wow, really makes you think... Legion was great at the start

WoW is for Faggots

AP grinding and world quests ended up being way more annoying than it sounded.

I feel behind just thinking about coming back to play again. How much shit i'd have to do to get back into mythic dungeons. gross.

>>376178504
The AP grind is entirely passive now because rushing it is impractical and largely pointless. Titanforging has done nothing wrong, and RNG has always fucked up the game.

You have no valid complaints and are a shitter.

I miss Warsong Gulch, how the alliance faggots cried when I beat the shit out of them with my pala.

>>376178637

>you can't bring up real issues regarding gameplay because I think you're not good at a game

Apparently your money is worth more than mine?

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>>376178637
>>376178584

If i did the three emissaries that would probably take me up to say 45 mins. I'd end up with three useless gear upgrades.
I want static drops instead of farming M6 in hopes I'll get that titanforge upgrade only to waste my time and get shit loot.

>>376178920
The worst thing is people saying
>b-but people would stop playing if they maxed out their character easily!
Meanwhile the xpac with most subs was Wrath, THE expansion with the easiest progression in WoW history.

>>376179240

>Tell them only that, the Lich King is dead... and Warcraft died with him!

>legion is performing slightly better than warlords of draenor
JUST

>>376178504
i think people were cautiously optimistic because pre-patch invasions were fun but it went to shit fast

>>376178905
You can type whatever you want but that doesn't make your statements real or accurate just because they're yours. Also, I called you a shitter because I am insulting you personally as I have a complete and utter lack of respect for you, and I like to inject random disdain into stupid, pointless discussions that lack merit.

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>there are people still paying 15/mo just to do garrisons

>>376179240
The reason Wrath did so well was because end-game was now accessible to even the worst of pubs, anyone could run a raid and suck and still get loot. Cata lost all these people by making the intro raid tier actually somewhat challenging.

Wrath was a mistake.

>>376179240
Is "progression" the end-game content progression, or the leveling
Because leveling in cataclysm is toddler-tier

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Who's your fave raid boss and why is it Ragnaros?

>>376180658
>not Gul'dan
He's the best thing about Legion by far.

>>376180742
>evil guy becomes orc hulk
great...

If you aren't taking a break from the game right now because you've already cleared M NH then you need to git gud.

Also, stop crying about AP. It isn't the reason you and your shit guild can't kill bosses.

>>376179830
Actually someone else is paying 20/mo

>>376178504
its play a private server or grind for ap, titanforging and RNG at $15 a month

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Warcraft 3 HD when?

>>376179651
where is the proof though

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>>376182107
proof of what

>>376182284
"overall performance" can mean a lot, I'll believe it when they announce how many accounts are still subbed

>>376179651
they are both shit, call me when they perform better than AT LEAST MoP

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This is the old system we need.

>>376179240
Blizzard went full retard after the end of wrath because from vanilla to wrath all the raids were relevant at any point in that expacs history. U needed to do molten core before going to bwl or nax. And in bc u needed Kara as an entry raid to gear for bt and ssc. And in wrath u couldn't just jump into icc, u needed nax gear and tic and stufff. Once shit like lfr came out and dungeon ques the only raid that mattered was the current patch one.

>>376182284
>All these "It's doing fine honesty" quips
if hots is doing so well why do they need to bribe people to play the game

>>376180742
Gul'dan will never be my favorite boss fight

He is by far my favorite character in the game and putting him down sucks for me

>>376184593
wut

people were balls deep into ICC first day, especially since it was time gated

everyone was geared at that point, since we had nothing but ToC for months and months

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>>376180658
>People missed out on WoD
>They missed on the best raid
>They missed the best and most fun boss in the game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEuU64Zt4B0

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>>376178504
>kind of wanted to come back since a few friends are playing again
>hear that elemental and enhancement shamans are both ass

I'm used to it. Also have a Lock and a Warrior, but I heard they gutted the shit out of prot.

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>>376186001
Thogar was a great fight to learn without addons, getting world 5th on that shit was gr8

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>>376186207
Prot was overperforming but it's in a stable place.
Only thing is arms vs fury. Fury is the dps spec to go while arms is the shitter.

I find arms more fun though.

>>376186207
prot warriors have exactly the same problem as every other tank except druid right now. Guardian druids are completely broken so there's no reason to ever take a tank that isn't a bear.

>>376186412
I was just happy when i finally downed him and got my mythic tier piece.

(i was a warlock and literally EVERYONE wanted those shoulders because they looked so good)

>>376178504
The simple thing to do is remove all forced grind.
If you have to force someone to play your content, it's obviously not fun enough.

>>376186207
all the tanks were gutted, guardian/brewmaster are the only ones with a decent rotation, everything else plays like shit

I want to play again but fuck paying.

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>>376178895
>horde paladin

>>376186970
>Not playing a holy cow.
U gay

>go back into wow
>want to do story because that's all I really care about
>haha you have to be honored with nightfallen
>now get revered
>now go get exalted fag
>btw go do these forty dungeons so we can make a handbag for illidan's soul
>but not all at once, silly :^) please enjoy the timegates
I want to enjoy it, but all this goddamn grinding really killed it for me. I didn't sub just to log in, do some WQs and dungeons then log out

>>376187163
> timegates
I don't think they've ever been this bad, it's like they're trying to milk the most out of players before the game dies

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The Broken Shore is a shitshow unfortunately. That entire zone is more bland than Tanaan Jungle. The Legion invasions basically just turn the affected zone green for a couple of hours and give you a bland 10 minute scenario with 2 other people.

On top of that the AP grind does get absolutely fucking ridiculous. When you hit rank 36 which is the point where you have all the major artifact traits plus two extra fairly significant traits the cost jumps dramatically. It goes from 1.9 million to 10 million so you have to sit on your hands and wait for artifact research to catch up which takes around 6 fucking ranks to do so or 18 days until it becomes viable to avoid the Korean level grind.

The power provided by upgraded legendaries and general artifact power is also heavily impacting on previous content such that you can just walk straight into the hardest last tier of content and steamroll without even trying moreso than any other expansion.

>>376186970
horde and alliance faction hate was virtually useless after tbc

they should have added faction specific classes

Too much fucking RNG on loot, legendaries are pure cancer, the time gating is really shit, lack of content and AP grind is full retard

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>>376188034
impossible, this is the biggest content patch ever

>>376185797
It's not the same Gul'dan

Why can't someone make a casual mmo where you can raid, dungeon delve, quest, explore and PvP without shitty grinding, fuck id make one if I could.

>>376189384
There will be none mmo like that ever. Any of them uses grind and skinnerboxing to make you stay in game as long as you can before you realise game's shallowness. And even if there was one, it wont be successful.

Why did they put a time limit on AV. They should've made npcs respawn and stuff instead of a timer

>>376189563
What if there was an MMO where you could be a simple peasant farmer or a knight depending on the choices you made and you can spend your time however you want? You wouldn't have 50 abilities, youd have ones that actually make sense like DND spells and a combat system that's actually satisfying and not auto attacks. A peasant farmer could save up and buy an inn if he was the type of player to play MMOs for the money aspect, the knight player could be in it for glory and the sake of slaying monsters and so on and so forth.

>>376189985
Too hard for modern players to understand. Look at most of the people who play FFXIV, do you really think they could play the game you're describing without complaining every fucking second?

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Post your main.

>>376189985
maybe an MMO where you're a family instead of an individual
>man for fightan
>woman for trade skillan
>housing/dressing for casuals
>same sex families for fags and tumblr points

>>376186725
The point to an MMORPG was and is never the game itself. If you wanted an RPG that was compelling to play there is inevitably a single player RPG that, due to the lack of restrictions the MMORPG by design has to force on itself, can do better.


The draw for any MMORPG, the reason you play it over, say, Diablo 2, Fallout: New Vegas, Dark Souls, Morrowind, etc, is because of the community they offer and your ability to meaningfully interact with it.


>>376178504
You can't. At this point the solutions would be too controversial and alienating to anyone who wasn't around for the, 'good old days' because it'd strip a huge volume of creature comforts they'll screech about not having.


