>Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's

>>376046424
He is not right. When I watch porn, i want story, I need it. Sometimes I can't get off if there isn't any

John "how to wipe a hard drive" Cuckmack

When I realized that Carmack doesn''t know shit about game design or games.

John Carmack is a Savant Engineer. Understand that and perhaps you can stop sucking his dick forever.

When I loved Dragon's Dogma, even though its plot is a badly paced, anticlimatic, incomprehensible mess.

>>376046424
That's a very ignorant opinion to have, especially when you work in the fucking industry.

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If that were true why is Wolfenstein still a presence in the FPS market while nobody remembers Faceball 2000?

>>376046947
Maybe, but so far no game plot managed to be as enthralling as literature.

>>376046424
I lost all respect and admiration I ever had for him the second he started working for Mark Zuckerberg.

>>376046662
That's the point.

The story isn't important, but if it isn't there.. it's not enough.

>>376046424
t. facebook employee

>>376046424
Is he wrong? Surely it's not ALWAYS important in a videogame; take Mario for example. It's not a story driven game like Last of Us or Mass Effect

He's absolutely wrong.

>>376047071
wolfenstein 3D had like half a page of story

>>376046424
>op is a stupid nigger

Go watch the old 1970's Taboo series with Honey Wilder and Kay Parker. Full feature films with plot, acting and great sex scenes.

Now watch a Bangbus ep from 2017. Utterly disgusting isn't it?

Watching two hairless, charisma-less things going at it, all the while pretending to enjoy it until cumshot cam happens has ruined modern porn completely.

Storyless games were fine back before 2006. Then Half Life happened and autists like Carmack had to reevaluate their position.

No, this is correct

>A bad story will not make a good game bad, but a good story can make a good game great

>>376047082
And what?

>>376046796
>John Carmack is a Savant Engineer

He's smart but all he did was take existing CG technology and apply it to video games. Even the so-called Carmack Reversal wasn't totally his idea. It still takes skill to do what he did but he's not some coding savant.

>>376047082
And no book has had better gameplay than Mario Kart.

See?

>>376047071
Faceball 2000 is a reskin of midi maze, it is hardly comparable to Wolf 3D

>>376047376
It's not as important as people make it to be.

>>376047408
>what are gamebooks

>>376047082
Games can do things that literature can't. The ending of NieR Automata is something that no other medium can do so comparing the two is a pointless task. Subjective quality aside, plot in that game is pretty fucking important.

>>376047525
What are gamebooks?

>>376046424
i would say hes right. out of all the games i have played. the darkness and shenmue are the games where i actually paid attention to the story

>>376046738
Should have googled from his smartphone

What can you expect? This is coming from a 50 year old virgin who "pioneered" the fps genre (thanks John)

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>>376046738
Carmack is /ourguy/, Romero is the cuck

>>376047406
>He's smart but all he did was take existing CG technology and apply it to video games
wrong, the techniques he used to display realtime 3D weren't existing CG techniques, there were papers on BSPs but they hadn't been applied to 3D graphics yet

>>376046662
Personally, I view porn the same way you would a sporting event. Sure, a bit of interpersonal drama can make it interesting, but I'm mostly interested in watching the professional performance.

>>376047597
>Games can do things that literature can't. The ending of NieR Automata is something that no other medium can do
cringe

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>it feels like you're living and breathing in a minecraft world

opinion discarded

>>376047858
Maybe you should screencap that and post on your favorite subreddit

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>>376046424
Story in a game is like a story in a movie. It's not that important if you're making porn or arcade shooters, but some genres like drama or RPG rely on it..

>>376047597
Sure, but endings in NieR were only a small portion of what made the title great. Story IS important, but gameplay is more. See: first NieR.

>>376046424
From the start.

>>376047985
I seriously hope you don't imply that first Nier was a gameplay masterpiece

>>376047774
that is a misleading title. it was asking who are the most important people in the world of xbox and did a ranking based on those people. its still bullshit though.

>>376048059
Contrarily. First NieR was shat upon because of gameplay.

>>376047985
>See: first NieR.
You mean the game that was carried by its story like every other Taro game because gameplay was incredibly flawed?

>>376048119
I'm referring to reviews. Should have wrote that.

>>376048115
Then I don't get your argument, the game still has a following in contrary to its game play. Just like pretty much every Taro game. I guess good gameplay would be nice there, but that's not the reason why people play Taro games.

>>376046662
t. Cuck

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My way of seeing it is this:

If I can't rip out every single bit of plot your game and enjoy it without, then your game is nothing more than a disgusting cinematic experience. For example, games like Bayonetta, Persona, Final Fantasy, Xenoblade, Metal Gear, Uncharted, TLOU, and etc are bad games because every fan swears that the game is horrible unless there's a story to accompany it.

>>376047951
Ironically RPGs tends to have shit storytelling/writing

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>>376047858
>>376047597

Id say it may be possible in a stage play, but its defintely more nuanced than Carmack gives it credit for.

I remember being shocked in Auto Tomato by how much I actually cared for 9S, how much 2B's infection, etc impacted me, despite how little formal fleshing out the characters actually got.

It somehow sidestepped all my 4chan bred cynicism and Im not entirely sure how it did it. Even when there were plot holes that I neglected to fill in through side quests, it still sold me on the drama.

>>376048214
People may appreciate Taro games for the story, but the first titles received rather unfavourable reviews, correct me if I'm wrong, thanks to gameplay mechanics.

>>376048525
>but its defintely more nuanced than Carmack gives it credit for.
that's a quote from 1990 dumbass

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>>376048286
Because devs are trying to turn them into action Lala-land sandboxes to amuse the normals.

>>376048530
You're not wrong but you kinda missed the point of the argument. The plot in those games is much stronger than the gameplay and is enough to carry it for people that appreciate it and to make them want more. That alone proves that Cormag's opinion is just that. An opinion.

