works, where you have a lot of animations where you would see other parts of your body and "full" body awareness. Even then, the third person asset if NOT the same quality as other characters, and if you look at the animations, they are completely fucked from a third person perspective. So, if you wanted mirrors, you'd need to remake most of the assets and the whole animation set. Have fun wasting money so some faggot can look at himself in a mirror for 30 seconds then never do it again. Good allocation of budget right there.

>>376403415
>thinking anything involved with lighting or reflections beyond prebaked in the map editor is remotely basic

Wew lad

Idea Men, Idea Men as far as the eye can see.

>>376406576
As several anons have explained, it's neither impossible nor outrageously difficult to implement working mirrors.

The only argument with any merit is that it could result in a framerate drop depending on how complex the scene around the mirror is, but this can be overcome with clever game design.

However, according to some mouthbreathers on /v/ a dev putting any more than the bare effort into a game is not to be considered 'lazy' but rather perfectly acceptable and anyone who complains is an autismo

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even low budget funfests like postal 2 had reflective mirrors

Lazy.
Fucking.
Devs.

>>376406696
>As several anons have explained
And as several anons who are not retarded have explained many times, it's not about performance, it's about budget and time. Again, please explain to me how you are going to use your magic to create third person assets and animations up to the high standard of a modern game without wasting a tonne of budget and resources.

It would be a huge ammount of production/budget for something you see 3 times in the game.

Especially in a game like Prey.
For exemple what if you turn into a mug in front of a mirror. They would have to modelize/animate all the possibilites. It would be impossible without having 8 years of developement.

Still Prey has some interesting things going on with the Looking Glass mirrors and body awareness.

>>376406239
https://youtu.be/UD0i_0nJt_4?t=8
https://youtu.be/AvxGw_sZisk?t=333
https://youtu.be/h0gJqWR08l4?t=432

a google search away
shaders have come a long way buddy

>>376406696
>but this can be overcome with clever game design.

Like mirrors only existing in areas with no moving objects? Maybe you could put some sort of material destruction field in front of all bathroom entrances like the end of portal levels.

In the lobby of Prey 2017, there are hundreds of objects that can be moved around freely, and yes, carried into bathrooms in the area that do not have reflective mirrors. The only options are settling for sub par shit mirrors that will have sporadic framerate and could potentiall crash the game, or set up some sort of barrier mcguffin that prevents items from being carried in the bathroom. Maybe a robotic valet that snatches anything out of your hands you try to bring into the bathroom and throws it far away. What would be your clever game design solution to get around this problem and have functional mirrors?

>>376406825
If showing you several other games primarily meant for first person control that feature those assets exist and are commercially viable, what other proof will get through to you?

>>376403996
People who clamor for "immersion" the most tend to also be the people who self insert the hardest; aka faggots.

>>376406787
postal isn't nearly as complex as prey

>>376406906
Amazing framerate! And all with grey smooth sphere blanks!

>>376406293
>>all of this because I want to create le epic pessimist narrative about how everything older is better and the industry is going to shit
you don't have to create that narrative, it writes itself

>>376406926
>several other games
Such as?

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>games getting progressively more dumbed down
>everything is the fucking same grey sludge made to appeal to the lowest common denominator
>MUH MIRRORS THO

Nice priorities.

>>376407261
How about read the topic you faggot

>>376407349
All I see are either games like ME (see >>376406576 for that), or old games with abysmal animation standards (e.g. Postal 2).

>>376407062
on unity no less
it should be getting 2-3 frames! right?

>>376406031
Did you also forget that Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is the best selling Mario Kart to date?

>>376407595
Apparently so, which makes Prey's flop even more embarrassing

>>376406787
postal 2 is one of the laziest games ever made.

>>376407638
>MK8 sold the most of any MK
>this makes it more embarrassing that Prey sold less than it compared to if it were another MK

Is this the power of a Prey2fag delusion?

>caring about this
>autism

I've had an incredibly good time playing NuPrey and the 2 mirrors I found not reflecting did absolutely fuck all to spoil my enjoyment.

>>376409281
Let me break it down for you into more easily understandable chunks

A relatively fresh video game with only minimal ties to one predecessor could not beat out a re-release of a game in its 10th or so iteration that did little more than (re)add the ability to hold 2 items at the same time

>>376410027
>nothing to do with nintendo switch having 4 games and switch owners clamouring for something to play
>nothing to do with nintenbros being fucking retards who only buy games that have mario or zelda in the titles

>>376410027
>new, untested game sells less than series that is a gorillion years old

Yes...? That is how video games work?