Blizzard screwed the pooch not by making things more accessible, but by doing it without asking what that would lead to. Why have dedicated servers? The only reason to be on one server over any other is to be in a specific guild, but since there's no such thing as server communities anymore- or barely anything like it- you only join a specific server to be in a specific guild, which is most likely to do mythic raids. And that brings the other point- why have guilds in their current state? They're one of the few things that has not meaningfully changed since the game came out. You get some heirloom gear, you get some guild perks, that's it. That's the only meaningful addition they've made.


More broadly Blizzard needs to do some game design 101 and stop introducing features that splits the community and sends the message that you can be the most obnoxious brat of a casual and the game will cater to them. LFR was a disaster, but LFD, and CRZ's were as well. Mythic+ is stupid, forging is broken and removes half the incentive of mythic raiding, the legendary system is stupid, the artifact weapon system is dumb, and all of this builds into a game that lacks for identity, and makes everyone feel like a stranger.

>>376189985
Sounds more like browser MMO, some like Renaissance Kingdoms and other.

>>376189241
I actually liked AU Gul'dan more than the original.

>Harbingers
>Audio Drama

I wish he would have won.

>>376187695
This is after the squish so pre-WoD numbers are essentially meaningless

>>376186798
Because tanks at release were broke as fuck. For world content there was absolutely no reason to not play a tank spec for any class, especially warriors. Ignore Pain was broke as fuck.

>>376179953
Wrath, excluding the TOC patch, was actually pretty good. Catch up mechanics were introduced to avoid the insular problem with Burning Crusade raiding where once you got past SSC and Tempest Keep as a server you had a finite player base to draw raiders from because no one wanted to go back and do those fucking raids. Naxx was an excellent entry raid, Ulduar was a natural progression upward and still offered challenges, and ICC could be as simple or difficult as you wanted it to be.

Aside from the stupidity of LFR- yeah, lets add a game mode where your ability to success is only measured by your willingness to push the 'release' button every time you fuck up and get back in the raid instance- the current problem is that the community is simply split into too many niches. Hardcore mythic raiders are completely insular from the most babby casual and when they interact it can only end poorly because it's been reinforced that you being an incompetent boob at the game is acceptable which leads to a grand canyon scale chasm between bads and the hardcore community.

>>376179830
To the Garrison's credit if you tooled them properly, you never had to pay real money for your subs because of how much gold they made, and while they were boring, they didn't exactly waste my time either. I prefer a 2 minute errand simulator to a 30 minute errand simulator that makes me run all over an entire zone to do the exact same quest I've already done, except this time- and this is actually to the game's credit- I don't have to pick up or physically turn in the quest.

Nothing lasts forever

Fav overall expansion so far, but:

The AP Grind WAS a way to make things "like the old days". Do content that gets done quicker in groups all for the sake of a tedious as fuck grind? Does that not spell Scepter Of The Shifting Sands or PvP Honor in Vanilla?

The RNG is, again, something more akin to the sheer randomization of loot that was associated with muh glory days of WoW than anything that came later.

There's nothing wrong with titanforging considering that it's "unfair" factor (aka getting better loot from doing easier content) chances at about 0.02% (that's just slightly higher than Rivendare's mount.)

I also don't think that the AP grind, outside of being immensely long isn't that bad because at least now we have an endgame where there's more variety than just dailies or even worse, Vanilla/TBC's just raidlogging.

Otherwise, I would like some changes in class. Generally remove the focus on mainly procs that they have this expansion towards more active kind of trinkets. For Rogues, I do like that they are finally more interesting than most takes on them for PvE, but that's only if you go Sub; Outlaw is still that same old straightforward boring style Rogue PvE has been forever. For Affliction Locks there's no real reason to really break off the main rotation and you'll be among top DPS, but I would like more dynamic priority between setting DoTs on the mob vs setting DoTs on the soul effigy. For Retribution Paladin I want something like the Cata rotation but more priority based so you can't just use add-ons to simplify a possibly complex combo.

None of this is killing the game. The game started "dying" because of player demand in the larger landscape. In the world of social media, LoL, wowhead, etc. basically the only thing that WoW can still be considered good at is group based endgame PvE content, and it's best at that.

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>>376178504

Please don't tell me there are still people on /v/ who are playing WoW and can't let go.

You got fucking Warlrods and Legion. How much more shit stuffed down your throat do you need before you call it quits?

>>376192795
how do retards somehow equate fewer drops to RNG loot, in no way do randomized gem slots and stats have anything to do with vanilla/tbc

>>376192895
But Legion is better than Cataclysm, Pandaria, and Warlords...?

>>376190587
LFR is fine. The only people who complain about LFR don't understand that the game would have FAR less people playing it if LFR was not an option anymore. It's very similar to guys who think we would get more manufacturing jobs here by ending NAFTA. You don't get the "why" aspect of it.

Mythic+ has only expanded the scene for endgame PvE content. Higher level Mythic+ is supposed to remove a bit of incentive from mythic raiding, because it's another thing you can do beside Mythic raiding for challenging endgame. Hell, being a Mythic+ tank is much harder than being a Mythic Raider tank because of the requirements asked of the player.

>stuff is stupid and dumb, and makes people feel like strangers
Except the fastest way to gain AP is through running content that gives it in groups. The same with Legendary farming as well.

Your post is full of contradictions. Claim that guilds haven't changed in any meaningful ways after posting examples that it has? Essentially tell Blizzard to stop introducing new features to the game because anything/everything, no matter what they introduce, will have at least some vocal haters? Are you new to WoW?

>is because of the community they offer and your ability to meaningfully interact with it.
No, you mean how it helps you meaningfully interact with the world along with others. The people who only care about muh community went over to the social media craze. It's not WoW's fault, and to say that the point of an MMORPG was never the game shows that you live in 2000-2005 rather than the 2007-present world where social media has gotten increasingly popular. The best aspect of MMOs now remain to be challenging PvE content that no other video game offers. Archimonde Mythic for example is a boss with more mechanics and nuance than every other boss that /v/ dickrides (Vergil 3, the End, etc.) But such a boss is only possible in an MMO setting.

>>376178504
You don't need to fix wow, you need to fix the alliance players

>>376193103
But that concept of not getting what you wanted for your particular character for your build has been there just as long. In fact, the frustration related to Vanilla is a lot worse than this (though again, vanilla fags think it's a good fucking thing for some reason cuz "oh so rare and rewarding".)

Blizz should just scrap making expansions and just make a WoW 2, a completely new game with different mechanics and level system.
Then make WoW: Legacy servers. Literally makes everyone happy.

>>376193561
Yeah, we should just cure cancer with the infinite resources and time we have for it since it would make everyone happy!

Fuck that. I am glad that Blizzard never caved in for legacy servers. The recent demand is just a short term fad. Already not as many people played Nostalrius/now Elysium because they realized that the romanticized viewpoint of Vanilla is bullshit, while now the private server community in general is moving on from vanilla hype to TBC hype already proving what a fad this whole steaming pile of legacy server bullshit is.

>>376193831
>the private server community in general is moving on from vanilla hype to TBC hype already
that progression has always been the plan

>>376178504
Legion died for me when I realized class halls weren't phased to individual players and my mage tower had 100 mages with fire balls floating around their head running around

>>376194098
But this is progression though. You aren't transferring your toons from a Vanilla server to a TBC server. Not to mention no Vanilla server has survived getting to Naxx nor do many TBC servers have fully working Naxx so personal progression's not been there either. There are some peeps doing private servers with actual vanilla/tbc/wrath progression, but those aren't the popular ones the hype trains are about. Hype trains are on Nostalrius, Elysium, Gummy, etc. Standalone iteration servers.

>>376194098
It isn't actual progression if what I meant by my first sentence, sorry. Also if you meant that a fully running TBC server was the endgame in terms of servers, no it wasn't. There have been blizzlike TBC attempts for years, but no interest at this level till now.

>>376194361
that's the idea though, not that any private server has ever pulled it off, blizzard could certainly do it better if they wanted

Just shoot me, senpai.