>>376048686
I know, i read masters of doom as well.

Im merely trying to suggest that there are some narrative tricks amd headfuck gimmicks that games should experiment with instead of aping movies. Of course Doom doesnt need them or movie.

Games have reached through the 4th wall before, but you dont usually get games that let you, the player, be a literal deus ex machina.

>>376048838
>>376048947

Let's not beat around the bush though. These games have always had terrible writing, and terrible gameplay. If you thought Nier: Automata, for example, was anything more than a glorified cinematic experience, then I'm afraid you're in for a rude awakening.

>>376048994
breaking the 4th wall is not and should never be a staple of narrative so it's a pretty terrible case for games having stories

>>376049012
Gonna need a little more than that if you want to debate my mans.

>>376048947
I get your point, but note how NieR Automata received positive reviews thanks to Platinum. It just exposes how the industry inspects whether a game is actually "good."

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>>376046424
I kinda agree, but a story can add a charm to the game

>>376048838
Beisdes Bloodlines and Lisa (if you count Lisa as a RPG), I can't think in a RPG with a proper story.

I've played shooters with way better narrative/writing than the average RPG

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>>376049012
I think you are missing the part about CRPGs. And those had a different kind of combat in general so they can't be compared gameplay wise.
>>376049109
4th wall breaking should be reserved for jokes and easter eggs

>>376049169

Consider this then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qkMuyek50A

A 13 minute boss fight where 10 minutes of it is just watching scripted cutscenes. It is no longer a video game at this point, but rather a barely interactive movie.

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My favorite game actually disregards its narrative and embraces its form as digital art and as an unique experience.
Fuck games that exist to tell a story.

>>376049305
You're literally citing /v/'s main argument against story-driven games, i.e. The Last of Us. And that proves your point, bravo.

>>376049268
I would argue that the higher marketing budget the game got put Automata out there. Sure, Platinum gameplay put it up there but I struggle to find reviews that don't rave about the plot more than the gameplay, which is pretty basic for a Platinum game.

>>376049305
>NieR: Automata is an action role-playing video game
>video game
ok

>>376047082
That's because hardly anyone is willing to do anything with the medium that's worthwhile because the autist brigade that is the Gaming Community only ever care about games being "fun", which is akin to film buffs only ever caring about films being "exciting", or music fans only ever caring about music being "catchy". It's sad, it really is.

>>376046424
ITT: Disgusting BioWare customers.
John Carmack is always right.

>>376049853

>NieR: Automata is an action role-playing video game
I take issue with it being called a "video game". It's nothing but cutscenes strung together by glorified quick time events and button mashing segments.

>>376047602
You have to be 18+ years old to post here

>>376049853
I may be cherry-picking, but I find it hard to go on about gameplay in a Platinum title for more than three paragraphs. It's not rocket science.

>>376049109
I wasnt just talking about ending e

I cared about 9s all the way back in the first route, and I'm struggling to put my finger on why.

>>376050336
Nigga, not everything has to be God Hand. Being overly reductive doesn't make you an intellectual.

>>376050141
games are not purely narrative vehicles like literature and film
they're a hybrid of narrative and well, games
saying they're childish for just being 'fun' is a misunderstanding of what games are about

>>376050524
He's not being an intellectual; he's just upset that Dear Esther is regarded as not a game.

>>376050349
Great defense of your precious literature
>greatest cinematic achievement
>taking you to space, then hyperspace then show you the next evolutionary stage

>greatest vidya achievement
>transporting you to an underwater Randian dystopia and using your actions to contradict what you're being told

>greatest literary achievement
>23 hours inside the head of some fucking mick

Are bookfags even trying?

>>376046424
sure, gameplay comes first

but context can make the action so much better
that's why fapping to Samus is so much better than some random blonde 2D woman

>>376050627
Well, there is a reason why "Blood Meridian" is unfilmable. Try harder.

>>376050779
Because they're different media with different strengths and weaknesses?
Write Metal Gear Solid 2, go ahead, I dare you, I double dare you.

>>376050524

>Nigga, not everything has to be God Hand.
I'd prefer it if everything wasn't trying to be the next Gone Home. and Nier: Automato is pretty much the japanese equivalent of Uncharted.

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>>376050932
Need I remind you that there is also a comic book?

>>376050431
Again, you've missed the point. You said that the game has been reviewed positively thanks to Platinum with the implication that it's been carried by gameplay which isn't the case if you actually read the reviews. The majority state it as being one of the weaker parts of the game.

the only thing I noticed is that he's a codemonkey with no soul
course he wouldn't care about story

>>376051021
Ohhh a comic book is literature now? How utterly fucking convenient.

>>376051059
>soul
lmao

>>376046662
This. I cant get off if there isnt any NTR

>>376046424
When I noticed that, no matter how hard people tried, videogame stories only amounted to superhero movie-tier plots at best.

>>376051139
Where did I say so? I'm stating that MGS 2 is piss easy to write.

>>376047334
Holy fuck, this.

Story is not needed, but can be a good element that adds to a game.

>>376046424
Anyone who's been exposed to classic porno movies will tell you having a fleshed out story with real actors & recording sets in multiple locations can make the difference between a quick forgettable fap and a fap you'll never forget.

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He's right that it is secondary to gameplay but it isn't irrelevant like story in a porn movie. Depending on the genre story can be second to gameplay in terms of importance. Even sports games are starting to have story with career modes. You can't even say that this wasn't true in his day either. Some of the best RPGs came out back then, games like Star Control came out in the west, even DOOM's story is told through level design and enemy design.

>>376050621
Im the anon defending nier and Id definitely say Esther is too light on content, but I've never understood fully the hatred for something like Gone Home.

