Why is Morrowind the only RPG where there are people who actually

>>375886837
People don't get annoyed because you miss, they get annoyed because you miss frequently at the start of the game, which is compounded by the lack of a miss animation.

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We've been over this literally thousands of times. Morrowind has flaws but if you miss an attack its usually your fault. Anyone who complains about it is an uneducated shiiter.

I played Morrowind first and it's entirely because it's an action RPG that plays with a regular RPG's stats. Nostalgia goggles doesn't fix how stupid of an idea that was, even though the sidequests and lore were fantastic.

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>>375886969
>they get annoyed because you miss frequently at the start of the game

>>375887034
Didn't stop Diablo from being a good game.

>>375886969
They get annoyed because they don't realize it's an rpg and doesn't support specializing in every skill at the same time.

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>>375886837
it's pretty simple. morrowind is garbage all around. it's not about missing in combat when you clearly hit something but the opaque masking of RNG hides this fact from you. It's just that, all around, the game is a fart.

>>375887058
90% of people won't know to do that when they first play.

>>375887058
You missed 1/4 hits, or 25%. This is a lot to take in for people who've never played a real RPG. Don't get me wrong, I love Morrowind and have played it many, many times. But you have to see how newfags and underage are so pampered by current games that the possibility of failure is all but alien to them.

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It's literally just shitposting and/or willful ignorance at this point.

They basically took their 2.5d combat system and bumped it up half a dimension. It has it's shortcomings like many areas of the game but if you have any experience with older(read;real) RPGs you would quickly understand how the system worked. I was 12 when my dad picked this up and when it was my turn he said to me "It's pretty much like Daggerfall." I never had an issue with the combat.

>>375887492
I didn't either until I played Oblivion.

>>375886837
>animation clearly shows me hitting enemy
>YOU MISSED LOL
nice game nerds

>>375887228
>Clearly hit something
Did you try magic, it never misses.

It boils down to lack of imagination and that these faggots never played DnD or even a DnD ruleset spinoff videogame. They think it is THEM playing the game, not their CHARACTER.

>>375886837
Because its objectively a shit combat system and yes, Souls/MH/Dragons dogma or even M&B is literally better

Not that I would hold it against a game that old, its but outdated and aged like absolute shit.

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>>375887228
>there will never be a season
>there will never be another clerks movie
>there will never be another movie as good as "Waiting" was

It hurts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUq46apWsM4

>>375887818
It's not even just DnD, there are numerous RPG video games out there that do this.

>>375887958
>>375887818
>peoples tastes change now that technology lets us have better combat systems
NO!?

REALLY!?

Fuck off.

>>375887892
>oh no this RPG doesn't have the same kind of combat as an action game with some RPG elements, it's shit!

>>375888019
>games where I can't miss are better because I don't know how to manage otherwise
gg

>>375888032
Except the features of an ARPG and RPG are not exclusive from each other moron. An ARPG can be as deep or as shallow as its creator wants, just like any game.

Dont bother replying I wont read it if you're so clinically retarded you cant figure this out without me explaining it to you.

>>375888102
Im sorry you never grew up

>>375886837
Skyrimtards had to come up with a meme to excuse their bad taste.

>>375888120
An ARPG and an action game with a few RPG elements are not the same thing.

>>375886837
>who actually think it's a bad game because you can miss?
Because it makes the combat boring?

Visual feedback is more satisfying than numbers. Go wank to a erotic novel and tell me its better than porn,

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>>375887928
>waiting
>mfw this part
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3TRToHrNWc

>>375888202
>I never learned how to deal with my shortcomings and adapt to the fact that not everything will be given to me on a silver platter but it's you who never grew up

>>375887892
I liked Dragon's Dogma but its combat was shallow and mindless button masher crap without the varied movesets and combos of its contemporaries. I find Morrowind's system of having accuracy and evasion rate scale based on fatigue percentages more involved and compelling.

>>375888298
>Go wank to a erotic novel and tell me its better than porn
Sometimes it is, considering how bland and contrived porn is.

>>375888348
Your line of argument is hilariously bad since someone being good at a game like DD/MH/Souls is infinitely more impressive than anyone who plays Morrowind well.

But you're obviously shitposting so
/thread
/sage

>>375888102
>1 int
>Why is my character retarded? I know I'm not retarded, game must be shit
It's like fallout threads, these faggots don't want to play an RPG, they want an ARPG. A different genre.

>>375888410
And morrowinds is shallow, 'abuse this stat to win' crap

Thats the point

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Morrowind would have been infinitely better as an isometric RPG.

>>375888443
>someone being good at a game like DD/MH/Souls is infinitely more impressive than anyone who plays Morrowind well
Jesus Christ, you're that the miss system is bad because being good at an action game is cooler than being good at an RPG and you say MY line of argument is bad?

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>>375888564
>Isometric

No.

>>375888556
Do you just not like RPGs?

>>375888564
Yup, this

Fact is if someone is playing in first person they expect to see their actions led to reactions. If they pick up a cup they want to see the character grab it, not a dice roll and a failure.

If Morrowind was isometric people wouldnt expect the same level of immediate feedback.

>>375888120
>Playing a super deep game
>want it to be more shallow, to fit my lack of imagination

Sounds like you have mental retardation, Anon. I don't think you could even explain it if you tried.