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>>376194667
forgot pic

>static loot, i want to go into a dungeon and know what i need out of it instead of just praying for rng rolls
>design world around having people in it, add back group quests, give incentives to play together
>remove garrison/instanced housing shit
>remove group finders and heavy reliance on cross realms
>give all classes a bit more meat on the bones while still keeping them all viable to play
>remove multiple fucking raid difficulties but just make raids require coordination and class mastery, keep all raids relevant throughout the xpac, no catchup every patch
>remove artifacts/welfare legendaries

This would make wow playable again but unfortunately Blizzard, WoWs playerbase and even the industry itself isnt what it used to be. Blizzards nu fans wouldnt stand it and most people who loved old wow for what it was arent really interested any more. At least we'll always have Vanilla/BC/WotLK servers.

>>376179240
>PvE matters
Fuck you, PvP was where it was at. Where its always been at. And giving everyone base 80% resil was the death of all world PvP.

Wrath was great in that respect. PvE did hella damage, but made you squishy. PvP gear gave you more defense, but you killed things slower. You wanted PvE gear? Git gud and learn to raid. Now you have to arena and raid as well as do dailies for rep to buy enchants.

Then there was the talent tree. Lots of people followed one spec, but there were times when you'd choose different variations to make up for your lack of skill or the lack of skill of your partners.

Wrath was the single expansion that I screenshot the most ragers pissed off at me for killing them for hours.

>>376195069
Most of that stuff isn't even an issue or doesn't exist at all, it's obviously you haven't played in years

There are ton of group quests,

>>376195495
Why would i play neo-WoW?

>>376193349
I don't even have a problem with LFR per say. It's part of the game. But Flex does what LFR was supposed to do, better, and it doesn't come out of no where and hold your hand while it gives you a blow job, reassuring you that no matter how badly you fuck up, you can try again and the encounter will be easier. Fuckssake I still remember determination 8, or 9 stacked on Archimonde in HFC when he was new.

>the game would have FAR less people playing it if LFR was not an option anymore.

WoW's subscription counts were at their highest in Wrath, with no LFR. The introduction of LFR was precipitated in a massive loss in subs. It was a lazy way to keep people playing by completely removing any barrier for entry to raiding, which in turn pissed off the core demographic. You know, the people you generally want to avoid pissing off?

>Mythic+ has only expanded the scene for endgame PvE content. Higher level Mythic+ is supposed to remove a bit of incentive from mythic raiding, because it's another thing you can do beside Mythic raiding for challenging endgame. Hell, being a Mythic+ tank is much harder than being a Mythic Raider tank because of the requirements asked of the player.

Mythic+ introduces an endless treadmill which for the hardcore player has to be run relentlessly because whatever you're not doing, someone else is for a tangible benefit. It's classic era PVP all over again, complete with the implication that to hit rank 14 you'd better get used to poop socking for 18 hours a day. Never mind that it means that the best gear in the game isn't even necessarily coming from the hardest content- mythic raids- in the game.

And even if you're not the most bleeding edge hardcore player, so what? Now unless you get a legendary item that's BIS in a gear slot, you're never ever done.

>>376195556
Cause I've been playing with the same guys for 10 years and we like playing and hanging out with each other. Grinding AP isn't bad when you're in voice chat with 10 buds.

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>>376192895
>tfw nostalgia keeps bringing you back
>tfw you're dissappointed everytime and regret resubbing
>tfw it's dead and you can't let go
>rinse and repeat every few months

>>376195729
>tfw the last time i resubbed i played for 20 minutes

>>376194564
If they wanted being the key term there. The return on investment for Legacy Servers is far lower than you guys think. Not to mention there's the "this game sucks why's the world so empty?" guys, who would be even more pissed because unlike expansions that at least make sure that everybody hangs out in the endgame area by the end so it doesn't actually feel empty, legacy servers would actually make the world feel empty because of how possible community split might happen on a per iteration basis and how they won't be able to just hangout between each other.

>>376195763
>resub and want to play for a month
>as soon as I log in someone I used to raid with whispers me to catch up
>they want me to raid with them again
>I get stuck raiding for a year
>enjoy it

>>376195069
they need to roll loot back to wrath or cata, it's so insanely bad for all gear to be reduced to equivalence points in pawn, or switching from dps to healer and wearing the exact same gear

>>376195495
>There are ton of group quests
and with faction tagging they don't even require a group :^)

>>376193349
>Except the fastest way to gain AP is through running content that gives it in groups. The same with Legendary farming as well.

But you're never done grinding AP. Legion is an abusive girlfriend who thinks you're never good enough for her but refuses to let you break up with her without her having the last say.

Remember, in every other expansion, when you got a new weapon, you just used it. There was no endless grind associated with bringing it up to speed. I mean, yeah, weapon skill was a thing, but that was gone by mid Wrath for a reason.

And legendary gear is bullshit. To speak in very flat terms, tying individual items that can boost your DPS by 15% to an incredibly small RNG which then shares a loot table with items that are neat, but functionally competitive with epic gear, you've built a system that is going to make people swear at you and break bottles over your head. People one week into Legion were getting BIS items that will likely stay that way till the end of the expansion. Me? Prydaz. I was playing a DPS spec. I legitimately feel bad for anyone who wanted to play Legion hardcore and got fucked up the ass by this system and got benched by someone who was roughly as competent as them but didn't get pig fucked by the RNG.

>Claim that guilds haven't changed in any meaningful ways after posting examples that it has?

Functionally there is nothing different about guilds today than if you were playing classic. One of the two social backbones of WoW- your friends list and your guild- hasn't actually changed in any meaningful way since classic. I mean, fine, you get passive bonuses that don't really matter, and access to heirloom gear that could have been given by any other source and not lost anything in the change. If everything else is going CRZ, why can't guild membership exactly?

i resubbed about a year ago, after quitting in Catalcysm

HOLY SHIT, pvp is now a fucking gong show. Literally. I got fucking chinese panda garbage pvp battlegrounds atleast a dozen times in a row.

it was fucking HELL leveling through that garbage

>OOKA DOOKA! WE MNKEY MEN! OOOH OOH!

Whatever happened to subtlety? whatever happened to zones like westafall- where you arent heralded as the great saviour of the fucking fish people for bringing them 8 bear steaks.

when i finally got to The Legion island i laughed. Zero original shit.

You got

- recycled night elves
- undead night elves
- recycled vrykul
- the legion...again...this time with attitude!
- actual night elves
- recycled tauren

atleast in cata they tried new shit. The indiana jones area with the cat men was fun.

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>>376178504
legion was never good faggot

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>>376194213

When they announced artifacts I had just assumed they were going to assign random transmogs to other people's weapons so that you could still look like the only person with your special weapon.

Instead they made it as obvious as can be that despite the story telling you you're special, everyone else is just as special. So whats the fucken point?

>>376196335
>HOLY SHIT, pvp is now a fucking gong show.
From my experience, no matter how good or bad your team is, if the enemy team has more healers than you its GG you lose.

One healer can easily heal themselves through at least 2 dps and if you get 2 healers in the mix, you just leave the objective and go somewhere else. I miss when healers actually had to cast.

>>376196529
>so whats the point

the point is that with artifacts they now have to make one less equipabble item. There was HUNDREDS of different weapons you could equip throughout the game

it cost blizzard a pretty penny to have someone render/program/design all those weapons

artifacts get rid of that

>blizzard: heres your artifact!
>you: cool! so in dungeons can i replace it or...
>blizzard: no, no more weapons, just artifact.

>>376178895
Wait, they took out WSG? What's the point of removing a BG when they always spent so little time on them in the first place?
I'm never going back to WoW (quit about six years ago) but that still makes me a bit angry.

>>376194213
>>376196529
do people unironically want more phasing and mary sue champion NPC dicksucking horseshit

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>>376179953
>The reason Wrath did so well
>Wrath was a mistake.

If you still play and haven't cleared mythic NH at this point you need to consider playing LoL. The day the new traits became available was a the flood gate opening. If you pvp good luck on that one also if you play the shit classes.