Sure you can beat it in 3 minutes, sure the press sucked its dick for the diversity, but the environmental design was damn good. I do wish I could play a Thief Fan mission with that attention to detail. It was just a hyperfocus on environmental storytelling. We suck any other game's dick if it pulls this stuff on the side, theres nothing wrong with a focus.

>>376050983
What is trying to be the next Gone Home? Apart from some irrelevant indieshit?

>>376047334
No it's not, only gameplay can improve a game's quality.

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I think pic related will demonstrate my feelings on video game stories.

>>376051240
But it's not? You'd be missing an entire layer to it, glad to know you know nothing about what you're talking about.

>>376051468
That makes no sense. If the gameplay is already excellent, polish on every other detail will make it even better.

>>376051457
> Even sports games are starting to have story with career modes.
Yeah, because they have no fucking idea how to cover up the fact that they are selling team roster updates every year for $70.

>>376051463

>What is trying to be the next Gone Home?
Anything on this list posted here >>376051473

>>376051503
What exact layer would one miss, item selection? The game lacks choices.

>>376051560
> If the gameplay is already excellent
Then that's it.

>>376047323
I can't get off to older porn. I don't know, the film grain, the complete absence of the most basic kinography, weird angles, weird lights.
That's not merely habit. I've only started watching porn around 2009, before that I found most porn utter shit and preferred to go on imagination (which I still do half the time).
Porn is actually one of the few things that has been noticeably improved in the last ten years.

>>376051240
>somebody adapted a video game story to a graphic novel
>It's piss easy
That's a pretty fucking bold statement to make.

>>376051632
The layer in which its narrative map and ludic map are at odds with each other do you even ludos bro?

>>376051656
There is always room for improvement, are you literally retarded?

>>376046424
When Hilary won the 2016 election.

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>>376046424
>Look this guy up
>Bunch of shitty irrelevant games

Why should I care about him again?

>>376051750
But the other aspects are pointless.
Hell, there's games like MGSV that would improve if you completely removed the story.

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>>376051473
LMAO at Persona. How long does it take to complete the game?

>>376046662
this desu as long as there is something it works

>>376051473
i think i have other m derangement syndrome, because just seeing it makes me angry

>>376051570
Bayo, Other M, and Phantom Pain are trying to be Gone Home?

Nigga can you even hear yourself?

>>376051807
Because the story in MGSV is a piece of shit.

But imagine MGS1 without the story. Or are you going to argue "it's pointless?"

You're retarded or this is bait.

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>>376051757

>>376051930
No, MGS1 is terrible because it's clunky as shit.
Hell, one of it's bosses is only challenging due to camera limitations in the game.

>>376051745
nigger

>>376051807
>Hell, there's games like MGSV that would improve if you completely removed the story.
No, it would've improved if it had a good story. Remove the story and the player's motivation changes, especially when the main driving force of that game was the mystery of its story.

>>376050627
I'm a bookfag and this is 100% accurate

story is important for context and thats it. give the player a reason to progress.

>>376051928

yes, they are. Having the gall to put the story before the gameplay is a crime in my eyes, one they're all guilty of.

>>376048260
Any game is fucking shit if you rip out the reason to play it, you god damn moron.
Some games need a story to give you some sort of purpose, otherwise you're literally just sitting there looking at a screen pressing buttons to make a random thing happen

>>376052017
>the main driving force of that game was the mystery of its story
Then the game was a failure right from it's conception.

>tfw actually liked older pornos that were more like cinematic movies with fucking every other scene

I love watching vintage shit like that. It's much more of a turn on because you become a lot more invested and there's better build up.

>>376052064

Reason to play it? How about this for a reason:

>it's fun

WOW, simple, right? And I didn't even need a mandatory, unskippable 2 hour tutorial telling me about the anime character protagonist or his feelings.

games can tell great stories using their unique way of communicating with the player

>>376052064
A game can hold itself on only one reason - to win the game.

>>376052112
Well, no, because the concept is the thing that got people excited. The execution is a completely different matter.

>>376052193
They can communicate with the player, but they can't tell good stories because everyone writing stories for games is some MLP fanfiction-tier hack.

>>376052064
I good game only needs engaging gameplay

>>376052248
show me examples of good stories

>>376052193

A game should only need its gameplay to tell a good story. It shouldn't need hours of cutscenes.

>>376052214
Then this industry's been brainwashed.

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>>376047785
hi john!

>>376051989
nigger lover

>>376046424
When games like Spec Ops proved to be the antithesis to his argument. And games like Half-Life proved that games with stories that you can immerse yourself into are several times more enjoyable than gibfests like Doom and Quake. Though when he said that, games were only simple pieces of entertainment (with the exception of elevated works like Planescape that are definitely not for everyone). His analogy is dumb, but although it's not a necessity to include a well written story along your game, doing so can make your game many times better, and avoiding that is limiting yourself (and your game) on the basis of what some caffeine addict said in 2003.

>>376052315
yes, but some scenes cannot be shown by other means than cutscenes
they can be there but they shouldn't take the top spot as a story-telling mechanism

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>>376046738
this kinda makes me irks me

like is a person suppose to know every fucking thing?

why would a guy like carmac ever format his computer and lose hours of autism work?

Why not both types.

>>376046424

Since forever, if you want a story read a book or play a pen and paper RPG.

>>376052501

>yes, but some scenes cannot be shown by other means than cutscenes
Then I'm having a hard time justifying their presence in the game to begin with.

>>376052296
Considering I pirated (and deleted) Mass Effect Andromeda today, i'll say The Last Question, short and effective sci-fi story.
Although Asimov is still vastly overrated.