>>375888664
I love RPGs, ARPGs and games that do both well. Im sorry you feel like you have to pick a side to save face and cant come to grips with how Morrowinds combat system is utter shit.

>>375888673
Would it have been better or just easier for casuals to understand?

Yup.
Fucking children have never played a game where you can miss.
THAT USED TO BE EVERY RPG BEFORE 2006.

>>375888714
Read it again and realize you are agreeing with me

Plus you're a moron

>>375888742
But you just said Morrowind is shallow because you can abuse stats to win. Isn't the whole point of RPGs to use your stats to win? And can't you grind in most RPGs to increase those stats and "abuse" them?

>>375886837
It's retards who started playing games on the xbox 360 so they don't understand that stats actually matter and dont understand what having no stamina means.

>>375888621
>Balmora is bigger than the capital of Skyrim

Really makes you think

>>375888443
>Morrowind is essentially the first 3D DnD
Ever play Balder's gate Anon, Neverwinter nights? Does that sort of game interest you? If no, then Morrowind isn't for you.

>>375888759
It has nothing to do with someone being good or casual

Its a matter of perspective that influences the expectation of the player

>>375888832
That's what confuses me though. Why is it that only Morrowind gets all the shit for this?

>>375888927
>It has nothing to do with someone being good or casual
Causal is a measure of experience, not skill.
So let me rephrase
Would it have been better or just easier to understand for people who have little experience?

>>375888854
Now you're just being purposely fucking obtuse and you know it. Morrowinds combat is just as shallow and abuseable in its stat system as DD is in its combat system. There is no depth in either so dont pretend either is better on that regard.

I can already tell you will miss the point so just do a witty reply and then kill yourself.

>>375888443
Not really considering every other 12 year old has done a zero damage run of dark souls.
Game is fucking easy

>>375888759
Both.

The perspective makes the game feel awful. Seeing your character swing an attack that doesn't connect when the models are adjacent without any sort of dodge animation just looks like garbage and took me out of the experience a lot.

If the perspective was more removed from the action, it would have been easier for me to fill the blanks.

Plus, it'd make the world a bit easier to navigate.

>>375888932
Because as others have explained, its all about the perspective. A hit looks just like a miss. This is fine in isometrics, because your zoomed way out and for all you can tell it could've gone either way so it doesn't annoy you.
In Morrowind its right in your face that visually your hitting the damn thing but the game says you aren't. It's bound to rub people the wrong way.

>>375889012
>purposely fucking obtuse
>he's being acute and concise

I guess int can be a dump stat.

>>375889215
Hit and miss animations are the same in Skyrim too...

>>375889012
I wasn't talking about Dragon's Dogma, I was talking about non-ARPGs.

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>>375886837
>Why is Morrowind the only RPG where there are people who actually think it's a bad game because you can miss?
You people are retarded

It has nothing to do with the fact the player can miss

It has EVERYTHING to do with how the miss is represented

If you swing at an enemy, and the game has a miss chance on every attack, and in this swing you miss, and the AI in turn triggers a dodge that physically makes sense, then the player would be fine with it.

What players are NOT fine with is when you swing, and it looks like it hits, but then its says 'missed'

Its the EXACT same as Xcom. People dont care if they shoot and miss, they care when they are standing point blank and the gun is literally in the AIs face and the bullet flies through the enemy, and misses. It has nothing to do with the fact you can miss, its the fact that what you saw on your screen and what happened are two entirely different things.

Its the exact same game. 100% no difference, EXCEPT the visual representation of missing is properly shown. .gif related, if in Morrowind you swung at an enemy with a 50% chance to miss, and the game calculated you missed, and the AI jumped to avoid your attack similar to this gif then people wouldnt mind.

What does happen in Morrowind is more like the jaggi standing still, the blade hitting, then getting a giant "MISS" appear

>>375889369
>the entire game sucks because the swing animation plays when i miss

yea man sure, thats a real opinion

>>375887261
>pampered by current games that the possibility of failure is all but alien to them.
>Hit enemy with object
>Miss anyway
>Pampered

>>375889130
No, they haven't. You shitposting retard.

>>375889284
Chances are you know when to expect to hit and/or miss in that game, so it doesn't bother you. If you were playing the game and one of your melee swings just went through the enemy when it was supposed to hit, it'd be shit as well.

The animations, sound cues, particle effects and decals also help. Feedback is important.

>>375889284
In Skyrim you can tell by blood splatter and sound effects if you actually hit or not.

>>375889215
I feel like how upset people get over it is a shitload more than they need to. I'm not a fan of it but in the grand scheme of things, anyone who plays the game can see it's a very minor thing.

>>375889426
Yes, it does, because it completely murders the suspension of disbelief

Inb4
>ITS A FANTASY GAME WITH MAGIC AND SHIT
Literally irrelevant, There has to be grounding in some form of reality. You wouldnt say Morrowind is a good game if everytime you did any action the camera clipped through your head and the world and everything went into wireframes. Its the exact same shit, its jarring, it breaks from the illusion and it ruins the game.

>>375889472
You obviously haven't played morrowind.
It has that too.
They even get knocked back sometimes too

>>375889369
Yeah man, remember all those enemies visibly dodging Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale? Pure laziness on the part of bethesda.