>>376178584
It's annoying only for people who were spoiled by how piss easy WoD was. I can't believe /v/ complains about casuals and then can't handle one of the easiest grinds in a mmo

>>376196743
lmao why the fuck do you think like this?

WSG was not removed, that anon is just reminiscing.

>>376193349
>Essentially tell Blizzard to stop introducing new features to the game because anything/everything, no matter what they introduce, will have at least some vocal haters? Are you new to WoW?

WoW's reached old age, which means that like every other long lived MMORPG it hits a bad spot. Radical changes designed to bring in new players will ostracize the reliable player base you enjoy. Think Star Wars Galaxies. People lost their shit when the game dramatically lowered the bar for entry.

With a decade-old MMORPG you can either try to appeal to new markets, or hold on to the one you have. You can't really do both. In that sense Blizzard really needs to commit to one or the other because it's trying to do both and failing.

>No, you mean how it helps you meaningfully interact with the world along with others. The people who only care about muh community went over to the social media craze.

The environment figures into it, but what I keep coming back to is that what I enjoyed when I raided from classic through early Wrath was the community of people I was engaging with, not the game itself. World of Warcraft is a mediocre RPG, and if there was no player base, if it were a solo game, I doubt most people would be playing it.

>>376193514

But Classic era raids also were not tuned with the expectation that, say, all of your 2-handed DPS have Askhandi. Mythic raids are significantly up-tuned because of the fact that there are individual legendary items that can boost a character's DPS by 10, 15% on their own. People made a big fucking deal out of it even though classic era raiding was embarrassingly easy until you hit C'thun and Naxx 40 mostly because it was semi-exclusive. People made a big deal out of things like Askandi and the Untamed Blade precisely because they were unusual, even among raiders. You got to be that guy.

>>376196651
i miss vanilla/bc pvp

yes, i miss the rockpaperscissors game. Cause it was fun and it gave certain classes an advantage in certain scenarios.

Mage >warlock
Warlock > priest
Rogue >warlock
Warrior > rogue
everyone > ret pally

now everyone heals, everyone tanks, and everyone dps's.

>>376180658
I unironically enjoyed ICC's airship battle

>>376187695
>It goes from 1.9 million to 10 million so you have to sit on your hands and wait for artifact research to catch up which takes around 6 fucking ranks to do so or 18 days until it becomes viable to avoid the Korean level grind.
Why do people repeat this? if you wait you will be forever behind people who didn't wait, just play the fucking game

>>376195608
The Flex system only scales by number of players. It does none of what LFR does.

>WoW's subscription counts were at their highest in Wrath
Correlation isn't causation though. That was literally the main point of my post. If you really wanna go full correlation, Wrath didn't need an LFR because it is still to this day the most braindead and easy of all the expansion packs. Due to modern day style approach to threat/class resource but not the more complex mechanics dungeons/raids have today to make up for watering down older systems, Wrath was easy in every way possible. It should then be the most hated expansion. The core demographic doesn't give a fuck about the easy mode shit as long as they have their hard mode content. The reason for WoW's sub count dropping has less to do directly with comparisons between its iterations and more with what competed with WoW OUTSIDE the MMO world (social media, League of Legends, etc.)

> It's classic era PVP all over again, complete with the implication that to hit rank 14 you'd better get used to poop
You don't physically lose progress you have already worked on though like the r14 grind. This comparison makes no sense.

>Never mind that it means that the best gear in the game isn't even necessarily coming from the hardest content- mythic raids- in the game.
Higher level Mythic+ is just as challenging as Mythic raiding can be, and only then do you get an actually decent chance of getting gear as good or better than mythic raiding. Initial drop rate chances are stupidly low. Like for example Karazhan and it's raid equivalent in progression, the EN. For Kara's stuff to be better than EN, it's like 0.1% chance if the base item is the best item in Mythic Karazhan (the best stuff drops at 2% with a 5% chance for it to become better than Mythic EN.)

>Now unless you get a legendary item that's BIS in a gear slot, you're never ever done.
You know you can increase the drop rates for them, right?

>>376180658
>do rag back in the day
>all the melee die everytime- thats the strat
>minute into the fight- guild leader gives my class leader the signal
>the signal- to cast curse of elements, dot up, and commit suicide

it was funny that that was legit the strat for rag

>>376196914
>Warrior > rogue
>not warrior > everything
Lemme re-educate you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXX8URSUWm0

>>376184593
Learn to fucking type you god damn neanderthal

>>376179240

It peaked at Cataclysm. Sorry.

>>376196914
>Mage >warlock
>vanilla
not in a million years lmao

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>>376182284
Product Manager here. Those are all hollow spin metrics.

Record DAU in HS is the only metric that holds on a quarterly report. The rest is marketing fluff. (From Blizzard? SHOCKING)

Less NEETs being more hopelessly addicted to the Korean grindfest called Legion than the dropoff majority of players is not impressive. It's fucking pathetic.

King's DAU:MAU ratio is impressive, given they actually report player numbers and it's in the millions, but who fucking cares?

>>376197165
I played a warlock for a few months and then did shadow priest. It was depressing to see how much more effective they were in that role in PvP. I was never a raider or even a hardcore dungeon guy so I only ever had blues or BG rep epics, but that was enough for my shadow priest to take on supergeared raiders while my warlock could work 10x as hard for 20% of the effect.
Fuck you, Blizzard. I'm still mad.

Vanilla/BC/Wrath vet recently subbed and have played for a month.Time Gating completly fuckedme. Like I could get exalted with Nightfallen in day but you only get so many world quest a day. So its at least a 2 week waiting time to exalted.

I have like 60k order resources with nothing to spend them on except that coin that never drops extra gear.

After you finish all the time gated content you really don't have anything to do.

I tried to join Rated Battleground groups in LFG but the player base for it is pretty toxic, much more than league actually. For arenas its worse you could get lucky and get in a pug rated bg group but for arena if you weren't there from the start of the expansion and gathered up ratings then no one wants to play with you. So 50% of the game is cut off except for a few people in the pvp community who don't really give new players a chance.

I pugged normal nighthold and got pretty far in. Only problem is it was way too long, way longer longer than Naxx and Kara. I was in there for like 4 hours and we were still 3 bosses away from ending it. People got exhausted and everyone stopped trying. Plus the bosses didn't really feel fun like the ones in Kara and Naxx.

So overall the PVE is ok not as good as BC and wrath just decent, the casual part of the game is alright if it wasn't time gated I could do it in like 3 days, The PVP part is just garbage and very toxic. Its very selective, not very skillful and no way you are gonna PVP unless you already have a high rated freind that can get you contacts with other high rated PVP's so you can get into groups.

>>376197075
Because anyone who understands math understands why a developer would apply nearly exponential growth to a grind.

If they wanted a clear, transparent grind they would have done a repeat of WOD and MOP where you were sent into a raid instance to go colllect 60 ogre dildos and 30 fel orc butt plugs. Instead they make you grind a number so that you can grow your number to spend your number on upgrades that increase in cost exponentially every time you spend your numbers.

Unless you're in a hardcore raiding guild there is absolutely no reason to not wait on AR either. It's illogical to grind AP now when in a week it'll be worth twice as much AP, but AK isn't retroactive so you can either do twice as much work now, or get twice the benefit from the same amount of work later.

>>376196808

I prefer being a random grunt to the special hero. But if they are going the special hero route it seems like they should have followed through. Instead they left a constant and direct reminder that everyone else is getting the same treatment by being able to see their one-in-a-lifetime artifacts.

If it were my call WoW would still have something closer to classic WoW where you were a nameless grunt doing grunt work and Thrall didn't know you by name let alone trust you to save the world alone.

>>376197371
mage in vanilla was a glass cannon that could take down anyone with pom pyro, then they auto died

i miss shitting on paladins; wish blizzard would bring that back

>get in the dress

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>tfw you've been on 4chan so long that Wrathbabbies are now the majority of /v/

Wrath certainly had it's moments, but it paled in comparison to BC. The first tier of Cata was a return to form for Blizzard, but bad descions in Wrath led to it's downfall.

>>376197396
I also played lock in vanilla and felt like I could 1v1 anything but a Fury Warrior regardless of gear advantage. But to be fair most people were scrubs back then so there's no shame in being a shitter.