>>376052509
there is expertise involved in destroying data so that it can't be recovered by a determined expert, so you are correct

>>376052667
No

>>376052460
Videogames are a shit storytelling medium.
Stories should be an excuse for level design, nothing more.

>>376052047
You're not the ACfag. Get the fuck out and stay out. Pretending to be retarded is still retardation.

>>376052509
>>376052920
the silly thing, imo, is searching for this information where information about your searches can be easily subpoenaed

>>376053043

>Acfag

Who?

>>376052185
WOW it's almost like that wasn't part of the point, and you're arguing for the sake of arguing!
Every game he listed WAS fun gameplay-wise.
The gameplay can be fun, but without level design, characters, a purpose, setting, an end goal, etc, you are going to get real fuckin bored, real fuckin fast.
But you're a raging contrarian so you'll disagree.

why are these threads becoming a thing? just how underaged is /v/ to where this point needs to explored further than it has?

>>376053007
>Movies are a shit storytelling medium. Stories should be an excuse for pretty visuals, nothing more.
>Literature is a shit storytelling medium. Stories should be an excuse for clever wordplay, nothing more.
Literally trying to artificially separate style from substance, you dumb nigger. When will you uneducated fucks actually learn about what is storytelling and try to appreciate something beyond your own childish retardation?

>>376053007
Cool, but that doesn't mean stories should be ignored in a game if that would lower the quality of the end product. Final Fantasy probably wouldn't exist if that were the case. The story is the hook, and the gameplay is there to reel you in. That's all there is to making a good video game.

>>376053316
There's nothing to appreciate in storytelling in videogames.

>>376053369
Why would lack of story lower the quality of a game?
If the gameplay can't stand on it's own, then it's a failure.

>>376053260

>Every game he listed WAS fun gameplay-wise.
Then why do the fans get up in arms when someone recommends skipping the story, or removing the cutscenes altogether? MGS fans, for example, say that the gameplay is putrid garbage when there's no story telling you where to go.

Really makes you ponder.

>>376053254
>Posting his pics with the hashes intact
>Using his arguments word to word, every retarded sentence
>Who?
Don't even try to pull this one

>>376053260
>characters
Completely pointless.

>>376053316

>Movies are a shit storytelling medium. Stories should be an excuse for pretty visuals, nothing more.
But that's kinda true. Citizen Kane wasn't that well known for its story. It was the beautiful and masterful use of choreography, actors, pacing, settings, camerawork, and cinematography that made it a classic. The story was a tiny cog in that machine.

>>376048525
I got so sad when this girl on my team in FFT Advance died when we were fighting in the zone without judges. She had been in my guild since the very beginning. ):

>>376053479

What are you talking about? Are you okay man?

>>376053449
I can say the same about movies and literature. Your argument rings hollow. You do not understand or appreciate storytelling. You only consider stories in movies or books great because academia and your school teacher told you so, you fucking dumbass hypocrite.

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>>376053627
>tfw Citizen Kane of video games

>>376046424
>taking the words of someone who is still butthurt about strafejumping in Quake seriously

He's a great programmer but that's about it. He is not a god of some sort whose every word is law. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's a high functioning autist of some sort. His behavior gave off some serious signs, if you read Masters of Doom, you'd know.

>>376053741
>You only consider stories in movies or books great because academia and your school teacher told you so, you fucking dumbass hypocrite.
No, not really, the vast majority of stories in movies are trash, and books stopped being decent a long time ago.

Besides, I would never waste my time studying this kind of thing anywhere, and if you wanted to dedicate yourself to literature and movies, you don't need that.
In the sense, they are similar to videogames.

>>376053826
No, what he has is some kind of psychopathy, and not the ''hurr i'm a serial killer'' kind of thing, but just in the sense that he doesn't care about anything but himself.

>>376051468
>>376051656
>>376051807
>>376052112
>>376052324

Shut up, faggot.

>>376053627
>le citizen kane was not known for the story
If you don't understand how everything you named works to ultimately enhance the story, that is the point of the whole movie, you appreciate cinema on the level of a Marvel fan. I'm dead serious.

>>376052296
Syberia's story is pretty good. Like shit is over the top when you first start out, but as you get more used to the larger-than-life (but still relatively believable) weirdness, it just becomes intriguing. I think The Longest Journey is a neat story too. I liked Breakdown's story.

>>376053638
That happened to me when raising Chao in SA 2. My brawny nigga just disappeared all of a sudden.

>>376053826
>tfw Chinatown

>>376053995
Nice argument.

>>376053449
Because unless your game is footy or some other sport the story would make it more pleasant (especially if it's well written)? Half-Life featured pretty minimalistic writing and that kicked it years ahead of any shooter at the time. And Half-Life had pretty fucking baller gameplay for the time (mainly because it was riding the quake craze). Times are changing, and it's plainly obvious that some game genres are much better complimented by a story. For example you have RPGs who basically can't function without it, Witcher 3, SMT, Nier Automata, select FF titles. Sure, it's not as important in a shooter (though Spec Ops would argue against that) but shooters aren't the entirety of video games are they, and I'm pretty sure Carmack was basing that statement off of the fact that FPS were the up and coming genre in a medium where stale platformers and boring text based graphic adventures, or point and clicks were the most common species.

>>376053969
And a man like that is not really fit to pass judgment such things. Storytelling is not lines of code, although certain literary conventions could be reduced to a set of rules that lay down the groundwork of competent storytelling.

Maybe when decent writers bother working in this industry, but as long as turds like MGS2 or TLOU are praised, no one will bother.