>>375889426
but it is though because he literally just fucking said it

that's what an opinion is retard

>>375889369
/thread

This anon nailed it, there is literally nothing else to talk about.

>>375888913
That's a bad comparison.
It's on the devs for not considering how ridiculous it is that you can land an attack on a target in first person but still miss.

i dont mind missing, i just wish the combat felt more fluid rather than just standing across from one another hitting each other over the head with weapons

>>375889369
So why is Morrowind an entirely bad game because of that one thing but Xcom is still okay?

>>375889369
>going to be 500 posts anyway even though this is right
ignoring the shitposting, this is the explaination

>>375889575
Isometric =/= first person

You have a low IQ

>>375889542
Then make a mage? Literally you can't miss, if your spell hits, it hits. Enchant yourself a 100 sanctuary set and become invincible. Like shit, it is literally only melee characters who have this problem and only early on, once you get your stats up, you literally can't miss.

>>375889545
There's rarely blood until the killing blow.

>>375889673
That Xcom example is rare as fuck. Its annoying when it happens but it almost never happens.

Missing in morrowind is literally the first couple of hours, and even late game you still get it.

>>375889705
>goalposts
Thanks for admitting you were wrong and you agree with me. Here is your last reply.

>>375888913
>Neverwinter nights
I recall characters dodging/parrying attacks when the RNG rolled a miss in that game.

>>375889673
It's even worse in Morrowind because of the first person perspective.

XCOM also flat out tells you the hit probability, so you know what to expect.

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>>375886837
It's because it's first person unlike those other RPGs, and whether or not it's right or not people identify first person games as having a greater degree of control and immersion than third person games.

Sort of how in third person games people will bitch endlessly about clipping, but generally ignore such an issue in a first person game.

>>375889705
>half your screen is covered with dicks
>WELL WHY DONT YOU JUST PUT UP A PIECE OF PAPER AND COVER THE DICKS THEN?
Bethesda could have done something about it and didnt, its their fault period.

>>375889649
Morrowind's combat is dull and shallow as shit. Anyone who thinks the miss animation is the central issue with the combat has not played the game for more than five minutes. I mean, how much can you really give a shit about a thing like that when the combat is so stale and mindless to the point where not having a miss animation doesn't even matter?

>>375889762
>hours, and even late game you still get it.
Maybe if you build your character like a fucking retard.

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ITT: I was too stupid to hit things so they need to change it.

If you've ever played a single RPG before Morrowind, you have no excuse for making a character that can't hit things

>>375889436
Souls games are fucking easy.
It's all just memorize a pattern and then stick to it.

>>375889948
What if they were exclusively JRPGs with pre-determined stats and jobs?

>>375889842
>Moving goalposts
Magic doesn't miss in RPGs, Anon. That's like common knowledge.

>>375888832
Kingdom Hearts?

>>375889948
People can be good at something and still dislike it. I played Morrowind for some 60 hours, made a decent character, and I still think the game isn't all that great.

>>375886837
The combat is definitely unintuitive and wonky at first but once you get used to it, it works alright.

Unrelated but anyone have that image that's a guide for Oblivion loli modding? Figure I'd ask while in a TES thread

>>375890043
What are resists?

>>375889948
Isometric RPGs =/= FP RPGs

Ironically you are proving you have actual autism. not joking. You are unable to empathize with other people or understand how FP and Isometric are different, which is a clear sign of autism.

So real thread time; why is it that Morrowind attracts more autistic people than other games?

>>375890082
Morrwind has its problems. But if you're missing attacks, it's your fault.

Morrowind is one of the few TRUE roleplaying games. If anything I like that theres no animation for an enemy dodging or you missing, as it gives you the opportunity to fill it in yourself.

Early game, youre a fucking scrub nonothing. You use a weapon you bought from the shop, or one you stole from someone else. You then spend an hour learning its a lot harder than your favorite japanese anime to hit things.

Swing!
The mudcrab scuttles to the right and stabs
Swing!
Your attack isnt strong enough and glances off its armor
Swing!
First hit landed, crab is wounded but can keep fighting.

With a little bit of ~*^iMaGiNaTiOn^*~ every fight can be enjoyable, from when youre a newbie fighting shitty crabs to a hardened master fighting literal mortal-gods. If you cant find the enjoyment in it thats your problem not the games.

>>375890096
I don't have the guide but I can tell you the first step is--unless something new has come up which I doubt it has--getting Modular Beautiful People 2ch Edition++ and x117race with it.

>>375886837
I played Morrowind first out of elder scrolls and I played Wizardry and Baldur's Gate long before I tried it. Morrowind fucking sucks, the combat is shit the npcs are boring and lifeless and the main quest is fucking shit, the only good thing is the exploration.

My problem with the game is the slow walking pace and the fact the game freezes for 2 seconds every time the music changes for me.

>>375887892
>or even M&B
You shouldn't list the best one as the "and even" option, Anon. This is coming from a person who has played and enjoyed all of them. M&B has the best combat.

You can tell people who complain about missing didn't play the game for long because it stops being an issue very early on, unless you build your character poorly in which case you're entirely at fault.