>>376178504
>Ap grind
>mythic grind
WoW always had repetitive tasks, but its just overwhelming now.
So i just gave up on it, i felt more like a job routine than a game.

>>376197514
>tfw you've been on 4chan so long people STILL fucking complain about WOTLK players

Playing since Vanilla
Don't give a single fucking shit

Just happy to be able to still play the fucking game all these years later

>>376197427
But it's not illogical.
Me and you have the same AK
You wait 6 days to get AK, I play through those 6 days.
If we play the same, I will always have more AP than you.

You are hurting your character because not seeing big numbers make you feel bad,

>>376197514
Actually the first raid tier in Cata was the buggiest raid tier blzizard ever released. You had to exploit to even kill the majority of bosses. It wasn't hard they were jjust bugged.

>>376197514
BC was great but it started certain things that led WoW down a dark path

>Naxx raider: welp! time to get into the burning crusade!
>'finds a green better than his ultra rare orange legendary 5 minutes into hellfire penninsula
>Naxx Raider:...welp

the stats, oh god the stats. I think people are pushing two million health in the game now arent they?

>>376197708
>big numbers are bad because they are big

>>376197474
Arcane Power was the 31 point talent, right? So if they went for the pom pyro build they didn't have Ice Block and could be fearlocked 100-0. They couldn't one-shot unless you were literally in greens or something

>we need to make pvp more balanced, we are sick of long term players being rewarded and out stat/gear new players
>lets give everyone the ilvl weapon, but make it so it can increase ilvl and gives you skills the more time you put into it
>lets also equalize stats in pvp, but give people with higher ilvl a slight advantage
What was the fucking point blizz?

>>376197587
difference is the repetitive tasks used to be FUN

>go around the world, to gather materials, to upgrade your professions, so you can find the one trainer in a dungeon somewhere so you can then learn a way to craft your VERY FIRST epic!
>go earn the respect of the Horde by defeating alliance in battlegrounds! when you gather enough marks of the alliance you can turn them in for some armour!

now

>play facebook games to earn AP!

>>376197708
My Demon Hunter has 4.7 million HP. Not even well geared either.

>>376196262
>But you're never done grinding AP. Legion is an abusive girlfriend who thinks you're never good enough for her but refuses to let you break up with her without her having the last say.
See, it's not something you're supposed to completely immediately just like that though. It's essentially a grind that's meant to last you the whole expansion in some way, shape, or form.

>Legendaries
You can increase drop rates for them, others can be crafted. They made crafting professions useful again.

>I legitimately feel bad for anyone who wanted to play Legion hardcore and got fucked up the ass by this system and got benched by someone who was roughly as competent as them but didn't get pig fucked by the RNG.
And really this is where honestly the cool bit does come in about Legion. Everybody has this "I need to max out AP NOW and get ALL the legendaries and everything Titanforged to do well." But stuff like Gul'dan have proven to show otherwise. One of the reasons Mythic Gul'dan has such a low clearing rate is because everybody thinks they just need to grind more or get more lucky with drops, but what they are missing is player skill. Actual skill and coordination is what still thankfully matters in the end.

>you get passive bonuses that don't really matter
Mobile banking changing how farming/crafting worked for guilds. Cash flow leading to interesting ways of abuse before it was dropped. Guild challenges, guild achievements, and the items attached to them creating incentives for guild-based teamwork in ways that didn't happen vanilla-wrath.

>If everything else is going CRZ, why can't guild membership exactly?
This can be abused to get all sorts of shit from a lesser populated realm or a different realm type.

>>376197708

Naxx raiders were a very tiny minority of WoW players at the time.
I'll be honest and admit I was excited when I saw players coming of Ramps with those blue plate pants with 3 sockets in them.

>>376197686

Throne I guess? I never had problems with the first few bosses. When they worked, they were harder than most of ICC.

>>376197708
Thats bullshit you could raid kara in Naxx gear

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>quit when 7.2 landed
>the raid still isnt out yet
What is there to do even on the game right now?

>>376197856
>play Facebook games to earn ap
wut

Did you even play legion?

>>376197806
>fear lock

you are talking about the first few months of wow arent you?

cause that got nerfed, moreso than ANY OTHER ability in WoW ever.

>B: fear doesnt last forever
>B: in fact fear lasts 10 seconds now
>warlocks: but what about other classes that have abilities that last longer than that...
>B: also damage gets rid of fear now
>warlocks: but...
>B: also fear can randomly fail at any time now, yes even at 1 second
>warlock:....
>B: aaaand dimishing returns, also every ability since vanilla that negates fear will still do so 10 years from now even with all these nerfs

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>>376197856
>play facebook games to earn AP!

>>376197103
The point to LFR was to lower the bar for entry so that a casual player could raid. Flex does that without stupid push-button-get-a-raid functionality.

>That was literally the main point of my post. If you really wanna go full correlation, Wrath didn't need an LFR because it is still to this day the most braindead and easy of all the expansion packs.

Exactly one guild was able to do zero light yogg before it had to get nerfed by Blizzard. Wrath wasn't hard, but it had hard encounters. No one did them, which was part of why the abortive TOC patch had to be added; Blizzard needed the gear reset because no one did Ulduar hard modes.

>You don't physically lose progress you have already worked on though like the r14 grind. This comparison makes no sense.

It's a grind you're never logically done with. Mythic+ is actually WORSE because you will never reach a point where you can stop doing it for logical upgrades until the next expansion. At least the biblical grind of classic era PVP eventually ended.

>Initial drop rate chances are stupidly low. Like for example Karazhan and it's raid equivalent in progression, the EN. For Kara's stuff to be better than EN, it's like 0.1% chance if the base item is the best item in Mythic Karazhan (the best stuff drops at 2% with a 5% chance for it to become better than Mythic EN.)

But that chance is still there. There's someone out there with LFR gear that's competitive with Mythic gear.

>You know you can increase the drop rates for them, right?

Yeah, gambling sucks. Telling me that if I do something extra I can get more tokens doesn't make me want to do it more. It actually makes me want to play less. The more I've learned about the legendary system the less I like it and by proxy the less I want to play. They explicitly added it because they wanted to capture that Diablo 3, 'Cool!' moment but in reality when I had Prydaz drop for me my exact words were, 'son of a bitch.'

>>376197742
big numbers are bad when you need a stat squish more and more frequently, they tried to sneak in mob scaling because they already need a squish between the first and second tiers of legion

>>376197909
>If everything else is going CRZ, why can't guild membership exactly?
more like gotta get those xfer shekels

>>376197994

You could do it naked. Lots of guilds did it as a challenge during bc

>>376197684
Not wanting to do twice the work for the same number is not the same as not getting excited because it's not a big number.


Even untrained monkeys can tell when they're getting a raw deal.

>>376190271
Hey, I think you've got the wrong door. The leather club's two blocks down.

>>376198048
Nope, post-Death Coil buff. And it doesn't matter how many (deserved) nerfs it got, that ability was nowhere close to balanced until they added PVP trinkets in TBC

>>376178637
it's not fun

I haven't touched WoW since Wrath of the Lich King.

...are all my old characters still there?

>>376196819
There's no contradiction there, anon. They're just saying that Wrath did well, as in drawing in a bunch of players and customers, because it casualized the raid system. But anon is against such casualization themselves in the way they want to play the raids.

>>376198312
They should be but you may have to change all their names if someone stole yours.

>>376198235
that ability was needed to negate the fact that warlocks are a caster class that relies on damage over time abilities

a mage could drop you in 3 seconds but a warlock needed a fucking whole minute to drop someone

and thats IF HE wasnt be healed, or having half the dots cleansed off him by a healer. The fear was to increase the life expectancy of the warlock

it was UTTERLY useless in pve; maybe as a gag in MC if the raid was pissing you off

>>376198312
yes

but they are most likely on a dead server

all but 6 servers now are dead. So if you want to see anyone outside of the CRZ, you will need to pay up for a character transfer and possibly a faction change since the top 3 servers are one faction dominated, like a 50 to 1 ratio

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Our raiding community lasted 11 years. One of the oldest, if not the oldest on my server.