>>376054017
he is correct tho
citizen kane was notable for its cinematography
how that "enhances the story" is beside the point

>>376053007
>Games are a shit storytelling medium
>When Pathologic and The Void exist
Sure is pleb 'round here

>>376053885
>the vast majority of stories in movies is trash, and books stopped being decent a long time ago
Anyone that follows movies or books knows you're full of shit son, I don't get what kind of rush you get from saying stupid shit on the internet but playing elitist only works if you know more than the people you're debating with, and no, I'm not that anon but your statements can be so easily dismissed it's laughable

>>376054346
I'm sure Guardians of the Galaxy and Harry Potter 80 are really good, Anon.

>>376054209
Nice posts you contrarian little bitch.

>>376047207
What is the story in Super Mario Brothers? Bowser kidnapped Toadstool and you as Mario have to save her and the Mushroom Kingdom.

That is a story, it is expected that you have a motivation and a reason to why you are doing something, but it doesn't need to rear its head constantly in the game. The only time you get a bit more story is when you enter the wrong castle and that the princess is in another one.

The story is there, it just isn't the focal point.

Take the arcade game Robotron 2084. The story is that the Robotrons have deemed humans as unnecessary thus you play as one of the last uncorrupted ones that not only battles them, but tries to save the last human family. When you insert your quarter you don't get greeted with any story at all. Though it is still a compelling classic game.

Games should focus on their strong points. Their mechanics and how the mechanics interact with everything else like level design, enemy placement, and so on.

>>376054346
Yes, me and all of my very important friends disagree with this. *tips pipe*

>>376054424
Ah yes, contrarian, the buzzwords used by newfag redditors when they have zero arguments to defend something they only like by peer pressure.

>>376054413
>he thinks that mainstream blockbusters are the gross of films being released
wew lad.
Watch more films.
2014 was one of the best years in film ever and you're here saying that they're all garbage because muh marvel? lmao

>>376054017

>le citizen kane was not known for the story
If you don't understand how everything you named works to ultimately enhance the story
The point is that the story was ultimately inconsequential to the whole product. It could be exchanged for anything else, but the movie as a whole wouldn't suffer without it. It could be about a kid dropping his ice cream on the curb, and the movie would still have the same impact.

Take movies like Star Wars for example, the original trilogy. Is the story anything to write home about?No, it's just a typical space adventure film. but what made it work was the practicality of the sets, the strength of the actors, their chemistry together, the pacing, and the scene choreography. I think RLM says it best when they say this:

>"all the CGI waterfalls and fancy backdrops and crappy romances can't come close to genuine human interactions and smaller, heartfelt moments."

>>376054526
>wew lad
>lmao
Nice way to signal that nobody should take you seriously.
Now do tell, which 2014 movie did you like?
Transformers 4?

>>376046424
Back in 199X before games were capable of great storytelling

>[Stealing Intellectual Property Intensifies]

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>/v/ trying to discuss storytelling
Fucking laughable.
Then again, this place used to praise some fucking gook who built an entire franchise out of ripping off cheap, action blockbusters from the 80's.

>>376054295
Welles's French contemporaries were far more agressive, abrasive and experimental than he ever was. Hell, 20 years before him Germans did everything he did. Citizen Kane is known and famous because everything in the movie works for the story and that's the point, but surely such a fine point escapes your pleb mind.
>>376054413
>Every movie is a mainstream Hollywood flick: the post
You are ignorant as fuck, kiddo

>>376051863
Like fucking 80 or some shit. Should have shaved 30 hours off the game honestly. The start of Persona 4 is a huge slog that is like 3~4 hours of the player being railroaded with very little to no interaction with the game outside of maybe walking to point A to point B or just making text boxes move.

>>376054508
>Ah yes
>buzzwords newfag redditors

Lmfaoing at your life.

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ITT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAh9oLs67Cw

>>376047082
No game can come close to the storytelling in great literature, but some definitely have better storytelling than bottom-tier literature. In the same way, a choose-your-adventure book has better gameplay than the absolute worst games ever made.

>>376054826
Don't you dare compare that wonderful thing to this shit thread.

>>376054864
Which makes me wonder why would books bother with ''gameplay'' the same way I wonder why games bother with story.

>>376054826
This is actually a very well done video, both insulting and fun at the same time. Lasagna Cat people definitely know what they are doing.

>>376054585
I liked Grand Budapest Hotel, Birdman, Whiplash, The Imitation Game, Frank, Alive Inside, The Raid 2, Trascendence, It Follows, Boxtrolls, Nightcrawler, Gone Girl, Inherent Vice, John Wick, Interstellar, American Sniper and Seventh Son.
Oh yes, and Transformers too.
>hurr durr new films are shit because I say so

>>376055074
>Interestellar
>Transformers
>It Follows
>Birdman
Preordered your GOTG2 ticket?

>>376046424

Why is it bad for certain genres (RPG and Adventure) to have an emphasis on story and other genres (TBS, RTS, Platform, Dungeon Crawler RPGs, etc.) to not have an emphasis on story?

>>376055186
>acting like this because he got exposed as an ignorant dunce that thinks that mainstream blockbusters = total number of films released in a year.
Why are fa/tv/irgins such tryhard scum every time?

>>376055056
Story is not exclusive to literature, you double nigger. Read some scientific works once in your goddamn life, learn about how much humanity always depended on various manners of stories and storytelling. Then, kindly, fuck off.
>>376055074
A genuinely good list, even if composed entirely of entry-level stuff. Good to know someone at least tries in this dump.
>>376055186
Please, tell me about your favorite movies. Surely, you enjoy only the finest art-house cinema there is.
I fucking hate people like you. You are nothing but pretend games with no understanding of anything you "discuss".

>>376055348
Because muh gameplay

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In a video game, less story always makes a better story. For example, Super Metroid has a better story than every single final fantasy, COMBINED.

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>>376055356
You are the one who is unironically praising Interestellar, the movie that dumbed down the black hole CGI because Nolan thought people would be ''confused''.

>>376055348

there are examples of both opposites being true.

stop making such broad generalizations.