>>375890187
>If you cant find the enjoyment in the fact that the developers didn't put in a simple miss animation then you're at fault
lol okay

>>375888443
>abusing i-frames is "good combat"

The souls games are good DESPITE their shit combat system, not because of it.

>>375890170
I wasn't missing too much, even in the early game. It was still annoying when it happened, but it didn't really break the game for me.

I can understand why people get upset over it, though. If they had polished the presentation a bit more, it'd be fine.

>>375890256
>the npcs are boring and lifeless

They are all given the same basic conversational tools so that they seem like actual characters and not just "Hello. Goodbye."

Google how many npcs in balmora have specific text linked to different quests. A lot of the time when you actually have a reason to speak to them, they have something to say.

>>375889915
>The games name is Dick Symphony 4
>Oh man I can't wait to look at vagina!
You shouldn't have been surprised Anon

>>375890271
>the slow walking pace
Quite frankly I think this (and a series of other things) are WAY more worthwhile things to complain about in Morrowind. The fact that the lack of a MISS animation is what the majority of people who don't like Morrowind think is the central issue says a lot.

>>375890341
Im not gonna restate my case. The game is old. Its not inherently a bad thing.

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>That E3 interview where Todd the Rod comments on a Morrowind remake and basically says Oblivion/Skyrim dumbed down the games so hard that they frankly couldn't release Morrowind unless they completely overhauled everything

>>375890464
100 times this. Massive world to explore, at the pace of a snail when sprinting.

dw bro there are mods for that.

>>375888621
what are those extra buildings in y our picture? behind the temple and the hllalu estate?

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>game is unequivocally shit
>still the best in the series
hmmmmmmmmm........

>>375887187

>morrowind
>CANT specialize in every skill at the same time

look at this n'wah

>>375890659
This

TES was never good

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Let's be honest with ourselves here. This isn't an issue of a missing animation, it's an issue of being able to miss.

Even if there was a dodge animation or something of the sort, people would still complain about the fact that they can't hit anything and say the game is bad because of it.
I'm not defending the lack of a miss animation, but ultimately the complaint is about being able to miss, not being unable to tell.

I mean, clearly they can tell when they missed, since they complain about it all the time. I don't know about you but I find it hard to believe that all this anger would be coming from just a lack of an animation that doesn't really stop you from being able to tell you missed the target.

>>375890686
"I cant be an archer mage that swings hammers and daggers, can jump 30 feet in the air make deadly potions craft weapons disappear into the shadows and sweettalk a girl out of her panties? Fuck this game!"

Realistically with a little bit of cleverness when choosing your starting skills you can do most of that in morrowind. Ironic the game that you fight gods is the one you cant just go full superman playing by the rules.

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>>375890557
Also it would have no spears

>>375890659
Then the logical conclusion would be that the other games are worse, yes?
You're not clever.

>>375886978
>but if you miss an attack its usually your fault
It's literally RNG

Isn't there a gif of Final Fantasy 7 where one of Sephiroth's wonderfully extravagant attacks misses? That always made me laugh in game. You shouldn't have a problem with this. It's just a meme

>>375890950
Its fixed number generation. No RPG worth its salt is going to let you land attacks 100% successfully 100% of the time. But unless you make a high elf with primary skills in daggers then try to hit someone with a battle axe. then run around with empty stamina? Missing is going to be a non issue for you

>>375890950
It's RNG where the result is basically always a hit unless you drained all your stamina like a dumbass

>>375886837
It's because it feels extremely unsatisfying and awkward when you mizs since the combat presents itself as action combat despite being dice roll.

>>375890846
It's about suspension of disbelief and game feel. You can change an audience's disposition to game mechanics simply through how you present it in your game. If it looks boring and artificial, people are going to complain, but if you take the time to make it look alright, people aren't going to complain too much.

It's basic game design.

>>375891212
Morrowind's combat would be extremely unsatisfying and awkward even if the animation was there.

>>375886837
Has you can see in this thread, most posters on /v/ are literal crybabies annoyed at any single flaw, making the game trash n their eye even if its just some minor visual queue. It's actually impressive, but I'm sure most of them started with skyrim then played Morrowind and didn't "get it" at all. Hell, just look at the recent discussions about how good fallout 4 is, its sickening, these people dont want to play rpgs.

>>375891404
Most people in this thread were still sucking on mama's tit when Morrowind was released.

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>>375891309
>game feel

>>375891443
probably

>>375891103
I suppose there's kind of a weird difference between player skill and character skill in these things. With more modern RPGs with more action-based gameplay, if your player skill is good enough (aim, placement, whatever) then you can hit 100% of the time without any dice rolls or randomisation. With games like D&D for example, your chance to hit is based on character skill (level, class, STR, DEX, etc) so it's kind of out of your hands in the moment

It's like how I never use VATS in New Vegas. I can just aim and shoot my gun normally and always hit, without having to rely on random numbers.

I think reguardless, purely character-skill based combat feels pretty ass in first person games. Save that stuff for isometric. It feels dumb to swing a sword at an enemy, see it physically hit them, but just be informed by some text at the bottom of the screen that I missed apparently

>>375891309
No, it's not about suspension of disbelief and game feel. It's about being able to miss. Would it be better if there was an animation? Sure. Would it make the game feel better? Of course. But that's not going to stop people who don't understand RPG mechanics from dropping it because they miss too much. Being able to miss is the center of this argument. People arguing that the lack of animation makes the entire game horseshit are just trying to distract from the main point. And quite frankly, it's a lot more believable that all this rage over the game is over being able to miss rather than the lack of an animation. Especially considering missing is only a problem very early in the game. Anyone who played the game longer than that knows there are way worse issues with Morrowind and the lack of a miss animation is a minor gripe.