All gone now.

>>376197909
>See, it's not something you're supposed to completely immediately just like that though. It's essentially a grind that's meant to last you the whole expansion in some way, shape, or form.

OK, but I want a grind where I am either completely done, or for which it becomes a choice after I clear a threshold. There's no exalted status here.

>You can increase drop rates for them, others can be crafted. They made crafting professions useful again.

Doesn't change the fact that wildly powerful items share a loot table with items that are unremarkable at best. It's a bad idea to build a system where one week into the expansion some people purely by chance will have a BIS legendary drop for them while someone else can spend months trying to get it to drop. And lets not forget, the entire reason we don't have legendary quests anymore like we had in MOP and WOD was because Blizzard didn't like how they felt mandatory.

The crafting bit is a huge throw away. If people didn't bitch endlessly about how broken the legendary system is Blizzard would not have done shit.

>Everybody has this "I need to max out AP NOW and get ALL the legendaries and everything Titanforged to do well." But stuff like Gul'dan have proven to show otherwise. One of the reasons Mythic Gul'dan has such a low clearing rate is because everybody thinks they just need to grind more or get more lucky with drops, but what they are missing is player skill. Actual skill and coordination is what still thankfully matters in the end.

No, Blizzard admitted that they over-tuned mythic nighthold specifically because of those retarded legendary items they added. You can't not when the presence of a single item can give a character a 15% DPS boost. Well, legendary gear and then the shitty titanforging system.

>This can be abused to get all sorts of shit from a lesser populated realm or a different realm type.

So only let them draw from their own server type.

The dirty little secret about RNG is that it is necessary to some extent to keep platerbases full.
Games that are completely balanced with no ENG allow the sweaty tryhards to dominate everyone else. This is outputting to most who only game as a hobby.

>>376198524
Can raids even be called raids now? Before it took skill to down even a group of mobs, moreso if it was a boss. Now they got rid of all the mechanics and made everything damage sponges that makes it feel like you are a pro raider, but really its just a mind dead dungeon.

>>376198524
hah! my server has been dead for 6 years now

i remember getting the black scarab for our guild leader in the AHNQ gate event way back

there are old characters on there with defias gear...i... i remember thinking it looked cool way back then...when i was younger...i remember thinking... ill level this guy next week

>>376196907
>With a decade-old MMORPG you can either try to appeal to new markets, or hold on to the one you have. You can't really do both. In that sense Blizzard really needs to commit to one or the other because it's trying to do both and failing.
But only committing to one will lead to net lower subs even if more of the group catered to will subscribe. Look at MMOs that are more focused than WoW on various other aspects.

>but what I keep coming back to is that what I enjoyed when I raided from classic through early Wrath was the community of people I was engaging with, not the game itself
Exactly, and you don't need an MMO for community engagement. That's what social media is for, and that's where most of it happens today.

>World of Warcraft is a mediocre RPG, and if there was no player base, if it were a solo game, I doubt most people would be playing it.
During the times of vanilla-wrath yeah it kinda was. But ever since, they have really stepped up mechanically how PvE encounters work on higher difficulty. When doing the best content, the game's far harder than the simple straightforward stuff vanilla-wrath were offering. This is why WoW continues to focus on challenging intricate endgame PvE content. It's the only thing its theme park style of MMOs really offer. The muh community guys went the way of social media. The muh character builds went the way of League Of Legends. The muh PvP went the way of the countless other typical online multiplayer options that have gotten big since. Vanilla-Wrath came out in an environment when these things weren't flourishing compared to how much they were flourishing later. Also why if you go to the vanilla-wrath private servers they aren't chatty except for LFG/LFM/WTB/WTS, being no different to retail's community.

>You got to be that guy.
Current WoW has less strict, more open ended gearing though compared to vanilla's shitshow. It's possible to do Mythic Gul'dan without a single Legendary.

>>376184593
>He doesn't know about the POS, Halls of Reflection dungeons which geared players to be able to take on ICC without doing other raids

Clearly you didn't play or are retarded.

>>376198683
A boss in it's entirety in Classic, BC, wrath... they're often less complicated than a single phase of a current raid boss. LFR excluded of course.


If anything, raids have gotten too hard. It's not good to have a community where the gap between your casual scrub and the bleeding edge is night and day.

>>376198835
they achieved that difficulty by dumbing down classes, buffs, consumables, etc

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>>376198913

>>376178504
At this point, they need to release WoW 2

>>376198683
what the fuck are you talking about? this is like the complete opposite of what reality is.

Your LFR raids don't count for reality, mythic is literally "do these mechanics or wipe the raid" more times than not.

>>376198835
>But only committing to one will lead to net lower subs even if more of the group catered to will subscribe. Look at MMOs that are more focused than WoW on various other aspects.

Eventually you run out of groups to alienate.

>Exactly, and you don't need an MMO for community engagement. That's what social media is for, and that's where most of it happens today.

If I wanted to talk to people, I'd talk to people. If I wanted to play games, I'd play games. If I wanted to play an MMORPG with people I like to talk to....oh. Yeah, no, facebookreddittwitteryoutube didn't replace WoW. The only thing that's changed is that people don't talk over WoW any more and it's not because they'd prefer talking to strangers over rebbit and twatter.

>Current WoW has less strict, more open ended gearing though compared to vanilla's shitshow.

You have fewer choices for gearing now than ever before. There's virtually no conscious choice between one piece of gear and another.

>It's possible to do Mythic Gul'dan without a single Legendary.

It's not wise.

>>376199234
Seriously, I don't even like wow anymore and last time I played in wod I was surprised how much more platform-y the fights felt. It's one of the only good things current wow has going for it.

>>376198059
>Flex does that without stupid push-button-get-a-raid functionality.
...what? Do you not play the game? You know that everything bar Mythic is flexible, right? Again, not the point here. In a day when the only reason for people to play WoW, no matter how much they otherwise try to be like the "old days" is endgame PvE content because non-MMOs do everything else better, there definitely needs to an LFR for the most casual of players.

>Exactly one guild was able to do zero light yogg before it had to get nerfed by Blizzard.
Yes, because shit tuning adding artificial difficulty is such a good attempt at testing player skill!

>It's a grind you're never logically done with.
It's a grind meant to last a player through the whole expansion. It ends when the expansion ends. The end of the expansion is literally its logical conclusion.

>But that chance is still there. There's someone out there with LFR gear that's competitive with Mythic gear.
I really don't see what's wrong with this. Complaining about a literal small handful who probably can't progress otherwise at all since they have no skill is kinda ridiculous and on par with people back then sending death threats because their server first Ashkandis went to a Ret Pally. Fun fact: people who usually complain about this stuff aren't the actual hardcore raiders. People who hardcore raid care about the progression first and foremost, and how someone else is effected by gear drops doesn't matter to them.

>Telling me that if I do something extra I can get more tokens doesn't make me want to do it more. It actually makes me want to play less.
So...you would prefer the more straightforward and tedious grinding towards it like the old days? Like I don't get what's wrong here. How does having a lower drop rate for the same item make one wanna play less?

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i would like to advice you guys to be careful
the grab got a knife

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>playing wow past bc

>>376199175
I mean, if you like raid encounters that behave like a fat sperge lord who pitches his shit every time you don't do exactly as you're told, be my guest. Having an entire raid act like they're in a synchronized swimming competition isn't exactly my idea of fun. Every time I did heroic (today's mythic) Malkorok I wasn't having fun.

So when I say, 'too hard' maybe what I'm really saying is that boss design has gone to shit. You either play at a difficulty where you can completely ignore mechanics or you play at one where if you don't, if one person in a 20 person raid slightly screws up, the whole raid wipes and you get to start all the fuck over.

Once upon a time Blizzard specifically tried to avoid these kinds of fights because if enough people lagged just enough on Heigan the Unclean, you were fucked.

>>376198586
>Doesn't change the fact that wildly powerful items share a loot table with items that are unremarkable at best.
How's this any different from not just versions of WoW, but MMO history?