>>376055436
That's really nice, but I still don't see the point of storytelling in videogames.

>>376055554
Well that settles it, despite being thematically and stylistically sound, it's actually a terrible movie, because of some unnecessary exposition, glad to know you have such high standards in storytelling, please forgive plebs like us.

>>376048260
> metal gear
> uncharted
> tlou
> unfun without story

All of those have modes which are without story and are fun as anything

>>376055756

Are you kidding? Without story, they're all just Call of Duty clones where you play as gruff white guys shooting guns at generic grunts.

>>376055721
What themes?
Nolan must have spent a night searching in wikipedia about astronomy and just started throwing shit like that and write a mediocre plot around it.
The idea of someone falling into a tesseract is just nonsensical.
Hell, he didn't even read further enough to know that travelling through wormholes is literally impossible.

>>376055657
To entertain. Immerse. Take advantage of the unique strengths it can offer as a medium, where your actions have consequences that sometimes are accounted for in great detail and allow you to set out and explore the world that game is set in either from your own perspective or from the perspective of the character you are playing as? I dunno, stupid shit, right?

>>376055837
0/10

>>376055756
No they are not, and that's what they fail in, you take away the story and there's just nothing.

>>376055980
In all those games, including all the MGS except 5, i have played multiple times, and i played the U4 survival wave mode a lot never once connecting online (because fuck paying for plus). They are all fun.

>>376055657
That's because you are uneducated as fuck. Try mending faults in your own thinking before blaming the world for your ignorance.
>>376055980
>trying to Big Boss European Extreme
>have to literally skip the story to be on time
>suddenly not fun
Sorry I was having pretend entertainment all this time, wise anon.

>>376055436
newsflash redditfag, some people actually like things that require thought
and inb4 hurr durr >thinking
Sure not everyone who watches art house films understands them, but they can still enjoy them. I go to art museums are look at paintings that I dont "understand" but are still beautiful.
Get some fucking taste kid

>>376055895
But the strength of videogames is gameplay.

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>>376052248
>everyone
let's not be too hasty

>>376056373
You are a retard.

>>376056373
Gameplay, which allows videogames to become an interactive medium, a medium you take direct part in, not stand and observe. If you cannot grasp how can that be advantageous for the sake of storytelling or creating a deeper, more immersive experience, then I'll be forced to conclude that you are lacking the mental capacity for abstract thinking and are therefore not human.

>>376056656
Not him, it can certainly be advantegous, but no one knows how because no writer worth his while bothers with this dead industry.

>>376051561
are you implying they need to cover it up? they may as well not bother with that shit in the games. didn't even one of the recent CoDs trim or remove story mode? shit like that pro people buy annually to have the newest version with slightly better graphics sometimes.

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>>376055934
>>376056150
>>376056174
>>376056552

>>376056754
> didn't even one of the recent CoDs trim or remove story mode?
Black Ops 3, but only on the PS360 versions.

>>376056783
True, it should be the happy story of a black disabled trigendered transexual.

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Games have the potential to have genuinely good stories like Torment or Fallout. The problem with stories in games is when they become to linear to focus on the story or take away control from the player: TLOU.

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>>376056894

OR, let's not focus on the character or the story, and just make a fun game.

Remember Metroid? before Nintendo decided that she needed to have a tragic backstory about how she wanted to be a mother and the baby metroid represented her having an abortion?

>>376056783
> nathan drake
> gruff
> tragic backstory

His backstory is barely delved into until 4 and even then its just he thought his brother was dead.

Not even going to rise to the white criticism.

>>376056314
So, what are your favorite movies, plebmeister? Did you watch German Expressionist movies? French Impressionism? Russian Montage Cinema? Early silent documentaries? European war documentaries and feature films? French New Wave? Silent comedies besides Chaplin? Post-war German and Polish cinema? Czechoslovakian New Wave? Italian New Wave? Italian Neo-Realism? Soviet Protest Cinema? Anything Asian beyond Kurosawa and maybe one modern director? Like Samurai movies? Yakuza drama? Or Chinese Communist drama? Or South Korean crime flicks? Anything besides American fucking cinema from maybe 60s, but mostly 80s and 90s?
Don't try to "kid" me, fucker. Unlike you, I actually know shit about shit. Your "thoughts" are deep as a puddle, otherwise, you wouldn't flaunt your ignorance.

>>376056783
The fact they managed to render that joel out of the PS3 is amazing. That game alone made the gen jump unnoticeable.

He's not. Games like Yakuza or MGS would much worse with bad stories.

>>376056783
Never played any of those, and you talk like a redditor.

>>376057095
film dropout knows his wikipedia film categories

>>376057095
>Tfw actually seen a lot of the things listed and still have no taste in cinema and consume it solely for entertainment

"Sympathy for Lady Vengeance" was pretty good though. So was "Heart of a Dog".

>>376053105
Idk the circumstances (does anyone) but it could be he was in a rush and needed to do it quickly. When you're in that frantic of a state, you typically don't think straight and make dumb mistakes.

>>376057095
Jingi Naki Tatakai is still the greatest Japanese movie. The sequels are alright.

>>376046424
He's not wrong, but I can't say he's right either.
Story serves as a way to contextualize gameplay, the problems arise when story takes precedence over gameplay, so yeah, story isn't that important but at the same time it's not a bad thing to have unless all you like is abstract puzzle games which don't need a story at all to work.

Stories are great, but in this medium you have to prioritise the interactive/gameplay part.

Games like TLOU look beautiful and I found the story compelling at least, but part of me wonders why it just wasn't shot as a film.

>>376056926
There is nothing wrong with linear stories. Every book and movie is linear. I prefer story in TLOU where you can clearly see characters interactions, emotions, things that happen (which all takes more effort to present) over reading some letters in Torment diaries.
>take awat control from player
In every game when you read or watch story, control is taken from you, including Torment and Fallout.