>>375886837
Because most of present /v/ userbase who bitch about it were born around the release date of morrowind. It's like retarded kids of today using rotary phones and walkmans/record players.

>decide to pirate it
>dated as fuck graphics, but really don't mind since n64 and ps1 was my teenage years
>shit combat, but manageable once you get a decent weapon and some okay armor is in the nearest cave
>oh my fucking god the slowness
>whole time it's like being stuck in slow mode in fo3
>takes forever to get to balmora
>take striders from now on
>bug fucks me up bigtime
>last save was almost an hour ago, in the middle of escorting that bitch to some field
>low hp, go to fighter's guild to rest
>assassin spawned in the bed
>can't rest
>he pops out of the bed and kills me

First time I played an elder scrolls game today, could see how addictive it could get. Downloading some bug fixes and shit from nexus right now.

>>375891654
I guess thats your problem, back in the golden age you had to bring a lot of imagination into games so you didn't look at something like Morrowind and expect a direct emulation of reality. Kids these days have fully simulated worlds around them so imagination really isn't a factor for them.

Also on the topic of player skill v character skill. It was still very present in old school RPGs. the difference being that neither trumped the other. Player skill came into play in terms of builds and itemization. No matteer how high level your character is, poor build choice will still hamper you and its the core issue with kiddies who can't play morrowind.

>>375886837
The very problem is that it's presented as an action RPG the way it is. Why should you miss when your hits are visibly connecting? Why should the arrow you shot right into an enemy's chest just pass right through them?
If it's an action RPG, then why not tie accuracy to the action part of the game, instead of to stats? If it's not an action RPG, then why have the action element to the combat at all?

I appreciate the way most parts of the game works and relies on stats, but I'll never like tying accuracy to stats instead of player control.

>>375892186
>The very problem is that it's presented as an action RPG the way it is
It's not. It's a first person RPG.

>>375886837
>Why is Morrowind the only RPG where there are people who actually think it's a bad game because you can miss?
Because they don't understand that it isnt an action game at all.

If you chose long swords as a major skill and then try to fight a mudcrab with a short sword then you're not going to have a good time.

>>375891872
>back in the golden age you had to use blinders to ignore how fucking awful the games were
it isn't excusable considering how many games there were that came out at the same time or earlier with great combat systems, even RPGs

>>375892247
That's a nice bit of semantics you have there, but it doesn't change the actual point whatsoever.

>>375886837
It's their first time playing a game made before 2010 and so they're not familiar with RPG mechanics.

>>375892186
It's not presented as an action RPG, it's received as one by people who have more experience with action games and RPGs that are only turn-based.

>>375891872
I guess being first person kind of sets up an expectation for actual skill based combat.

Like, I remember first playing it expecting like an open world hexen but with quests and levelling and stuff.
With stuff like Icewind Dale you couldn't really see the specifics going on and it didn't require as much attention during fights so it kind of invited you to fill in the blanks. With
morrowind your whole screen is just a janky axe swinging animation and an enemy.


>>375892186
Really, the RPG stats should be tied to related things, like the bow's draw speed or spread or damage or whatever

>>375892343
What? It's not an action RPG, and was never advertised as such.

>>375892339
Morrowind has a shit combat system but it's definitely not solely because a single animation is missing.

>>375892421
Nigger it doesn't fucking matter what it was advertised as, that's not the point. The point is the complete disconnect between the visual interface that the player uses to communicate with the game and the expected result.

>no visual feedback
Sorry it's just a shit game.

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DUDE WTF I KEEP MISSING AND I CANT EVEN MOUSE LOOK, HOW CAN YOU CALL THIS AN ACTION GAME

>>375892487
That's based on your own expectations because your only experience with the genre is skyrim. Just because you think it should be an action game, doesn't magically make it one.

>>375886837
It's an easy criticism to latch onto when the skyrim-tards realize they have to learn how to play a game.

>>375892598
But Morrowind was my first TES game and I can't think of any action RPG that I played before it.
But I'm sure you'll just respond with "you're lying kid" because that's the easiest way out.

>>375892339
>2002
>These games are awful because they don't hold my hand

Clearly you didn't get to experience what came before these.

What the fuck is with all these people saying it's "presented" as an action RPG? It's not, at all. You just assume it is because it has a first-person camera and real-time combat. RPGs aren't exclusively turn-based and there's no requirement to have a certain type of camera view.

>>375892694
It's still your expectations. And morrowinds not an action RPG.

>>375892694
>I can't think of any action RPG that I played before it
And you never played an action game or a first-person game before that either?

>>375886837
It's how you tell they didn't actually play the game because missing is a literal non-issue.

>>375890868
>Todd
>only 40 Speechcraft

>>375886837
the game doesn't teach you very well how combat works. For instance I had no idea the damage ranges in weapon stats were based on how long you charge the attack, rather than being a random range for damage.