>It's a bad idea to build a system where one week into the expansion some people purely by chance will have a BIS legendary drop for them while someone else can spend months trying to get it to drop.
Oh...you mean that randomized drop rates means that it's possible someone who has been grinding for less time can get a very powerful item just like in how it has been in WoW, MMOs, drop rate/chance based stuff historically?? No way!

>No, Blizzard admitted that they over-tuned mythic nighthold specifically because of those retarded legendary items they added.
Not really. They didn't nerf Mythic Gul'dan for the longest time, and he finally got nerfed like yesterday but with a very minor one. World first for Mythic Gul'dan had a Paladin in top 5 DPS that wasn't amazingly geared and a goddamn Ret Pally.

>So only let them draw from their own server type.
And the lesser populated realms? Along with the abuse how would Blizzard accommodate something like Feats Of Strength for both player and guild?

>>376197514
It's not so much that Wrath was great as it is everything afterwards was shit. I started launch day and remember telling my guild mid-wrath that the game could never possibly get any worse than it was at that moment. Then cata, mop, wod, and legion proved me so very wrong. I know exactly how much I disliked wrath but I'll take that back in a heartbeat over what we've got now.

>>376199427
>Yes, because shit tuning adding artificial difficulty is such a good attempt at testing player skill!

But your exact complaint was that Wrath was too easy. Very few people did any of the Ulduar hard modes. Most people didn't do ICC Heroic either. Anything else?

>It's a grind meant to last a player through the whole expansion. It ends when the expansion ends. The end of the expansion is literally its logical conclusion.

Grinds you're never done with are a terrible idea. And when it's for your weapon, it's even worse.

>I really don't see what's wrong with this. Complaining about a literal small handful who probably can't progress otherwise at all since they have no skill is kinda ridiculous and on par with people back then sending death threats because their server first Ashkandis went to a Ret Pally. Fun fact: people who usually complain about this stuff aren't the actual hardcore raiders. People who hardcore raid care about the progression first and foremost, and how someone else is effected by gear drops doesn't matter to them.

If you have two groups of people, one doing calculus and the other banging rocks together, and you tell the people banging rocks together that they can keep doing that, you'll eventually only have rock bangers. Seeing gear go to the wrong classes- Paladins were healers in classic, they were shitty versions of rogues or warriors otherwise- is frustrating, sure, but the LFR hero did absolutely nothing to earn that mythic scaled gear.

And on the flip side it now demands that the mythic raider do LFR, normal, heroic and mythic each week because an upgrade could drop. And if they don't but someone else does and RNG doesn't bend them over a barrel, guess what?

>how do we fix wow

stop listening to the players. Ever since they started doing that in Cataclysm the game has gone significantly downhill.

In fact the only decent ideas they've come up with since then have been things that were direct opposite of what players wanted (like no flying for two expansions)

>>376186412
BRF is hands down the best raid since ICC.

Everything about it was perfect.

>>376199137
*sigh imagine thinking that spamming frostbolt with a mana potion occasionally is more complex mage than the frost rotation today. You're fucking retarded. All that stuff is knowledge based and grind based, not skill based.

>>376199287
>Eventually you run out of groups to alienate.
No you don't. That's simplifying things down way too much to how people have reacted to Blizz's decisions and how people react to things in life in general.

>If I wanted to talk to people, I'd talk to people. If I wanted to play games, I'd play games. If I wanted to play an MMORPG with people I like to talk to....oh. Yeah, no, facebookreddittwitteryoutube didn't replace WoW. The only thing that's changed is that people don't talk over WoW any more and it's not because they'd prefer talking to strangers over rebbit and twatter.
This is dumb as shit because you pretend that nobody talks to each other at all. People do communicate today, but with their closest friends/guild buddies and those they are running content with. High difficulty content clearing is impossible without communication today. Again, give Elysium a try; same amounts of communication as retail despite muh Vanilla except for people spamming trade and lfg chat. WoW's specialty entails player cooperation for content that can't be done solo. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with talking, although as I said it's needed for high difficulty stuff. Even Vanilla to an extent is this because you just click inv group for a quest, do it, then leave.

>You have fewer choices for gearing now than ever before. There's virtually no conscious choice between one piece of gear and another.
That's literally what stuff like titanforged offers though. You wanna do ToV? You can either have your EN Mythic gear or have an equivalent Karazhan gear that's titanforged for example.

>It's not wise.
It's been done.

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>>376190271
this was my main while i was still playing.

>>376199792
give me a break, raiders don't like legendaries, casuals don't like legendaries, nobody likes legendaries, it's a terrible system that has required constant tweaks to be minimally acceptable, and they just keep piling unfun shit like ilvl upgrades onto it, even though valor upgrades were already removed once because nobody liked them, but blizzard just can't resist ways to pad content

>>376199427
>How does having a lower drop rate for the same item make one wanna play less?

Suppose you have a candy machine. You push a button, nothing happens. Push it 50 times, you get a variety of junk, empty wrappers, and a few times it gives you your money back. 51st time you finally get a candy bar, but it tastes exactly like that lunch you ate 30 minutes prior, which was unremarkable at best.

If you were then told that if you masturbated the candy machine's button to have a better chance of having a candy bar drop, would you?

I had Prydaz drop. I didn't want Prydaz. The only way to get more legendary gear to drop was the vague act of doing stuff. And there was no promise I wasn't going to just get more junk legendary items. Thanks, no thanks, I called it a son of a bitch when it dropped, I won't be fooled twice.

>>376199792
>How's this any different from not just versions of WoW, but MMO history?

You're not spending a month worth of content hoping that any of it will make these items drop, just once.

>Oh...you mean that randomized drop rates means that it's possible someone who has been grinding for less time can get a very powerful item just like in how it has been in WoW, MMOs, drop rate/chance based stuff historically?? No way!

Except some people had these items drop week one and others were lucky to have one after three or four months. RNG is shitty, but this goes beyond that. And you have to remember, the entire reason we saw the change from the old legendary quests in MOP and WOD was because those rings and cloaks were apparently too mandatory in nature.

>And the lesser populated realms? Along with the abuse how would Blizzard accommodate something like Feats Of Strength for both player and guild?

We already have small servers where no one gets realm firsts for mythic because no one's raiding mythic. If Blizzard is going to destroy the point of playing on a small server with their CRZ bullshit they may as well go full circle.

>>376200206
complex rotation != complex game, grats you can 12123 instead of 1112, it's always catababies with >muh rotation

>>376200206
>This is dumb as shit because you pretend that nobody talks to each other at all.

Really? In my experience everyone's an insulated antisocial fuck in this game. I've had two dungeon finder groups kick me for the explicit reason that I used party chat since I picked the game back up, and I'm only left to guess that I got kicked from LFR for the same reason. The community is complete ass, and it's hard not to come to the conclusion that it's because cross-realm bullshit lets you get away with it.

>That's literally what stuff like titanforged offers though. You wanna do ToV? You can either have your EN Mythic gear or have an equivalent Karazhan gear that's titanforged for example.

Oh, here, take the same items as what we've offered in every expansion but take an extra layer of RNG for a chance at an upgrade. Brilliant.

The idea of everyone has to be on the same level and progress point killed the game. Not even in a video game a socialistic fantasyland works out

>>376200007
>But your exact complaint was that Wrath was too easy.
It was though. Your only examples are basically two fights (HM Yogg and HM LK pre nerf) which were overtuned, thus the only challenging thing from the damn expansion are two fights relying on their artificial difficulty. Bigger difference considering how braindead everything else is.

>Grinds you're never done with are a terrible idea. And when it's for your weapon, it's even worse.
You're done at the end of the expansion. It's how they made sure that a damn artifact level item stays useful throughout. For weapons it especially makes more sense since it can maybe be used for more weapons in the future so something like Sulfuras won't become obsolete despite its Legendary status.

>you'll eventually only have rock bangers
Not only rock bangers though. Calculus in this example like real mythic has a lot more other benefits as well.

>but the LFR hero did absolutely nothing to earn that mythic scaled gear
There will always be a handful of people in every version of this game who happened to get better gear than those doing higher level content because loot has drop rate randomization. The percentage of people who actually get this hasn't changed either because the chances of it happening is still absurdly low.