>>376046662
Without story or at the very least engaging interpersonal interactions then what is there to even get off on?

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>>376046424
This may have been true back in the 80's when games were only seen as what amounts to toys, but they have evolved since then

Kind of like how playing dress-up and screaming at each other used to be little kid stuff, but later that became stage Opera

>>376057707
Gotta sell those PS m8.

>>376057792
>every book and movie is linear
no

>>376046796
>>376046947
>>376047208
>>376047323
>>376047334
>>376047951


all these butt hurt children crying because they want weebshit fantasies to fill the void of emotion in their pathetic lives.

story is for children under 10. when you hit 13 gameplay is all that will ever matter because you finally figured out how to hit the buttons correctly.

>>376057401
ebin, my friend. Still no mention of your favorite movies.
>>376057468
Try Muratova if you're in the mood for other cool Soviet shit, her movies give Lynch a good run for his money. Also, The Unfinished Piece for the Mechanical Piano, that one is a true tear-jerker.
>>376057616
I'd go with The Sword of Doom or Ran, even if it's a bit cliche. Kurosawa knew his shit. Your choice is both unexpected and commendable tho.

>>376046662
Thats why i like hentai

There are games with great stories. That said, those games don't forget that they're a game first and a story second.

The real issue is that failed would-be artists, directors and writers realized that slapping together a video game was way easier than trying to succeed in the cut-throat world of Hollywood and publishing, so they flooded the market with trash after trash.

Then the even bigger problem came about because some small but vocal portion of video game players insisted that video games were "art," even though they had no need to as video games already are art, because you can't actually define art all that well in the first place. So they propped up trash like Gone Home as proof of video games status as art, even though as a story Gone Home is a total failure in every way, to the point that the writer would be laughed out of any literature circle.

Gamers should stop trying to claim video games as mediums anything like films or books and embrace them for what they are: interactive mediums. You can only watch a movie or read a book, after all, but with a video game you can actively interact with the world in a way you could never achieve with anything else.

>>376058075
you perpetuate a memeplex that causes you to attempt to compete intrasexually through your association to others art, and this manifests in you copying and painting labels associated by others with that art
not only was i not having the discussion with you, i don't have "favorite" anythings
continue being a meme tho

>>376057182
>>376057042

The problem is that they still shoved in way too much story for not enough gameplay.

>TLOU
>10 hours to beat
>3 hours of cutscenes, 20 hours of dialogue

>MGS
supposedly 50 hours of playtime
>6 hours of cutscenes, 90 hours of dialogue

>Uncharted
>no gameplay period

>>376058075
That Yakuza shit is my jam you know what I'm saying. Lately though they just haven't been churning out good things as much, I just find myself going through Taiga dramas lately because however cheesy they are I'm just a sucker for history.
Did you watch that new Kitano movie? I haven't seen or heard anything about it yet, is it any good?

>>376057165
Yakuza games already have absolute garbage stories

MGS is just so convoluted and wacky sometimes, it could be about fucking anything and it would still be entertaining if Kojima's approach to storytelling and characterization was the same

>>376046424
Except it's not true.
The statement only really gives an insight to the mentality video game developers had in the 90s when it comes to story, nothing else.
Did they make better games in the 90s by applying this mentality? Fuck no.

>>376058687
>Did they make better games in the 90s by applying this mentality? Fuck no.
Actually yes, they did.
No handholding or hours of cutscenes.

>>376058518
His 2015 comedy is fucking gold, his own performance especially, and I'm really, REALLY waiting for the new Outrage movie. Also, if you haven't seen those yet, try Nikkatsu noir movies, they should be right up your alley. Brutal and acidic as fuck. Some were remastered by Criterion and properly ripped even.

>>376058813
>I'm only playing mainstream AAA shit.
>Waaah, games are not good anymore!
Ignorance

>>376058813
Handholding has fuckall to do with story.
Hours of cutscenes could be bad, but the answer to this isn't the complete removal and/or marginalization of story, that won't make games better. Reducing the amount or better distribution of cutscenes is the answer.

>>376058983
Cheers man, I'll go watch one of those right away actually, I've been craving my fix for ages now. All the best!

>>376059079
>>I'm only playing mainstream AAA shit.
I don't actually, doesn't change the fact that nowadays 90% of games have heavy handholding and hours and hours of cutscenes that simply didn't exist until well late in the 90's.
>>376059178
>Handholding has fuckall to do with story.
Who said that?

>>376059254
You too! Have a good time.

>>376059079
>>376059178

You'll find the occasional good indie game once in a while, but even that niche has been invaded by the calarts hipsters who think games are "problematic" and "reinforce rape culture" so they won't be making any good games any time soon. The industry has this vibe of wanting to be hollywood. That's gotta change.

>>376059335
>Who said that?

I did, what the fuck is the point of this question?

>>376059370
It will heal with time, typically.
>Literature has to endure against Church in its Inquisition prime
>Music has to survive and evolve while being a toy for absolutely retrarded inbred kings and aristocrats
>Movies live through both Commies and moronic morally confused American senators
SJWs and Hollywood copycats are really small fry.

>>376058438
>Trying to psychoanalyze strangers on the net
I don't think I'm the meme in this situation, bud

>>376059832

Considering that certain people were able to be big enough victims to speak to the UN of all places is what scares me. Imagine if they weren't incompetent idiots who fumbled that one chance they had.

game stories compliment escapism/immersion well so long as they aren't trying too hard to push views on you or be "innovative" (people who end up in the game industry usually suck dicks at this)
it's perfectly okay for them to be loaded with cliches or even be kind of shallow and mediocre so long as they suit the gameplay well and didn't take precedence over it, and they'll usually be positive additions even if they are lacking in the literature department

>>376060057
Good for us that we live in one of the brighter timelines. Also thankfully, UN has no power over the world at large, and no structure does anymore. We'll be in the new golden age of gaming in 5-7 tops, while dumbasses find a new topical hobby.