That and it's a goddamn realtime first person game that uses a dice roll system for your attacks. I like the game but it doesn't give the player enough feedback to feel like I'm doing something right.

>>375893207
>doesn't give the player enough feedback to feel like I'm doing something right.
I dunno man, people seem to have a really easy time being able to tell that they're missing.

>>375893207
back in the day you had to read the fucking manual

>>375888564
>isometric in towns and overworld
>first person maze-crawler in interiors and caves
>turn-based

I'd play it.

The game has cool lore and an interesting world but there is no way you can pretend that the combat is actually good.

Yes, you will miss less if you put the right points in the right skills, but that does not make it fun or good.

>>375893351
steam doesn't have a manual

>>375893469
Of course the combat is bad, it's just that so many people don't know what actually makes it bad and drop the game and soon as they realize they can miss.

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>>375893701
>Steam doesn't have a manual
Anon? Have you checked your eyes?

>>375886837
>Why is Morrowind the only RPG where there are people who actually think it's a bad game because you can miss? Do they just not understand that it's an RPG

It doesn't make sense to have a dice roll for deciding if there was a hit or not when you have already manually moved the character within range and also aimed at them using the mouse. It's not an pen and paper. It's not an imaginary space that this is occurring in. You can see the actions on the screen. You can know for sure that you are in range and that you aimed at the enemy. For it to just say "missed" is full retard. The dice roll is necessary in a table top game but in a 3D video game it is just dumb.

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>>375886837
Hit chance is an antiquated mechanic anyways

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>>375893924
In his defense, Steam doesn't teach you very well that they have manuals you can access.

>>375887492
>if you have any experience with older(read;real) RPGs you would quickly understand how the system worked.

The problem is that the dice roll is entirely and completely, utterly obsolete once you make the game 3D. There is no excuse for a *miss* when you yourself controlled the character into range and aimed right on the target.

>>375892801
>And morrowinds not an action RPG.
But it is, at least partly. Otherwise it wouldn't matter at all whether you were moving around in combat, or bothering to face your enemy. You have to be in range of your enemy to hit them, and you need to keep your aim focused on them to hit them. You can dodge attacks by stepping out of the way. Why should hit detection on an attack that "connects" work any differently?

>>375893924
what the fuck this is literally the first time I've noticed that. Thanks anon.

>>375894135
Morrowind's combat is basically standing in front of a nigga and hacking away at him until he dies. Being able to move to his position is never a problem and they're not going to make an effort to get out of the way once you're there. If anything, being able to miss works in its favor.

>>375894160
Is WoW an ARPG?
Is KOTOR an ARPG?
Is DA:O an ARPG?

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>>375894032
>Have to be explicitly taught everything
Why won't it read!

>>375888621
>morrowind rebirth

no.

>>375894373
>at least partly
Now try responding to the actual point.

>>375894542
Your point is that you can move around, position yourself towards your enemy to attack, have to be in range, and you can get out of the way to avoid getting killed. You also bring up "keeping your aim focused" but in the grand scheme of things I doubt someone is going to have trouble not suddenly moving the camera 180 degrees so they're facing the wrong way, especially not in a game where the enemies don't move around much.

Anyway, point being that all these elements, sans MAYBE the aim point, which we can debate at length I'm sure, are element in all the games I just brought up. And those games certainly aren't action RPGs. So clearly these elements do not make a difference as to whether a game is an action RPG or not.

I understand that the whole miss thing is sorta annoying but never found it absolutely immersion breaking.
After a bit you rarely miss.
Also pretty sure that the limitations for the game wouldn't allow for dodge animations, the animations would either be insanely clunky and not really satisfying or cause the game to lag or some shit.
I feel too many people reference this game to modern games, such as the MHfag. It came out in 2002 and was one of a kind back then.
You are in the modern day, if you really don't like the system then install a mod for it it's not that tough.
Literally as if I only bitched about the graphics and compared it to uncharted 4.

>>375894824
>are element in
*present

>>375894897
>if you really don't like the system then install a mod for it it's not that tough.
Huh, maybe the people who continually bitch about it are stuck on consoles.

>>375894824
>Anyway, point being that all these elements, sans MAYBE the aim point, which we can debate at length I'm sure, are element in all the games I just brought up.
They're not, though. WoW and KOTOR are both tab-targeting, there's no positioning, evading, or aiming whatsoever. I haven't played DAO so I can't speak to that, but your first two examples have far less interactivity than Morrowind's combat.
The point, by the way, is still not that Morrowind is an action RPG, and never was. The point, which you keep sidestepping, is that Morrowind's combat system uses action-based elements, but for some reason hit success is exempted. So, once again, why should hit success not be an action element of the game among the other action elements in the same game? Answer the question.

TES games are just sandboxes where you become an omnipotent tankmage and also mod in waifus to fuck. They're not really RPGs.

>>375893998
This is really quite obviously the issue and it's mind boggling how people can't understand it.

>>375895027
>The point, which you keep sidestepping
My bad, I should have mentioned I was not the guy you were arguing with when I brought up those games.

Regardless, there is absolutely positioning and evading in WoW and KOTOR. For example, you want to attack a guy with a melee weapon, you have to get close enough to him to be in-range to hit him. If you're getting your ass kicked, you get the fuck out of the way. How can you say this isn't positioning and evading?