>And on the flip side it now demands that the mythic raider do LFR, normal, heroic and mythic each week because an upgrade could drop. And if they don't but someone else does and RNG doesn't bend them over a barrel, guess what?
Why would they run LFR at that point? You understand that LFR gear can only get better than Mythic with a certain caveat. If that caveat is fulfilled for the better at base-level, Mythic version of the item, then that'll be better than even the improved version of the LFR item.

Ex. LFR item is ilvl 865, if the item drops, it has 5% to become 880, 1% to become 885. Mythic drops ilvl 880, but 5% to become 895, 1% to become 900. Best gear has same chance as LFR

>playing on a roleplaying server
>some retard's profile is how she's a worgen death knight on a quest to reforge frostmourne
>laugh at this shitty fanfic
>Legion comes out
>you literally reforge frostmourne

This made me realize the writing has become literally fanfic tier.

>we need to reforge frostmourne!
>illidan is... the chosen one of the light
>my character is a dreadlord but instead of being bad he's corrupted by the light and becomes a good guy

>>376200834
if you think that reforging frostmourne is bad you should see the quest that paladins go on to literally recorrupt the ashbringer.

>oh boy, max level, can't wait to do heroics
>815 ilvl required
>thats kind of dumb, but whatever
>get 815 ilvl after doing 300 world quests
>here we go, first heroic at max level
>oh damn, this dps has 890 ilvl gear, so jelly
>do 3x his dps
This shit is retarded. Bring back the challenge mode requirements to do heroics and raids. I don't want to farm another 300 world quests to be able to do raids.

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>used to do dailys like crazy in tbc & wotlk
>skipped cata
>hated doing dailys in pandaria
>came back at end of wod
>all i had to do was log in for raid 2-3 times a week
>legion hits, enjoying new zones, dalaran and butthurt from broken shore events
>hit max lvl
>you have to jump on fucking wine
>you have to do maw m+ for 90th time

gave up after clearing hc EN

i miss hfc

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>Baines story was cut from highmountain
>The only time a tauren is relevant in legion is shaman recruiting Magatha

poor cows.

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>>376200904
Plot twist: he was the healer

>Slow but steady grind that ramps up the longer the expansion goes
Or
>spend months farming resist gear so you can even attempt a raid without blowing up

Man what a hard choice

Will an MMO mouse make me less shit? I always have to look down at my keyboard to hit the right skill, and I never feel fluid during combat.

Wow will never get resurrection. The novelty simply wore off for the majority, so no amount of changes will get them back

>>376201130
>just wait 3 days until the number goes up
wtf i love legion now

>>376201130
Please don't post if you have no experience with the old raids

people keep saying "AP grind", even in game and i think they are retarded, they're just not noticing that it's not a grind, they THINK it's a grind because it's a number you have to keep working up to, but it isn't a grind.

once you hit artifact level 46, your next trait will be in the hundreds of millions, i think the 49 trait is like 230 million or something like that.

guys these aren't grinds, if you think gathering AP for the next month to get one single trait is a grind, then you are mentally ill and need to uninstall the game.
it isn't intended for you to be "grinding" this shit. just keep playing the game normally and the AP will come.

seriously people who are trying to grind this stuff are masochists, bots, addicts. no one is telling you to grind this shit and you aren't falling behind.

>>376201269
Please don't post if your only experience with Naxx is from 2008 onward

Huln Highmountain was the most retarded thing in Legion lore wise yet nobody ever mentions it

>>376201345
>dragons can change into humans and elves but not into cows

okay

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>>376201146
pls god someone respond

>>376201326
You are implying old Naxx is the only raid and even that is mostly covered with resist potions and even t-sets. Making posts like this make people believe you needed fire resist to be magmadar

>>376198190
hey, buzz off

>>376201345
I agree the War of the Ancients shouldn't have even dragged on if there were 300 identical Tauren screaming and eviscerating every demon in sight

>>376201409
That wasn't Huln, that was Ebonhorn

>>376200280
>but blizzard just can't resist ways to pad content
This is where I think you kinda go wrong along with the fact that everyone hates it. If a lot of it were to be removed, the hate would now be coming from the "not enough content" crowd.

>>376200412
...you know there's like a Legendary guide on WoWhead and everything if you're having this much trouble, right?

>You're not spending a month worth of content hoping that any of it will make these items drop, just once.
What? Vanilla especially is very guilty of doing this.

>Except some people had these items drop week one and others were lucky to have one after three or four months.
People who have farmed Rivendare mount or Midnight for so many years still haven't gotten them. A couple people did a couple runs and got them. This is not new to the game.

>And you have to remember, the entire reason we saw the change from the old legendary quests in MOP and WOD was because those rings and cloaks were apparently too mandatory in nature.
Wait, are you supporting that old system? Not that I am entirely against it, but it's not any better than what we have now.

>We already have small servers where no one gets realm firsts for mythic because no one's raiding mythic. If Blizzard is going to destroy the point of playing on a small server with their CRZ bullshit they may as well go full circle.
But with guilds it goes beyond that. Taking advantage of rare spawns, nodes, etc.

>>376200552
More complex encounter mechanics, more complex rotations, basically stuff that actually needs skills, is what matters today. Your threat mathematics and your OOM timing is again, knowledge based, easy as fuck to pull off once explained.

>>376200629
>getting kicked for using party chat
>not having read all of what I wrote
Very suspicious here...I don't think you actually play right now.

>Oh, here, take the same items as what we've offered in every expansion
Wtf is this? They are objectively different items every expansion.

>>376201431
>>376201146
I don't think you really gain anything by having a MMO mouse unless you have too many hotkeys already.

>>376201465
>not using fire resist for MC/BWD
>not using nature resist for AQ
>only Naxx needed it
Way to prove that you never played Vanilla.

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>Chromie quest in the next patch reveals that the legion are working with bronze dragons and then murdered Chromie to keep it a secret

what time period will the next expansion take place?

>>376201345
Hes an even bigger mary sue than Illidan

>>376201146
>>376201431
nope.

spent money on a Logitech G600 and never used it for more than macros and utility stuff like mounting/markers and movement.

Honestly the biggest help is rebinding your keys to a more natural position. For WoW i used to use 1-5, Q, W, E, R, Z, X, C and shift/ctrl for modifiers.

>>376201671
Thanks. I realize most people can handle an F1-F10 rotation, but I can't even handle anything past F6. I'm thinking if I have all of those skills within the reach of my thumb, I wont have to look down everytime we start wiping a mob

>>376201730
Sounds like a good enough excuse for an Old God dominated Black Empire?

>F1-F10
Why.
When I played, my main hotkeys were always 1-5, QEFRTG<YXCV and slight variations like Alt+Q or Shift+E.

>>376201956
>>376201853

>>376201956
I dunno. I always felt like I needed some of those keys that you mentioned..but realize now that I never EVER use QEFRTG<YXCV

>>376202105
...how? Jeez otherwise using all numbers and F-numbers would be such a pain in the hand. Making everything around WSAD into keybinds (while A and D are changed to strafe) I have found is the best option.

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>kill alliance player
>chop them into meat
>set up a fire and picnic
>enjoy a nice meal
This is how WoW was meant to be played.

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Shaman were a mistake

>>376202105
I didn't use Q and E at first because they felt weird, but anon, just try it. You'll get used to it faster than you think. I mean, even one of my friend's gf who never played vidya in her entire life and is a total retard when it comes to playing anything on a keyboard managed to do it, so I'm sure you can, too.

>>376202710
At least Magatha is a Shaman. We got Nerus who isn't even a Paladin nor is he technically alive. Shit, at least we got based Maximillian to make up for it.

>>376196262
If one single legendarny gave you 15% your character had shit gear/stats to begin with. Only spec that had something like this was sub rogue. The more we go into expansion the less relevant legendaries get, best to worst legendaries now give 40k difference in dps at max (more often 25-30, and i mean 2 worst vs 2 best) and you nów have around 700k, if you are a shitter you won't do dps with legendaries