>>376060082
Pretty much this, I actually like the Uncharted stories; even though they're super-clichéd, they add to the whole feeling of playing an action movie

>>376059974
you are indeed the meme, my vacuously performative dude

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ITT:

>>376046424
Story is the brain while gameplay is the rest of the body: they work in conjunction with each other, no particular part is any more important than the other.

>>376060474
You are the most tryhard little shit in this thread, that anon was kind enough of not blowing you the fuck out but you really can't be helped.
Also anyone can see through your
>tfw to smart too have favorites
Shit, you just don't want to get exposed as the pseudo intellectual fraud that you are.

>>376059832
Mainstream music is all shitty hip-hop and Canadian pop rock. It didn't evolve into anything.

>Muh underground
It's still underground

>>376060813
more peacocking from a pseud
could probably get you to starve to death with a good chatbot

>>376060754
mspaint_comic.png
Sure showed us all the light of truth, gaylord

>>376060927
>pseud
A tryhard fa/tv/irgin, go figure, what are the odds.

>>376052296
fimfiction.net

>>376061026
>here is my list of labels for music composed in philadelphia between 1874 aand 1889
go back to your board or tell me about your anxiety disorder

>>376046424
after I got into high school and got a girlfriend. Started playing games when I could and realized I just couldn't into big stories or care anymore, just wanted to goof off. found myself playing more THUG than Final Fantasy.
just no more patience or tolerance for forced stories and cutscenes, if you have an interesting setting, i'll seek it out myself. just let me fight or puzzle solve or whatever the heck, quit making me sit through your boring story that wasn't good enough to be a book. btw books are great, you can read at your own pace, as much or as little as you want, as quickly as you want.

>>376061232
>can't mention a single fucking movie and will go to these lengths to prevent himself from doing so
Gotta love intellectual dishonesty

>>376060775
The most succesful lifeform on Earth is, objectively, the flu virus.

>>376061398
i have never watched a movie
now tell me about your anxiety disorder or go back to /tv/

>>376057928
It's unsurprising you took that long to figure out how to hit buttons.

>>376061473
>I was just pretending to be an elitist dipshit u mad u mad u mad u mad?
No, not at all, you just exposed your intentions.

>fun game
anyone can enjoy it
>story experience
maybe a dozen people can enjoy it

Same thing with Super Smash Bros Melee vs Brawl.
nobody disliked Melee, everyone liked it, some people just enjoyed it more.
Brawl came along and fucked it up for the people who were going to play it for a thousand hours, to please the people who would play it for 20.
make your game fucking fun and enjoy your dedicated fan base, which again, did not detract ANYBODY else from playing or enjoying it.

>>376060882
>shitty hip-hop
Even Downward Spiral, last year, was an interesting fun record that sold tons. Blonde and Imperial were also okay. Also last year Bowie did an amazing pre-death record, while Cohen finished with a lesser, but still good album, his best in decades. Cave made a better record than his last one, and the last one was already breddy good. Swans, who are not even remotely underground anymore, made a record I don't even remotely understand, but it's pleasant to listen to. Was a good year for metal too, especially the more extreme genres. A band named King Gizzard and something Lizard came with one of the best garage rock records ever, on par with White Stripes and even MC5. Jeff Rosenstock will be the new Costello in a few years, but even now he's good.
If you follow the medium, you'll always find a ton of shit to enjoy, because humans are constantly producing different art. Don't be ignorant.

>>376061703
you are going through a lot of steps to avoid telling me about the disorder that has left you engaging in this peacocking behavior on an anonymous message board, where there is no upside, but all of the downside of being ridiculed for being a sped

>>376061908
I could say the same to you, you literally said
>tfw to smart too have favorites
What a sad little creature.

>>376051473
What makes this shit worse is if it's GOOD because then you don't want to replay it. I want to replay DMC and Chaos Legion, they don't have too much bullshit to sit through.

>>376062076
>tfw when too smart to attempt to well-order the unquantifiable

>>376062380
>tfw can't even say a single movie he enjoyed among the thousands he's seen

>>376046424
>Everyone consumes media the same way
>Every gamer has the same tastes

Why are game developers so autistic?

>>376062495
my favorite movie is pixels by the artist adam sandler
now tell me about your anxiety problems
i've been on 4chan a long time and i have a lot of experience with people suffering from anxiety problems

>>376062654
>being this much of an intellectually dishonest person out of fear of getting his taste nitpicked like he does to others

>>376062910
>tfw when someone won't even believe you enjoy adam sandler's magnum opus more than any other film made by sony pictures, the foremost film studio
and all i wanted to do was catalog the nature of your mental illness

>>376063049
Being THIS intellectually dishonest

Kinda depends on the genre. If you're playing an RPG, story is pretty important. Regardless, gameplay should always be #1. If you aren't having fun, why play the game?

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>>376063117
here i am with my sons mario and luigi enjoying the fine merchandise associated with my family film
now about the nature of your anxiety disorder
do you can any benzos to manage the symptoms

>>376049305

wow people like this game?

the dialogue in those cutscenes is terrible and the voices don't even fit the look of the characters

>>376063348
>acts elitist until exposed
>hurr I like pixels movies are fun amirite

>>376064140
i am just putting you down for general anxiety disorder
think critically about the memes you perpetuate in the future

>>376049012
Haha epic opinion friendo!

>>376064457
> I won't reply seriously about my taste in movies that I've been flaunting disgustingly throughout this entire thread because of shit I made up.