And things like positioning and evading in real-time are not exclusive to action games, so it's a weak argument to use them as a basis for what makes an action game or label them specifically as action-based elements. Unless you use the word "action" literally, but I'm assuming you're not because it wouldn't make sense to in this argument.

>>375888443
>DD
What's DD?

>>375895573
>Regardless, there is absolutely positioning and evading in WoW and KOTOR. For example, you want to attack a guy with a melee weapon, you have to get close enough to him to be in-range to hit him. If you're getting your ass kicked, you get the fuck out of the way. How can you say this isn't positioning and evading?
Your only example is moving into melee range, which is 100% automated in those two games. Now compare that to Morrowind where you need to manually position yourself in melee range (and your range may be greater or shorter depending on your equipped melee weapon), as well as aiming your attacks with the mouse against enemies that often move about. Ranged combat is an entirely different matter, it's 100% automated in WoW and KOTOR, but has to again be manually aimed and fired towards a distant enemy in Morrowind.
You can't backstep or sidestep to avoid an attack in those two games, you're just considered as being in targeted range or not until you're considered as disengaged. Two simple states, and if you're in the engaged state, all attacks will hit you, no matter how visibly far you are. Morrowind is far more flexible as it has actual hit detection, and as such, actual evasion is possible and entirely viable.

So again, Morrowind is far more action-based than those examples in the way the combat system works.

>>375896007
Fair point.

>>375886837
The problem is and always has been accessibility, and appearance.

It has nothing to do with the mechanics themselves, it has everything to do with how they FEEL. The game is played in a first person perspective - when I hit something, I want to feel like I'm hitting something. If I want to play a game where I miss because of dice rolls / stats - I'll play X-Com, Fallout 1/2, or another RPG like that.

>>375896284 (me)
As a supplementary, remember the audience we're dealing with here - modern day fucking children. Everything needs to make sense by their standards.

I fucking love Morrowind, but you also have to acknowledge the facts. You can special snowflake all you want about 'it's not REALLY a first person game' - and you'd be technically correct. But being technically correct doesn't solve the perception issue.

>>375896421
>But being technically correct doesn't solve the perception issue.
True. The best way to solve the perception issue is to play the game for more than five minutes and realize that lacking a miss animation is the least of the game's problems.

>>375891836
>PS1
>Teenage years

Underage detected.

>>375895942
Dragons dogma

>>375896827
That's what I thought. Thanks nigga. I love all those games you mentioned. Good combat.

>>375896990
Wasn't me who listed the games.

>>375896664
Came out in 1995 brah.

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>>375886837
I don't get how you can be annoyed. Yeah, it's a little weird that it's an action game, but nobody spergs out when they miss a sword attack in BG or ID or something. It's not like THAC0 or its equivalents are fantastical math that nobody can grasp.

>>375897294
>but nobody spergs out when they miss a sword attack in BG or ID or something
Morrowind is in first-person so that magically changes things for some reason.

>>375897246
I was finishing my master's when that shitbox came out.
NES or bust.
Best RPGs are still pool of radiance and wizardrys

>>375897384
Okay, just make sure you know what a word means before using it next time.

>>375897294
>Fantastical math
I'm pretty sure it's above the people who complains heads. They don't teach Algebra in 5th grade.

>>375897575
>They don't teach Algebra in 5th grade.
What kind of shit school did you go to?

>>375886837

Honestly I played for a few hours and while I liked making spells and enchantments

And trying out a few of the more broken options

I never really meet an Npc or quest I really cared for

I don't know I mostly just wandered around maybe I missed the great parts

But The later games had people and quest I enjoyed even with less options so I like them more

>>375897756
>Modern day Standards
Don't put me with this new math shit, Algebra isn't taught till 9th now with the new standards.
They are learning Multiplication in 5th grade now.
American schools are shit.

I hate people who act like this is a singificant drawback in the slightest. Yeah, it's weird that you miss when you see your weapon connect. But guess what, you're not going to give a shit about that once you play the game for more than ten minutes and realize the combat has way more (and bigger) issues than missing an animation. Besides, it stops being an issue very early on.

What I'm trying to say is that, yes, it's gay, but you're also a faggot for acting like it's some game-breaking thing because a) you're proving to everyone that you only played the game for ten minutes before deciding it was bad, and b) it doesn't actually make a significant difference.

>>375897881
I'm American and I literally learned Algebra back in seventh grade. Geometry 8th, Algebra 2 in 9th, Pre-Calculus 10th, and AP Calc in 11th, Calc III in 12th.

That's perplexing, honestly.

>>375897805
>I never really meet an Npc or quest I really cared for
>I don't know I mostly just wandered around maybe I missed the great parts
Did you have trouble because there were no quest markers?

The problem is that most people playing this game nowadays dont expect this much dice rolling. I didnt understand why I was missing/dealing zero damage at first.
I think most people would be ok peopley knew about it before they play the game.

>>375897805
>I don't know I mostly just wandered around maybe I missed the great parts

There is your problem.

And the fact you need to actually read what the people say.

>>375898110
Reading is hard.

>>375897965
You were learning NCTM standards and on the AP track. Common Core pushed things 2 years back for public schools. I had similar schooling to you except replace AP Calc with Physics. Essentially, the students might get to pre-calc by 12th grade.

>>375898262
Shit, what the fuck. I had heard about how bad Common Core was, but I didn't realize, "students MIGHT get to pre-calc by 12th grade."
Damn.

factions are done much better than skyrim or oblivion but the rest of the game really falls short in terms of memorable miscellaneous quests and characters

>>375898078
Or maybe people want to actually hit something instead of the computer going >hmmmmmmm looks like you need to miss again famalam
Either have weapon damage scale with the player or just go all out and go play some fucking DND on pen and paper.

>>375900056
>Go play some fucking DnD
Anon, that's why TES was made. To try and be DnD.

>>375900481
Especially considering TES actually was a tabletop RPG that Todd came up with based on DnD.

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How do you even have fun in this game.
I don't mind missing so much since i apparently build my Argonian spearmen right, but the combat is still ridiculously borning. You just stay in one place and click ONE button at enemy until he dies. You don't need to block, dodge and parry enemy moves. You can't bash him. Weapons are weightless.
In Gothic 2 you also had stats and fighing was much more engaging. You had to parry, block and run. While you leveled up your character learned new moves. Shit was fun.
I didn't finished Divinty Original Sin and Icewind Dale even once. I just keep restarting them to try new builds and party compositions. Since you control few characters there is something going on in the fight. You need to aid and support your other characters, place them in good postition, use buffs at them, tank enemies, use different skills etc. In morrowind you are just mashing one button.
And the world is borning to explore since everything is brown and you can't see shit past few meteres anyway because of fog. Everything is lifeless and yous rarely see any animal besides those crabs and bugs. Game is ugly, and Gothic 2 from this same year looks much better. Walking is so slow you can fall asleep. Since running drain stamina, each time you see an enemy you need to stop and wait until it will regenerate which makes everything even slower.
There is no dialouges but a fucking wikipedia and characters are bland. Each time i try to play this i usually drop it after first dwemer ruins. Once i went to some city and had to act on stage. It was the only moment i remember which i actually liked.
The only interesting part of the game is lore, and it's easier to read about it on TES wiki, rather suffer through this game.

>>375901097
Don't try to RP that you are just the best foot soldier, try making spells, enchants, do not be afraid to break the game, it fully intends for things like that to happen. If you want to know you are the walking embodiment of their god so learn everything.

>>375886837
>try to make the game more immersive by having it play in real time as well as from first person perspective
>completely ruin this intent by keeping the shitty pen-and-paper mechanics

Now fuck off.

>>375888410
yeah there wasnt any nuance at all just keep attacking with whatever and you will do fine.

>>375889369
ahahaha the game would be great if i didnt have to think about. just shove it in my face please im to lazy to understand that my attack missed and i need to attack again because the game never showed me that.

>how much hand holding do you need

>>375888932
just blatant shitposting. some cucks know exactly that this game is highly valued by lots of people so they go all out and shitpost to get some attention like a woman.

>le i cant hit meme, do i fit in yet guise xD

i played this game when i was 15 and had no fucking troubles completing the game but some vaping nu-male betas with too tight pants struggle to finish the first dungeon next to seyda neen. so they parrot the same shit they read on a comment at sorcerer daves youtube channel or some other random faggot because they have no clue and were still swimming in their daddys dick when this game released.

>>375901097
literally the same way i feel about morrowind, and the franchise as a whole really
i tried to replay oblivion recently and it was just as fucking boring as morrowind

>>375886837
its because asshats think skyrim is a great rpg.

>wow i clicked the button once and an automatic killcam did all the work for me. im so bad ass. such feedback 10/10.

when they play morrowind

In that my character has stats and they actually are important in the game play. waaaah i don't want to have to figure out how the combat works and how to build a character

>>375888832
not every RPG was complete shit morrowhiner

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I love Morrowind.

But the combat is straight up garbage. Elder Scrolls games have poor combat but Morrowind's combat makes the game borderline unplayable.

Defending it is faggotry.

>>375894135
>The problem is that the dice roll is entirely and completely, utterly obsolete once you make the game 3D.
Where the fuck did you get that idea? Four-directional moevment and rotating your screen is not even 5% of the control needed to simulate the complexities of real time combat.

Furthermore, it bears mentioning since >>375887492 implied otherwise: Arena's the only 2.5D TES game. Daggerfall and Battlespire were both fully 3D in terms of gameplay and controls. Morrowind simply continued in the long tradition of first person realtime RPGs with stat-based evasion mechanics.

>>375888932
That's easy. It's because the only people who play Morrowind today are people going backwards in the series. They have expectations set by Oblivion and Skyrim and when those expectations are not met, they are understandably disappointed. There's a reason nobody complained about missing until 2006. It's about the audience more than anything. It's actually really funny to go back and read reviews and first impressions complaining that Morrowind's combat is too hack-and-slash compared to strategic RPGs; even saying it was too much like Diablo.

>>375904764
I don't think anyone but the most delusional has suggested that Morrowind had great combat. Morrowind like all TES games has really boring combat at best and unbearably clunky at worst.

But when people complain about fucking missing of all things, one of the very few good features of the system, I'll defend it to the death. Especially if they start spouting bullshit about missing having no place in 3D games or real-time games or whatever other arbitrary criteria they pull out of their ass.